The Shocking standard of the Pro14

First topic message reminder :

Having been watching it since it was the original Celtic league and looking at comments about it online in all those years it's fair to say it's the most controversial competition in world rugby. There are always problems popping up that it could do without. No exaggeration to say it has a way to go yet.


What I've noticed in the last few years is the standard of play. It has dramatically improved!!!


Starting off with Glasgow's rise to win the competition. Then we had Connacht coming from nowhere to win it. Then the Scarlets won it in style. Those teams won by playing attractive running rugby.


Then last year Leinster won again after they've become one of the best non international teams in the world. Also last year we had Benetton and Zebre getting their act together and become hard teams to beat, especially Benetton. Edinburgh have become a tough team to beat too, much improved from previous years.


The South Africans are weak but they've added something exotic to the league. Cheetahs do look weaker than last season (too early to judge) but Kings look improved so far. After 2 poor seasons the buzz is back in Connacht and Cardiff are showing good signs.


So all in all the standard has improved greatly. That's putting the pressure on other traditionally strong sides like Munster, Ospreys and Ulster, which is no harm.


The league isn't without problems which are constantly highlighted so I though I'd take a look at the big picture for a change.

Ah. So this doesn't go far enough.

Getting them to ref the Pro14 way is Greg Garners objective in his job as Pro14's Elite Referees Manager. Not sure how changing the employer facilitates that, especially as prospective elite refs will still have to come through their own national pathway.

I feel it does make sense to have the refs employed by the league, but do not believe that would make them either any better or more consistent.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I want the refs employed by the league, refereeing the Pro14 way. Not employed by the unions reffing the Welsh way, or the Irish way or the Scottish way and so forth.

All refs under one umbrella all singing from the same hymn sheet. Now thats not too much to ask is it ?

I thought you wanted them paid by the same organisation, funny how you've changed your story

Not to mention they do all sing from the same hymnsheet, they are selected and coached by the Pro14 refs and it will happen exactly the same way going forward

Technically are they not paid by their employer (so the national union) from funds provided by the Pro14?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I want the refs employed by the league, refereeing the Pro14 way. Not employed by the unions reffing the Welsh way, or the Irish way or the Scottish way and so forth.

All refs under one umbrella all singing from the same hymn sheet. Now thats not too much to ask is it ?

I thought you wanted them paid by the same organisation, funny how you've changed your story

Not to mention they do all sing from the same hymnsheet, they are selected and coached by the Pro14 refs and it will happen exactly the same way going forward

FFS marty, change your'e tune mun.

I have debated this with you more than anyone, you know exactly what I have been saying. Why do you always do this ?

Stop splitting hairs.

Opinions differ, it does not mean that you ALWAYS have to prove people wrong. You are the most annoying person on the internet.

Yup London they are still.employed by the Unions but there is an overview from the league. Something which desperately needs to happen all the over the place at various levels ie European international etc.

I have been bringing this subject up for years, and I have always been shouted down. Now that Greg Garner has come out and basically said the same thing as me, a certain member wants to spin it.

Look, I have always said, it is not about nationality. An Irish ref coming through the Irish system, or a Welsh ref coming through the Welsh system will always be more familiar to said nationalities.

What we need is a group of elite refs all under one umbrella. They could all meet up at the start of the season, and on free weekends, and discuss how they ref certain areas, the breakdown, scrums and so on.

Perhaps they could have an ex ref as the "boss" Allain Rolland or Nigel Owens when he finishes, and he makes the remit. The man in charge can then assess whether each individual ref meets the criteria to become an elite Pro14 ref.

I just think union run teams, and union run refs, opens up a can of worms that the Pro14 just does not need.

The union still employs them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The union still employs them.

No they are employed by the league.

So it's moved on already from the link Brendan posted? You got an article that goes into that detail?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it's moved on already from the link Brendan posted? You got an article that goes into that detail?

I'm sorry I do not know what you are on about. I have just said what I would like to see, not what is happening.

Can yo please make your motives more clear ?

Can you please be more informative with your posts ?

Thought you were talking about the article linked above which is what everyone else were talking to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought you were talking about the article linked above which is what everyone else were talking to.

I was, and I also spoke about what I would like to see happening as well, why are you being such hard work ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I want the refs employed by the league, refereeing the Pro14 way. Not employed by the unions reffing the Welsh way, or the Irish way or the Scottish way and so forth.

All refs under one umbrella all singing from the same hymn sheet. Now thats not too much to ask is it ?

I thought you wanted them paid by the same organisation, funny how you've changed your story

Not to mention they do all sing from the same hymnsheet, they are selected and coached by the Pro14 refs and it will happen exactly the same way going forward

FFS marty, change your'e tune mun.

I have debated this with you more than anyone, you know exactly what I have been saying. Why do you always do this ?

Stop splitting hairs.

Opinions differ, it does not mean that you ALWAYS have to prove people wrong. You are the most annoying person on the internet.

I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in your argument why is that such a problem for you?

You can see where that was a little confusing lord as you flipped between how it works to how you'd like it to work while all the time linking it to the article!

marty2086 wrote:I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in your argument why is that such a problem for you?

Exactly, rather than talk about the subject in hand, you would rather point out inconsistencies, which might I add, you haven't.

Now all of a sudden, we are not talking about the article, we are arguing. Well done.

So please talk about what Greg Garner has said if you like, and I will debate with you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can see where that was a little confusing lord as you flipped between how it works to how you'd like it to work while all the time linking it to the article!

Nope, all I saw was you trying to turn this into some kind of argument by taking down a road that goes away from the article, your the same as marty.

We are not talking about it now. We are now doing this.

Move it back to the article then. It's a good step forward for you but you see a big downfall as the refs are still union employed. I think it's a great thing. Personally think world rugby should be orchestrating more group learning as I said above.
Don't think being paid by the league matters a jot.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in your argument why is that such a problem for you?

Exactly, rather than talk about the subject in hand, you would rather point out inconsistencies, which might I add, you haven't.

Now all of a sudden, we are not talking about the article, we are arguing. Well done.

So please talk about what Greg Garner has said if you like, and I will debate with you.

Can we kiss and make up?

Maybe if you weren't such a sensitive little sausage

So when I said

I thought you wanted them paid by the same organisation, funny how you've changed your story

So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

It isn't showing that little weight should be given to your argument?

Or when I said

Not to mention they do all sing from the same hymnsheet, they are selected and coached by the Pro14 refs and it will happen exactly the same way going forward

That didn't show a clear lack of knowledge on the matter?

marty2086 wrote:So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

How am I complaining about two different things ? If you can call me wanting something as a complaint, that is.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

How am I complaining about two different things ? If you can call me wanting something as a complaint, that is.

Where you give the reasoning as the quality, it used to be bias. You know all this though, you're just trying to turn you failure to maintain a consistent argument on to me as if me calling you out for it is the issue

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

How am I complaining about two different things ? If you can call me wanting something as a complaint, that is.

Where you give the reasoning as the quality, it used to be bias. You know all this though, you're just trying to turn you failure to maintain a consistent argument on to me as if me calling you out for it is the issue

Sorry, I cannot do this with you anymore. I really can't. Christ your hard work.

I have always said, that union controlled refs, and teams, all in one competition is the problem. You know this, and I know this, and all the others that have read this site know this.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

How am I complaining about two different things ? If you can call me wanting something as a complaint, that is.

Where you give the reasoning as the quality, it used to be bias. You know all this though, you're just trying to turn you failure to maintain a consistent argument on to me as if me calling you out for it is the issue

Sorry, I cannot do this with you anymore. I really can't. Christ your hard work.

I have always said, that union controlled refs, and teams, all in one competition is the problem. You know this, and I know this, and all the others that have read this site know this.

My god you are dense

I never said otherwise

You basis for that complaint has changed though, I've put that in writing pretty clearly. What part of that can't you grasp?

You used to want it because of bias, now apparently the issue is the quality?

Not to mention that under the current system the refs are run by the Pro14, so along with being inconsistent you are clueless

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

How am I complaining about two different things ? If you can call me wanting something as a complaint, that is.

Where you give the reasoning as the quality, it used to be bias. You know all this though, you're just trying to turn you failure to maintain a consistent argument on to me as if me calling you out for it is the issue

Sorry, I cannot do this with you anymore. I really can't. Christ your hard work.

I have always said, that union controlled refs, and teams, all in one competition is the problem. You know this, and I know this, and all the others that have read this site know this.

My god you are dense

I never said otherwise

You basis for that complaint has changed though, I've put that in writing pretty clearly. What part of that can't you grasp?

You used to want it because of bias, now apparently the issue is the quality?

Not to mention that under the current system the refs are run by the Pro14, so along with being inconsistent you are clueless

It was always the perception of bias and the fact it was a stick to beat the league with, a conflict of interests. Teams and refs all under the same employer, that was always, and still is the issue for me. I have never said any different.

But yeah, I'm dense.

Do you think if the refs were employed by the league it would stop the moaning and accusations? I don't when you look to other leagues and see people complaining of refs.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So pointing out that you used to complain about one thing and now you're complaining about another thing isn't showing you being inconsistent?

I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

How am I complaining about two different things ? If you can call me wanting something as a complaint, that is.

Where you give the reasoning as the quality, it used to be bias. You know all this though, you're just trying to turn you failure to maintain a consistent argument on to me as if me calling you out for it is the issue

Sorry, I cannot do this with you anymore. I really can't. Christ your hard work.

I have always said, that union controlled refs, and teams, all in one competition is the problem. You know this, and I know this, and all the others that have read this site know this.

My god you are dense

I never said otherwise

You basis for that complaint has changed though, I've put that in writing pretty clearly. What part of that can't you grasp?

You used to want it because of bias, now apparently the issue is the quality?

Not to mention that under the current system the refs are run by the Pro14, so along with being inconsistent you are clueless

It was always the perception of bias and the fact it was a stick to beat the league with, a conflict of interests. Teams and refs all under the same employer, that was always, and still is the issue for me. I have never said any different.

But yeah, I'm dense.

So when you say

It will not make the refs better, but it will take away one blight the league has on itself, and its an improvement.

When you say make then better you meant something else?

Not to mention this load of rubbish

Look, I have always said, it is not about nationality. An Irish ref coming through the Irish system, or a Welsh ref coming through the Welsh system will always be more familiar to said nationalities.

What we need is a group of elite refs all under one umbrella. They could all meet up at the start of the season, and on free weekends, and discuss how they ref certain areas, the breakdown, scrums and so on.

Perhaps they could have an ex ref as the "boss" Allain Rolland or Nigel Owens when he finishes, and he makes the remit. The man in charge can then assess whether each individual ref meets the criteria to become an elite Pro14 ref.

You do realise refs will still come through the national systems? That refs do meet up regularly? And that an ex ref is the boss? That the man in charge does assess whether a ref is up to becoming an elite ref?

It's almost like you didn't actually watch the Season Preview or something

He's said above marty that he's not talking explicitly about the new system but what he wants to see ie refs employed by the league.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's said above marty that he's not talking explicitly about the new system but what he wants to see ie refs employed by the league.

What he's talking about is already happening though, so why would the quality change with a different name of the pay cheque?

Not to mention the refs would still need to be under their individual unions for Test rugby so the problem would still exist

I dnt think it would a jot. His argument is that it would be one less thing for people to complain about. My counter is that you would still get the exact same level of complaint as some are so biased when watching their team they see refs picking on them no matter what.
And yes your last point is still there; lord doesn't see nationality as an issue loads do.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:The only reason for the refs being employed by the League is to try to prevent conspiracy theorists insisting they apply a national bias. It will not make them any better.

It will not make the refs better, but it will take away one blight the league has on itself, and its an improvement. It's a step in the right direction. Any negative news is not good news, and people complaining about bias, rightly or wrongly, is negative news.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but the below would imply the league is paying the refs for reffing.  Yes it comes via the union but if we use that logic the IRFU gave Leinster money for winning the CC not European Rugby.

[quote]The Pro14 has put its money where their mouth is, increasing its funding to the unions for refereeing from €300,000 last year to €1.1million this year.

“For every referee that’s in the Pro14 from the unions, we make a one-off payment to the unions for the year. We’ve also given match fees for everything, whereas before it was only for travel.”
[quote]

Sadly trying to improve reffing by the below isn't seen as enough.  Sadly we can't all build Rome in one day
1. Reviewing every decision made and missed after each game with refs
2. Sending lower refs off to other leagues to get more experience
3. Give detailed feedback to teams
4. Paying travel and match fee instead of just travel
5. Having natural refs at all but one game

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dnt think it would a jot. His argument is that it would be one less thing for people to complain about. My counter is that you would still get the exact same level of complaint as some are so biased when watching their team they see refs picking on them no matter what.
And yes your last point is still there; lord doesn't see nationality as an issue loads do.

Except he's usually the only one complaining about it. As Martin Anayi pointed out, the big complaint he got was usually just an Irish ref being heard given decisions for an Irish team, not who paid them. It's why they were meant to implement the neutral officials for all games but the logistics seemed to have stopped that

marty2086 wrote:Except he's usually the only one complaining about it.

no I'm not.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except he's usually the only one complaining about it.

no I'm not.

So when you said you brought it up before that was a lie?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except he's usually the only one complaining about it.

no I'm not.

So when you said you brought it up before that was a lie?

I wasn't complaining though, was I ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except he's usually the only one complaining about it.

no I'm not.

So when you said you brought it up before that was a lie?

I wasn't complaining though, was I ?

So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

So do you think the moans would stop with league employment of refs lord or more likely continue as it's more about people wanting to complain about something than their own teams performances?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So do you think the moans would stop with league employment of refs lord or more likely continue as it's more about people wanting to complain about something than their own teams performances?

It will take away the conflict of interest pain in the neck stick to beat the league with. It would also add weight against the bias argument as well.

You see, for me, and many others, although not all, nationality is not an issue, it's the fact that teams and referees are both employed by the same unions, and it can take away the question of, how can they be impartial when they are both working for the same taskmaster.

I do not want to look at Pro14 refs as Irish refs, or Welsh refs, I want to look at them as Pro14 refs.

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

complain


/kəmˈpleɪn/


verb

verb: complain; 3rd person present: complains; past tense: complained; past participle: complained; gerund or present participle: complaining

1.

express dissatisfaction or annoyance about something.


So complaining

But you understand that nationality will be a big factor in complaints still? And when you look at any premiership match thread or international thread you'll see the same old complaints. It also muddies the water with internationals as the refs will still be paid for those.
In your own business I'm sure you have roles which oversee others; they won't turn a blind eye to health and safety etc due to be paid by the same firm.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

Tell me how changing the name on the payslip remedies the situation?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

complain


/kəmˈpleɪn/


verb

verb: complain; 3rd person present: complains; past tense: complained; past participle: complained; gerund or present participle: complaining

1.

express dissatisfaction or annoyance about something.


So complaining

Are you for real ?

There is nothing in your post that links expressing concerns and complaining.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

Tell me how changing the name on the payslip remedies the situation?

Because, then, the boss of the ref, is not the same boss of the teams involved.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you understand that nationality will be a big factor in complaints still?

Yes, but you will never get away from that unless you get more refs, something else the league can then look at doing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It also muddies the water with internationals as the refs will still be paid for those.

Why ? Why would that muddy the water ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:In your own business I'm sure you have roles which oversee others; they won't turn a blind eye to health and safety etc due to be paid by the same firm.

Sorry, I do not have a clue about what you are on about here.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

Tell me how changing the name on the payslip remedies the situation?

Because, then, the boss of the ref, is not the same boss of the teams involved.

Except their boss is Greg Garner now and they'd still work for their unions outside of the league

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

Tell me how changing the name on the payslip remedies the situation?

Because, then, the boss of the ref, is not the same boss of the teams involved.

Except their boss is Greg Garner now and they'd still work for their unions outside of the league

I know.

Muddies the water as the refs are still going to have the same boss as you put it lord.
The last bit is in regards to conflict of interest. In a large company you ll have specific roles which oversee others and perhaps across different organisations. There is no trouble for those people to do their jobs instead of big scared that they have the same boss again as you put it. Ou may want to declare conflicts such as being related to someone indeed you should declare that.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

Tell me how changing the name on the payslip remedies the situation?

Because, then, the boss of the ref, is not the same boss of the teams involved.

Except their boss is Greg Garner now and they'd still work for their unions outside of the league

I know.

So you want change to what we have?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you understand that nationality will be a big factor in complaints still?

Yes, but you will never get away from that .

 Something you rarely admit to until chased around a room and cornered, Lord.  The truth is National bias is the MAIN attack point - I repeat, the main attack point - of fans annoyed about ref decisions.  So, like has been said over and over on this topic, an Irish ref will remain an Irish ref, a Scottish ref will remain Scottish...unless he's Irish   Any implied/perceived  bias for an Irish side in decisions made will not automatically disappear simply because a League Company 'employs' the Irish ref.  Fans will still chant and boo the refs, based on where they come from.   So as a solution for trust issues, the single banner 'ownership' argument isn't a logical conclusion.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you understand that nationality will be a big factor in complaints still?

Yes, but you will never get away from that .

 Something you rarely admit to until chased around a room and cornered, Lord.  The truth is National bias is the MAIN attack point - I repeat, the main attack point - of fans annoyed about ref decisions.  So, like has been said over and over on this topic, an Irish ref will remain an Irish ref, a Scottish ref will remain Scottish...unless he's Irish   Any implied/perceived  bias for an Irish side in decisions made will not automatically disappear simply because a League Company 'employs' the Irish ref.  Fans will still chant and boo the refs, based on where they come from.   So as a solution for trust issues, the single banner 'ownership' argument isn't a logical conclusion.

Yes it is, but the league, ultimately needs more refs. More refs from Wales, more refs from Ireland, more refs from Scotland, more refs from Italy and more refs from South Africa.

Some countries need to pull their weight more than others in this respect. But a team of refs, all working for the Pro14. Not the unions.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So you were expressing your dissatisfaction?

I was, as always, expressing my concerns and suggesting how they could be remedied.

Tell me how changing the name on the payslip remedies the situation?

Because, then, the boss of the ref, is not the same boss of the teams involved.

Except their boss is Greg Garner now and they'd still work for their unions outside of the league

I know.

So you want change to what we have?

NO. FFS.

I have already said, I want the refs to be under the employment of the Pro14, not the unions, because we have players, coaches and referees all under the same employer, and it just doesn't sit right with me.