The Shocking standard of the Pro14

First topic message reminder :

Having been watching it since it was the original Celtic league and looking at comments about it online in all those years it's fair to say it's the most controversial competition in world rugby. There are always problems popping up that it could do without. No exaggeration to say it has a way to go yet.


What I've noticed in the last few years is the standard of play. It has dramatically improved!!!


Starting off with Glasgow's rise to win the competition. Then we had Connacht coming from nowhere to win it. Then the Scarlets won it in style. Those teams won by playing attractive running rugby.


Then last year Leinster won again after they've become one of the best non international teams in the world. Also last year we had Benetton and Zebre getting their act together and become hard teams to beat, especially Benetton. Edinburgh have become a tough team to beat too, much improved from previous years.


The South Africans are weak but they've added something exotic to the league. Cheetahs do look weaker than last season (too early to judge) but Kings look improved so far. After 2 poor seasons the buzz is back in Connacht and Cardiff are showing good signs.


So all in all the standard has improved greatly. That's putting the pressure on other traditionally strong sides like Munster, Ospreys and Ulster, which is no harm.


The league isn't without problems which are constantly highlighted so I though I'd take a look at the big picture for a change.

SecretFly wrote:Okay, who has the sense-of-humour allergy?

It’s not me. I always take you seriously.

Much obliged Pot. I do say something serious about three times a year so I appreciate you holding out for those precious moments.

But I was kinda referring to Oracle's working men's club comment. The poor guy looks like he got every red light/warning/reprimand that is possible for a poster to get for his little joke. Someone really melted under the strain of that one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45701315

Wowzers!

Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison, the Jeff even less so.

You have Saracens > Exeter > Everyone else.

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

One of Leinster or Munster have appeared in every single one of the last 11 finals. That's dominance. And good on them.

bsando wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45701315

Wowzers!

Impressive scrummager but doesn't get a look in at Zebre, one of those players with big attitude problems.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

One of Leinster or Munster have appeared in every single one of the last 11 finals. That's dominance. And good on them.

I'd agree with you. The last couple of seasons Glasgow and Scarlets have been right up there, and going back towards the front end of those 11 seasons it was Ulster and Ospreys that were regular threats up towards the top 4 of the table.

Connacht were the real bolter under Pat Lam for a couple of seasons, along with the Blues and Edinburgh those 3 have flirted with both ends of the tables over the years.

Dragons and Treviso have flattered to deceive a number of times that they were about to really turn the corner and kick on. Zebre feels like a club that has had to reset itself every two seasons until now (now they might just about be primed to be relevant).

Is it way too early to judge either of the SA teams, sample size is too small and squads were gutted during the uncertainty that existed before they shifted to pro14. Out of the 2, Cheetahs feel closest to contending with a lovely open style of play and the home advantage might put them in the Connacht/Blues/Edinburgh bracket while Kings have the feel of Zebre about them.

That would still have it as 6 in the front pack (Leinster, Munster, Glasgow, Scarlets, Osprey, Ulster), 4 with the ability in any season to break into the playoffs and make a long shot run at the grand final (Connacht, Blues, Edinburgh, Cheetahs), 2 with aspirations of getting the hunt for a post-season game (Dragons, Treviso) and 2 that are happy to exist (Zebre and Kings).

You could easily argue some of the teams between buckets (maybe blues/edinburgh up a level and drop osprey and ulster back, maybe flip Zebre and Treviso, maybe I'm harsh on Cheetahs) but I think the league splits into 6-4-2-2 (contenders, longshots, fighting for middle, happy to exist).

While Leinster/Munster have made the final for so many seasons there are 6 that can put a good argument forward to win the league and another 4 teams that can make things interesting.

Would that be a wider net than the Jeff (Saracens/Exeter are the two contenders in reality). Top14 does seem to vary far more.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

One of Leinster or Munster have appeared in every single one of the last 11 finals. That's dominance. And good on them.

Except there haven't been 11 finals

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

One of Leinster or Munster have appeared in every single one of the last 11 finals. That's dominance. And good on them.

Except there haven't been 11 finals

At this point I just pity you really.

A pedant will say there has only been one Pro14 final. However most will view the current competition as an extension of the Pro12 and before that the Celtic League, which had its first final in December 2001 ( Leinster v Munster). Looking at the website this appears to be the official view.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

One of Leinster or Munster have appeared in every single one of the last 11 finals. That's dominance. And good on them.

Except there haven't been 11 finals

At this point I just pity you really.

Why? Because I point out your claim is wrong? Sorry for dealing in facts

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:Pro14 is certainly getting more competitive - in comparison.

Is it? The top few teams in the pro14 are normally guaranteed to be the same each year.

Define top few

One of Leinster or Munster have appeared in every single one of the last 11 finals. That's dominance. And good on them.

Except there haven't been 11 finals

marty, I ask these questions sincerely, is there nothing you will agree with on here ? Or even see where people have a point ? Or even see where people are coming from ?

It's always as if it's your mission on here to prove people wrong, no matter what. Sometimes nobody is right or wrong, they just see things differently. That's the beauty of an open forum. The one thing that annoys me most on here, and you are not alone, but it's the constant asking of proof, or links, or facts.

Sometimes it's a worry to even type anything, because you just know somebody is going to come along behind you and try and win the internet.

I knew exactly what he was on about when he said 11 finals, and I suspect you did as well.

"I knew exactly what he was on about when he said 11 finals, and I suspect you did as well. OK "

Have you any proof of the above? Links perhaps?

Pete330v2 wrote:"I knew exactly what he was on about when he said 11 finals, and I suspect you did as well. OK "

Have you any proof of the above? Links perhaps?

LordDowlais wrote:Sometimes nobody is right or wrong, they just see things differently.

You are sincerely saying that? Seriously

Either there have been 11 finals or not, that's a matter of fact not opinion

Why is it you struggle with the difference between the two?

I knew exactly what he was on about when he said 11 finals, and I suspect you did as well

That's good for you, so did I but did RF?

So how many finals have there been over the years in the league where the aforementioned teams have been around about the top?!

And while we’re being pedantic technically the Dragons have only had one full season in the league -2017/18. Before that it was ‘Newport Gwent Dragons’, a wholly different outfit

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sometimes nobody is right or wrong, they just see things differently.

You are sincerely saying that? Seriously

Either there have been 11 finals or not, that's a matter of fact not opinion

Why is it you struggle with the difference between the two?

I knew exactly what he was on about when he said 11 finals, and I suspect you did as well

That's good for you, so did I but did RF?

God help you marty.

LordDowlais wrote:

God help you marty.

I don't think that's the kind of help he needs unfortunately.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

God help you marty.

I don't think that's the kind of help he needs unfortunately.

So rather than correct yourself, you resort to this?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

God help you marty.

I don't think that's the kind of help he needs unfortunately.

So rather than correct yourself, you resort to this?

Best of luck in the future Marty.

Lets deal in some facts, there have been 9 finals. There have been 7 different teams in those finals with 6 different champions. In the same time frame in England there were 6 finalists with 5 winners yet the Pro14 is less competitive

Funny how facts contradict some of the silliness on here

marty2086 wrote:Lets deal in some facts, there have been 9 finals. There have been 7 different teams in those finals with 6 different champions. In the same time frame in England there were 6 finalists with 5 winners yet the Pro14 is less competitive

Funny how facts contradict some of the silliness on here

Plus all but one of the last 11 finals have had either Leicester or Saracens in it, talk about dominance

marty2086 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Lets deal in some facts, there have been 9 finals. There have been 7 different teams in those finals with 6 different champions. In the same time frame in England there were 6 finalists with 5 winners yet the Pro14 is less competitive

Funny how facts contradict some of the silliness on here

Plus all but one of the last 11 finals have had either Leicester or Saracens in it, talk about dominance

You could have strengthened you argument by saying "all but one of the last 13 finals"

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Lets deal in some facts, there have been 9 finals. There have been 7 different teams in those finals with 6 different champions. In the same time frame in England there were 6 finalists with 5 winners yet the Pro14 is less competitive

Funny how facts contradict some of the silliness on here

Plus all but one of the last 11 finals have had either Leicester or Saracens in it, talk about dominance

You could have strengthened you argument by saying "all but one of the last 13 finals"    

It's an open forum sure, I can present whatever pi$$poor argument I want regardless of the facts

But yeah ...what you said Oracle

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Lets deal in some facts, there have been 9 finals. There have been 7 different teams in those finals with 6 different champions. In the same time frame in England there were 6 finalists with 5 winners yet the Pro14 is less competitive

Funny how facts contradict some of the silliness on here

Plus all but one of the last 11 finals have had either Leicester or Saracens in it, talk about dominance

You could have strengthened you argument by saying "all but one of the last 13 finals"    

It's an open forum sure, I can present whatever pi$$poor argument I want regardless of the facts

But yeah ...what you said Oracle

It was either 11 finals or not. The record books show 13. That's a FACT. Are you going to apologise and admit your error?!

(just messing!)

It's crazy to think Ospreys have 4 final wins and no losses. Leinster and Munster make finals but they lose a lot too.

Must look at the top 6 for the last 10 years compared to other leagues.

Brendan wrote:It's crazy to think Ospreys have 4 final wins and no losses. Leinster and Munster make finals but they lose a lot too.

Must look at the top 6 for the last 10 years compared to other leagues.

The Osprey had a class side for a number of seasons. Take it when Neath were runners up in the early days that outfit was vastly difference to the Ospreys?

Neither Leinster nor Munster could carry a peak in both Europe and Pro12 over the years.  Three seasons of Leinster going HC, Amlin, HC winners were combined with 3 pro12 finals loses (2 of which were to Ospreys).  It's only this year just gone that Leinster managed to pick up both Europe and League but the schedule around the finals is more manageable than historically.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty, I ask these questions sincerely, is there nothing you will agree with on here ? Or even see where people have a point ? Or even see where people are coming from ?

It's always as if it's your mission on here to prove people wrong, no matter what. Sometimes nobody is right or wrong, they just see things differently. That's the beauty of an open forum. The one thing that annoys me most on here, and you are not alone, but it's the constant asking of proof, or links, or facts.

Sometimes it's a worry to even type anything, because you just know somebody is going to come along behind you and try and win the internet.

I knew exactly what he was on about when he said 11 finals, and I suspect you did as well.

If his mission has always been to prove people wrong on here then he's nothing but an epic failure. He couldn't even get right the basic structures of Irish rugby.

How could he? Irish rugby is veiled in secrecy

I think you mean corruption and sweeping under the carpet, Fly. Having said that, maybe ‘mystery’ is correct

Oh I do mean corruption and sweeping under the carpet, Cyril.  I was being euphemistic coz of the kids here who might get offended by bad words and things...

Yes for course, Irish rugby is the most vile, vicious and deceitful sporting code in de woyld.  Phil's got all the boring stats and links and stuff.  Hearty reading indeed for insomniacs and finance nerds.

Pro14 asking fans to fill out a survey about the leagues future

https://goodform.researchfeedback.net/wh/s.asp?k=153849216614

Just did the survey they have some details in there and a lot of things we speak about on here

Brendan wrote:Just did the survey they have some details in there and a lot of things we speak about on here

You'd actually swear they got all their ideas and queries directly from this site. Lord D, and that Irish pal of his that he met on holiday, must have taken the Pro14 admin guys hostage.

http://www.the42.ie/pro14-referees-greg-garner-interview-4269016-Oct2018/

Seems a lot has been done behind the scenes with reffing and match fees are now paid by the Pro 14 and not the Union.

They did have a pre season meet up in Dublin and the head is ex-IRFU so clearly an IRFU plot to keep Leinster winning. They seem to never complain about the ref and get lots of penalties

Should also say the fight for second and 3rd this season in both conferences is a good race for sure. Interesting if Connacht and Beneton can keep up the pace

marty2086 wrote:Pro14 asking fans to fill out a survey about the leagues future

https://goodform.researchfeedback.net/wh/s.asp?k=153849216614

Well, well, well.


Of course there are no problems with the league, yet they feel the need to do a survey asking questions about things I have been trying to talk about on here. Perhaps now the league itself feels inclined to do this then people can stop the vitriol they have for me.

Or is the Guinness Pro14 now just as paranoid as I am ? Are they talking as much crap as I am ?

Nice to see they are finally recognising some of the burning issues.

Que the red bars and insults.

Except no one anywhere has said there are no problems and everyone on here has said there is room for improvement. The Premier League etc hold fan surveys all the time too as do clubs, so wanting to know how the fans think the league can be improved is merely engaging with stakeholders as many successful businesses do

Anything the league is doing to bring interpetation of the hemispheres together is a good thing. Hopefully we can all try to apply the laws as meant!

Brendan wrote:http://www.the42.ie/pro14-referees-greg-garner-interview-4269016-Oct2018/

Seems a lot has been done behind the scenes with reffing and match fees are now paid by the Pro 14 and not the Union.

They did have a pre season meet up in Dublin and the head is ex-IRFU so clearly an IRFU plot to keep Leinster winning.  They seem to never complain about the ref and get lots of penalties

An extract from that article:

The 13 referees that make up the Pro14′s elite squad – including the likes of Nigel Owens, John Lacey, Stuart Berry, Ben Whitehouse and Marius Mitrea – are employees of their respective unions, but Garner is driving everyone to work as a Pro14 refereeing unit.

I do not believe the conspiracy theories that routinely paint refs as biased against particular countries - far more often (substituting incompetence for stupidity) and Hanlon's Razor can apply. Yet to be whiter than white, should the refs be employed by the Pro14?

LondonTiger wrote:
An extract from that article:

The 13 referees that make up the Pro14′s elite squad – including the likes of Nigel Owens, John Lacey, Stuart Berry, Ben Whitehouse and Marius Mitrea – are employees of their respective unions, but Garner is driving everyone to work as a Pro14 refereeing unit.

I do not believe the conspiracy theories that routinely paint refs as biased against particular countries - far more often (substituting incompetence for stupidity) and Hanlon's Razor can apply. Yet to be whiter than white, should the refs be employed by the Pro14?

They aren't, it's usually the Irish refs who get the brunt of the conspiracies yet the stats at least from a year or two ago showed the Irish teams fared better with refs from other countries than the Irish refs yet you still get the tinfoil hat brigade spouting talk of bias etc

LondonTiger wrote:I do not believe the conspiracy theories that routinely paint refs as biased against particular countries - far more often (substituting incompetence for stupidity) and Hanlon's Razor can apply. Yet to be whiter than white, should the refs be employed by the Pro14?

100% agree. I have been on about this for ages, but I have just been told over and over the exact thing that marty has said above.

I have always said, the officials should be employed by the league not the unions. I am glad there are people with more sense than some of the members on here who also see that.

So you're happy with this set up refs then lord?

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I do not believe the conspiracy theories that routinely paint refs as biased against particular countries - far more often (substituting incompetence for stupidity) and Hanlon's Razor can apply. Yet to be whiter than white, should the refs be employed by the Pro14?

100% agree. I have been on about this for ages, but I have just been told over and over the exact thing that marty has said above.

I have always said, the officials should be employed by the league not the unions. I am glad there are people with more sense than some of the members on here who also see that.

And what have you been told? Actual stats and facts?

The only reason for the refs being employed by the League is to try to prevent conspiracy theorists insisting they apply a national bias. It will not make them any better.

Now I do not watch the Pro12 very much, but looking at their referees in Europe the standard does not look great. The standard of refereeing is pretty poor in the GP right now too (and I would argue even worse in the southern hemisphere). Even then it is extremely rare for a ref's errors to decide a match. Players themselves make far too many mistakes for that.

It is really hard to be a ref now with pretty much every game filmed with multiple cameras. Switch to League contracts could at least remove one of the sticks that is used (imo unfairly) to beat refs with.

I want the refs employed by the league, refereeing the Pro14 way. Not employed by the unions reffing the Welsh way, or the Irish way or the Scottish way and so forth.

All refs under one umbrella all singing from the same hymn sheet. Now thats not too much to ask is it ?

LordDowlais wrote:I want the refs employed by the league, refereeing the Pro14 way. Not employed by the unions reffing the Welsh way, or the Irish way or the Scottish way and so forth.

All refs under one umbrella all singing from the same hymn sheet. Now thats not too much to ask is it ?

I thought you wanted them paid by the same organisation, funny how you've changed your story

Not to mention they do all sing from the same hymnsheet, they are selected and coached by the Pro14 refs and it will happen exactly the same way going forward

LondonTiger wrote:The only reason for the refs being employed by the League is to try to prevent conspiracy theorists insisting they apply a national bias. It will not make them any better.

It will not make the refs better, but it will take away one blight the league has on itself, and its an improvement. It's a step in the right direction. Any negative news is not good news, and people complaining about bias, rightly or wrongly, is negative news.