Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

First topic message reminder :

Italy 3 Nov - Chicago - Ireland 54-7
Argentina 10 Nov Dublin - 28-17
New Zealand 17 Nov Dublin 16-9
USA 24 Nov Dublin - 52-14

November Total - 150-47

Frontrowers
Rory Best 112 (c)
Rob Herring 6
Sean Cronin 63
Niall Scannell 10

Tadhg Furlong 26
Andrew Porter 9
John Ryan 15

Finlay Bealham 8
Cian Healy 81
Dave Kilcoyne 23
Jack McGrath 51


Locks
Tadhg Beirne 3
Iain Henderson 40 USA
Quinn Roux 7
James Ryan 11
Devin Toner 61

Backrowers

Dan Leavy 10
Josh van der Flier 11
Jordi Murphy 23
Sean O’Brien 51
Peter O’Mahony 50 (vc)
Rhys Ruddock 20
Jack Conan 10
CJ Stander 26


Scrumhalves
John Cooney 3
Kieran Marmion 22
Luke McGrath 6

10s
Jonathan Sexton 76 (vc)
Ross Byrne 2
Joey Carbery 14

Centres
Garry Ringrose 15
Robbie Henshaw 36
Will Addison 2
Bundee Aki 10
Sam Arnold 1
Stuart McCloskey 3

Back three
Andrew Conway 8
Keith Earls 70
Rob Kearney 86
Jordan Larmour 7
Jacob Stockdale 12
Darren Sweetnam 3

Maybe, just maybe Schmidt knew Ireland could beat the All Blacks so sent the team out to do just enough without giving too much away...

eirebilly wrote:Maybe, just maybe Schmidt knew Ireland could beat the All Blacks so sent the team out to do just enough without giving too much away...

Yep, good cooments both, and its not that Schmidt needed to have a more expansive game ‘this’ game, which was more about knocking the ABs off, done to perfection and with class, collectively and individually, using their strengths they have now.

The future is where increasing the options will and need to come and he couldnt have a better platform to move forward with. They will need to get a fresh mind in for that. (Aside from Wayne Smith, for me Scott Robertson of the Crusaders would be a very scary addition to this current Irish panel, have never seen a more upbeat, positive coach who really is at ground level with his players, as Schmidt is).

Ireland look to have the building blocks of a real dynasty and the only thing Id question in that respect is the depth...behind the depth. Is the 16-19 year old group there to replace the current crop in two to five years.

In NZ its always there simply because thats whats been happening for, well, ever. Whats changed in ‘fifty?’ Years thats suddenly bringing through better youth...than ‘anyone else’? Is that how strong Irelands foundation is, or will be? What shift has been, or needs to happen, to bring better youth through than most other countries. Thats where your true depth lies.

The world cup would certainly be a good booster for that.

eirebilly wrote:Maybe, just maybe Schmidt knew Ireland could beat the All Blacks so sent the team out to do just enough without giving too much away...

Yep, billy, there is a sense that he's always holding things boringly tight if it's enough to get a job done.

But I keep saying that the efforts to slog through heavy traffic through 80 minutes is very tough on players.  Like Taylor says, you can't really play to such intensity week after week and not pay the price of impact injuries.  Just ask O'Brien - one of our most renowned 'impact' players. He now virtually breaks every time he takes to the field.

We could just ease the job a tad by giving a little more time to stretching the passes and finding the spaces.  Now we CAN do that and have done it.  It's just something we use ever so miserly.  Joe knows what he's at but I often gaze at those gaping unused spaces and wonder, wonder, wonder.

Taylorman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe, just maybe Schmidt knew Ireland could beat the All Blacks so sent the team out to do just enough without giving too much away...

Yep, good cooments both, and its not that Schmidt needed to have a more expansive game ‘this’ game, which was more about knocking the ABs off, done to perfection and with class, collectively and individually, using their strengths they have now.

The future is where increasing the options will and need to come and he couldnt have a better platform to move forward with. They will need to get a fresh mind in for that. (Aside from Wayne Smith, for me Scott Robertson of the Crusaders would be a very scary addition to this current Irish panel, have never seen a more upbeat, positive coach who really is at ground level with his players, as Schmidt is).

Ireland look to have the building blocks of a real dynasty and the only thing Id question in that respect is the depth...behind the depth. Is the 16-19 year old group there to replace the current crop in two to five years.

In NZ its always there simply because thats whats been happening for, well, ever. Whats changed in ‘fifty?’ Years thats suddenly bringing through better youth...than ‘anyone else’? Is that how strong Irelands foundation is, or will be? What shift has been, or needs to happen, to bring better youth through than most other countries. Thats where your true depth lies.

The world cup would certainly be a good booster for that.

I take it you don't follow much NH rugby. The Irish production line is starting to kick into gear. Leinster are producing half the players with the other provinces bringing in a few people. Ireland have young players at each Provience looking to break through. We no longer have a golden generation (which wasn't that golden) but good professional players being churned out that are as good as past heros. BOD v Ringrose, POC v Ryan, Darcy v Henshaw, Stringer v Murrary, Bowe v Stockdale, Hayes v Furlong, Wallace v Leavy, ROG v Sexton, I don't thing anyone of the golden generation would be assured of the place if in today's team. BOD maybe but Ringrose is magical and only 23.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/rugby/25-ireland-players-25-and-under-154381
8 of the 23 that won the final grand slam were under 25. Did not include Henshaw, VDF, Farrel, J McGrath. Now that we are professional the pipeline is pumping.

Brendan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe, just maybe Schmidt knew Ireland could beat the All Blacks so sent the team out to do just enough without giving too much away...

Yep, good cooments both, and its not that Schmidt needed to have a more expansive game ‘this’ game, which was more about knocking the ABs off, done to perfection and with class, collectively and individually, using their strengths they have now.

The future is where increasing the options will and need to come and he couldnt have a better platform to move forward with. They will need to get a fresh mind in for that. (Aside from Wayne Smith, for me Scott Robertson of the Crusaders would be a very scary addition to this current Irish panel, have never seen a more upbeat, positive coach who really is at ground level with his players, as Schmidt is).

Ireland look to have the building blocks of a real dynasty and the only thing Id question in that respect is the depth...behind the depth. Is the 16-19 year old group there to replace the current crop in two to five years.

In NZ its always there simply because thats whats been happening for, well, ever. Whats changed in ‘fifty?’ Years thats suddenly bringing through better youth...than ‘anyone else’? Is that how strong Irelands foundation is, or will be? What shift has been, or needs to happen, to bring better youth through than most other countries. Thats where your true depth lies.

The world cup would certainly be a good booster for that.

I take it you don't follow much NH rugby.  The Irish production line is starting to kick into gear.  Leinster are producing half the players with the other provinces bringing in a few people.  Ireland have young players at each Provience looking to break through.  We no longer have a golden generation (which wasn't that golden) but good professional players being churned out that are as good as past heros. BOD v Ringrose, POC v Ryan, Darcy v Henshaw, Stringer v Murrary, Bowe v Stockdale, Hayes v Furlong, Wallace v Leavy, ROG v Sexton,  I don't thing anyone of the golden generation would be assured of the place if in today's team.  BOD maybe but Ringrose is magical and only 23.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/rugby/25-ireland-players-25-and-under-154381
8 of the 23 that won the final grand slam were under 25.  Did not include Henshaw, VDF, Farrel, J McGrath.  Now that we are professional the pipeline is pumping.

I am actually aware of all that. My question was this:

Is the 16-19 year old group there to replace the current crop in two to five years.

What is it about the last few years that has changed that wasn't there during the last 100 years in terms of youth coming through consistently. Is the game more popular? Has the comp structures changed? Are you feeding boys differently?

What is to stop what happened to England 1999 to 2003 before crashing because this Irish run is the ONLY comparable NH run in the pro era.

T-man

I was thinking the other day about who might be around/involved for RWC'23 cycle and jotted down some names who might make it through with some of the current younger crop:

Wide Squad 60 RWC '23 Possibilities - Irish-born/Parent Qualified only

Hookers: Niall Scannell, James Tracy, Brian Byrne, Adam McBurney, Shane Delahunt (4)
Props: Furlong, Porter, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Peter Dooley, Denis Coulson, Tom O'Toole, Jeremy Loughman, Ciaran Parker (9)
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Tadgh Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Ross Molony, Fineen Wycherley (7)
B/R Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Josh Murphy, Jack Conan, vDF, Dan Leavy, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea, Nick Timoney, Conor Oliver, Sean O'Brien Mk2 (11)
SH: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion, Nick McCarthy, Hugh O'Sullivan, Caolin Blade (5)
OH: Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne, Ciaran Frawley, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Johnny Stewart, Johnny McNicholl, Bill Johnston (8)
Midfield: Henshaw, Ringrose, Conor O'Brien, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, Sammy Arnold, Rory Scannell, Stuart McCloskey, Dan Goggin (8)
Wings: Aaron O'Sullivan, Jacob Stockdale, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton, Iwan Hughes, Calvin Nash (6)
FB: Will Addison, Mike Haley J Larmour(3)

The Age-grade system and structures have been improved immensely in the last 3 years so that each province now has an academy with 18-20 players in each on rolling 1 year contracts for 3 years - that covers the 17-20 age group mainly - guys straight out of school who go to sub-academy, then academy.  So there's 75-80 players in the pipeline in any one year, in addition to the 180 approx players in the senior squads.   Some of them play in a new comp - The Celtic Cup - involving teams from Ireland and Wales and hopefully Scotland from next season.

As a by-the-by, one of those academy graduates is this guy, Angus Curtis, and his brother, Graham, who were born and grew up in Zimbabwe, went to school in SA and moved to Ulster when he finished school. His father and grandfather both played for Ireland - https://www.the42.ie/angus-curtis-ireland-u20s-family-3878244-Mar2018/

Thanks Pot, 17 is about as late as you want to formalise some semblance of a career so that answers that one well. I dont believe we start ours off that young but weve always had players coming through anyway so we get by through sheer love for the sport until they need to start signing things, which, is usually league clubs or overseas sides.
Pacific island migration definitely contributed to our modern game and we are about four generations in since the numbers started growing in the 60s and 70s and all the scouting talk aside those numbers are purely due to island families generally being larger in numbers.

Is it possible, Ireland, similar size in population to NZ could become the northern equivalent of NZ in tems of having a niche in this game where it is able to avoid other distractions and grab a foothold in the same way NZ has.

England will be fighting for 3rd in the 6 Nations with French

6N?

Let me think.  Just on hunches.

England will kick back into life and be a threat.
France will stay 3rd-ish
Wales - they have a bit of a problem I think in being a little of an opposite creature to Ireland.  Where Ireland want to cut down on all the risky (but eye-catching) attack-dog stuff, Wales love getting into those adrenaline induced 'highs' of offloading and darting.  It's good to watch but what happens when it hits juggernauts that close it down?  Then it's beef and slog - if you have it in your arsenal.
Scotland - they're getting more and more like Wales (or is it that Wales are becoming more like them?).  Anyway, they both set out to bamboozle you with 'chaos' creativity.

On paper it looks like the 6N is going to explode with spectacular and audacious back play.  But will it?  
Ireland could be bamboozled out of the competition by one, two or three sides.  But they will come to the contest determined to make these sides sweat blood to get their preferred gameplans moving smoothly.

I think Ireland/England will be fighting for first.

And as people get rattled in here when you make too many predictions that seemingly downgrade their potential, I'll say too that I still wouldn't be surprised or shocked if Wales, Scotland or France take it.  They'll have to play a lot of hard stuff as much as beautiful stuff though to get there.

Surely over the last 5 games (excluding Italy) Ireland have shown they can counter attacking rugby teams.  If Ireland beat Wales in Cardiff that puts them at a disadvantage.  Reason Wales and Scotland finished 2nd and 3rd was they won their home games. England France are playing the strongest team away which puts them at an advantage for second.

Not saying Ireland will win but are favourites

Guesses on who’s playing against USA?

Kilcoyne, Scannell, Porter/Ryan
Henderson, Beirne
Ruddock, Murphy, Conan
McGrath
Carbery
McCloskey, Addison
Sweetnam, Earls
Conway
Herring, Bealham, Ryan, Roux, vDF, Cooney, Byrne, Arnold

I may be the only one but I actually expect Ireland to have an average 6N... Think that Schmidt will have more of an eye on the RWC than the 6N and he will try to give a few of the fringe players more exposure. Short term loss for possible long term gain.

Would he not rather want to keep the momentum?

Ireland is on a hot streak, might not be wise to experiment too much.

Biltong wrote:Would he not rather want to keep the momentum?

Ireland is on a hot streak, might not be wise to experiment too much.

I don't think there is to much of a drop off so giving game time shouldn't affect form.  They can do both

Biltong wrote:Would he not rather want to keep the momentum?

Ireland is on a hot streak, might not be wise to experiment too much.

True but I think that he learnt after the RWC 2014 that it is advisable that all fringe players are fully up to speed and have experience in big games so that any potential injuries will not affect Ireland so greatly.

As Brendan said, the drop off is not that great and it may not affect the team so much but I feel that this is the direction Schmidt will go in.

Brendan wrote:Surely over the last 5 games (excluding Italy) Ireland have shown they can counter attacking rugby teams.  

For sure we can. I'm not saying we can't do the fancy stuff...after all, many of the Irish players come from Leinster - no slouches in the creativity department. All I'm alluding to is emphasis - what certain sides tend to emphasise. We have a structure in Ireland that emphasises what others regard as 'boring' defensive torture play. So sides that want to win the 6N are going to have to go through that.

eirebilly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Would he not rather want to keep the momentum?

Ireland is on a hot streak, might not be wise to experiment too much.

True but I think that he learnt after the RWC 2014 that it is advisable that all fringe players are fully up to speed and have experience in big games so that any potential injuries will not affect Ireland so greatly.

As Brendan said, the drop off is not that great and it may not affect the team so much but I feel that this is the direction Schmidt will go in.

Not sure I agree with that.

Most RWC winning teams had a first choice line up that was selected whenever available.

Look at NZ in 2007, Graham Henry mixed and matched so much he never knew who his best matchday squad was and when it mattered the team didn't gel.

Was I Schmidt I would make one or two changes at most and keep continuity with my best possible squad.

If Schmidt gives a lot of the 6N to a handful of what might be described as the 2nd string or even some 3rd stringers.... obviously alongside some backbone spine 1st teamers. But if he does give a good bit of ^n to those lesser players, I don't think it'll be on his mind that he's sending them out to do okay. He'll want them proving they should be in the WC squad - and that means playing hard enough to win their games.
You can test but still require those player to take the responsibility of trying to win.

eirebilly wrote:I may be the only one but I actually expect Ireland to have an average 6N...

Me too but I think our current average equates to another GS

I so wanna be like rodders.... but my personality won't let me be.

Never looked at that AI prediction thread until this morning. It shocked me - the predictions that were going in for the Ire v AB game. Looks like we're safe, and we'll remain safe. We'd still be dark horse underdogs going into the next WC even if we got to Number 1.

A great reputation to have

Biltong wrote:

Was I Schmidt I would make one or two changes at most and keep continuity with my best possible squad.

There are quite a few WC warm-up games though. And then, Ireland being small Ireland, a lot of extra curricular 'club' work for a large number of Ireland players too. It's a very hard year for certain Irish players who have to wear a lot of hats. So Schmidt will have to manage the game time and save as much as possible some of his big boys from fatigue. They'll have other commitments too running in tandem with International. Provinces will still want respect for their personal ambitions for the year.

Looking at the available props, I think either Porter or Bealham will get game time at LH, maybe with a view to bringing only 5 props to the RWC

Kilcoyne, Scannell, Ryan
Henderson, Beirne
Ruddock, Murphy, Conan
Cooney
Carbery
McCloskey, Arnold
Sweetnam, Conway
Addison
Herring, Bealham, Porter, Roux, vDF, McGrath, Byrne, Earls

the-goon wrote:Looking at the available props, I think either Porter or Bealham will get game time at LH, maybe with a view to bringing only 5 props to the RWC

Statistically props are the most replaced players at RWCs. It was fine taking five props when there were seven man benches and props actually got experience playing both sides at club level. The reason that Law was changed was as much to do with safety as avoiding uncontested scrums. In the professional game now there are no props who can play at Test level equally on both sides.

Add to that the fact that props are almost universally subbed after the third quarter. So if for example Joe only took Healy and McGrath as recognised looseheads and their game time was shared equally in the pool stages, both would have accumulated 160 minutes each before the knockout stages and been involved in every game. To lessen that workload and associated risk of injury Schmidt should have a third LH as a starting option, someone who could at least start one game and bench for another thus reducing the workload on his two mainstays to no more than say two hours each.

All three front row positions require three players as they will all see normal gametime as well as provide continuity cover - something peripheral utility players often never see.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I may be the only one but I actually expect Ireland to have an average 6N...

Me too but I think our current average equates to another GS

Ha true

Pot Hale wrote:T-man

I was thinking the other day about who might be around/involved for RWC'23 cycle and jotted down some names who might make it through with some of the current younger crop:

Wide Squad 60 RWC '23 Possibilities - Irish-born/Parent Qualified only

Hookers: Niall Scannell, James Tracy, Brian Byrne, Adam McBurney, Shane Delahunt (4)
Props: Furlong, Porter, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Peter Dooley, Denis Coulson, Tom O'Toole, Jeremy Loughman, Ciaran Parker (9)
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Tadgh Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Ross Molony, Fineen Wycherley (7)
B/R Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Josh Murphy, Jack Conan, vDF, Dan Leavy, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea, Nick Timoney, Conor Oliver, Sean O'Brien Mk2 (11)
SH: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion, Nick McCarthy, Hugh O'Sullivan, Caolin Blade (5)
OH: Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne, Ciaran Frawley, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Johnny Stewart, Johnny McNicholl, Bill Johnston (8)
Midfield: Henshaw, Ringrose, Conor O'Brien, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, Sammy Arnold, Rory Scannell, Stuart McCloskey, Dan Goggin (8)
Wings: Aaron O'Sullivan, Jacob Stockdale, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton, Iwan Hughes, Calvin Nash (6)
FB: Will Addison, Mike Haley J Larmour(3)

The Age-grade system and structures have been improved immensely in the last 3 years so that each province now has an academy with 18-20 players in each on rolling 1 year contracts for 3 years - that covers the 17-20 age group mainly - guys straight out of school who go to sub-academy, then academy.  So there's 75-80 players in the pipeline in any one year, in addition to the 180 approx players in the senior squads.   Some of them play in a new comp - The Celtic Cup - involving teams from Ireland and Wales and hopefully Scotland from next season.

As a by-the-by, one of those academy graduates is this guy, Angus Curtis, and his brother, Graham, who were born and grew up in Zimbabwe, went to school in SA and moved to Ulster when he finished school.  His father and grandfather both played for Ireland - https://www.the42.ie/angus-curtis-ireland-u20s-family-3878244-Mar2018/

Might make for an interesting separate thread. Some pretty eccentric choices there.

Was thinking of doing 3 Irish teams based on age as a thread. Lot of time to do it though
30+
25-29
Under 25

Would be some good matches

Pot Hale wrote:T-man

I was thinking the other day about who might be around/involved for RWC'23 cycle and jotted down some names who might make it through with some of the current younger crop:

Wide Squad 60 RWC '23 Possibilities - Irish-born/Parent Qualified only

Hookers: Niall Scannell, James Tracy, Brian Byrne, Adam McBurney, Shane Delahunt (4)
Props: Furlong, Porter, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Peter Dooley, Denis Coulson, Tom O'Toole, Jeremy Loughman, Ciaran Parker (9)
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Tadgh Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Ross Molony, Fineen Wycherley (7)
B/R Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Josh Murphy, Jack Conan, vDF, Dan Leavy, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea, Nick Timoney, Conor Oliver, Sean O'Brien Mk2 (11)
SH: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion, Nick McCarthy, Hugh O'Sullivan, Caolin Blade (5)
OH: Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne, Ciaran Frawley, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Johnny Stewart, Johnny McNicholl, Bill Johnston (8)
Midfield: Henshaw, Ringrose, Conor O'Brien, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, Sammy Arnold, Rory Scannell, Stuart McCloskey, Dan Goggin (8)
Wings: Aaron O'Sullivan, Jacob Stockdale, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton, Iwan Hughes, Calvin Nash (6)
FB: Will Addison, Mike Haley J Larmour(3)

The Age-grade system and structures have been improved immensely in the last 3 years so that each province now has an academy with 18-20 players in each on rolling 1 year contracts for 3 years - that covers the 17-20 age group mainly - guys straight out of school who go to sub-academy, then academy.  So there's 75-80 players in the pipeline in any one year, in addition to the 180 approx players in the senior squads.   Some of them play in a new comp - The Celtic Cup - involving teams from Ireland and Wales and hopefully Scotland from next season.

As a by-the-by, one of those academy graduates is this guy, Angus Curtis, and his brother, Graham, who were born and grew up in Zimbabwe, went to school in SA and moved to Ulster when he finished school.  His father and grandfather both played for Ireland - https://www.the42.ie/angus-curtis-ireland-u20s-family-3878244-Mar2018/

The following could all make that 2023 squad.
Ronan Kelleher - Leinster hooker
Aaron Sexton - Ulster winger
Tom Ahern - Munster lock
Sean French - Munster back
Scott Penney - Leinster 7

All outstanding talents at age grade level. Let's see if they can make the step up. Penney is already close to making his Leinster debut.

Brendan wrote:Was thinking of doing 3 Irish teams based on age as a thread. Lot of time to do it though
30+
25-29
Under 25

Would be some good matches

Do it - sounds like good crack!

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:T-man

I was thinking the other day about who might be around/involved for RWC'23 cycle and jotted down some names who might make it through with some of the current younger crop:

Wide Squad 60 RWC '23 Possibilities - Irish-born/Parent Qualified only

Hookers: Niall Scannell, James Tracy, Brian Byrne, Adam McBurney, Shane Delahunt (4)
Props: Furlong, Porter, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Peter Dooley, Denis Coulson, Tom O'Toole, Jeremy Loughman, Ciaran Parker (9)
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Tadgh Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Ross Molony, Fineen Wycherley (7)
B/R Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Josh Murphy, Jack Conan, vDF, Dan Leavy, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea, Nick Timoney, Conor Oliver, Sean O'Brien Mk2 (11)
SH: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion, Nick McCarthy, Hugh O'Sullivan, Caolin Blade (5)
OH: Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne, Ciaran Frawley, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Johnny Stewart, Johnny McNicholl, Bill Johnston (8)
Midfield: Henshaw, Ringrose, Conor O'Brien, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, Sammy Arnold, Rory Scannell, Stuart McCloskey, Dan Goggin (8)
Wings: Aaron O'Sullivan, Jacob Stockdale, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton, Iwan Hughes, Calvin Nash (6)
FB: Will Addison, Mike Haley J Larmour(3)

The Age-grade system and structures have been improved immensely in the last 3 years so that each province now has an academy with 18-20 players in each on rolling 1 year contracts for 3 years - that covers the 17-20 age group mainly - guys straight out of school who go to sub-academy, then academy.  So there's 75-80 players in the pipeline in any one year, in addition to the 180 approx players in the senior squads.   Some of them play in a new comp - The Celtic Cup - involving teams from Ireland and Wales and hopefully Scotland from next season.

As a by-the-by, one of those academy graduates is this guy, Angus Curtis, and his brother, Graham, who were born and grew up in Zimbabwe, went to school in SA and moved to Ulster when he finished school.  His father and grandfather both played for Ireland - https://www.the42.ie/angus-curtis-ireland-u20s-family-3878244-Mar2018/

Might make for an interesting separate thread. Some pretty eccentric choices there.

Be my guest.

Pot Hale wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:T-man

I was thinking the other day about who might be around/involved for RWC'23 cycle and jotted down some names who might make it through with some of the current younger crop:

Wide Squad 60 RWC '23 Possibilities - Irish-born/Parent Qualified only

Hookers: Niall Scannell, James Tracy, Brian Byrne, Adam McBurney, Shane Delahunt (4)
Props: Furlong, Porter, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Peter Dooley, Denis Coulson, Tom O'Toole, Jeremy Loughman, Ciaran Parker (9)
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Tadgh Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Ross Molony, Fineen Wycherley (7)
B/R Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Josh Murphy, Jack Conan, vDF, Dan Leavy, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea, Nick Timoney, Conor Oliver, Sean O'Brien Mk2 (11)
SH: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion, Nick McCarthy, Hugh O'Sullivan, Caolin Blade (5)
OH: Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne, Ciaran Frawley, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Johnny Stewart, Johnny McNicholl, Bill Johnston (8)
Midfield: Henshaw, Ringrose, Conor O'Brien, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, Sammy Arnold, Rory Scannell, Stuart McCloskey, Dan Goggin (8)
Wings: Aaron O'Sullivan, Jacob Stockdale, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton, Iwan Hughes, Calvin Nash (6)
FB: Will Addison, Mike Haley J Larmour(3)

The Age-grade system and structures have been improved immensely in the last 3 years so that each province now has an academy with 18-20 players in each on rolling 1 year contracts for 3 years - that covers the 17-20 age group mainly - guys straight out of school who go to sub-academy, then academy.  So there's 75-80 players in the pipeline in any one year, in addition to the 180 approx players in the senior squads.   Some of them play in a new comp - The Celtic Cup - involving teams from Ireland and Wales and hopefully Scotland from next season.

As a by-the-by, one of those academy graduates is this guy, Angus Curtis, and his brother, Graham, who were born and grew up in Zimbabwe, went to school in SA and moved to Ulster when he finished school.  His father and grandfather both played for Ireland - https://www.the42.ie/angus-curtis-ireland-u20s-family-3878244-Mar2018/

Might make for an interesting separate thread. Some pretty eccentric choices there.

Be my guest.

Faaaaaaaar too lazy.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:T-man

I was thinking the other day about who might be around/involved for RWC'23 cycle and jotted down some names who might make it through with some of the current younger crop:

Wide Squad 60 RWC '23 Possibilities - Irish-born/Parent Qualified only

Hookers: Niall Scannell, James Tracy, Brian Byrne, Adam McBurney, Shane Delahunt (4)
Props: Furlong, Porter, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Peter Dooley, Denis Coulson, Tom O'Toole, Jeremy Loughman, Ciaran Parker (9)
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Tadgh Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Ross Molony, Fineen Wycherley (7)
B/R Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Josh Murphy, Jack Conan, vDF, Dan Leavy, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea, Nick Timoney, Conor Oliver, Sean O'Brien Mk2 (11)
SH: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion, Nick McCarthy, Hugh O'Sullivan, Caolin Blade (5)
OH: Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne, Ciaran Frawley, Harry Byrne, Jack Carty, Johnny Stewart, Johnny McNicholl, Bill Johnston (8)
Midfield: Henshaw, Ringrose, Conor O'Brien, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, Sammy Arnold, Rory Scannell, Stuart McCloskey, Dan Goggin (8)
Wings: Aaron O'Sullivan, Jacob Stockdale, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton, Iwan Hughes, Calvin Nash (6)
FB: Will Addison, Mike Haley J Larmour(3)

The Age-grade system and structures have been improved immensely in the last 3 years so that each province now has an academy with 18-20 players in each on rolling 1 year contracts for 3 years - that covers the 17-20 age group mainly - guys straight out of school who go to sub-academy, then academy.  So there's 75-80 players in the pipeline in any one year, in addition to the 180 approx players in the senior squads.   Some of them play in a new comp - The Celtic Cup - involving teams from Ireland and Wales and hopefully Scotland from next season.

As a by-the-by, one of those academy graduates is this guy, Angus Curtis, and his brother, Graham, who were born and grew up in Zimbabwe, went to school in SA and moved to Ulster when he finished school.  His father and grandfather both played for Ireland - https://www.the42.ie/angus-curtis-ireland-u20s-family-3878244-Mar2018/

Might make for an interesting separate thread. Some pretty eccentric choices there.

Be my guest.

Faaaaaaaar too lazy.

All you have to do is copy the names and put in who you think would be in there. You said some of mine were eccentric, so you must have an opinion. I'm not precious about the list.

When is the USA team announced?

I'm not sure the psychology of these timings is helpful.  Why a 'lesser' game held back as the last game of the AI season?  We play USA.  NZ play Italy.  So it's not even a case that NZ have already a BIG game on their list. (Not saying that Italy couldn't pull a fast one on them, but highly unlikely)

Anyway, why not finish the season with the big one so that all players can then return to their Provinces together.  If these International camps are meant to mimic the settings of a WC, where all players begin to form a collective and feed off each other's energy, it's a little self defeating then to have central players being released back to their Provinces as others linger to face USA on their own.  The intensity at training must dip, the remainers - some of them - must feel the pangs and have a notion of wanting to be back with their pals now in Provinces.  It's kinda like players lingering for a week after the WC final has taken place as their pals head home on the plane.  It's not really a Band of Brothers feeling anymore.

Mini Rant over.............

ps... I said before the AIs that I felt more concerned that we might lose concentration and lose one of the considered smaller games than actually the bigger ones.  I hope the remainers are fired up, fully concentrated and hold up their side of the deal to keep a clean slate.

SecretFly wrote:I'm not sure the psychology of these timings is helpful.  Why a 'lesser' game held back as the last game of the AI season?  We play USA.  NZ play Italy.  So it's not even a case that NZ have already a BIG game on their list. (Not saying that Italy couldn't pull a fast one on them, but highly unlikely)

Anyway, why not finish the season with the big one so that all players can then return to their Provinces together.  If these International camps are meant to mimic the settings of a WC, where all players begin to form a collective and feed off each other's energy, it's a little self defeating then to have central players being released back to their Provinces as others linger to face USA on their own.  The intensity at training must dip, the remainers - some of them - must feel the pangs and have a notion of wanting to be back with their pals now in Provinces.  It's kinda like players lingering for a week after the WC final has taken place as their pals head home on the plane.  It's not really a Band of Brothers feeling anymore.

Mini Rant over.............

ps... I said before the AIs that I felt more concerned that we might lose concentration and lose one of the considered smaller games than actually the bigger ones.  I hope the remainers are fired up, fully concentrated and hold up their side of the deal to keep a clean slate.

What’s the order of pool matches for Ireland next year? Two biggies then two less biggies. If the remainers want to get a spot on the plane, this is their chance to shine.

"Right you riff raff basterdes without a hope in hell of playing in any WC game that I'm ever in charge of - do yourselves a favour and for once act like you might be worth a spot on a Provincial bench!  This is the USA - pretend you're at the WC coz it's the closest you're going to get.  Now go out there..................... and enjoy yourselves"

Jesus, never knew Schmidt was such a Bitch!

Addison starts at 15
Cooney at 9
Ringtones 13
The rest pretty much as expected

15. Will Addison (Enniskillen/Ulster) 2
14. Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 8
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 16


12. Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 2
11. Darren Sweetnam (Cork Constitution/Munster) 2
10. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 15
9. John Cooney (Terenure College/Ulster) 3
1. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 23
2. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 10
3. Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 8
4. Tadhg Beirne (Munster) 3
5. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 41
6. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 20 captain
7. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 25
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 10

Replacements
16. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 6
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 83
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 15
19. Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 7
20. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 12
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 9
22. Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 1
23. Sam Arnold (Garryowen/Munster) *

Interesting, probably a stronger team than expected.

That is a very exciting looking center partnership and although Henshaw and Aki are well ahead of McCloskey, on paper he compliments Ringrose very well and vice versa.

Looking forward to seeing Addison at 15, of all the fringe players I think he is the one with the most potential to bring a bit of x-factor in attack and add something different to the team.

That's a very dynamic second row partnership as well, I think Henderson needs a big game to silence his critics a bit and likewise Beirne to keep the pressure on those ahead of him.

SecretFly wrote:"Right you riff raff basterdes without a hope in hell of playing in any WC game that I'm ever in charge of - do yourselves a favour and for once act like you might be worth a spot on a Provincial bench!  This is the USA - pretend you're at the WC coz it's the closest you're going to get.  Now go out there..................... and enjoy yourselves"

Jesus, never knew Schmidt was such a Bitch!

To be fair anyone who plays badly will be marked off any WC list. I am not sure if anyone has fallen off the plane yet. Hope for the 6Nations he keeps a squad for the whole 7/8 weeks like a pre-Wc. The weeks off he can do a game behind close doors which if done properly will be as good as a real game

Brendan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:"Right you riff raff basterdes without a hope in hell of playing in any WC game that I'm ever in charge of - do yourselves a favour and for once act like you might be worth a spot on a Provincial bench!  This is the USA - pretend you're at the WC coz it's the closest you're going to get.  Now go out there..................... and enjoy yourselves"

Jesus, never knew Schmidt was such a Bitch!

To be fair anyone who plays badly will be marked off any WC list.  I am not sure if anyone has fallen off the plane yet.  Hope for the 6Nations he keeps a squad for the whole 7/8 weeks like a pre-Wc.  The weeks off he can do a game behind close doors which if done properly will be as good as a real game

Well I think the reality for most of these guys is that they are probably not penciled in for the RWC squad, which looks fairly defined at this stage. That said a lot can happen in 12 months and a few injuries and people will be required to step up.

One of Schmidt's priorities for this year was to improve the quality and attitude of the fringe players as part of the strategy to have a minimum of 3 options in each position.

It looks to me that things are on track but this will be an important test of that depth. The fact they've sent Ringrose back out shows they are taking this on very seriously as it is one of the last opportunities to really experiment in a competitive game.

Slightly surprised to see Addison at FB. Have Ulster played him there? Cannot remember him doing it at Sale.

LondonTiger wrote:Slightly surprised to see Addison at FB. Have Ulster played him there? Cannot remember him doing it at Sale.

He's definitely started one game there but more recently has been filling in at center. I do think Ulster see him more as a 15 though and expect McCloskey and Marshall to be first choice when fit with Addison at full back.

Has Trump announced USA team yet?

Pie wrote:Has Trump announced USA team yet?

Yes, yes he has. He's building a wall.

Pie wrote:Has Trump announced USA team yet?

Haha. There are too many immigrants on the team, he had to cancel the game.

The USA do the Haka too!  We're spoiled this season.

spread is 37 points, reckon we'll beat that?

the-goon wrote:spread is 37 points, reckon we'll beat that?

I don't. The US aren't that bad.

I'd presume it all comes down to what we can do to them in a second half.  If we get into a rhythm then it could be a high scoring second half.

On the USA.  I'm hearing that they've remained unbeaten this entire 2018.  I assume that means genuine Internationals.  That score on the 3rd of this month against the Maori All Blacks sobers up the record somewhat.

Don't doubt that they could punish a dysfunctional Irish side... even a card could swing such a game if discipline isn't managed.  So it might not be a walkover - and that Scottish result will inform Irish minds too - but still, 59 by an non-International side (albeit NZ based) is a score you can't just ignore when totting up 2018.

SecretFly wrote:I'd presume it all comes down to what we can do to them in a second half.  If we get into a rhythm then it could be a high scoring second half.

On the USA.  I'm hearing that they've remained unbeaten this entire 2018.  I assume that means genuine Internationals.  That score on the 3rd of this month against the Maori All Blacks sobers up the record somewhat.

Don't doubt that they could punish a dysfunctional Irish side... even a card could swing such a game if discipline isn't managed.  So it might not be a walkover - and that Scottish result will inform Irish minds too - but still, 59 by an non-International side (albeit NZ based) is a score you can't just ignore when totting up 2018.

That game against the Maori was outside the international window, so they were missing some of their top players. That result does however expose their severe lack of depth in the squad but their new pro league is working on fixing that.