England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

Marler (Retired),  M Vunipola (Potentially), Obano, Launchbury, Isiekwe, Jonny Hill, B Vunipola (Potentially), Hughes (idiotically), Simmonds, May? Lawes?  


Off the top of my head.

Isiekwe also went off injured didn't he? Or did he come back on again

Robson Joseph watson

May should be fit, but is currently out. Genge is out, Youngs is carrying an injury but still playing.

Ben Te'o too.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12572/11526102/saracens-mark-mccall-awaits-injury-news-on-vunipola-brothers-and-maro-itoje

As well as the 3 in the headline, George, Isiekwe and Farrell are name checked in this report.

yappysnap wrote:So Lawes/Itoje to 6 and Robshaw to 8, you heard it here first!

I really hope not! Mercer would seem to be next in line but at his stage of physical development I think he'd be better served on the flank.

EQP 8s who played this weekend, from a quick whiz down team sheets:
Ben Morgan
Billy Vunipola
Mark Wilson
Zach Mercer
Matt Kvesic (eh?)
Dave Ewers
Don Armand
Teimana Harrison
James Haskell
Nick Haining
James Chisholm

That's not a bad list - though a number of them are clearly not to Eddie's taste. It'll be interesting to see what he does next.

Last season when Exeter came to WR, Armand wore 8 but at scrumtime Salvi packed down at 8. Ever since Simmonds got injured Kvesic has been playing at 8, something he did do at times in his Worcester days. Despite looking as if they could play 8, it seems as if Baxter believes Ewers and Arman are missing key skills needed to pack down at the base of the scrum.

LondonTiger wrote:Last season when Exeter came to WR, Armand wore 8 but at scrumtime Salvi packed down at 8. Ever since Simmonds got injured Kvesic has been playing at 8, something he did do at times in his Worcester days. Despite looking as if they could play 8, it seems as if Baxter believes Ewers and Arman are missing key skills needed to pack down at the base of the scrum.

It is not always about the number on the shirt as much as the role in the back row, apart from what you are doing in the scrum. With Ewers on the flank I guess you don't need a heavy duty carrier at 8. It is more or less what Australia have been doing forever

Just remember that you can Antony Watson to the missing list too.

Cumbrian wrote:Just remember that you can Antony Watson to the missing list too.

Yeah, but he hasn't got the skills at the base of the scrum either...

Billy Vunipola out for 12 weeks

https://www.saracens.com/news-article/injury-update-nick-isiekwe-billy-vunipola-mako-vunipola

Wonderful

How many arm fractures is that now?

That sounds extremely bad.

I think it will get worse before it gets better injury wise. So what we are saying is we could potentially field a third choice loosehead, forth choice no8?, our reserve second rows, no one who plays inside centre for club and potentially our best attacking 10 twiddling his thumbs this autumn. Just as well we are only playing s.a and the all blacks first up then Jones better flipping rest the players he has left standing.

Who has England's best player of the year been?? Jonny May?

Yoda wrote:I think it will get worse before it gets better injury wise. So what we are saying is we could potentially field a third choice loosehead, forth choice no8?, our reserve second rows, no one who plays inside centre for club and potentially our best attacking 10 twiddling his thumbs this autumn. Just as well we are only playing s.a and the all blacks first up then    Jones better flipping rest the players he has left standing.

Its not up to Jones though, another weekend of the battering in the Champions Cup and god knows who we'll have left

Am I right in thinking the squad is due to be named this week?

I've convinced myself it's time to have morgan back in the fold.

Yes collapse may has been consistently excellent through the year for England

No 7&1/2 wrote:That sounds extremely bad.

Different arm this time.

Left arm this time, right arm last time.

That's something at least.

BamBam wrote:

Yoda wrote:I think it will get worse before it gets better injury wise. So what we are saying is we could potentially field a third choice loosehead, forth choice no8?, our reserve second rows, no one who plays inside centre for club and potentially our best attacking 10 twiddling his thumbs this autumn. Just as well we are only playing s.a and the all blacks first up then    Jones better flipping rest the players he has left standing.

Its not up to Jones though, another weekend of the battering in the Champions Cup and god knows who we'll have left

Am I right in thinking the squad is due to be named this week?

Squad to be named on Thursday.

Joint club / central contracts for top players. The union compensates the clubs and the players are managed to perform to the best of their ability in the biggest club and country games.
Frak me its really complicated.

Thing is a lot of these injuries stem from the big games and training. Not sure how you can limit those.

If it turns out both Vunipola brothers are out, I wonder whether Jones will change the gameplan, which has depended a good deal on at least one of them getting over the gain line as a ball carrier.

If Hughes is banned, then we don't really have a Billy mark 2 in the squad, and, if Curry is at seven, then the kind of power Haskell brought to that role two years will be missing too.

If we lack a bit of ball-carrying heft in the pack, then it seems less likely that we'll try a Ford, Farrell, Slade midfield, unless our whole strategy changes.

Then again, Te'o is injured, so Manu is the only midfield lump currently on Jones' radar.

Frak

This could be really bad!

Ugo Monye expects Chris Robshaw will miss some games. He didn't say if that includes Tests.

I guess we are pretty much in the realm of injury crisis now.  
I've not heard anything yet about the Hughes case, and while I understand Marlers reason for retiring from the international game - perhaps he could be persuaded to come back for the Nov Internationals.  
The other view on this is that Eddie basically uses this as an option to properly ring the changes - instantly taking the pressure of expectation off the players.  

Currently we could still field a team like this - (not lacking in experience)

Alec Hepburn, Hartley/George, Cole, Lawes, Itoje, Robshaw, Curry, Mercer, Youngs,  Ford, Earl, Farrell, Slade, Nowell, Brown/Daly
Bench:Ben Moon, LCD, Harry Williams, Kruis, Shields, Care, Lozowski, Cockanasinga

That's for now at least.....still another European round to go

Could be worse. Last series we lost our 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice no 8s. Wait a minute…

I beginning to think Billy has been drinking what Manu drinks. Two broken arms? Or is it 3 now? I think we may have to think beyond Billy as a regular choice, just as we have Manu. Maybe relying on one big carrier is not really possible for England. Can we give more weight to carrying ability in our general player selection – share the load. And I think we need a bigger carrier in the centres tbh. How’s Teo? Maybe Lancaster got it right with Slammin’ Sam.

We need someone that has the option to fix defenders through direct carrying as much as fixing them through footwork.
We have plenty of ball playing backs that are still fit (at the moment). But we do still need that directness.
That's why Earl may be a good shout on the wing or a Cockanasinga.
Teo isn't fit yet.
But the way selections may be going there is an argument for Brown to stay at 15.

If Robshaw is out, then it will give Jones a free hand to select more of a heavy ball carrier at six, or a more destructive tackler. In short, he can start from scratch on finding the best back row mix for the game plan he wants to us to follow.

Where we might be lacking, if Robshaw and Mako Vuniploa are both out, is work rate, since those two usually put in impressive shifts.

If Shields is back fully fit then I would expect him to come in at 6 ahead of Robshaw.  However, as has been mooted we could well see him at 8 as it would be a huge ask for a relatively young and inexperienced Mercer to play 3 internationals in a row.  Morgan would be the obvious straight replacement for Billy as a ball carier - EJ would need to show an about turn though which he is not always keen to do.  I was impressed with Kvesic for Exeter and I think Harrison always puts in a shift in for Northampton and has been unfairly tagged for a couple of performances as a young/inexperienced player - but again either would require a major about turn by EJ.  On past performance I would expect EJ to pick his favourite players and then shoehorn someone from that list into the 6/8 shirt as required, rather than going for a specialist who is not in his list of favourites.

I don't think Marler should be asked to come back for the Autumn internationals, or he would agree - we need to go to the next in line be it Hepburn,  Val Rapava-Ruskin, Ben Moon, etc.

Shields has not done anything (yet) to demand inclusion instead of Robshaw.

If jones decides to go with mercer at 8 he may be persuaded towards armond at 6 or 7. Morgan could come in and we could see mercer at 6.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If jones decides to go with mercer at 8 he may be persuaded towards armond at 6 or 7. Morgan could come in and we could see mercer at 6.

I think Mercer has huge potential but I think he needs more muscle to really make an impact at international level. At the weekend he showed smart passing but looked very lightweight vs Toulouse

I was watching his clear outs closely personally. Very very good. The only turn over I remember him being near is when he carried well into contact and his team mates were slow to clear. He's not a traditional big carrier but where england lack is clearing quick ball. We're going to be lacking launchbury here as well but mercer and Kruis may make a positive impact imo.

Robshaw ruled out.

Ugo Monye was right about Robshaw, then.

The biggest problem I have with the back row selection is that I don't know enough about what the number eight position requires. Are players like Haskell, Shields, Kvesic etc legitimate Test operators there, or just club makeshift players? If we go for a lesser-spotted number eight, does that mean we need two big lumps as flankers to compensate?

Rugby Fan wrote:Ugo Monye was right about Robshaw, then.

The biggest problem I have with the back row selection is that I don't know enough about what the number eight position requires. Are players like Haskell, Shields, Kvesic etc legitimate Test operators there, or just club makeshift players? If we go for a lesser-spotted number eight, does that mean we need two big lumps as flankers to compensate?

The only thing an 8 needs to do is to be able that a flanker can't is to clean up the ball at the back of the scrum.

The real issue is about backrow/pack balance and strategy.

In terms of attacking alone:
Do you have enough carrying strength across the pack?
Do you have enough pacey players to get a players into the wide channels, especially off first phase to clear out (assuming you are attempting to attack wide channels from first phase)?
Do you have enough ball playing forwards (assuming you want to use forwards as ball players)?
Do you have enough players who can clear opposition jackals (especially if the opposition are playing several renowned jackals - e.g. Australia)?
Do you have a third line-out option?

In terms of defence, the main two are:
Do you have enough players who can put in big hits (especially if the opposition rely on a couple of big carriers)?
Do you have enough players who can slow down or turnover opposition ball?

If England pick Morgan at 8, might want a bit of pace and a line-out option elsewhere to balance it out. If they pick Mercer, then they'll need to make sure they have a bigger carrier in there somewhere - especially if Mako is out.

England could pick a flanker at 8 if they had the required skills at the back of the scrum if they felt it better balanced their side. E.g. if they are playing bulkier flankers (Lawes and Haskell, for example) they might want Kvesic to get to the wide channels in attack and slow down opposition ball in defence.

The truth is without a few players who can tick a number of boxes, you won't be able to answer yes to all of those questions. England at their 2016 best used Robshaw, Haskell and Vunipola in the back row which was probably a bit down on pace and line-out. But with Haskell making big hits and clearouts, Robshaw slowing down ball and ability to link play and Vunipola's carrying we were pretty well rounded.

Is it something in the water or just plain bad luck......or maybe theres other issues at play?
RU in england appears to have lost its way.

This happens almost every autumn internationals I remember around 2009 when Martin Johnson having about 18 first team players injured, and playing Duncan Bell and Erinlie and Goode

Lowoski is likely to cop a significant ban after two citings for foul play in the same match.

Whilst hes hardly a first choice its not getting any better

This could be used to blood some youngsters then. Realistically we aren't going to be favourites or expected to do much. Play promising players and look at how well we play rather than results? Joe cokansigna, Mercer, Earle, marchant, see if Slade can play 12, give Manu some game time. Experiment a little?

Think you always have to go for results but that doesn't mean you should be rigid in approach. We have some forced changes anyway obviously but there are those players you mentioned above and perhaps williams from Newcastle who are pushing for a cap or 2 due to their performances rather than experimentation anyway. Results do matter but our pack has taken a big hit so need to be realistic that we may be playing on the back foot initially at least.

That's a shame if Lozowski cops a ban - haven't seen footage so no idea if there is a case to answer or not (presumably there is if he's cited).
He had a chance of starting 13 but more likely a bench option. Lets hope Slade stays in 1 piece.
Marchant has been playing better for Quins and been in the squads a number of times.
Does anyone know if Trinder is fit?

Apparently he's been cited due to the 2 incidents both being considered as possible yellows.

Two week ban - so available for England.

Alex Lozowski has been suspended for two weeks following an independent disciplinary hearing in London last night (Tuesday 16th October) arising from the Heineken Champions Cup, Round 1 match against Glasgow Warriors at Scotstoun. 
Lozowski was cited for two acts of foul play by the match citing commissioner, Tim Lowry (Ireland), for dangerously entering a ruck and making contact with Glasgow hooker, Fraser Brown, in the 15th minute of the match in contravention of Law 9.20, and for allegedly tackling full-back, Ruaridh Jackson, dangerously in the 33rd minute of the match in contravention of Law 9.13.

In respect of the citing complaint concerning the alleged dangerous tackle, the committee heard additional evidence by phone from Ruaridh Jackson and subsequently decided to dismiss the complaint on the basis that Lozowski had not committed an act of foul play. 

In respect of the citing complaint concerning the incident at the ruck, the committee upheld the complaint as it determined that Lozowski had committed an act of foul play that warranted a red card. It found that the offence was at the low end of World Rugby’s sanctions and two weeks was selected as the appropriate entry point.

Lozowski is free to play on Monday 29th October. Both he and EPCR have the right to appeal the decision.

Wow. Amazed by that. Should have been a few more reds in that and every game I've watched then.