The Shocking standard of the Pro14

First topic message reminder :

Having been watching it since it was the original Celtic league and looking at comments about it online in all those years it's fair to say it's the most controversial competition in world rugby. There are always problems popping up that it could do without. No exaggeration to say it has a way to go yet.


What I've noticed in the last few years is the standard of play. It has dramatically improved!!!


Starting off with Glasgow's rise to win the competition. Then we had Connacht coming from nowhere to win it. Then the Scarlets won it in style. Those teams won by playing attractive running rugby.


Then last year Leinster won again after they've become one of the best non international teams in the world. Also last year we had Benetton and Zebre getting their act together and become hard teams to beat, especially Benetton. Edinburgh have become a tough team to beat too, much improved from previous years.


The South Africans are weak but they've added something exotic to the league. Cheetahs do look weaker than last season (too early to judge) but Kings look improved so far. After 2 poor seasons the buzz is back in Connacht and Cardiff are showing good signs.


So all in all the standard has improved greatly. That's putting the pressure on other traditionally strong sides like Munster, Ospreys and Ulster, which is no harm.


The league isn't without problems which are constantly highlighted so I though I'd take a look at the big picture for a change.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so an irish team can't play a non irish player got you. When is this ban brought in?good to know also hat you can't get this unconcious bias as the refs brains are it'd to know that's only their colleague for 4 weeks in November. Dear me Phil.

What a pile of incoherent nonsense.

I'm guessing it's past the yardarm wherever you are in the world as none of that makes any sense at all.

Maybe you'd like to try posting it again, this time with punctuation and some logic?

The fact that we can even discuss it is enough of a blight for me. Take the subject away, and you have nothing to debate/accuse/moan about, which is a positive step forward for the Pro14.

Having officials, players, coaches all on the same payslip for me just does not sit right. How can we expect the officials to be impartial when they are work colleges with the people they are supposed to be officiating ?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so an irish team can't play a non irish player got you. When is this ban brought in?good to know also hat you can't get this unconcious bias as the refs brains are it'd to know that's only their colleague for 4 weeks in November. Dear me Phil.

What a pile of incoherent nonsense.

I'm guessing it's past the yardarm wherever you are in the world as none of that makes any sense at all.

Maybe you'd like to try posting it again, this time with punctuation and some logic?

I get this a lot with him. I have to tell him that I am sorry, but I do not understand/know what he is on about.

LordDowlais wrote:The fact that we can even discuss it is enough of a blight for me. Take the subject away, and you have nothing to debate/accuse/moan about, which is a positive step forward for the Pro14.

Having officials, players, coaches all on the same payslip for me just does not sit right. How can we expect the officials to be impartial when they are work colleges with the people they are supposed to be officiating ?

Didn't you just advocate refs still being paid by unions as well as the league?

Dear me Phil. Try to follow your own posts strangling themselves to have a pop at the Irish!

Lord I presume you're being disingenuous as plenty would complain about a ref of th same nationality reffing one his countries teams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dear me Phil. Try to follow your own posts strangling themselves to have a pop at the Irish!

Try writing your previous post again. It was incoherent.

And do stop being so dumb as to confuse deliberate with unconscious

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lord I presume you're being disingenuous as plenty would complain about a ref of th same nationality reffing one his countries teams.

See this:

"Ah so an irish team can't play a non irish player got you. When is this ban brought in?good to know also hat you can't get this unconcious bias as the refs brains are it'd to know that's only their colleague for 4 weeks in November"

It's gibberish. Meaningless. Non-sensical. Complete drivel. Try writing it again, if you have a point to make.

Follow your line of discussion you do jump around a lot Phil to try and not be held to your previous arguments.
Do you agree with lord that reffing a team from your homeland won't have unconcious bias or as he has extended it to in this thread; no one will complain on that matter?

Previous point is pretty simple, you believe that there will be no unconcious bias in a league if a ref gets 2 cheque at the end of the month rather than 1 for the exact same money. You can't believe that of you believe res are currently biased?

I remember a year or two ago, a game at Llanelli, I think it was Munster. But I remember there was bloody murders because when the fans were waiting to see the players get of the bus, when the Munster bus turned up, the players, the coaches AND the ref all got off the same bus, yes he was an Irish ref, I think it was Dudley Phillips, anyway, there were cries of the Irish bringing their own ref with them.

How is this good for the league ?

It was later found out that the ref was staying in the same hotel as the players and coaches, and he traveled over from Ireland with them, I guess this is what work colleges do I suppose.

Look, I cannot claim that there is any wrong doing in this, but it starts negativity towards the league, right there and then, in one afternoon, a shed load of bad press. This is not good.

How anybody can argue the toss over things like this is beyond me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Follow your line of discussion you do jump around a lot Phil to try and not be held to your previous arguments.
Do you agree with lord that reffing a team from your homeland won't have unconcious bias or as he has extended it to in this thread; no one will complain on that matter?

What do you mean agree with lord ?

I have not agreed anything. God your hard work.

Except that happens all the time LD, I've heard of Welsh refs doing the same. Pretty sure Nigel Owens and his team came over with Scarlets for a game, so are they colleagues?

marty2086 wrote:Except that happens all the time LD, I've heard of Welsh refs doing the same. Pretty sure Nigel Owens and his team came over with Scarlets for a game, so are they colleagues?

It does not make it right. Whether it's a Welsh ref doing it or anything else.

They are not colleges because Scarlets pay their player and coaches, and the WRU pay Nigel Owens. Two separate entities.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except that happens all the time LD, I've heard of Welsh refs doing the same. Pretty sure Nigel Owens and his team came over with Scarlets for a game, so are they colleagues?

It does not make it right. Whether it's a Welsh ref doing it or anything else.

They are not colleges because Scarlets pay their player and coaches, and the WRU pay Nigel Owens. Two separate entities.

Except you said it's what 'colleges' do, I'm going to phone Queens University and find out if that's true but as since Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU are Nigel Owens is too they are in fact 'colleges' as you call them

marty2086 wrote:Except you said it's what 'colleges' do, I'm going to phone Queens University and find out if that's true but as since Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU are Nigel Owens is too they are in fact 'colleges' as you call them

Where have you got that from ? Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU ? Do you understand what you are claiming ?

The WRU do not pay the internationals for any team, except perhaps Dragons since this season started.

I'm asking Phil whether he agrees with you lord. You yourself simply ignore a point that some will say an irish ref reffing an irish team isn't on. Some people will complain about that. And before you say you never had said otherwise you've stated getting refs paid by a league and people will have nothing to moan about.

Lord did you miss the part of the post where they said only one game didn't involve a neutral ref (not sure what round the piece was up too) which was Owens in Blues v Leinster. Does that not mean the vast majority now have neutral refs. Not sure about ARs but the man with the whistle is all that matters.

The past should be left there as it is not the same as now. It's like be saying the Scottish team are poorly run the the SRU has no money. Fact it is, but about 5 years to late

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except you said it's what 'colleges' do, I'm going to phone Queens University and find out if that's true but as since Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU are Nigel Owens is too they are in fact 'colleges' as you call them

Where have you got that from ? Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU ? Do you understand what you are claiming ?

The WRU do not pay the internationals for any team, except perhaps Dragons since this season started.

So the Welsh players don't get match fees? They don't pay NDCs?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except you said it's what 'colleges' do, I'm going to phone Queens University and find out if that's true but as since Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU are Nigel Owens is too they are in fact 'colleges' as you call them

Where have you got that from ? Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU ? Do you understand what you are claiming ?

The WRU do not pay the internationals for any team, except perhaps Dragons since this season started.

What about NDCs surely the ref wants his NDC buddies to look better than the rest of his/her team. Both get WRU money some must be biased

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except you said it's what 'colleges' do, I'm going to phone Queens University and find out if that's true but as since Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU are Nigel Owens is too they are in fact 'colleges' as you call them

Where have you got that from ? Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU ? Do you understand what you are claiming ?

The WRU do not pay the internationals for any team, except perhaps Dragons since this season started.

? Was it not the new thing that some star Welsh players (in any of the Regions) get top-ups on salary directly from WRU funds?  Did I read all that new development stuff all wrong maybe a year ago?  Was it not a new policy to get star players back playing for regions?  Centralish contracts kinda thing for stars?

One of us has been away from rugby news for too long Lord.  Maybe it's me, but I could'a sworn WRU were involved in certain players returning.

The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

So the WRU pay the clubs?

SecretFly wrote:One of us has been away from rugby news for too long Lord. Maybe it's me, but I could'a sworn WRU were involved in certain players returning.

Yes the WRU want them to return so that they can get access to them, they then pay for that privilege. The thing is Ross Moriarty was offered a NDC but he turned it down for an outright contract with Dragons.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

So the WRU pay the clubs?

I know what you are trying to do here, so please stop "trying" to be clever.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

So the WRU pay the clubs?

I know what you are trying to do here, so please stop "trying" to be clever.

Why can't you answer the question? Do the WRU pay the clubs for access?

Well I think the Pro 14 is doing great work with the refs now that the league has taken over the management of the refs and is working with each union to develop refs in a more joined up approach.  Glad to see them looking to work with players who want to ref latter so that they have a clear path in.  Do hope though all frontrowers know they can't bring on a sub ref when they are tired and anyway we don't want someone who knows scrumming.

Brendan wrote:Well I think the Pro 14 is doing great work with the refs now that the league has taken over the management of the refs and is working with each union to develop refs in a more joined up approach.  Glad to see them looking to work with players who want to ref latter so that they have a clear path in.  Do hope though all frontrowers know they can't bring on a sub ref when they are tired and anyway we don't want someone who knows scrumming.

Yes, I agree.

Still a lot to work on though.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

So the WRU pay the clubs?

I know what you are trying to do here, so please stop "trying" to be clever.

Why can't you answer the question? Do the WRU pay the clubs for access?

So you're not going to answer this LD?

Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Obviously backs in their day with such great feet. Not like the forwards who don't mind the dirty work

Shall we lay out a few facts for you to consider LD?

The WRU pay 60% of national dual contracts here's a BBC article saying so https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45383110

So it would seem those on NDCs are paid by the WRU like the Welsh refs, making them 'colleges' or even colleagues

The WRU pay just over £5k per match to Test players, they also pay image rights fees to players. Players also receive bonuses for the likes of the 6Ns and RWC. In 2015 Welsh players averaged nearly £100k each in payments from the WRU for playing for Wales.

So it would seem anyone who plays for Wales is a colleague of the Welsh refs

colleague


/ˈkɒliːɡ/


noun

noun: colleague; plural noun: colleagues

a person with whom one works in a profession or business.

LordDowlais wrote:I remember a year or two ago, a game at Llanelli, I think it was Munster. But I remember there was bloody murders because when the fans were waiting to see the players get of the bus, when the Munster bus turned up, the players, the coaches AND the ref all got off the same bus, yes he was an Irish ref, I think it was Dudley Phillips, anyway, there were cries of the Irish bringing their own ref with them.

How is this good for the league ?

It was later found out that the ref was staying in the same hotel as the players and coaches, and he traveled over from Ireland with them, I guess this is what work colleges do I suppose.

Look, I cannot claim that there is any wrong doing in this, but it starts negativity towards the league, right there and then, in one afternoon, a shed load of bad press. This is not good.

How anybody can argue the toss over things like this is beyond me.

Were the bloody murders reported? Where is this "shed load of bad press" from that afternoon?

Apparently no one is accusing referees of deliberate bias, and no one can provide any evidence of 'unconscious' bias - so why shouldn't anybody "argue the toss" when there is no proof of a problem?

Careful guys, don't want anyone to possibly be considered to be bullying LD, the poor little lamb

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

So let me get this right then.  

Welsh fans will be duly fooled if an Irish ref (from Munster and who is good friends in social terms with a few Munster players, coz they come from the same rugby circles and their fathers were pals before that)....the Welsh fans will be fooled if that Irish ref drives on his own to the same airport the Munster players are departing from.  They'll be fooled if the Munster ref drives in his own transport (not the bus) to the stadium in Wales?  
By driving in his own transport - and perhaps even choosing a different plane for the journey to Wales - said Munster born and bred coach (oops...ref)will fulfil all the requirements set down to prove he will not be biased in the ensuing game?





DO YIS NOT EVEN CARE ABOUT THE BLOODY PLANET AND GLOBAL WARMING?  

How can any set of fans endanger the planet by making a ref take independent transport to a game that a team bus is already going to?

I should report this stuff to the UN Commission for Human Decency, Diviment and Faux Global Disaster Science!

SecretFly wrote:So let me get this right then.  

Welsh fans will be duly fooled if an Irish ref (from Munster and who is good friends in social terms with a few Munster players, coz they come from the same rugby circles and their fathers were pals before that)....the Welsh fans will be fooled if that Irish ref drives on his own to the same airport the Munster players are departing from.  They'll be fooled if the Munster ref drives in his own transport (not the bus) to the stadium in Wales?  
By driving in his own transport - and perhaps even choosing a different plane for the journey to Wales - said Munster born and bred coach will fulfil all the requirements set down to prove he will not be biased in the ensuing game?





DO YIS NOT EVEN CARE ABOUT THE BLOODY PLANET AND GLOBAL WARMING?  

How can any set of fans endanger the planet by making a ref take independent transport to a game that a team bus is already going to?

I should report this stuff to the UN Commission for Human Decency, Diviment and Faux Global Disaster Science!

For Welsh fans read LD and Phil.

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

You have your own self to blame, marty. Only an out and out Masochist would follow Phil to Twitter. The fires of Mordor must be a better bet for some fun than following Phil to Twitter.

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

You have your own self to blame, marty.  Only an out and out Masochist would follow Phil to Twitter.  The fires of Mordor must be a better bet for some fun than following Phil to Twitter.

I didn't, he attacked one of my comments in response to a post and he went off on his usual spiel about the IRFU

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

Maybe that's because you do things like call him "Phyllis"?  


You really are a dreadful poster

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

Maybe that's because you do things like call him "Phyllis"?  


You really are a dreadful poster

A bit like you and Phil coincidentally posting Martyn?

Does that then make you a dreadful poster?

Come on, Rugbyfan, ya gotta admit you got snared there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Follow your line of discussion you do jump around a lot Phil to try and not be held to your previous arguments.
Do you agree with lord that reffing a team from your homeland won't have unconcious bias or as he has extended it to in this thread; no one will complain on that matter?

Andy Dowellais' point is irrelevant to our conversation, although I can see why you'd like to divert attention away from it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Previous point is pretty simple, you believe that there will be no unconcious bias in a league if a ref gets 2 cheque at the end of the month rather than 1 for the exact same money. You can't believe that of you believe res are currently biased?

All humans are biased. You do understand this, right?

Now try explaining to me how an internal NHS audit is similar to a refereeing decision based on materiality.

Go....

marty2086 wrote:Except that happens all the time LD, I've heard of Welsh refs doing the same. Pretty sure Nigel Owens and his team came over with Scarlets for a game, so are they colleagues?

They don't share the same employer. So: no.

Brendan wrote:Lord did you miss the part of the post where they said only one game didn't involve a neutral ref (not sure what round the piece was up too) which was Owens in Blues v Leinster.  Does that not mean the vast majority now have neutral refs.  Not sure about ARs but the man with the whistle is all that matters.

The past should be left there as it is not the same as now.  It's like be saying the Scottish team are poorly run the the SRU has no money.  Fact it is, but about 5 years to late

And we all saw how Owens orchestrated that game.

Andy? Who's that, Lord? Side stepped question there then Phil. So all humans are biased you've said unconcious here so theyll always have that towards their own union.

The an ology of he nhs is that you do a job you're paid to do which means holding people to account. It doesn't matter who your payslip comes from.

Money gets paid to Welsh players and to refs like owens by the wru does it not?

Brendan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except you said it's what 'colleges' do, I'm going to phone Queens University and find out if that's true but as since Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU are Nigel Owens is too they are in fact 'colleges' as you call them

Where have you got that from ? Scarlets Welsh internationals are paid by the WRU ? Do you understand what you are claiming ?

The WRU do not pay the internationals for any team, except perhaps Dragons since this season started.

What about NDCs surely the ref wants his NDC buddies to look better than the rest of his/her team.  Both get WRU money some must be biased

NDCs are over, by the way.