England - the winter tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses

[LondonTiger]

So many chances dropped by England today.

[guildfordbat]

Yeah Leach has bowled well in this game Guildford - he's playing his role very well and justifying his slot as the third spinner.

Now the first minor blemish for Foakes - a very very tough inside edge off Anderson didn't stick. Mathews gets another life.

Anderson just got a bit of inswing movement in that over - something to keep an eye on

Fair comment. Foakes did very well to adjust and dive to his left to one-handedly prevent the ball speeding to the boundary but having done so he'll be disappointed not to have hung onto it.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rashid gets one to just miss the off stump - so close even umpire Erasmus "ooo'd"! Mathews certainly seems to have luck on his side today

[guildfordbat]

Tea with Sri Lanka 190/5.

A shame we couldn't get one more but a couple in the session was still fine for me. Both wickets for Leach who impressed as did the luckless Stokes.

Unless it rains, England getting closer and closer to a 1-0 lead.

[alfie]

Few chances gone down today (been a problem for England lately - though not in the first innings here ) but they've still got Sri Lanka five down before tea so they'll be feeling pretty happy with the situation.
Sri Lanka showing some fight but like all teams these days they are finding it hard to just bat time when faced with a huge task like this...a man bats for a while then can't resist a big shot...
One more wicket and it would be into the tail and a chance to finish things today.

As to team selection I will leave it until the game is over. Though I'd note that the recent (poor) Bairstow stats are a little misleading : he got injured in the third match against India ; arguably should not have played the third - and the string of low scores we see are largely a result of those circumstances. Prior to that he'd been batting quite well , despite being messed around in the order for the ironic reason that people claimed he was too good to be "wasted at seven". The team should be selected each game by what is the best combination to win the game...and that will vary.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen strikes first ball after a break again! Dickwella with a poor prod and Stokes takes a sharp catch at slip. England now have a real chance to wrap this up today

[alfie]

Tea break does the trick...and a fine catch from Stokes

Moeen might have had a wretched match with the bat but his bowling has been very successful.

And the black crow that flew across my screen as the catch was taken looks an omen for Sri Lanka's chances of batting out the day...

[guildfordbat]

First ball after tea and Dickwella gone immediately! Edged to Stokes off England's luxury player who takes his second wicket of the innings and sixth of the match.

[alfie]

And Mo adds Matthews to his bag...

Not long now.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Just like to add how great a name Dickwella is

[guildfordbat]

Just like to add how great a name Dickwella is

Back in the day, New Zealand had a bowler called Bob Cunis. His surname prompted John Arlott to comment, ''Cunis, a funny sort of name, neither one thing nor the other.''

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

At the stage now where there is almost too much turn - Rashid regularly beating the edge and Moeen getting a lot of bounce and turn too.

As Rashid now goes down in his delivery stride rather amusingly!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Just like to add how great a name Dickwella is

Back in the day, New Zealand had a bowler called Bob Cunis. His surname prompted John Arlott to comment, ''Cunis, a funny sort of name, neither one thing nor the other.''

got an actual LOL out loud (as the Culture Cup gentlemen might say) from me

[alfie]

Rashid gets a fair bit of turn ; but still too many poor deliveries in this spell. Suppose Moeen is sending down some loose stuff now too...fingers getting tired ?
New ball soon ...but who needs it ? Moeen finds the edge and Akila departs ...four for Mo

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Is that 8 wickets for Mo? Nathaniel, how are you?

[alfie]

If We are picking a side full of specialists instead of bits and pieces all rounders then the only spinner would be Jack Leach. Moeen is no more than a luxury player. Wild slogger with the bat and not consistent with the ball. Given a decent chance Leach could easily be as good as Panesar was.

Handy sort of "luxury".

Leach looks a good bowler - how good we will see as his career progresses. But to dismiss Moeen as crudely as this looks sillier with every wicket he takes...not the first time he has done the job for England.

[guildfordbat]

Rashid gets a fair bit of turn ; but still too many poor deliveries in this spell. Suppose Moeen is sending down some loose stuff now too...fingers getting tired ?
New ball soon ...but who needs it ? Moeen finds the edge and Akila departs ...four for Mo

And on to 153 Test wickets level with the late great and cruelly denied 606 Hall of Famer Fred Titmus.

[guildfordbat]

If We are picking a side full of specialists instead of bits and pieces all rounders then the only spinner would be Jack Leach. Moeen is no more than a luxury player. Wild slogger with the bat and not consistent with the ball. Given a decent chance Leach could easily be as good as Panesar was.

Handy sort of "luxury".

Leach looks a good bowler - how good we will see as his career progresses.  But to dismiss Moeen as crudely as this looks sillier with every wicket he takes...not the first time he has done the job for England.

Nor the first time Nathaniel has made crude and silly comments.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Much deserved wicket for Rashid - classic leg spinners dismissal, gets Perera caught driving at first slip. England one away now!

[alfie]

And Rashid in on the act now...nine down and Herath comes in for his last innings to well deserved ovation.

...but out first ball ? Not sure he's hit that...review...nah , reprieved !

[alfie]

Very tight...but a run out ends it all !

Great win for England at a ground they have always found a problem

Not the end Herath wanted but he's had a fine career

Open the bar

[guildfordbat]

Very tight...but a run out ends it all !

Great win for England at a ground they have always found a problem

Not the end Herath wanted but he's had a fine career

Open the bar

Good team man that he is, the Corporal will be onto this - don't worry!

After the opening session of the match, a very good performance from England. Thought Root handled the bowlers well today. Foakes my MotM by some way - as well as very fine keeping, his approach and century in our first innings was crucial to how we turned things around and gained control.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Jennings for me, and Mo has a shout

[guildfordbat]

Jennings for me, and Mo has a shout

They follow my recommendation and give it to Foakes.

Jennings did himself (and us) a lot of good in this Test but first innings runs are so important.

[VTR]

An excellent and commanding win from the first session onwards. But remember the old adage "England always start well in Asia". Well not so old as I've just made it up, but the last four visits to Asia they have done well in the opening Test each time

[Gooseberry]

Not a bad result for a test that was predicted a wash out...still a day to spare!

A coupleof batsmen really stood up in this game against the odds, but its the spinners who have really stepped up.
The combination of Leach, Moeen with his head in the right place, and Rashid is way beyond what last toured Asia and really the first time theyve had 3 spinners that look like proper test bowlers I can remember. AS KPF pointed out earlier the combination is important too, its not just 3 orthdox offspinners.

[alfie]

I'd agree with Foakes for MoTM , though both the others mentioned had claims. That century turned a decent recovery, as it would have been had he , say , gone for fifty or so , into an actual par score on a ground where first innings scores tend to be important...
A lot more went into this win - ultimately a fine team effort - but his innings basically set things up for the final result.

Sri Lanka have all the problems now , it seems : the captain limping around , Herath retiring and Dananjaya all but unselectable after a horror match...but we know this England team can be liable to implosions whenever they appear to have the momentum...so I take nothing for granted.

They will probably tend towards keeping the winning side together ; but they'll be examining the pitch first. It may or may not call for a full hand of spinners ; and they certainly have options. The one real weakness right now is the perennial issue of the a number 3... Which really isn't Moeen. Stokes ?

[Gooseberry]

I'd agree with Foakes for MoTM , though both the others mentioned had claims. That century turned a decent recovery, as it would have been had he , say , gone for fifty or so , into an actual par score on a ground where first innings scores tend to be important...
A lot more went into this win - ultimately a fine team effort - but his innings basically set things up for the final result.

Sri Lanka have all the problems now , it seems : the captain limping around , Herath retiring and Dananjaya all but unselectable after a horror match...but we know this England team can be liable to implosions whenever they appear to have the momentum...so I take nothing for granted.

They will probably tend towards keeping the winning side together ; but they'll be examining the pitch first. It may or may not call for a full hand of spinners ; and they certainly have options. The one real weakness right now is the perennial issue of the a number 3... Which really isn't Moeen.  Stokes ?

If they foolishly felt they didnt want 3 proper spinners then Denly is the option at 3, allowing Moeen to move down with Rashid or Leach dropped and still having that extra bit of change bowling. I dont have much faith in him as a batsman though.
3 seamers was one more than they needed on this pitch, 4 is just never going to be required in Sri Lanka when they have effective wicket taking spinners.
Theres also been a vague mutter of Bairstow in at 3, but again replacing who? Maybe if its another spinners paradise they could drop an all rounder but as was noted above Bairstow has struggled for test form and struggled when pushed up the order in his career.

Maybe they just have to get by with Moeen at 3 or Root go back there again. At least both openers managed the rare feet of staying in more than 5 overs last innings.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Echo other comments on the win and performance - a great team effort, and I must say I thought Root captained very well.

For the next test - unless the wicket is drastically in favour of either spin or seam, I would keep the same side. If it's really seamer friendly, I'd consider bringing in Woakes for Rashid (only because I think finger spin is more effective than leggies in Asia) - if its really spin friendly, you could make a case for Denly for Curran (moving Denly upto 3 and Moeen down to 8).

But I think this XI have earnt a chance to backup their performance in this test in Pallekele. Harsh on Bairstow, but for me, his recent form (he averaged 34 in 2017, and only 26 so far in 2018) means he isn't an automatic selection - and Foakes really stepped up and took his chance here.

As Alfie points out - Sri Lanka have a lot of issues heading into the next test. Obviously losing Herath is a blow, and looks like Chandimal may struggle to be fit. So that's two changes, before you even begin to look at underperforming players! I wonder if they might try to fit in a proper 5th bowling option with Herath going out of the side?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Also on the Moeen debate - he's probably not a number 3, but he now has become one of 4 (I believe) players for England to score over 2,500 test runs and take over 150 wickets.

England players to have scored 2,500+ runs and taken 150+ wickets in Test cricket

• Ian Botham (5,200+383) in 102 matches

• Andrew Flintoff (3,845+226) in 79 matches

• Stuart Broad (3,063+433) in 123 matches

• Moeen Ali (2,617+150*) in 53 matches

Not bad for a "luxury wild slogger average spinner"

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Very tight...but a run out ends it all !

Great win for England at a ground they have always found a problem

Not the end Herath wanted but he's had a fine career

Open the bar

Good team man that he is, the Corporal will be onto this - don't worry!

After the opening session of the match, a very good performance from England. Thought Root handled the bowlers well today. Foakes my MotM by some way - as well as very fine keeping, his approach and century in our first innings was crucial to how we turned things around and gained control.

Guildford - not sure whether it's technically feasible to open the bar when it's already been cleaned out! But the "spirit" is willing!

Cracking debut by Foakes, and plenty of other peformances to admire. Like others I can't see how Bairstow gets back in the team straight away - but there's no rush.

[VTR]

Only way to fit Bairstow in that I can see is to drop Burns and bump someone else up to open (Root? Moeen? Bairstow himself?). I'm not saying this is the right thing or will happen, but I can't see any other option that wouldn't actually make the team significantly worse

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

I was expecting the Moeen Ali fan club to rear their heads after a one of performance, what should be regarded as a fluke performance. Moeen averages 24 with the bat and 48 with the ball in overseas matches. This is over 23 matches, so a sustained period where he's been a liability to England and one of the reasons we've lost so many away matches/series.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Only way to fit Bairstow in that I can see is to drop Burns and bump someone else up to open (Root? Moeen? Bairstow himself?). I'm not saying this is the right thing or will happen, but I can't see any other option that wouldn't actually make the team significantly worse

I would open with Jennings and Bairstow so that it breaks up the 3 left-handers at 1-3

[guildfordbat]

Some interesting selections for the next Test from Sky pundits.  They were clearly badgered into doing so with the basis (however unlikely) being conditions are the same as at Galle.

Trescothick and Key both recalled Bairstow. To make way, Burns was left out by Tres and Curran by Key. I followed Key's logic better without agreeing - Curran only bowled 11 overs and, whilst he made 48, Key would normally back Bairstow to score more. [My own view is that it's important to take into account the option and value of having Curran (although I would have gone for Broad before) available to bowl, rather than just how many overs he sent down.]

Tres just seemed to regard Bairstow as a better and more proven bat than Burns plus a recognised opener wasn't seen as essential in Sri Lanka. This view was shared a little later in 'The Cricket Debate'* on Sky by Willis although he made a meal of trying to explain it. My man Stewart seemed happy with the same side (as for the first Test) although he saw Rashid as the one to make way if the track means we want to bring in an extra seamer / quick.

All were adamant that Foakes should maintain his place and the gloves. Willis referred to Bairstow as now being solely a batsman and ''a former allrounder''.

* For those with Sky, I recommend recording the programme - it's due to be repeated at 3.45 (!) on Saturday morning. My man Stewart spoke his usual good sense with some bits of lovely humour thrown in along the way. When Colvile referred to the selectors having overlooked for so long how good Foakes is, Stewie added - ''It's not as if they haven't been told!''.  Olly - you would lap this up.

[guildfordbat]

I was expecting the Moeen Ali fan club to rear their heads after a one of performance, what should be regarded as a fluke performance. Moeen averages 24 with the bat and 48 with the ball in overseas matches. This is over 23 matches, so a sustained period where he's been a liability to England and one of the reasons we've lost so many away matches/series.

Nathaniel - of all players available to England (whether in the current squad or not), what is your preferred eleven?

[LondonTiger]

Only way to fit Bairstow in that I can see is to drop Burns and bump someone else up to open (Root? Moeen? Bairstow himself?). I'm not saying this is the right thing or will happen, but I can't see any other option that wouldn't actually make the team significantly worse

I would open with Jennings and  Bairstow so that it breaks up the 3 left-handers at 1-3

Back in the summer, around then end of T2 against India (when he was the leading run scorer in that series, had been scoring runs for fun in ODIs and you were slamming him as a slogger who should be dropled) I may have agreed it was a risk worth taking. Since his injury, monumental sulk at losing the gloves for one week and realisation his changes in technique to facilitate ODI scoring, I cannot now agree.

Purely because of the conditions, I would consider moving everyone up the order by one place, and Moeen down to 7, and defer looking for a long term top 3 till we get to WI in springtime.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Only way to fit Bairstow in that I can see is to drop Burns and bump someone else up to open (Root? Moeen? Bairstow himself?). I'm not saying this is the right thing or will happen, but I can't see any other option that wouldn't actually make the team significantly worse

I would open with Jennings and  Bairstow so that it breaks up the 3 left-handers at 1-3

Back in the summer, around then end of T2 against India (when he was the leading run scorer in that series, had been scoring runs for fun in ODIs and you were slamming him as a slogger who should be dropled) I may have agreed it was a risk worth taking. Since his injury, monumental sulk at losing the gloves for one week and realisation his changes in technique to facilitate ODI scoring, I cannot now agree.

Purely because of the conditions, I would consider moving everyone up the order by one place, and Moeen down to 7, and defer looking for a long term top 3 till we get to WI in springtime.

There's been aggressive openers players do well in Asia (aggressive/slogger whichever you prefer) - Sehwag, Jayasuriya, Dhawan etc. Bairstow's recent woes have been against swing/seam, with SL trailing I'm fully expecting very dry pitches for the remaining two matches, Bairstow can go out and score freely as an opener in these conditions. Is he a long term opener? No but he can do the job in this series.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

I was expecting the Moeen Ali fan club to rear their heads after a one of performance, what should be regarded as a fluke performance. Moeen averages 24 with the bat and 48 with the ball in overseas matches. This is over 23 matches, so a sustained period where he's been a liability to England and one of the reasons we've lost so many away matches/series.

Nathaniel - of all players available to England (whether in the current squad or not), what is your preferred eleven?

I'm not in the business of selecting players from outside of the named touring party, but Dominic Bess would've been my second spinner. Leach first choice and Moeen the 'spinner/all rounder'

My side for the second test would've been:

Jennings
Bairstow
Root (c)
Stokes
Buttler
Moeen
Foakes (w/k)
Bess
Stone/Denly
Leach
Anderson

I felt this match would've been a face off between Jennings/Burns as Bairstow by general consensus is the second best batsman after Root. If the pitches are very dry there's recent history of quicks like Steyn/Starc causing havoc with reverse swing. But if you want to be more conservative you slot Denly at 3 everyone else goes down one.

Rashid is no more than a project player, I think he's in the Test side to keep him motivated/confident in the run up to the WC. As we've seen with Hales, his career has stalled since he ditched red ball cricket. But that doesn't mean Rashid should get a free ride in the test side over more talented Bess, whom I think is a 100 cap player.

[SimonofSurrey]

Just like to add how great a name Dickwella is

Back in the day, New Zealand had a bowler called Bob Cunis. His surname prompted John Arlott to comment, ''Cunis, a funny sort of name, neither one thing nor the other.''

got an actual LOL out loud (as the Culture Cup gentlemen might say) from me

And what made this comment all the funnier (and unbelievably rude for the era) was that the first syllable of 'Cunis' rhymed with 'bun' - not 'hewn'.

PS: drop Burns after one Test where he got himself out twice, once very unluckily and once very stupidly?? If you're going to drop anyone on the basis of his First Test batting in order to bring back Bairstow it surely has to be a straight swap at No 4!!

[guildfordbat]

Thanks for sharing your side with us, Nathaniel.

Surprised there's a place for Moeen in view of your earlier comments.

One of the things I liked in the side for the first Test was the mix of our spinners - left arm Leach, off spin Moeen, leg spin Rashid. Admittedly, quality needs to be there as well and I'm still not convinced on that score by Rashid. However, having Bess as a second off spinner alongside Moeen seems a bit too samey.

[Gooseberry]

Rashid had a bad game but hes got as much ability/talent as Moeen. He massively outperfomed him on the last Asia tour.

The balance of the 3 is a big plus for England and something theyve lacked in the past. No more picking Patel or Ansari for variation regardless of whether they are capable of playing cricket or not.

I cant help feeling that Currans inclusion ahead of Woakes is also partly down to giving variation to the attack. The seamers too have suffered in the past from all being much of a muchness.

This squad is blessed with players who can fill multiple roles and a truely balanced attack in a way we havent really seen before for England.
Theres still glaring issues with the batting despite Jennings relieving the pressure on himself but that can be carried against such a poor Sri Lankan side.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Thanks for sharing your side with us, Nathaniel.

Surprised there's a place for Moeen in view of your earlier comments.

One of the things I liked in the side for the first Test was the mix of our spinners - left arm Leach, off spin Moeen, leg spin Rashid. Admittedly, quality needs to be there as well and I'm still not convinced on that score by Rashid. However, having Bess as a second off spinner alongside Moeen seems a bit too samey.

I think in SL you need at least 3 spinners, India and the UAE two quality spinners is usually enough.
I think Bess and Moeen are vastly different off spinners, Moeen bowls a bit like Lyon outside off with sharp turn, whereas Bess attacks the stumps more - undercuts the ball a bit a little like Ashwin. With regards to Moeen's selection, he's not amazing but he's vastly better than Rashid .Wrist spinners don't usually factor much in SL, Sandakan don't have great record.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think it’s a little harsh to say Rashid played badly here Goose - bowled nicely first innings in particular breaking a dangerous looking Chandimal/Mathews partnership when SL looked like they were getting back in the game, and a very useful cameo with the bat first innings too. Bowled the worst of the spinners in the second innings yes, but still bowled ok.

I echo guildfords comments on our spinners here - think they work nicely as a three, and I really liked how Root used them all too.

[guildfordbat]

Think it’s a little harsh to say Rashid played badly here Goose - bowled nicely first innings in particular breaking a dangerous looking Chandimal/Mathews partnership when SL looked like they were getting back in the game, and a very useful cameo with the bat first innings too. Bowled the worst of the spinners in the second innings yes, but still bowled ok.

I echo guildfords comments on our spinners here - think they work nicely as a three, and I really liked how Root used them all too.

Just to add about the three different types of spin bowling - this was another challenge for Foakes which he met admirably. At Surrey the considerable majority of his keeping to spinners has been to the off spin of Batty and Virdi with much less less of the leg spin and left arm variety.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Guildford - your poetic soul might enjoy what I think is a cracking article:
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/nov/10/we-will-remember-sport-sacrifice-colin-blythe-passchendaele-first-world-war-cricket#click=https://t.co/rX1NpXJPtT

I’ve very much calmed on “Poppy Day” due to the militant nature of others, but this is a quite lovely reminder of its better basis of meaning, with cricketing context.

[guildfordbat]

Guildford - your poetic soul might enjoy what I think is a cracking article:
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/nov/10/we-will-remember-sport-sacrifice-colin-blythe-passchendaele-first-world-war-cricket#click=https://t.co/rX1NpXJPtT

I’ve very much calmed on “Poppy Day” due to the militant nature of others, but this is a quite lovely reminder of its better basis of meaning, with cricketing context.

Dolph - I'm not sure about my poetic soul, the Corporal will tell you that it's far from shown when I'm shouting for someone to be shot for walking in front of the sightscreen! Nonetheless, it's a kind comment and thanks for the thoughtful article.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Bayliss confirmed that Moeen won't be batting at 3 in the next match

[Gooseberry]

The interview i saw only had him suggesting moving Moeen down and bring Bairstow in ...although the very mention of it publically would usually equate to a done deal we ahve seen a lot on inconsitency between what Bayliss says one day and what happens the next this year. It might partly be down to politics within the leadership team and differences of opinion.
Either way I dont think anyone could argue thst Moeen at 3 is looking viable long or short term term, or that keeping things as they are regardless would be a genuinely bad idea whe the side just won comfortably and theres no obvious way to accomadate those changes without risking breaking what did work.
And that includes Moeens fragile ego.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bayliss said if england had ended up bowling first that likely Buttler would’ve batted three (if Moeen had bowled say 30+ overs). Interesting. Quite like that they’re flexible like that personally

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