England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

Speaking on Brian Moore's podcast, Maggie Alphonsi had an interesting take on Alex Goode.

She wonders whether he's in decent form because he hasn't been involved with England. She points out he has had two full pre-seasons, where he apparently worked in his speed. He looks like he is enjoying his rugby, and Alphonsi says part of that may be because he has none of the pressure involved with the national side.

It did irritate me slightly when Eddie Jones said his players are more refereshed than they were in the season after the Lions tour, because most still had no opportunity for a decent pre-season after he failed to rest them from the South Africa tour. Think how much better nick some of them would have been in, if they'd had a break.

That's a very good point and there's probably a lot of truth to it! No coach would or will have the nerve to rest key players unless something changes though

yappysnap wrote:We had other options in the u20's at Quins, but both have never kicked on. Casson is in the Championship I think now, and the other (I forget the name) is out injured long term.

Was that Harry Sloan? Or has he left? Think he might be with Ealing at the moment. Henry Cheesman is playing in a lot of the A-league games.

Cumbrian wrote:I would also say that I am just not sold on Daly at full back, I don't ever remember him having a particularly good game in the position, but I do remember several howlers.  He doesn't play there for Wasps and it doesn't seem like he will any time soon.  I would much rather England play an actual fullback at, er fullback.

Equally Watson has looked shaky at international too.  At least he has a history in the position and players there for his club (but I agree he does look better on the wing.  It is a real conundrum.

Daly has made 4 starts for Wasps this season, two at full back and two in the centre. Against us he looked really good wearing 15. Of course with Le Roux back soon (probably) and unable to play any other position he will take the Wasps 15 shirt.

While Watson plays FB for Bath, when fit, he always looks happier at the edges of the pitch.

11. May
15. Daly
14. Watson

On paper, has a really exciting look to it. All players have bags of gas and are solid under the high ball. Not sure we'll get all 3 fit and firing at the same time, but we can hope.

yappysnap wrote:We had other options in the u20's at Quins, but both have never kicked on. Casson is in the Championship I think now, and the other (I forget the name) is out injured long term.

England seem to be hitting a dry patch for 12s.

I'd stick with Faz. Fix the backrow and set pieces and the backline will improve straight away. After that fix no9 and our approach at our own rucks and we'll look on fire.

Prince Harry was the best potential option a couple of years ago, but seems to like 15 better. At 6'5", 17.5 stone (and getting heavier) he had the potential to be able to hit the line hard and has a great offload, he has a great passing game, gives another option with the boot and is deceptively fast. He has just never kicked on, his versatility seems to work against him. I would still like to think he has it in him to make the grade at international level, especially if Boyd can sort out his defensive frailties. I hope I am wrong, but in the back of my mind, I have a suspicion that he does not like the rougher elements of the game that you get at 12, it would be a pity because he has the potential to be very good there if he put his mind to it.

Joe Marler on the Rugby Pod said that, around this time of year, his performances would get worse, as the England selection drew closer. He said that he wonders whether his silly penalties and cards were partly a sign he was trying to screw up his England chances, to take the decision out of his hands.

yappysnap wrote:We had other options in the u20's at Quins, but both have never kicked on. Casson is in the Championship I think now, and the other (I forget the name) is out injured long term.

England seem to be hitting a dry patch for 12s.

I'd stick with Faz. Fix the backrow and set pieces and the backline will improve straight away. After that fix no9 and our approach at our own rucks and we'll look on fire.

Medal for understatement of the year Yappy

Have we ever really replaced Greenwood successfully?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:We had other options in the u20's at Quins, but both have never kicked on. Casson is in the Championship I think now, and the other (I forget the name) is out injured long term.

England seem to be hitting a dry patch for 12s.

I'd stick with Faz. Fix the backrow and set pieces and the backline will improve straight away. After that fix no9 and our approach at our own rucks and we'll look on fire.

Medal for understatement of the year Yappy

Have we ever really replaced Greenwood successfully?

Two words: Shontayne Hape

Someone mentioned above...it appears that Eddie is trying to put as many skilled ball players in the backline as possible very much like Australia do...without players in their actual positons.

Now Australia (normally) are extremely talented and used to simply interchanging positions on the pitch...

But are English players able to do that at international level...especially when its rarely a settled England backline to get used to doing that!

Fluxy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:We had other options in the u20's at Quins, but both have never kicked on. Casson is in the Championship I think now, and the other (I forget the name) is out injured long term.

England seem to be hitting a dry patch for 12s.

I'd stick with Faz. Fix the backrow and set pieces and the backline will improve straight away. After that fix no9 and our approach at our own rucks and we'll look on fire.

Medal for understatement of the year Yappy

Have we ever really replaced Greenwood successfully?

Two words: Shontayne Hape

Flutey, Henry Paul, etc etc the list is frightening....

Hape and Flutey were decent options at the time, just we've had nobody at Greenwood's level....he was rather good to be fair.

As much as we complain about 12's, Farrell was first choice for the Lions, so he must be doing something right.

Flutey was a class act to be fair.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Flutey was a class act to be fair.

While he lasted.. But yes he was good. Hape was safe enough but neither good nor bad really.

Greenwood was one of our best ever centers (if not the best - so far)

The issue with putting Farrell in a backline with multiple 10s is that he likes to run the show, particularly of set-piece ball.

That has worked well with Ford when the pack was doing well, as it allowed Ford to step up in phase play when the pack had secured quick ball. That's where Ford plays his best rugby in my opinion. Multiple phases to work through, selecting options and spotting gaps.

Once the quick ball dried up we frequently saw Ford becoming invisible and Farrell trying to do too much without reward. Would putting Farrell at 10 with Slade/Lozowski in the centres just increase that risk of losing the shape as Farrell struggles to trust them to act as playmakers under pressure.

Not me kicking Farrell there, he's undoubtedly one of England's most important players. As is usually the case with central figures it's a difficult balancing act who you partner him with the complement those skill sets.

Defence is another big argument for moving him to 10 though. His defence at 12 has been erratic at best.

Farrell has been just doing as told in defence at 12 ie cutting off the wide ball. You may well see that change with mitchell coming in anyway.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Flutey was a class act to be fair.

While he lasted.. But yes he was good. Hape was safe enough but neither good nor bad really.

Greenwood was one of our best ever centers (if not the best - so far)

I mean we have missed the best of them all - Jamie Noon.

Good old granite shoulders Noon...

propdavid_london wrote:Good old granite shoulders Noon...

Shame his hands were also made of granite.

The handling skills of the Noon Tindall centre partnership was quite something

wasn't Erinle in there at one point...? or was that at 13?

GeordieFalcon wrote:wasn't Erinle in there at one point...? or was that at 13?

His one full cap was at 12.

(Replaced on 63 minutes by Shane Geraghty)

They should have gone for bananaman at 12 to be honest.

Banahan could have been an interesting one at 12 actually

GeordieFalcon wrote:Banahan could have been an interesting one at 12 actually

It was an idea that was doing the rounds, but very much in the 'we'll never know' category.

In other news the England number 8 curse has struck again. Simmonds did his knee vs Worcs (and Hill has a hand injury)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45717149

Baxter is saying 'Hopefully [they will be] back before the end of the season'

GeordieFalcon wrote:Banahan could have been an interesting one at 12 actually

I saw Banahan play a game there against the Baa Baas and it looked like the position he should have been playing his whole career. It's a shame he wasn't tried there earlier as we could have used a crash ball centre so tall it was almost impossible to stop him offloading.

Really struggling for EQP ICs who look like they can make the step up. For all that I've been sceptical about Williams recently, he might be the closest - unless Tuilagi can stay fit and focus a bit more on his distribution.

Not sure how much Simomonds will be involved anyway. Billy V, Hughes and Mercer surely are the 3 8's for Jones.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Banahan could have been an interesting one at 12 actually

I saw Banahan play a game there against the Baa Baas and it looked like the position he should have been playing his whole career. It's a shame he wasn't tried there earlier as we could have used a crash ball centre so tall it was almost impossible to stop him offloading.

Really struggling for EQP ICs who look like they can make the step up. For all that I've been sceptical about Williams recently, he might be the closest - unless Tuilagi can stay fit and focus a bit more on his distribution.

Still early days Poor Four, but he's showed a lot of potential...and a nice balance between skilled play and the rough stuff.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not sure how much Simomonds will be involved anyway. Billy V, Hughes and Mercer surely are the 3 8's for Jones.

As a utility back row, and a player who can definitely add impact I think Simmonds has a lot to offer - and it would be nice to not focus just on size for once - but he's not going to be 1st pick

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not sure how much Simomonds will be involved anyway. Billy V, Hughes and Mercer surely are the 3 8's for Jones.

I'd like to see focus put on Billy and Mercer personally. I was initially skeptical of Mercer, he reminded me of a young Alex Gray. Fantastic skills and brilliant at U20 but just lacking the physicality to step up as a top class back row. Mercer has already proven me very wrong and is improving constantly. By the RWC he could be a way ahead of Hughes and Simmonds.

Some might say they are two different to be considered as our first two options but plenty of other sides manage to alter the balance of their back row and not have it derail team tactics. Having different tactical options should be viewed a positive not a negative, Mercers line-out skills are particularly interesting compared to recent options.

6.Robshaw, Shields
7.T Curry, Underhill
8.Vunipola, Mercer

Pick your best players then devise tactics from there IMO.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:wasn't Erinle in there at one point...? or was that at 13?

His one full cap was at 12.

(Replaced on 63 minutes by Shane Geraghty)

They should have gone for bananaman at 12 to be honest.

Shane Geraghty! His cameo at 12 was amazing, one crash ball off of a lineout, straight into the opposition's pack and destroyed. Never played again.

Rugby Fan wrote:Joe Marler on the Rugby Pod said that, around this time of year, his performances would get worse, as the England selection drew closer. He said that he wonders whether his silly penalties and cards were partly a sign he was trying to screw up his England chances, to take the decision out of his hands.

It's a bit sad that Marler has had to clarify his comments, since it was obvious to anyone listening what he actually said.

Didn't stop the Times, Telegraph and Sky (and probably more) reporting that Marler had deliberately looked to get himself banned to avoid England duty. Shoddy reporting all round.

All Marler noted was that his discipline often seemed to go to pieces as England selection loomed, which has made him wonder whether that was anxiety manifesting itself in irrational behaviour.

Can understand him not wanting to play for England though...the things people do to get out of a bad gig these days...

Taylorman wrote:Can understand him not wanting to play for England though...the things people do to get out of a bad gig these days...

Must be something about props. I recall Carl Hayman rejecting appeals from the NZRU to return to New Zealand, so he could play for the All Blacks.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not sure how much Simomonds will be involved anyway. Billy V, Hughes and Mercer surely are the 3 8's for Jones.

As a utility back row, and a player who can definitely add impact I think Simmonds has a lot to offer - and it would be nice to not focus just on size for once - but he's not going to be 1st pick

I agree, and before Simmonds Eddie picked Clifford who's a similar player and fills a similar role. I think he likes the idea of a dynamic backrower on the bench who can cover all positions.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not sure how much Simomonds will be involved anyway. Billy V, Hughes and Mercer surely are the 3 8's for Jones.

As a utility back row, and a player who can definitely add impact I think Simmonds has a lot to offer - and it would be nice to not focus just on size for once - but he's not going to be 1st pick

I actually rate Simmons very highly...its just im pretty sure Jones has his requirements at 8..and im not sure if Simmonds size fits there.
His tackle rate, work rate and ability to attack is top class and I think a flank position may be his best bet at international level...but he has competition there who offer different skills.

Its going to be interesting to watch

Ive said so many times I wish Sam had been moved to 12. He has the lot, Size for that position, power, pace, rucking and mauling ability, a strong tackler etc etc. The guy would be the complete 12. But that's just my opinion.

Simmonds has blown his ACL, probably ending his season.

BIg shame for him personally and IMO for England.  To me Simmonds offered what England have been missing - a quick ball stealing back row.

There seems to be this obsession with bulk and safety with England ( not just under Jones) meaning small but skillful players get left out

In some ways the amount of choice england have works against them.  Scotland we can only pick our best layers then create a gameplan to suit them.  England can choose a game plan then pick the players to suit but if the gameplan is not working?

To me Simmonds offered what England have been missing - a quick ball stealing back row.

Quick yes, ball stealing no. Simmons offers little in terms of breakdown work, it's not in his skill set.

What he does offer is pace, linking and a good work rate. For me, he's a luxury type of player who looks good off fast ball with a dominant pack. England don't have this, I really can't see his value unless we're playing a lesser nation.

Half of breakdown work seems to be forgotten about here sometimes ie securing own ball.

I think hes more than a luxury Sgt, his work rate is exceptional and he has put in some exceptionally high tackling stats in his few England appearances. So he can certainly do the dirty stuff. Maybe hes not a break down guru, but aside from Curry / Kvesic, who really is that we have?

I think he would work well on the flank, alongside a Curry or Underhill.

It makes me wonder how the Kiwis and Aussies would be looking at our options and how they would select..they generally get their back row set up pretty good.

Curry x 2
Underhill
Kvesic
Mercer
Robshaw
Simmonds
Shields
Armand

No 7&1/2 wrote:Half of breakdown work seems to be forgotten about here sometimes ie securing own ball.

He's hardly amazing at this either due to his size/lack of physicality He's basically our version of Hooper but not as physical and not as good at the breakdown, I really don't see it with Simmons. I'm happy to agree to disagree, but has he made any kind of impact at Int level in his 7 or so caps (except against Italy)?

He's very good. Fast and secures ball quickly. As with anyone coming into a team they need time to settle. I'd partially agree that he's small for the back row he was brought into. For the past x number of years we've had a system of 2 6s and a big 8. That suited the players and worked very well on the whole. With an out and out 7 being played and a smaller 8 I don't think a smaller 6 works as well. So on the while if it's vunipola simmonds and curry would work great for me. If we're looking haskell Robshaw I don't think simmonds suits as well. And I don't personally think lawes is a 6 so curry simmonds lawes wouldn't work.

Mercer at 6 is the answer...or could be...

He's going to get a number of caps there definitely.

You see i'm a fan of Underhills sheer power as well though. I think England are missing a bit of that in the pack...lots of athleticism, but a lack of genuine brute power and strength.

I think the packs ok if vunipola is there (and now mako i suppose). I am keen to see Tuilagi and cokanasiga though. Adds another string to the bow.

A nice south pacific ring to that one 7.5

Its actually a concern, this close to a world cup, that we (the armchair world cup winning managers) are all still debating who is the starting lineup.

Im sure Jones has his preferred choice if all fit, but we all seem to disagree considerably from what he is thinking also.

You'll never change that gf as there's enough quality players to play 3 teams so people will argue over their favourites. Mine will differ to you. Beshocked would pick saracens and jones will hAve his own thoughts etc.

Yes I appreciate that 7.5, but normally theres a middle ground...or a core of the team that we'll generally agree on.

Im not sure there is at the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:A nice south pacific ring to that one 7.5

Which reminds me - post RWC Jacob Umaga might come back into consideration. He's out in NZ at the moment on loan from Wasps