England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

I guess Moon is there to do a job and perhaps shows we're looking to focus more on our scrums then before, they've been pretty disappointing over the last year or so.

I think when obano and genge are back we have 2 young guys who would have been pushing Marler and Vunipola anyway. With them out we do look.vulnerable. moon has his chance though and is a good player especially as you say in his bread and butter of the scrum.

He's a 'shouldnt let us down' selection for sure

Also the training there doing according to Jones:

"a particularly physical affair with nobody holding back".

Hope the guys have good insurance!

yappysnap wrote:Also the training there doing according to Jones:

"a particularly physical affair with nobody holding back".

Hope the guys have good insurance!

Hopefully everyone has learnt from the Sam Jones affair re insurance cover.

Marler is stepping down from International rugby....

propdavid_london wrote:Marler is stepping down from International rugby....

As discussed on the previous page

Oops - cheers

Mind you, I feel that there is more to come out about the story.

LondonTiger wrote:Mind you, I feel that there is more to come out about the story.

Most of us are probably dying to know more, but, to be honest, we aren't owed any more explanation, especially if it's a personal matter.

Always been a fan of Marler, so disappointed to see him leave in playing terms. Can only echo everyone else in hoping that all is well personally for him

I'll miss Marler, if Props can swashbuckle he was likely the most swashbuckling Prop I know of.

Hell of a character (and a canny prop).

Enjoy your time with the bairns - it IS a precious time which you can never get back once it passes.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Mind you, I feel that there is more to come out about the story.

Most of us are probably dying to know more, but, to be honest, we aren't owed any more explanation, especially if it's a personal matter.

Not saying we are owed any further explanation. Using the well worn line of "wanting to spend more time with his family" does encourage people to read between the lines.

Firstly I hope that this is not a case similar to the Youngs family, and that his family a well.

To step away from the team this close to the world cup does suggest there is a serious issue and it feels like a matter of mental health and wellbeing. Whether the conditions and environment created by Eddie Jones contributed to this we will perhaps only know if Marler produces an autobiography one day. He is a complicated lad, who thinks deeply about things and more than likely is no where near as confident as his outward persona.

I wish him all the best in his future endeavours.

I'd echo GF's thoughts on Jonny Williams.

The lad is quick, strong and has an excellent offload in the tackle ala SBW. He needs to nail the Falcons jersey down first but he certainly has the skill set. Give him 6 months or so and he could be in with a real shout.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd echo GF's thoughts on Jonny Williams.

The lad is quick, strong and has an excellent offload in the tackle ala SBW. He needs to nail the Falcons jersey down first but he certainly has the skill set. Give him 6 months or so and he could be in with a real shout.

He looked good at U20 level, but injuries have held him back. As you say with just two starts for Falcons in the premiership, he needs to stay fit and healthy and nail that 12 shirt down for you guys. With just 12 months to go he is very much a longshot - but then at an equivalent time 8 years ago Manu had (other than a "friendly" with SA) yet to start a first team game for Leicester.

LondonTiger wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Mind you, I feel that there is more to come out about the story.

Most of us are probably dying to know more, but, to be honest, we aren't owed any more explanation, especially if it's a personal matter.

Not saying we are owed any further explanation. Using the well worn line of "wanting to spend more time with his family" does encourage people to read between the lines.

Firstly I hope that this is not a case similar to the Youngs family, and that his family a well.

To step away from the team this close to the world cup does suggest there is a serious issue and it feels like a matter of mental health and wellbeing. Whether the conditions and environment created by Eddie Jones contributed to this we will perhaps only know if  Marler produces an autobiography one day. He is a complicated lad, who thinks deeply about things and more than likely is no where near as confident as his outward persona.

I wish him all the best in his future endeavours.

I also suspect 'mental health'. He had some anger issues in the past, and I don't think the death of the young Quins prop he was mentoring helped at all. I doubt it is anything directly to do with EJ, unless there are specific issues with culture.

A great loss. We might have other prospects who will come good, and of course there are some aspects of Mako's game which are sublime, but he must be the best all round loose head we have to hand at this moment. I also find the O2 interviews with him hilarious.

I've got my doubts about Williams. He was the toast of the commentators at U20 level, and yes he was making yards and running hard in traffic, but when things got sticky it was quite noticeable that the team turned to Marchant to sort it out. (I later got that view confirmed by the dad of one of the other players in that squad).

We've got a number of players who can run hard from 12 - Manu, Te'o and Farrell can all do it to various degrees. Williams needs to do enough to show that he can consistently add something above that.

I'd rather see Marchant coming through in the short term. He offers a direct replacement to JJ and is possibly a better reader of the game. However, he may need a good run without injury to get back on Eddie's radar.

(And on Marler: not entirely surprised, but saddened. I had him down as a potential 100 capper when he came on the scene. I think in his case it genuinely is personal; his family means a huge amount to him and he has in the past walked away from things that he didn't feel he was cut out for, like the Quins captaincy)

Deleted

Early days for Williams without doubt but he certainly does more than run hard, in fact he's not done that much of it so far. His offloading game looks very interesting.

Williams & Marchant centre combo post RWC then, you heard it here first.

Real shame about Marler. He’s shown he’s willing to work on aspects of his game and had attempted to adapt. Always difficult for a prop when you need to show more of an all-round game and maintain strong scrummaging. Only the very, very best can do both to a high level internationally. Genuinely funny guy who I would imagine adds a lot behind the scenes with his team mates and is pretty honest about his limitations (as per his stepping down from the Quins captaincy). Really hope there’s nothing really serious in his private life to force his decision.

Marler was real running prop like Mako when he was younger, but changed himself into a quality international loosehead. Im sorry to see him retire for international rugby.

We have a few crackers coming through though (if they can stay fit) so we just need to get through the AI's etc.

Te'o has injured his calf. Not thought to be serious so hop[euly he wioll still be able to get a few games in before the AIs

What is the point of picking " crash" centres Manu and Te'o when they keep getting injured better to have players who off load or create space.

rosbif wrote:What is the point  of picking  " crash" centres Manu and Te'o when they  keep getting injured better to have players who off load or create space.

You need both. You need to make space for it to be exploited, and crash centres help to make space.

Horses for courses etc. Why wouldn't you want someone as good as Tuilagi in your squad. The point you make about injury is valid but anyone can get injured in this game.

If he's the same Tuilagi that played against NZ etc??

Has he been playing like that Manu...?

GeordieFalcon wrote:If he's the same Tuilagi that played against NZ etc??

Has he been playing like that Manu...?

He was starting to resemble the player of old braking 7 tackles last week and attracting defenders like moths to a flame. Certainly if you measure a player on the hole left by their absence, yesterday was informative. Without him offering a hard running line there was less space for Ford who while still playing pretty well, was not as dominant as in the previous 3 weeks. (note on ford - Sale kept sending big runners at him, and he kept stopping them with aggressive tackles). Manu's defensive positioning needs work, but that can be said about the whole of the Leicester team.

However having picked up a knock, it is now to be seen if it is a major issue or a minor thing. With Owen staggering off with what looked a serious injury (again) Tigers will need him available for Twickenham next week.

Hats off to Good for a masterclass at 15 this weekend.
I've not been his greatest supporter over the years as I thought he was picking up caps above Mike Brown when Brown was in form.
Currently Brown is injury prone and not been in the greatest form (recent weekends performance aside).
Watson is injured (also had a chance and failed to grab it).

I wouldn't be too upset to see Goode pulled back into the England fold.

Eddie does not seem like someone who is often willing to change his mind. He has not liked Goode ever since taking over and was probably relieved when Goode dropped the first high kick that went his way in his only cap under EJ. That aside Goode was sublime this weekend, but the flaws in his game are highlighted when facing better players than Bath deigned to select this weekend.

Other options at 15 could also be Daly covering.
Or Ashton has been playing a lot (not recently) as 15 with Toulon.
Pennel I feel has missed his chances now.
Hammersly was impressive with his carrying over the weekend.
Nowell has covered 15 before but I am not sure if its enough to play test rugby there.

But on, weekends performances Goode is right up there with the best at the moment.

As I said on a different thread, Goode's performance was the best I have seen by a FB in club colours for many a year. However so long as Daly and Brown are fit, I believe they will cover FB this Autumn. Should either be injured between now and then it will be interesting to see what Eddie does. Ashton was at last week's training camp so he is probably still an option in Eddie's eyes.

propdavid_london wrote:  

Hammersly was impressive with his carrying over the weekend.

He was outstanding against Exeter last week also...its the Hammersley who broke on the scene with incredible running lines and gliding past defenders. However lets see if he can continue it on for the season...

There doesn't seem to be any real prospects coming through at FB which is a bit worrying. I like that young guy at Tigers who plays left wing, he seems to have the attributes although not sure of his kicking.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There doesn't seem to be any real prospects coming through at FB which is a bit worrying. I like that young guy at Tigers who plays left wing, he seems to have the attributes although not sure of his kicking.

Jason Woodward
Prince Harry
Max Malins

All in the 'potential' rather than 'must be included' list, and Harry in particular seems to be going backwards, and Woodward is 28.

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There doesn't seem to be any real prospects coming through at FB which is a bit worrying. I like that young guy at Tigers who plays left wing, he seems to have the attributes although not sure of his kicking.

Jason Woodward
Prince Harry
Max Malins

All in the 'potential' rather than 'must be included' list, and Harry in particular seems to be going backwards, and Woodward is 28.

And an Aussie...so no thank you...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There doesn't seem to be any real prospects coming through at FB which is a bit worrying. I like that young guy at Tigers who plays left wing, he seems to have the attributes although not sure of his kicking.

Jason Woodward
Prince Harry
Max Malins

All in the 'potential' rather than 'must be included' list, and Harry in particular seems to be going backwards, and Woodward is 28.

And an Aussie...so no thank you...

Technically a New Zealander part educated at Hartpury. Not sure where the England link comes from though.

A kiwi...my mistake sorry. I knew he was from over seas somewhere.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There doesn't seem to be any real prospects coming through at FB which is a bit worrying. I like that young guy at Tigers who plays left wing, he seems to have the attributes although not sure of his kicking.

Olowefela is currently playing FB for us, though will be back on the bench when Veainu is fit. His kicking and positional play are most definitely works in progress, though after attending the last two training camps he is on Eddie's radar. In reality a post 2019 option.

Theres a lot of post 2019 options coming through...im more concerned with WC 2019.

It could end up being another disaster like the last one.

Full back for this one is out of Daly brown and Watson. So no need for concern there.

Malins was a real prospect but hasn't had the club gametime.
Woodward has looked good in patches - A bit like Piers Francis (Im not convinced yet) - If I was picking a Saxons squad I would have them in there though.

Brown is starting to look past it but Eddie may keep him in there.
Watson injured and hasn't looked made for the FB spot - better winger.
Daly the best option (one of Englands best alround players)...but unconvinced at FB. Work in progress. Must play there in the AI's....

Daly looked good there in the summer. Yes he does need backing there now. Watson being out may change jones mind to moving brown back to full back. Hoping to see some of cokanasiga this ais at wing as well.

Malins looks well down the pecking order getting next to no time for saracens. He needed a move for me.

Outside chance options of lozowski and slade.

Agree on Malins.

its like Jamie George all over again. At the crucial time he simply has to be playing top flight games...he getting very little.

LOzowski is another one that I have been impressed with recently.
Previously I thought he wasn't much more than a bench option at best. But recent performances have made me rethink - He gets stuck into the gritty stuff too. Offers versatility playing 10,12,13. Could cover 15 if he had to.

Currently Slade and Loz are 2 good options for 13. Or could even work together if Faz moves to 10.

Farrell, Lozowski and Slade at 10, 12, 13 would be interesting.

I also agree about Malins at Saracens, he looked superb at age grade level but the lack of game time will really hurt him. I feel it is the same story with Tompkins, he was a beautifully balanced runner, but has become a bit part player.

You have to wonder if George had left Sarries and gone to a club where he was first choice, would he be first choice hooker for England now? He actually has more caps than I realised (28), but I reckon he could have 50+ by now.

It seems harsh to criticise, considering they have brought through the likes of Itoje, Isiekwe and Farrell etc, but they do seem to waste some of the talent they have.

I would also say that I am just not sold on Daly at full back, I don't ever remember him having a particularly good game in the position, but I do remember several howlers. He doesn't play there for Wasps and it doesn't seem like he will any time soon. I would much rather England play an actual fullback at, er fullback.

Equally Watson has looked shaky at international too. At least he has a history in the position and players there for his club (but I agree he does look better on the wing. It is a real conundrum.

propdavid_london wrote:LOzowski is another one that I have been impressed with recently.
Previously I thought he wasn't much more than a bench option at best.  But recent performances have made me rethink - He gets stuck into the gritty stuff too.  Offers versatility playing 10,12,13.  Could cover 15 if he had to.

Currently Slade and Loz are 2 good options for 13.  Or could even work together if Faz moves to 10.

Farrell, Lozowski and Slade at 10, 12, 13 would be interesting.  

I was thinking that the other day as loz can run hard lines but just isn't playing 12 regularly for me. It is time we back faz at 10 and find a decent 12 double quick. We can sure score some decent tries but our defense is not of the required standard as too many teams get front foot ball in our midfield. But who to put at 12?

EQ specialist inside centres off the top of my head are:
Teo, knackered one dimensional
Atkinson, meh
Eastmond, decent going forward
Williams, newbie has potential
Twelvetrees, tried and didn't set the world alight but playing quite well.
LeBourges (sorry terrible speller) not international quality yet (eternal optimist)
Barrett see twelve trees above
Tompkins can't oust barritt looks OK but not shouting pick me

There's probably more but none that stick out.

We had other options in the u20's at Quins, but both have never kicked on. Casson is in the Championship I think now, and the other (I forget the name) is out injured long term.

England seem to be hitting a dry patch for 12s.

I'd stick with Faz. Fix the backrow and set pieces and the backline will improve straight away. After that fix no9 and our approach at our own rucks and we'll look on fire.