England - the winter tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses

[JDizzle]

I'd go - Burns, Jennings, Denly, Root, Pope, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Rashid, Leach, Anderson.

Well, I would never have picked Jennings in the first place, but that is by the by now. Denly has some experience of batting in sub continental conditions which should hopefully stand him in good stead.

I've gone three spinners and two seamers - including Stokes. Assuming we get dust bowls, which I don't know what the rainy season will bring pitch wise in Sri Lanka? Stokes actually has a very impressive record with the ball in Asia, averages below 27 with (more importantly in a two man seam attack) an economy of less than 3. I think he can do a job, especially if we will be opening with a spinner mostly.

I don't think Starc - Stone is a fair comparison at all to be honest. Starc is an elite strike bowler, with a strike rate better than Holding, Garner, Akram amongst others. Stone could come into if they are slightly more seam friendly. I think we can rotate Broad and Anderson in this case with each other.

I really hope Leach goes well and gets his shot. Fingers crossed for the lad.

[LondonTiger]

Until Bairstow was injured I had a pretty clear idea as to who I thought they would pick for T1:

Burns, Jennings, Ali, Root, Bairstow(w), Stokes, Buttler, Rashid, Broad, Leach, Anderson.

Logic being: Desire to make just one change at the top of the order, Ali having played at 3 at the end of the summer, not wanting to have Stokes as one of just two Seamers, and Broad just winning out over Woakes by dint of seniority.


With Bairstow probably out, and the decision to give the gloves to Buttler it would seem thatthere is a choice of bringing in either Denly or Pope. Bringing in Denly would probably mean dropping Ali down the order but do they need his part time spin? Pope could slot in at 5 or 6 which would be much better than his position in the summer but is still unproven at this level (to be fair so are a lot of the team).

[Duty281]

As for the warm up games, I believe there are just two 2 dayers. Even with the limited length, I hope these games are played on a proper XI a side basis rather than subs coming in and out throughout.

As per usual, this will leave England woefully underprepared for the test series.

[LondonTiger]

It looks as though England are playing a squad rather than an 11.


Just noticed n article quoting Root suggesting they will indeed go with just two front line seamers but that Broad is at the back of the queue to partner Anderson in these conditions. Stone does not appear to be getting a bowl in the current warm up game, nor Leach. So far 8 bowlers used in 60 overs.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Appears like it's very much a "give everyone a go" type of warm up - rather than anything serious. One of the pitfalls of shortened tour schedules in the modern game...

Not really sure you can take anything from these type of warm up games tbh

[guildfordbat]

It looks as though England are playing a squad rather than an 11.


Just noticed n article quoting Root suggesting they will indeed go with just two front line seamers but that Broad is at the back of the queue to partner Anderson in these conditions. Stone does not appear to be getting a bowl in the current warm up game, nor Leach. So far 8 bowlers used in 60 overs.

Yeah, cricinfo show an XI man team whilst the BBC list 14 with Jennings, Burns and Pope being the additional 3 players. I would guess the BBC are right and that these 3 may appear at some stage over the 2 days. I can't see that the Beeb would have invented a 14 man squad here. Either way, it certainly looks like Leach and Olly's man Stone aren't involved with this game.

Cricinfo show Buttler as keeping - very strange to apparently play Foakes as just a batsman with more leading contenders seeming to be left out.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It looks as though England are playing a squad rather than an 11.


Just noticed n article quoting Root suggesting they will indeed go with just two front line seamers but that Broad is at the back of the queue to partner Anderson in these conditions. Stone does not appear to be getting a bowl in the current warm up game, nor Leach. So far 8 bowlers used in 60 overs.

Yeah, cricinfo show an XI man team whilst the BBC list 14 with Jennings, Burns and Pope being the additional 3 players. I would guess the BBC are right and that these 3 may appear at some stage over the 2 days. I can't see that the Beeb would have invented a 14 man squad here. Either way, it certainly looks like Leach and Olly's man Stone aren't involved with this game.

Cricinfo show Buttler as keeping - very strange to apparently play Foakes as just a batsman with more leading contenders seeming to be left out.

Reporters at the ground have said Buttler kept first session, Foakes second session and now Pope in the third session Guildford.

[guildfordbat]

Thanks, Olly. You're always on the money!

I can't see the logic of Pope keeping. He is nowhere near the standard of Foakes who has been specially flown out there following Bairstow's injury. Surely the Test place behind the stumps goes to Buttler or Foakes. As they are both in the same (brief) warm up game, let them take turns - but to give Pope a go as well just confuses the issue and denies much needed match practice to whoever will be keeping in the first Test (I would assume Buttler).

[guildfordbat]

Miles in the legs - or whatever term you want to use - for many of England's bowlers today (although not Stokes) is about the best that can be said.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Dean Wilson of the Mirror reporting that it’ll be Foakes for Bairstow straight swap with Foakes taking the gloves. He’s usually fairly reliable, but time will tell

[alfie]

Seems logical. Foakes can bat anyway and it doesn't mess the balance around. we shall see...

[guildfordbat]

Morning Olly and all - Stokes is shown as retired hurt on today's scorecard. Know any details please?

[Gooseberry]

The whole team selection for this warm up is bizzare.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Morning Olly and all - Stokes is shown as retired hurt on today's scorecard. Know any details please?

TMS say he took a blow just above the elbow from a short ball - and is off the field receiving treatment. Initial thinking is it's just bruising and he'll bat again later and they didn't want to take any risks thus retiring hurt early

[guildfordbat]

Thanks, Olly. With England apparently able to call on all the batsmen they want today, there's probably no need for Stokes to resume his innings and he might as well sit it out.

Meanwhile, a half century for Root and an encouraging 47 for Burns before being run out. 25 for Denly and a disappointing 13 for Jennings whose place seems to be based on that he had a place to start with.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Buttler out in the 40's - but seems he may have caused quite a bad injury in doing so. He's apparently creamed a sweep, which has hit short leg directly on the helmet (and been caught off the helmet at leg slip) - but short leg is still down five minutes later receiving treatment....

[James100]

Moeen batting ahead of both Foakes and Pope might suggest something about team selection (but then again might not)

[LondonTiger]

As always with these fixtures, not sure what we learned that we did not already know.

[guildfordbat]

As always with these fixtures, not sure what we learned that we did not already know.

Yes, a bit better than net practice for the players involved, I guess - although not much. 3 figures for Root and 2 for everyone else anyway.

[Gooseberry]

So if this game is indicative of the plans for the test side (and assuming noone could justify picking jennings) it would be something like

Burns
Denly
Root
Pope
Stokes
Buttler
Moeen
Foakes
Woakes
Rashid
Anderson

Which frankly looks pretty toothless. To not play Stone or Leach puts a lote of faith in players who are going to struggle for wickets, and Denly who is very much a part time bowler. Theres endless ways of shuffling the batting order of course but they key thing for me is the bowlers used in this game.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Hi everyone, hope you're all well

Been a while since I posted as I've recently gone through a couple of rather major changes in my personal life (good changes mind ) so it's all been rather busy.

As above, a rather pointless warm-up game in terms of learning much, and as ever these really short tour schedules mean the selectors have to pretty much know their team ahead of time, and give little chance to an outside bolter of forcing their way in. For all that, I think we have maybe picked up a few hints about the selectors thinking.

Leach doesn't seem to be in their plans, while Denly batting at 3 and Moeen down the order suggests that's where we're heading. I find the selection of Denly a little uninspiring if I'm honest: he seems to have been picked for his bowling as much as anything, but not sure how much of a threat that'll be, and I'm unconvinced he's a top 3 batsman at international level. Then again, England aren't really spoiled for choice there, so... Anderson and Broad getting the new ball and the bulk of the seamers overs suggests they might well still be the top two picks. The one that intrigued me more was Pope coming in so far down the order. If Bairstow is out, then I thought Pope would be the natural replacement, but I wonder if instead they're thinking about picking Woakes or Curran as a 3rd seamer and shifting everyone up a spot:
Jennings*
Burns
Denly
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Moeen
Woakes/Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
*I described Denly's selection as "uninspiring", but Jennings's is probably worse TBH. I understand the arguments behind picking him (limit the changes as much as possible, good player of spin), but surely no one thinks he's the answer to England's top order woes?

I see hints that Foakes could play, but Root was fairly categorical that if Bairstow didn't recover they'd give the gloves to Buttler, and surely they're not going to pick Foakes ahead of Pope as a specialist batsman? Even by England's standards of confused thinking, that would be an odd choice.

Anyway, for all the moaning about silly 14 a side warm-ups, this one did what England would have been hoping for. The bowlers all got overs under their belts (albeit not many wickets), and other than Jennings, all the batsmen got decent knocks in.

[guildfordbat]

As for the warm up games, I believe there are just two 2 dayers. Even with the limited length, I hope these games are played on a proper XI a side basis rather than subs coming in and out throughout.

As per usual, this will leave England woefully underprepared for the test series.

Even more so as day 1 of the second and last of these 2 dayer warm ups has been washed out - so wet, the players didn't even travel to the ground! Tomorrow has now been changed to a 50 over per side game although more rain is forecast. You have to sympathise with all the squad and especially Leach and Stone who didn't play in the first warm up. A ridiculous situation.

PS - MfC, a warm welcome back and, reading between the lines, many congratulations!

[alfie]

Agree with mfc (welcome back , by the way !) that the game did what it was designed to do in terms of preparation : sure , it isn't really adequate for a Test Series , but you have to take what you can get in these days of abridged schedules ...
Was going to suggest we are perhaps getting a bit ahead of ourselves in guessing the Test Team from the first warm up as I presumed the second match would see Leach , for example , given a good bowl out...but of course I had overlooked the local weather Seems they'll be lucky to get on the field much , if at all , over the two days allocated. Which is not helpful. And does make it hard for the tour selectors ; who presumably are going to have to to take a bit of a guess themselves as to what the best combination might be.

Mind you ; if this weather continues in similar vein the Test Match itself might be a bit of a damp squib...

[Duty281]

The weather in Galle does look pretty damn miserable for next week.

[LondonTiger]

Denly doing his best to play his way out of the test team. Two ball duck and five very expensive overs. Leach finally having a bowl - figures look tidy.

[Duty281]

So England's 'preparations' for a test series in highly unfamiliar conditions amount to 140 overs with the bat and 140 overs in the field, with all the intensity of a 'soccer aid' match. Pathetic.

Pile on Sri Lanka at 6/4 to win the test series - England have been made laughable favourites for this three-test encounter with some bookmakers.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Well, having said the first warm-up did pretty much what England would have been hoping for, the second was shall we say less useful. Jennings getting a few runs is a positive, but Denly's had, as LT points out, a bit of a mare, and the amount of tap hs bowling's been getting in the warm-ups rather backs up my concerns about his effectiveness come the Tests. I still think he'll play mind you. Pope didn't make a case either, and I'm still unsure if England are going to pick him or another bowler (assuming Bairstow isn't fit).

Looking purely at the figures, Leach did well. Enough to force his way into the reckoning? He could offer some potentially much needed control (otherwise only likely to come from the two main seamers). Broad again took the new ball, and outbowled the other seamers based on the figures, so I fancy him to play still. Worth reading anything into Curran getting a go ahead of Woakes in this one?

I'm still fairly sure England will be looking at Burns, Jennings, Denly, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Moeen, Rashid, Broad and Anderson for 10 of the XI, and if Bairstow is fit he'll take the last spot. If he isn't, it's anyone's guess: England could pick Pope, Leach, or any of Woakes/Curran/Stone, and not sure the warm-ups give any real indication as to their current thinking. Might be a late call from looking at the pitch/weather...

PS  - MfC, a warm welcome back and, reading between the lines, many congratulations!

Cheers guildford. Yup, a tiny (well actually not that tiny...) new person joined the family about 3 1/2 months ago, and I started a new job in September, so things have been as I said busy...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Denly might well of played himself of out a spot today...although as others have said you can't take too much from these games. If he doesn't play, and Bairstow doesn't, could they go;

Burns, Jennings, Ali, Root, Foakes, Stokes, Buttler, Curran, Rashid, Leach, Anderson

Gives them the 6 bowler option they like - and I have a feeling they will give Foakes a game (Bayliss is a huge fan apparently - Smith less so)

[alfie]

If Foakes plays , it is surely as the keeper ? So do they have to stick to this Buttler at seven thing ? Swap those two in the order - or bring Stokes to five (my favoured option) and I quite like your XI , Olly.

I'm not totally convinced three spinners are needed. Two (with the odd extra over from Root) should be enough - if they are up to it. But this is Galle and past experience says the quicks won't have much joy so I'll settle for the 3/3 balance for this game. The neat figures Leach
returned encourages my view that he might be better suited to the pitches here than the other two ; and I'd be concerned if he weren't given the chance to show that- one way or the other.
Curran instead of Broad is a close call : I think Broad would be more effective with the ball but young Sam's batting might carry the day. As I said , this is Galle...Broad will likely get a shot later in the series.

Jennings isn't in my team of the century - or the week , to be honest - but his runs here probably ensure he gets to start the series. He will need runs to stay there...

[guildfordbat]

I can't attach it from here but there's a good summary by Dobell on the options and difficulties of choosing the eleven in his cricinfo write up of the last warm up.

[LondonTiger]

Bairstow confirmed absent from T1.

[JDizzle]

Bairstow confirmed absent from T1.

Bayliss also said they still hadn't decided on whether Buttler or Foakes would keep, as it would affect the rest of side they pick. Seems they have just as much of an idea about the best team as we do!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think they’re probably waiting to see the pitch - it’s continuing to rain excessively in Sri Lanka, so it might not be the raging turner everyone predicted simply because it’s rained so much! Could be a bit more in it for the seamers

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It seems they basically know very little over the questionable decisions

[alfie]

Burns Jennings Moeen Root Stokes Buttler Foakes Curran/Woakes Rashid Leach Anderson . ? Lots of bowling options , batting depth if not quite the quality you'd like to have .

Broad may well play though. Which might mean only two spinners - probably depends on their reading of the pitch. If it is the team I've listed above I'd prefer Curran over Woakes. Think we can discount Denly and Pope and Stone will have to wait.

The weather forecast apparently suggests it may not matter too much who plays as the rain may have the best of it...

[guildfordbat]

Burns Jennings Moeen Root Stokes Buttler Foakes Curran/Woakes Rashid Leach Anderson . ?  Lots of bowling options , batting depth if not quite the quality you'd like to have .

Broad may well play though. Which might mean only two spinners - probably depends on their reading of the pitch.  If it is the team I've listed above I'd prefer Curran over Woakes. Think we can discount Denly and Pope and Stone will have to wait.

The weather forecast apparently suggests it may not matter too much who plays as the rain may have the best of it...

Hi Alfie and all - I was thinking along similar lines to the eleven suggested above although I was favouring Broad over Curran/Woakes. Retains the bowling options along with some more likely control. Admittedly, Broad is a weaker batsman but that shouldn't be the top priority in selecting a bowler and in any case he's not a total mug.

I'm coming more round to the idea of Foakes playing. Bayliss has again stressed the need to take 20 wickets - it shouldn't be overlooked that a good keeper can play a part in obtaining some of them. Foakes is a quality glove man, even though I believe he's at his very best keeping to speedsters rather than spinners. He's also a more than decent batsman who averages above 40 in Championship cricket and regularly bats at 5 for Surrey (that was usually one spot before Pope last season to put it into some context).

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

As Alfie points out, it's all likely to be pretty moot who is picked - because it's meant to rain heavily for every single day of the test...

[guildfordbat]

As Alfie points out, it's all likely to be pretty moot who is picked - because it's meant to rain heavily for every single day of the test...

Olly - I assume though you'll still be up at 4 to give us full details.

[robbo277]

Denly might well of played himself of out a spot today...although as others have said you can't take too much from these games. If he doesn't play, and Bairstow doesn't, could they go;

Burns, Jennings, Ali, Root, Foakes, Stokes, Buttler, Curran, Rashid, Leach, Anderson

Gives them the 6 bowler option they like - and I have a feeling they will give Foakes a game (Bayliss is a huge fan apparently - Smith less so)

This is quite similar to how I'd line up, although is Foakes a good enough 5? I must say I don't know much about him, so would have to defer to others' judgement.

I'd be half tempted to stack the batting for this test. Possibly get Denly in there for Ali or one of the other spinners and move Ali down the order. Our batsman are likely to be underdone going into it, Hearth is playing his last test and there's quite a bit of bad weather about, no lights etc. I'd be worried about us getting rolled twice and losing a game within 200 overs, which might be the limit of the play. If we pack our batting line-up, tell them to just bat long and not really worry about the match, the most likely result would be a draw and we can set ourselves up for the next two tests.

[LondonTiger]

It seems to be accepted amongst the journos that 3 spinners will play. Then much depends on who bats at 3. Should it be Denly there is no real room for Foakes, should it be Moeen and the Foakes is a real contender.

The lineup I have seen most often is:

Jennings, Burns, Ali, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Foakes(w), Curran, Rashid, Leach, Anderson.


I feel that Buttler keeping to a lot of spin to be a major risk (Bairstow has worked so hard at thes part of his gamme to become very competent) so can see the above lineup happening, with the major decision between Curran and Woakes, with Broad seemingly an outsider.

[Gooseberry]

It seems to be accepted amongst the journos that 3 spinners will play. Then much depends on who bats at 3. Should it be Denly there is no real room for Foakes, should it be Moeen and the Foakes is a real contender.

The lineup I have seen most often is:

Jennings, Burns, Ali, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Foakes(w), Curran, Rashid, Leach, Anderson.


I feel that Buttler keeping to a lot of spin to be a major risk (Bairstow has worked so hard at thes part of his gamme to become very competent) so can see the above lineup happening, with the major decision between Curran and Woakes, with Broad seemingly an outsider.

Sam Currans taken 1/110 so far on the tour mostly bowling against part time players... his brothers taken 6 wickets and shown he can work as a strike bowler (albeit in 50 overs cricket) at international level. All the talk of seeking genuine pace bowlers for dukes ball cricket is junk if they continue to favour medium pacers like Sam for tests. All he brings is the left arm option, theres a hell of a lot of faith in Anderson and the spinners to do any wicket taking. The positive there being that if they do go with those 3 spinners its the most attacking and varied option England have had in that department for as long as I can remember. For once spin might not be a weakness.
The batting though is a concern, with bairstow out theres one proven test class batsman in the team, and 3 non specialists in the top 6. Jennings has been pretty awful for a long time. Sam Currans inclusion makes more sense in this context, but hes not as good a batsman as Woakes whos also bowled OK on the tour so far and actually taken some wickets.
I dont have an issue with Foakes getting the gloves, it seems very sensible...and Buttler does deserve a spot ahead of the reserve specialist bats base don his summer heroics (and lack of quality in reserve).

Its just as well that Sri Lanka are rubbish

[guildfordbat]

...

Its just as well that Sri Lanka are rubbish

Goose - hoping you have more to complain about over the next five days than just the weather!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

As Alfie points out, it's all likely to be pretty moot who is picked - because it's meant to rain heavily for every single day of the test...

Olly - I assume though you'll still be up at 4 to give us full details.

I am telling myself it is a terrible idea because it'll be wet, but I full well know my alarm will be set for 3:59 just in case its not...

[Duty281]

A draw is the odds-on option for this test. Going to be a wash-out.

[Gooseberry]

Crumbs yeah it really is a woeful forecast isnt it!
Looking long range the second test is set to be largely dry at least

[Gooseberry]

No shocks ....
1 Rory Burns, 2 Keaton Jennings, 3 Moeen Ali, 4 Joe Root (capt.), 5 Ben Stokes, 6 Jos Buttler, 7 Ben Foakes (wk), 8 Sam Curran, 9 Adil Rashid, 10 Jack Leach, 11 James Anderson

Jennings gets a place on default, Denly who was called up off the back of some good domestic short form performances (and initially left out of the limited overs squad) unsurprisingly struggled just as much as Jennings. Meanwhile Gubbins who they spent half the summer banging on about and gave all the lions chances to stays home.
Bayliss spent half of september talking about how tempted he was to give Buttler the gloves so obviously Foakes comes in ( for the record I think this is a good call but...)
Moeen who was dropped altogether, then did well as a bowler and badly at 3 continues there.
The two slowest seamers get picked despite england spending the last 6 months talking about wanting to find some genuine pace for away tests and bringing some on tour.

I don't know why people say the selections and direction of the team is confused.

(But yes all a bit moot as it stands)

Roots comment at the start of the game that Anderson and Broad were fighting for the same spot essentially says that either he deems Curran the automatic first choice seamer or that he has so little faith in the batting that the bowling ability of the second seamer was a secondary consideration to their batting. (obviously the latter)
Again not that I think this is a bad piece of pragmatism, you have to recognise Englands weaknesses. And assuming this test did get enough overs for a result England would always be looking at the spinners to do the job, and at least they have the right options to take wickets there.

It does look like theres going to be more play today than predicted yesterday so not an entire waste for anyone who has set an alarm.

[alfie]

Team as expected. Toss won - which ought to help.

Burns had a confident start ...but an all too brief innings . Not as brief as Moeen

10/2 not exactly the start young Joe was hoping to walk in at...

[alfie]

Was a good delivery that cleaned up Moeen first ball ; but that failure will only add to doubts over the wisdom of batting him so high in the order. If they wish to play three spinners I guess he almost has to bat there ; but it certainly isn't a long term option.
Saw a suggestion the other day that Stokes might be a possible three. Seems a bit high to me but I guess if he is not expected to bowl too much here it could be worth a try.

Root and Jennings fighting back quite positively ...not missing a chance to score. 45/2

[alfie]

Rather a tame end for Root...dancing down to Herath , missing and bowled...
He will be annoyed after building a handy partnership with Jennings - while Sri Lanka carelessly burn both referrals and drop a straightforward catch.
Game rattling along with a run rate over four despite three wickets falling. Stokes looks like he wants to get on with it too...

[KP_fan]

My Money is on England for this test ( and there is a healthy return of almost 3 times)

They won the toss & hence lanka will have to bat 4th......and that's a third of battle won.
That they have players who can bat down to No.9....3 spinners.....3 seamers.....batting formula almost right
Shame Bairstow is injured...that takes 10% strength out
I would have played Wokaes for Anderson....further strengthening the batting...and on these pitches the difference between the two as bowlers would not be substantial

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