England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

True enough. Jones has been more about tweaking slightly once he found the best system to suit his first set of players.

Just read somewhere that SA Internationals operating in Premiership won't be released for England game. The heading was something like "England to face weakened SA"

Now rules is rules and outside-International-windows is outside-International-windows. But I'd like to ask any of my English 606 pals - does that rule mean English Internationals too? If that were the case then I assume the title of the thing I wrote should just read: Weakened England to face weakened SA?

Anyone care to clarify the details?

SecretFly wrote:Anyone care to clarify the details?

The RFU pays the Premiership teams for access to players outside the international windows. Primarily for training camps but also for any additional matches scheduled. The Premiership teams also have an agreement among themselves not to release any of their players outside the windows unless a joint agreement has been reached. This is why, for instance, Northampton were fined for releasing George North.

As far as I'm aware, no other union has an agreement equivalent to the one the RFU arranged, and none have sought to strike one.

I have no issue with for example the PRL aiding the RFU ( I couldn't as I'm a constant defender of joined up Rugby thinking in Nations - Union + club rather than Union v club)....

...but..

...well, it does seem to be quite a powerful tool the RFU have there in creating these potential lop-sided encounters that still are ranking point games.

Anything lopsided is created by unions agreeing to matches outside the international window.unless you have an agreement with clubs to release players you're risking not hang the players you want.

SecretFly wrote:I have no issue with for example the PRL aiding the RFU ( I couldn't as I'm a constant defender of joined up Rugby thinking in Nations - Union + club rather than Union v club)....

...but..

...well, it does seem to be quite a powerful tool the RFU have there in creating these potential lop-sided encounters that still are ranking point games.

Until a full England side gets spanked by an understrength South Africa....

...well maybe........

but news of England's demise is I'm sure fake. The dog in them will return soon enough.

SecretFly wrote:...well, it does seem to be quite a powerful tool the RFU have there in creating these potential lop-sided encounters that still are ranking point games.

For years, England have gone to Argentina during Lions tours, so the squad we send is always missing at least half a dozen of our best players, often more. That doesn't sound like the behaviour of a union bent on creating lop-side encounters in their own favour,

Well Argentina are usually a few ranks below England most years.  On the other hand SA usually aren't.

So............. one team is habitually better than the other (Arg v SA that is).

SecretFly wrote:Well Argentina are usually a few ranks below England most years.  On the other hand SA usually aren't.

Argentina were ranked a place above England when we toured in 2009.

Slightly weird one with Nathan Hughes hearing:

Nathan Hughes of Wasps appeared before an independent disciplinary panel this evening. He was cited by independent citing commissioner Andy Blyth following the match Wasps v Gloucester on Saturday 6 October 2018 for punching or striking Gloucester’s Lewis Ludlow contrary to Law 9.12.
The independent disciplinary panel comprised Gareth Graham with Matthew Weaver and Martyn Wood.
Independent panel chair Gareth Graham said: “The independent panel appointed to deal with this case will reconvene in not less than 7 days in order to deal with an issue that arose during the evening.

“No judgment will be issued by the panel in this period and the panel direct that the player, Wasps Rugby and the RFU are to make no further comment until the case has concluded.

“The player remains suspended until the conclusion of the matter.”

Read more at https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2018-2019/rfu-disciplinary-hearing-nathan-hughes/#3T0dfjou0C5cbJeb.99

BBC said that "an issue that arose during the evening".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45787854

propdavid_london wrote:BBC said that "an issue that arose during the evening".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45787854

No biscuits?

Being serious it doesn't sound good. I wonder if there was provocation that hasn't come to light yet.

I think the fact that Hughes remains suspended for as long as it takes to re-convene the panel sounds unusual.
I suppose you cant just return to play while they are awaiting judgement!

Anyway - as you say lost, doesn't sound good.

Twitter and Reddit seem to think that Hughes tweeted *mid-hearing* saying "what a joke". With a smiley. Tweet was deleted, apparently, but must have been noticed.

That appears to be the "issue that arose during the evening".

Now I know Hughes has a bit of a rep for not being the sharpest tool in the shed, but...

That would be amazing if one of the panel happens to follow Hughes - and received a notification of post 'mid hearing'.

If there is any truth to this then I wouldn't expect the panel to be particularly lenient come judgment time.

And.....confirmed - https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/11523320/nathan-hughes-tweet-behind-adjourned-disciplinary-hearing

propdavid_london wrote:That would be amazing if one of the panel happens to follow Hughes - and received a notification of post 'mid hearing'.

If there is any truth to this then I wouldn't expect the panel to be particularly lenient come judgment time.

Disciplinary panels follow social media because so many post-match apologies appear on twitter, Facebook etc. It wouldn't be surprising if someone was actually designated to watch the accounts pf players scheduled to appear before them

Dan Robson ruled out for 3 months.

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:That would be amazing if one of the panel happens to follow Hughes - and received a notification of post 'mid hearing'.

If there is any truth to this then I wouldn't expect the panel to be particularly lenient come judgment time.

Disciplinary panels follow social media because so many post-match apologies appear on twitter, Facebook etc. It wouldn't be surprising if someone was actually designated to watch the accounts pf players scheduled to appear before them

This is so stupid, Hughes you complete plank. Wasps should suspend him and dock his wages as this far from professional. England need to move away from him and reward players with a bit of intelligence. With this in mind who's back up for Billy this autumn? Mercer would be a good shout, offers more around the park anyway.

LondonTiger wrote:Dan Robson ruled out for 3 months due to ankle surgery.

And now Joe Launchbury ruled out for a similar period after having knee surgery.

Thats a huge blow.

Of the touring party to SA this summer:

Mike Brown (Harlequins) - missed games due to injury this season
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints) - Currently Injured
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers) - Currently Injured
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) - Currently Injured
Nathan Hughes (Wasps) - suspended
Joe Launchbury (Wasps) - Currently Injured
Joe Marler (Harlequins) - retired
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers) - Currently Injured
Dan Robson (Wasps) - Currently Injured
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) - Been Injured
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs) - Currently Injured
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) - Been Injured
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks) - Currently Injured
Billy Vunipola (Saracens) - Coming back from injury
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers) - Missed training camp due to injury

Of that list LT -
Brown is playing again at the moment and looking better
May - I think is playing this weekend
Shields is expected to play this weekend
Sinks - has been playing (but not his usual self - yet)
Billy V - Looks like he's never been away
Ben Youngs - I think also is supposed to play this weekend.

Care missed the tour to SA but looks to be quite sharp at the moment.

Sinckler bossed the scrum against Vunipola but there were a few niggles by him in the first half. Barging players parting etc.

Francis is also starting for Saints this weekend.

Current injuries aside, England should still be able to put out a fairly strong 15. But its quality on the bench that might be lacking.

Might want to add Underhill to the injured list + other long term absences Joseph and Watson.

But a side like this is still plausible -

Mako, Hartley, Sinkler, Lawes, Itoje, Robshaw, Curry, Billy V
B.Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Slade, Daly, Brown

Bench: Hepburn, George, H.Williams, Kruis/Isekwe, Shields, Care, Slade, Lozowski

Still with guys like - Earl, Nowell, Rhodes, Cockanasinga, Ashton all not being used.

Obviously there are a few more Euro rounds to go so fingers crossed there aren't too many more injuries.

May not ready for this weekend.

Apologies LT -
So, sub in Nowell if experience required. Or Earl/Cockanasinga if more power is needed.

I also forgot Dan Cole out of the starting 15.

Yoda wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:That would be amazing if one of the panel happens to follow Hughes - and received a notification of post 'mid hearing'.

If there is any truth to this then I wouldn't expect the panel to be particularly lenient come judgment time.

Disciplinary panels follow social media because so many post-match apologies appear on twitter, Facebook etc. It wouldn't be surprising if someone was actually designated to watch the accounts pf players scheduled to appear before them

This is so stupid, Hughes you complete plank. Wasps should suspend him and dock his wages as this far from professional. England need to move away from him and reward players with a bit of intelligence. With this in mind who's back up for Billy this autumn? Mercer would be a good shout, offers more around the park anyway.

Queue Nathan Hughes "My account must have been hacked your honour".

If Hughes does get a lengthy ban for alleged puch or tweet, you would hae to say Mercer was next in line, assuming EJ is going to go down the route of playing Robshaw, Shields, etc out of position.

Slade in there twice; Tuilagi? It's still a good team but could be.even better with all the options. As you say it's more the bench that's weakened.

What worries me is the injuries we may get over the next two weeks.

Yup - my Bad....Just really want Slade in there it seems!
Tuilagi could make the bench although I would be nervous about parachuting him straight in there.
Lozowski has looked very good for Sarries, and covers multiple positions so I think works well from the bench. He would also allow England to have an additional back 3 cover in the 23.

Yup he's looking good. Fingers crossed they all.come through the club games.

Sharkey06 wrote:

Yoda wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:That would be amazing if one of the panel happens to follow Hughes - and received a notification of post 'mid hearing'.

If there is any truth to this then I wouldn't expect the panel to be particularly lenient come judgment time.

Disciplinary panels follow social media because so many post-match apologies appear on twitter, Facebook etc. It wouldn't be surprising if someone was actually designated to watch the accounts pf players scheduled to appear before them

This is so stupid, Hughes you complete plank. Wasps should suspend him and dock his wages as this far from professional. England need to move away from him and reward players with a bit of intelligence. With this in mind who's back up for Billy this autumn? Mercer would be a good shout, offers more around the park anyway.

Cue Nathan Hughes "My account must have been hacked your honour".

His best bet might be to say he meant to send a private message/DM but made a mistake. That would take full responsbibility for the public embarassment but without the intent.

Lawes is currently unavailable for Saints with back trouble, stopped him playing last week as well. Hopefully only a niggle, but still a worry.

Do people think that the AI's are an important part of the build up to the world cup; a distraction before the real thing starts in the 6 Nations; or an opportubnity to give some fringe players a run out?  Lawes and Launchbury being unavailable gives Kruis, Atwood, ano an opportunity - they both have 50+ caps so we know what they offer and don't need the extra experience.  I think most of us would say give Billy a rest and look at the alternatives, same with Youngs/Care.  We do need to try and get our 7 sorted and our 12 and 13.  Other than that I think whilst individuals may not be nailed on, it is either Hartley or George; Cole or Sinkler; etc.

Sharkey06 wrote:Do people think that the AI's are an important part of the build up to the world cup; a distraction before the real thing starts in the 6 Nations; or an opportubnity to give some fringe players a run out?  Lawes and Launchbury being unavailable gives Kruis, Atwood, ano an opportunity - they both have 50+ caps so we know what they offer and don't need the extra experience.  I think most of us would say give Billy a rest and look at the alternatives, same with Youngs/Care.  We do need to try and get our 7 sorted and our 12 and 13.  Other than that I think whilst individuals may not be nailed on, it is either Hartley or George; Cole or Sinkler; etc.

If we had a settled first XV we could look at trialling a few other players. But I think we really need to be nailing down combos. I would definitely be playing the strongest XV against South Africa and New Zealand, and then rotate for the last two games. If we've won the first two and shown up well, it will give us a chance to look at the fringe players. If we lose one or two and don't show up well, then we can look at tweaking some combos to see if there are better players out there.

We get a lot of natural rotation from injuries. The World Cup is only 9 meaningful games away, so we shouldn't now be wasting time on players who aren't realistic prospects for the final squad.

Mako Vuniploa has hobbled off in the first half of the match against Glasgow. Brother Billy also has a heavily strapped leg which just got over-extended, so we'll see how he goes.

Big issues if we lose mako for the AIs already incredibly stretched there now.

Mako felt "a tweak in his calf", according to the half-time commentator.

Soo - no.8 - If Billy needs any time out. Hughes is going to be banned (at least to start with) Simmonds is potentially out all year. We may need some new blood.

Who would be next in line? Mercer? Morgan for a recall? What do England fans think?

So if Mako's out we will be looking very thin on the ground at LH. I guess we'd turn to Hepburn, with possibly Moon as he was recently called up. Genge is injured, Marler has retired and with Mako out too, who else is there?

I will expect a call from Eddie any day now as I once played Loosehead for my U13 C team back in the 80s and I am England-qualified.

Brutal game at Scotstoun for England squad members. At least broken noses heal pretty quickly.

For LH:

Moon and Hepburn of Exeter have been involved recently. Catt at Bath may be a possibility. Rapava-Ruskin if he can stay fit.

As to No8, Mercer the obvious thought. Jones was once looking at Beaumont there, but no way should be get a look in. From within the recent squads I guess Wilson and Shields could do a job.

Always seems to happen this way with England doesn’t it? We can’t just lose our first choice player, oh no! We have to lose the next two or three back up players in that position too! What next? Morgan going to get caught in some timeshare scam? Maybe Mercer will discover a French grandad and go play for them instead! It is going to have to be one of them or Haskell (is he even still playing?) isn’t it? Although my money is on Robshaw or another out of position flanker.

Loosehead is more worrying though. Our scrum hasn’t looked great recently anyway and I worry players like Moon will not be able to fill the Marler shaped void...

So Lawes/Itoje to 6 and Robshaw to 8, you heard it here first!

Can someone do an injury list? I'm struggling to keep up with who's available or not!