England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.

Ialready commented on that, read back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Daly at 15 now gives us different options to brown.

Such as? A passing FB? Not going by Saturday's game. A FB who doesn't run the ball back at the opposition and make metres? A FB who isn't as good under the high ball? A FB who isn't as good defensively?
Oh, he has a bigger boot though.
I'm not liking these options, can I have some more please?

Blimey some of you are harsh. Start with the finishing backrow, they grew into game after some cracking tackles. Wilson was quality can't drop him. Teo did what he needed to do but also didn't stop our attack which should have scored at least one as may was in 15m of space twice with no-one in front of him. Daly will be having a horrible video review. Lawes coming into bench slot only as Kruise and Maro were good. We won't beat the all blacks but hopefully give it a good crack and look to improve game on game.

Only if you base it one game hooner. Don't think anyone is doing that?

Anyway for all the talk of our backs, its will be won the forwards.

The comments regards Daly have largely been very fare. I suspect im not the only one hoping he can turn it around.....otherwise what are our options?

Realistically only brown.

I like Brown. Very good under the highball and runs well from deep.

Daly needs his run now though. Worst I've every seen him play and it's not like he did something completely stupid. He should have put in may a couple of times but I've seen him step inside loads of times and go under the posts. Very clever player and he'll adapt. I think nowell is the back 3 player most under threat.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Based on the performance I am going to reset my expectations for England for this November. The SANZAR slam is still on but I think it won't be any more than a 5 point win for England v NZ. May to score the winner. Ford to start at 10.

If that performance gives you reason to be,ieve England will do the slam then you are being disingenuous. New Zealand is going to eat them alive.

Its just a prediction Billtong. SA beat a full strength NZ side away but lost to a understrength England side away. England are due a win v NZ and it often comes when least expected. When England went on their 18 match unbeaten streak some of their wins were fairly unconvincing but they managed to win all the same. Apart from Farrell Englands defense was excellent which is what lead to SAs win v NZ earlier in the year. Lets see.

What makes them due a win?. They normally win once every ten years. Its only been six so no, they arent due a win. When England went on their streak they never met NZ, neither did Ireland, that is more likely WHY both had their streaks. Both lost to NZ last time they played. England several times.

That an understrength England managed to topple SA is the only valid point you make and Hansen will certainly be taking that into account. As valid is the manner in which SA turned up in NZ compared to here. The performances were chalk and cheese and I dont believe that is completely to do with their oppositions on the day. If it was then yes, NZ have a battle on their hands.

If it wasnt England are in trouble. Hansen has made it clear, as opposed to other AIs, that this year has higher priority, and has prepared accordingly. England will face a rested, well prepared, injury free AB side.

I got the SA result very wrong and may have it wrong here but I will back the ABs to be more reflective of their better form than I was SA. Head to head I dont see a single position that is stronger than his NZ counterpart.

Farrell. Vs Barrett? Youngs vs Smith, Daly vs Smith, Hartley vs Taylor, kruis and Itoje vs Whitelock and Retallick, any back three comparison, ioane vs May..., certainly none of the props.

But, as I say, I got SA wrong. Who knows.

Not sure who I'd take from the NZ side to swap into ours actually. Different sides, different styles.

Happy with Shields though, Hansen must be seething that he knocked them back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I'd drop wilson. Think we need an 8 on the pitch and mercer deserves to start. Wilson was good but for me shields brings more in his defence and more in carrying and the lineout. The latter perhaps becomes more important if the ref decides to force straight throws!

Everything I have seen so far of Shields suggests he is nothing more than a decent super rugby player. Yesterday's game confirming that. One tackle on de Allende saw him driven back 8m while his one openfield carry when he was hanging on the wing was frankly a disaster. I want him nowhere near the team except in dire emergency.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not sure who I'd take from the NZ side to swap into ours actually. Different sides, different styles.

Happy with Shields though, Hansen must be seething that he knocked them back.

Yeah see thats the difference. Im very sure. One thing saying it, another believing it, and no, Hansen wont be seething. He’ll be glad for Shields, plus, he was right not to select him. Shields has proved he isnt AB material in his outings so far. Poor to average at best.

When looking for a choke tackle lt.

Shields was called up and turned it down, albeit late in the day.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Shields was called up and turned it down, albeit late in the day.

Yeah true. Look Im not saying they cant lose, England surprised by winning this match and can do again. If SA were the same SA that beat the ABs then we have a game on our hands.

The prep and the availability of Moody, Coles, Karl T, Laulala is what makes this trip different to others and the season. We probably have our full world cup squad starting side available for this match and thats a first,  probably ever. In that respect, as an AB fan it doesnt make sense that a depleted English side will match the ABs this time around, but who knows, sport throws up some funny things.

Ah Taylor, 9/10 times you'd play this England side and win by 10+.

If we had Billy, Mako, Lawes, Manu, Launchbury, Genge available....I'd say we'd have about a 30% chance.

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Shields was called up and turned it down, albeit late in the day.

Yeah true. Look Im not saying they cant lose, England surprised by winning this match and can do again. If SA were the same SA that beat the ABs then we have a game on our hands.

The prep and the availability of Moody, Coles, Karl T, Laulala is what makes this trip different to others and the season. We probably have our full world cup squad starting side available for this match and thats a first,  probably ever. In that respect, as an AB fan it doesnt make sense that a depleted English side will match the ABs this time around, but who knows, sport throws up some funny things.

SA scored five tries vs NZ, bith matches they played against them,

Yesterday they scored one.

Not the same team, their execution was poor, their decision making was poor, they fluffed this game big time.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ah Taylor, 9/10 times you'd play this England side and win by 10+.

If we had Billy, Mako, Lawes, Manu, Launchbury, Genge available....I'd say we'd have about a 30% chance.

Yes Billys one Ive missed playing the ABs and Manu is the only back that has truly carved up the ABs individually. At one point he was walking with the ball towards our line having destroyed our defences. Walking in a way I think Ashton was beside himself screaming for Tuilagi to go under the posts.

That a player can be wandering around, ‘walking’ with the ball near our own goal line with not a care in the world is one sight Ill never forget.

Oh I remember it well, I was almost wetting myself. Sadly, we've not really seen that guy since.

He's on the bench next week most likely.

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ah Taylor, 9/10 times you'd play this England side and win by 10+.

If we had Billy, Mako, Lawes, Manu, Launchbury, Genge available....I'd say we'd have about a 30% chance.

Yes Billys one Ive missed playing the ABs and Manu is the only back that has truly carved up the ABs individually. At one point he was walking with the ball towards our line having destroyed our defences. Walking in a way I think Ashton was beside himself screaming for Tuilagi to go under the posts.

That a player can be wandering around, ‘walking’ with the ball near our own goal line with not a care in the world is one sight Ill never forget.

Were the ABs taking selfies at the time?

Jonny Mays try v NZ a few years ago was a cracker.

https://youtu.be/VM6i8oKdBhI

Can't see what Shields offers that Robshaw doesn't do better. And, surprisingly to me, Brown still appears to be our best all-round FB. I want to see a Launchberry & Lawes 2ndR return in the future - Itoje to the bench. And altho' the finishing BR on Sat looked decent, jeez we're missing the carrying (and bulk) of Billy. Glad that Teo got more of a runout in the 1st half than he's had all season, but I think I'd return OF to 12.

We definitely have a chance next weekend tho' - maybe a 10% one.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ah Taylor, 9/10 times you'd play this England side and win by 10+.

If we had Billy, Mako, Lawes, Manu, Launchbury, Genge available....I'd say we'd have about a 30% chance.

Yes Billys one Ive missed playing the ABs and Manu is the only back that has truly carved up the ABs individually. At one point he was walking with the ball towards our line having destroyed our defences. Walking in a way I think Ashton was beside himself screaming for Tuilagi to go under the posts.

That a player can be wandering around, ‘walking’ with the ball near our own goal line with not a care in the world is one sight Ill never forget.

Were the ABs taking selfies at the time?

Jonny Mays try v NZ a few years ago was a cracker.

https://youtu.be/VM6i8oKdBhI

Yes it was, but surely you dont want to start a you tube battle with the AB tries vs NH sides? Not a good idea methinks.

A youtube battle? Arent you in your 50s Taylorman.

Can't see what Shields offers that Robshaw doesn't do better

He can run the 100m in less than 3 minutes.....

Collapse2005 wrote:A youtube battle? Arent you in your 50s Taylorman.

Yes, but Im not the one posting them, nor do I need to.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:A youtube battle? Arent you in your 50s Taylorman.

Yes, but Im not the one posting them, nor do I need to.

I just messing with you but it was a funny thing to say

Merchant called up to the wider squad. No ben morgan due to injury.

Dropping Wilson and keeping Shields in...7.5 is quite frankly laughable

Move Wilson to 6 and Mercer on at 8 and decide who is fit to play 7.

It's not. I expect shields to start at 6 next week. Wilson best chance is if curry is unfit.

Hope Curry plays, anyone who played poorly and is on crutches after the match would be a great test for the ABs. Their work would really be cut out for them.

As you say you don't watch enough nh rugby so you can't comment Taylor.

World Rugby officials have decided Farrell won't be cited, so I suspect Rassie Erasmus will instruct his players to taxkle the shyte out of players with a leading shoulder.

World rugby has basically set the standard for legal shoulder charges now

They may start to give some pens away with other refs though. Not sure I agree with you that it's a red card though biltong. I've seen pens given for it but after snyman (I think) got away with similar earlier the match un surprising the ref let it go.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They may start to give some pens away with other refs though. Not sure I agree with you that it's a red card though biltong. I've seen pens given for it but after snyman (I think) got away with similar earlier the match un surprising the ref let it go.

I didn't suggest it was a red card, I just commented that there were no arms in the tackle and it was an illegal shoulder charge.

But like I said, if that type of tackle is deemed legal, then as Rassie Erasmus commented post match, it is very effective and should be used.

After all, World Rugby just gave the green light.

It would be duplicitous for them to now decide otherwise.

Citing happen for when the citing officer thinks a red card offence occurred bilt not whether they feel the ref just missed a foul. Like I said I would suspect if sa go ahead with it they get away with a few and get a few pens.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Citing happen for when the citing officer thinks a red card offence occurred bilt not whether they feel the ref just missed a foul. Like I said I would suspect if sa go ahead with it they get away with a few and get a few pens.

https://youtu.be/kWrff_ean-s

No 7&1/2 wrote:Citing happen for when the citing officer thinks a red card offence occurred bilt not whether they feel the ref just missed a foul. Like I said I would suspect if sa go ahead with it they get away with a few and get a few pens.

geez what a strawman argument that is. They shouldnt cite a player because its your impression that they get away with other things...

What's your point biltong? I assume you're not complaining about the citing anymore just the decision. Fair enough like I said snyman was lucky earlier.

Where did I say that Taylor? I think thy should cite any player they believe should have been red carded who wasn't. Personally don't believe that Farrell should have got a red card there. I've seen those decisions get pens avoid pens and even pick up yellow cards depending on the ref though.

Wasn't a red therefore no citing ...

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's your point biltong? I assume you're not complaining about the citing anymore just the decision.  Fair enough like I said snyman was lucky earlier.

Got a clip? Or a time stamp so I can see what you are talking about?

I can possibly have a check back.
What was your point though biltong?

I had no point, I just read the news and shared it.

The youtube clip is Rassie's post match interview, wherehe suggested we will start practicing that type of defensive move.

Biltong, just curious - I haven't seen the article so did WR say the tackle was legal or just that there would be no citing as they don't equate to the same thing, ie a high tackle isn't legal but few result in citings ...

They said it didn't warrant a red card

Well that was correct then ... if there was contact with the head it would have been red but not otherwise.

I doubt any rugby supporter from anywhere suggested a red card, most comments were a penalty

So like I said originally biltong. Sa can start to deliberately do that. And don't be surprised if it leads to several penalties.