England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.

Thanks LT. I see you have a time for the team announcement. Is there any reliable place to see what time England training squads and teams are due to be announced? The RFU website doesn't always seem to share that information in advance.

Rfu twitter.

Worked well in 2015

At least we have second rows in the second row and back rows in the back row, although a specialist 8 would be nice.

Similarly we have a 10 at 10, a 12 at 12 and a 13 at 13, which is also a nice change of pace. If Daly goes well at 15, that would solve a lot of our back line problems.

It's not the worst he could have done with those players, and I think it gives us a real chance of winning and keeping our unbeaten Autumn running going at least another week.

That's a very decent England side that should push, if not beat the Springboks.

Positives - Itoje in his best position, 3 proper back rowers, Farrell at 10, centres in their club positions and a back 3 that looks like it could do some real damage, Tuilagi not being smashed into large South Africans for 80 mins

Negatives - potential lack of carrying power in the starting 15, unproven at international level back row, and the forward subs

On the whole I quite like it

BamBam wrote:Positives - Itoje in his best position, 3 proper back rowers, Farrell at 10, centres in their club positions and a back 3 that looks like it could do some real damage, Tuilagi not being smashed into large South Africans for 80 mins

Negatives - potential lack of carrying power in the starting 15, unproven at international level back row, and the forward subs

On the whole I quite like it

Maybe thats why Teo was picked at 12 and Farrell at 10. To carry. Its a decent side. I see an England win by 10.

It is a very inexperienced pack - with (if my mental arithmetic is correct) 76 caps excluding Hartley. Of course there a lot of caps in the cupboards of the injured so to a degree this was forced on Eddie. I am glad we have proper back rowers and pleased for Wilson to get a first home cap. While my first impressions are not great, in truth I have not seen enough of Shields to know whether he is good enough.


Slightly worried by  Youngs form and Te'o's lack of gametime, but that is a backline that shows promise plus we have genuine gamechangers on the bench.

We should see strong carrying from sinckler Kruis wilson and shields.te'o and nowell in the backs also. Well balanced side on the whole and that back row should give us more protection for our carriers and a fair bit of a threat. Some new combos there but I expect england to gain as the game goes on. Shame I'm in Wales and missing it live!

Jones mentions chop tackling twice. Joe Worsley is still only 41.

Nice to see we aren't picking on form. Shields and Te'o have barely played this season. At least the pack looks abrasive.

Well, an interesting lineup.

Mark at 8...big call. Hes WAY better as a flanker...but you know he'll give 1000% will be aggressive and not take a backward step and will go till the final whistle.
Im a big fan of Curry and think he will enhance his reputation this game and AIs...I hope we see the best of SHields.

The front 5 is the huge thing. Can Itoje and Kruis match what could be an enormous SA second row...and can our front row do enough.

I don't think we'll have a problem with work rate...but physicality...that will be the thing to watch.

Edit...
If Shields is lacking match fitness...I wonder if Mark will move to 6 in the second half and Mercer comes on at 8...

Have added the Springbok team to the heading

Looks like Ford and Tuilagi could come on in the second half for Teo and Slade to give a Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi backline. Playing Tuilagi with Ford I think is the best way to get the best out of both players - they are starting to connect well at Leicester recently and against a tiring Springbok backline they could be deadly.

TO be honest though, the England backs you could pick in a whole range of combinations and have a really good side. The forwards is where the problem has been for a while. Still lacking a bit of grunt I think. Missing an old fashioned Leicester input ala Johnson, White, Cockerill (going back a long time I know). Where are the white orcs on steroids these days? Not a whole pack perhaps (the game has changed) but at least one or two 'orrible buggers.

That is a decent Springbok team, question mark on defensive organisation in the backline.

Nkosi coming back from injury, although he looked good in the Currie Cup semifinal scoring two tries.

Kriel suspect in my view on defence, I don't think he reads defence as well as Amm. Amm showed consistent improvement on defence and a better distributor than Kriel who reminds me of the old days, always looking where to land when tackled.

Hoepefully Rassie has worked on him and his distribution.

The pack should perform well. Backrow strong and mobile. Bench just ok

Dat pack tho:shock:

Strong SA team for sure even accounting for the English based players unavailable. Vermuelen at 7? Huge unit but probably not the quickest to the breakdown? SA centres are very physical and did a brilliant job against the ABs. T'eo will have his hands full having not started or played a full match this season.

Otherwise please to see proper 2nd rows, back rows albeit I think Morgan should have been in. Agree with some who say he has the wrong props starting and obviously lots of new combinations so no idea how this England team will fare. I would favour SA by 8.

hugehandoff wrote:Strong SA team for sure even accounting for the English based players unavailable. Vermuelen at 7? Huge unit but probably not the quickest to the breakdown? SA centres are very physical and did a brilliant job against the ABs. T'eo will have his hands full having not started or played a full match this season.

Otherwise please to see proper 2nd rows, back rows albeit I think Morgan should have been in. Agree with some who say he has the wrong props starting and obviously lots of new combinations so no idea how this England team will fare. I would favour SA by 8.

I believe South Africa have a different convention with their flankers. Vermuelen will wear 7 on the blindside and Kolisi will wear 6 on the openside.

My gob will be well & truly smacked if we pull this one off. It’s all very well having a lightweight mobile pack, but how much running will they really be doing after being sat on by the SA boys. We needed a fat boy at 8, and it’s like fresher’s week in the BR - 10 caps between them. Plus an average of 7 caps each for 4 of our 6 FR. Youngs’ form is iffy, and it’s a sad state of affairs when Manu has more game time than our 1st choice 12 – I’m surprised either remembers what to do with the ball.

Still, should be fun.

That SA pack is monstrous - De Jager and Snyman in the 19 and 20 jerseys too

Barney McGrew did it wrote:My gob will be well & truly smacked if we pull this one off. It’s all very well having a lightweight mobile pack, but how much running will they really be doing after being sat on by the SA boys. We needed a fat boy at 8, and it’s like fresher’s week in the BR - 10 caps between them. Plus an average of 7 caps each for 4 of our 6 FR. Youngs’ form is iffy, and it’s a sad state of affairs when Manu has more game time than our 1st choice 12 – I’m surprised either remembers what to do with the ball.

Still, should be fun.

Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje and Kruis won't exactly stand off and although I haven't seen much of Hepburn I doubt he would either. You could say the back row needs a carrier (and I probably would have had Morgan at 8), but we have a stronger carrier in the centre, and with the players selected we should be more competitive at the breakdown.

I think we are marginal favourites at home, but happy to admit the game could go either way. I wouldn't say it would be too surprising for us to win however.

hugehandoff wrote:Strong SA team for sure even accounting for the English based players unavailable. Vermuelen at 7? Huge unit but probably not the quickest to the breakdown? SA centres are very physical and did a brilliant job against the ABs. T'eo will have his hands full having not started or played a full match this season.

Otherwise please to see proper 2nd rows, back rows albeit I think Morgan should have been in. Agree with some who say he has the wrong props starting and obviously lots of new combinations so no idea how this England team will fare. I would favour SA by 8.

I suspect Vermeulen and Marx will combine to pilfer the breakdown, I would expect them to have a big impact on England ruck ball, with Du Toit, Whiteley and Kolisi to be the ball carriers.

Who will cover wing if May/Nowell is crocked?
Daly can move to the side - but could have Ford covering the 15 berth then!
Tuilagi on the wing experiment hopefully was put to bed a long time ago.

screamingaddabs wrote:Looks like Ford and Tuilagi could come on in the second half for Teo and Slade to give a Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi backline.  Playing Tuilagi with Ford I think is the best way to get the best out of both players - they are starting to connect well at Leicester recently and against a tiring Springbok backline they could be deadly.

TO be honest though, the England backs you could pick in a whole range of combinations and have a really good side.  The forwards is where the problem has been for a while. Still lacking a bit of grunt I think.  Missing an old fashioned Leicester input ala Johnson, White, Cockerill (going back a long time I know).  Where are the white orcs on steroids these days?  Not a whole pack perhaps (the game has changed) but at least one or two 'orrible buggers.

The old fashioned Leicester is slowly returning but might be too late for the next RWC. The lock pairing of Wells and Spencer is pretty physical and confrontational but it's an area of strength for England. Genge when he returns from injury should be a starter and I still wouldn't rule out Dan Cole returning for the 6N or RWC. Otherwise England might have to wait for young Evans to come back from injury and a couple of years for Heyes to finish bulking out (the kids a monster and playing tighthead in the first team at 19).

propdavid_london, Care to the wing or Slade to fullback I presume. Can't see Ford slotting into fullback nor the Manu wing option being trialled again.

Do people think Jones actually has a plan knows what he wants and it's just injuries causing him problems or is he struggling to put together a team and plan?

I know he's had long term injuries to a huge number of key players however so many of his selection just seems too random and haphazard

I think, to be fair, because of all the injuries to 1st choice players he has not had a chance to establish any actual plan.

considering the amount of injuries we've had that looks like a pretty decent side to me, with strength off the bench in the backs at least in ford and manu. its a side of round holes and round pegs, something we've not seen for quite a while under jones.

like other have said i possibly would have gone with morgan at 8 but having seen the sa pack perhaps that might be playing to their strengths. most ball carrying forwards would struggle against their size. instead weve got a quicker more agile back 3 that should hopefully enable us to get quick ball and finds holes in the patchy sa backline defence.

Well let's hope it's a dry day and their handling skills are up to scratch because if we have a lot of scrums it will be a long day at the office. Eddie has gone for broke on a mobile pack that can charge around the pitch. Expect to see Sinckler and Hepburn carrying in the wide channels and varying the point of attack as much as they can and May and Nowell running off Farrell closer in. Slades ability to make plays further out will be crucial. At least he has a template to work from.... Japan.

Armchairexpert wrote:Well let's hope it's a dry day and their handling skills are up to scratch because if we have a lot of scrums it will be a long day at the office. Eddie has gone for broke on a mobile pack that can charge around the pitch. Expect to see Sinckler and Hepburn carrying in the wide channels and varying the point of attack as much as they can and May and Nowell running off Farrell closer in. Slades ability to make plays further out will be crucial. At least he has a template to work from.... Japan.

Yeah, that template worked against a totally different team, a coach that was predictable and a team that underestemated a minnow.

Don't think that will be applicable this weekend.

Biltong wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:Well let's hope it's a dry day and their handling skills are up to scratch because if we have a lot of scrums it will be a long day at the office. Eddie has gone for broke on a mobile pack that can charge around the pitch. Expect to see Sinckler and Hepburn carrying in the wide channels and varying the point of attack as much as they can and May and Nowell running off Farrell closer in. Slades ability to make plays further out will be crucial. At least he has a template to work from.... Japan.

Yeah, that template worked against a totally different team, a coach that was predictable and a team that underestemated a minnow.

Don't think that will be applicable this weekend.

Agree Biltong. The recent Bok results will have also given the side the positivity its been waiting for for so long. I expect the side to slowly edge its way back up the rankings. Winning away versus higher ranked sides helps.

I have a strangely positive vibe about this particular line-up. Everyone (except perhaps marginally Wilson and Daly who have both played there this season) is in their club positions, the pack is quick and mobile and there's no messing around with accommodating specific players somewhere unusual in the side.

Here's hoping it's an expansive game as far as England are concerned. Let's not forget that the first test was incredibly close by the end - one more penalty and it would have been a drawn series. I think if England had lost a couple of games during their 18-game success run then perhaps the public wouldn't have been so hard on them. Still, if the forwards are drawn into a slugfest there's only one winner, and that's the Bokke. Keep it fast and wide, and England show genuine potential here. Add in the Twickenham home advantage and a refreshed England with a new-found intent on winning for their new coaches and we could see an England the likes of which we haven't seen for some time. Here's hoping

I see SA are hiding du Toit in the locks. Here’s hoping Young’s picks him out for a few dummies

Really don’t know what to expect from this... Hopefully this much altered England team will play to their strengths and give SA a headache or two.

Cyril wrote:I see SA are hiding du Toit in the locks. Here’s hoping Young’s picks him out for a few dummies

Yes saw that, that looks an effort to get more mobility. Thats an awesome back 3 and with Du Toit and Marx England had better get ready to stop some big ball and fast carriers. If England have gone for mobility then so have SA, with Pollard running the show at 10.

This match could be a classic.

Du Toit moves to lock because Mostert isn't available, de Jager is coming back from injury so doubt he can go 80 minutes, snyman on the bench, so purely a positional change due to Mostert not being available.

Was a little joke biltong. I’m sure du Toit can’t possibly fall for it again (can he?) but those long moments of grasping at air and then slumping his shoulders at HQ must be going through his mind. Some interesting times ahead.

Biltong wrote:Du Toit moves to lock because Mostert isn't available, de Jager is coming back from injury so doubt he can go 80 minutes, snyman on the bench, so purely a positional change due to Mostert not being available.

Perhaps but having him as well as Whitely, Vermulens and Kilisi’s gotta be some firepower there around the ground.

Biltong wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:Well let's hope it's a dry day and their handling skills are up to scratch because if we have a lot of scrums it will be a long day at the office. Eddie has gone for broke on a mobile pack that can charge around the pitch. Expect to see Sinckler and Hepburn carrying in the wide channels and varying the point of attack as much as they can and May and Nowell running off Farrell closer in. Slades ability to make plays further out will be crucial. At least he has a template to work from.... Japan.

Yeah, that template worked against a totally different team, a coach that was predictable and a team that underestemated a minnow.

Don't think that will be applicable this weekend.

I agree, this is a very different Bok side but then again England are not Japan. The parallel I make is that Jones has a very lightweight mobile pack (by choice this time) and will try to avoid an arm wrestle at all costs, something he has successfully done before.

Yeah I don't think Rassie and the boys will undersetimate England.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do people think Jones actually has a plan knows what he wants and it's just injuries causing him problems or is he struggling to put together a team and plan?

I know he's had long term injuries to a huge number of key players however so many of his selection just seems too random and haphazard

Farrell to 10 is planned, the pack is largely forced.

Team he could have picked (most unavailable)

Mako, LCD, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Underhill, Billy, Robson, Cipriani, Yarde, Lozowski, Joseph, Solomona, Watson.

The backs Eddie has selected are better, but I would love to see the two packs go head to head.

This Bokke pack is a threshing machine made out of dildos - absolute rubbish the two big games are on at the same time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Looks like Ford and Tuilagi could come on in the second half for Teo and Slade to give a Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi backline.  Playing Tuilagi with Ford I think is the best way to get the best out of both players - they are starting to connect well at Leicester recently and against a tiring Springbok backline they could be deadly.

TO be honest though, the England backs you could pick in a whole range of combinations and have a really good side.  The forwards is where the problem has been for a while. Still lacking a bit of grunt I think.  Missing an old fashioned Leicester input ala Johnson, White, Cockerill (going back a long time I know).  Where are the white orcs on steroids these days?  Not a whole pack perhaps (the game has changed) but at least one or two 'orrible buggers.

The old fashioned Leicester is slowly returning but might be too late for the next RWC. The lock pairing of Wells and Spencer is pretty physical and confrontational but it's an area of strength for England. Genge when he returns from injury should be a starter and I still wouldn't rule out Dan Cole returning for the 6N or RWC. Otherwise England might have to wait for young Evans to come back from injury and a couple of years for Heyes to finish bulking out (the kids a monster and playing tighthead in the first team at 19).

propdavid_london, Care to the wing or Slade to fullback I presume. Can't see Ford slotting into fullback nor the Manu wing option being trialled again.

I certainly hope you are right! I agree that Genge looks like a proper mongrel, and that's what is needed now and then - he's pretty much the definition of the guy that you like when he's on your team and hate when he's on the oppositions side.

I should also add that I think it is old school Leicester style players that I think England need -they don't have to actually play for Leicester (though it would be nice :-) ).

I'd like to see England re-develop an "up the jumper" style - not for use all the time (that would be dull) but as a genuine alternative in appropriate game situations and conditions. The current team does feel a lot like they have one way of playing - fast and with a lot of handling (which I really like), but sometimes you are playing on a wet cold night in Stoke...

As a Bok supporter it should be considered a good achievement if the Boks manage to beat England. England at home are no push-overs

munkian wrote:This Bokke pack is a threshing machine made out of dildos - absolute rubbish the two big games are on at the same time.

Agreed, either one of them being at 5pm would have been great, next weekend is far better for the TV fan

Who had one day before the first test then?

Manu out, Ashton onto the bench.

FFS

Re: England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?
Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:41 pm

So Courtney strains his back getting himself into some dwarf's bed. Surely we can't blame Eddie for this one. I'm looking forward to seeing in which imaginative way Manu crocks himself this time. Maybe a pillow fight with Cips that goes horribly wrong.
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I claim the Manu prize, although didn't guess it would be down to The Splash pulling his hair.

I'm looking forward to the day when we can just leave the poor guy to some club rugby. Just can't see him playing test rugby again.

robbo277 wrote:Who had one day before the first test then?

Manu out, Ashton onto the bench.

It's being reported as a small strain. So in that case it's better he comes out then plays through and aggravates it and rules himself out another series / 3 months.