England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

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Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.

If Te'o gets an early knock, wonder if we'll be back to Ford, Farrell & Slade in the midfield, or if Jones brings Ashton on, and experiments with Daly or Nowell at centre.

Probably the first.

It must've been a known issue otherwise he would've started.

Ashton should be in the XV or not at all - he isn't an impact player.

Well there's a surprise...Manu out eh...

The lad should just not be picked again for England until he's gone through a full season for his club...

Didn't know Henry Slade had diabetes.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Didn't know Henry Slade had diabetes.

Same as Tyler Morgan

What happened?

I saw a post on the beeb that he fell through a skylight getting into the bar at the hotel. I'm sure its unlikely but not completely impossible with this fella.

Is it just me or should England not be panicking about...
1. The pack mismatch, particularly the back row
2. The impact this match could have on the NZ match.

For me it would be a modern day miracle if England were to beat both SA and NZ in a week. Jones sure has been given a raw deal under the club demands thing.

The Bok pack is going to chew up anything remaining from what is already a seconds pack and Pollard is just going to keep pushing the packs together as much as possible.

Without ball it wont matter how good the backline is. Stephen Jones comment that no England pack will be destroyed with Itoje in it just may come home to roost. Rassie and the bok pack can smell the fear already.

We are praying for a Japan RWC miracle I thinks!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well there's a surprise...Manu out eh...

The lad should just not be picked again for England until he's gone through a full season for his club...

There is a general feeling amongst the Tigers fans that it would have been better had Eddie held off selecting him until the 6N. Always likely he'd be brought in ASAP but realistically he could have done with a couple of weekends off during the cup competition and then building back into the next run of games. He's only missed one game for Tigers and he could have played had Murphy pushed him but Tigers were feeling cautious.

Only one game of genuine form this season though. Feels a little rushed.

Taylorman wrote:Stephen Jones comment that no England pack will be destroyed with Itoje in it just may come home to roost.

Did he really say that?

If size was the only thing that mattered then South Africa would be multiple World Cup winners, but fortunately rugby is a bit more of an all round game than that. At RWC 2015 there was on average 13 scrums, 26 lineouts and 178 rucks/mauls per game. So I don't think scrums have the significance that they used to have. England have picked the best front 5 which is available, and whilst it may not be the strongest scrum I think they look a pretty decent lineout outfit with Kruis, Wilson and Itoje.

The weather is supposed to be good tomorrow which should be in England's favour, but I always worry when I see an Australian referee as they can go any which way at scrum time (the French seem the best at refereeing scrums as they realise it is a contest and seem fairly adept at spotting the obvious cheating). I would be disappointed if England lost at home to an understrength and let's be honest pretty average Springbok team (barring recent win over New Zealand).

Perceptions sure do stick don't they?

South Africa never has a small pack, but certainly often they don't have the heaviest pack either.

Kitshoff is very mobile for a prop, du Toit very mobile for a lock, Whiteley is ultra mobile, Kolisi has a good turn of pace on him.

Marx himself ain't no slouch, and Etzebeth neither, Thor may not be pacey, but can certainly carry ball.

So that leaves you with a mobile pack. Perhaps it is time to let go of those perceptions.

Biltong wrote:Perceptions sure do stick don't they?

South Africa never has a small pack, but certainly often they don't have the heaviest pack either.

Kitshoff is very mobile for a prop, du Toit very mobile for a lock, Whiteley is ultra mobile, Kolisi has a good turn of pace on him.

Marx himself ain't no slouch, and Etzebeth neither, Thor may not be pacey, but can certainly carry ball.

So that leaves you with a mobile pack. Perhaps it is time to let go of those perceptions.

And my point was actually experience more than anything. Hartley has a third of the caps on his own. The rest of the tight 5 are very short on caps and the loosies are virtual newbies to test rugby.

Dont know why theres not more concern, this Bok pack is big, fast and experienced. How on earth are England going to compete at the breakdown?

Sharkey06 wrote:  I would be disappointed if England lost at home to an understrength and let's be honest pretty average Springbok team (barring recent win over New Zealand).

Geez, England are not understrength and average?

Who is actually favourites with the bookies?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Stephen Jones comment that no England pack will be destroyed with Itoje in it just may come home to roost.

Did he really say that?

According to the quote on the other thread which for Jones made for not bad reading for once. They seem to only quote his anti NZ rants our way but this one had some non senile stuff in it for a change.

Taylorman wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:  I would be disappointed if England lost at home to an understrength and let's be honest pretty average Springbok team (barring recent win over New Zealand).

Geez, England are not understrength and average?

Who is actually favourites with the bookies?

I certainly hope England thinks we're average.

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:  I would be disappointed if England lost at home to an understrength and let's be honest pretty average Springbok team (barring recent win over New Zealand).

Geez, England are not understrength and average?

Who is actually favourites with the bookies?

I certainly hope England thinks we're average.

Both teamsheets are scary...for different reasons

How are England going to play both the boks and ABs with that selection.

Dont get it myself.

England are slight favourites with the bookies who have it England by 3.

Artful_Dodger wrote:England are slight favourites with the bookies who have it England by 3.

Wow, gotta watch more NH rugby then cos that pack doesnt inspire at all.

Taylorman wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:England are slight favourites with the bookies who have it England by 3.

Wow, gotta watch more NH rugby then cos that pack doesnt inspire at all.

It's probably worth bearing mind that England odds are often cut because many more people will back them. I reckon South Africa will win if they turn up, Dylan Hartley has 26 more caps than the rest of that England pack put together. England very definitely there for the taking unless some of their unknowns really turn up.

Again Taylor. Your opinion of england holds no weight you don't watch the players. Your opinion is worthless.

Taylorman, I share your concerns...and im an England fan.

We're missing players in the pack no doubt...Billy V, Mako, Underhill, Marler, Lawes,  etc etc…but it is what it is...injuries are plaguing England at the moment.

Genge is a big loss for me despite being the inexperienced Loosehead...because he's an aggressive raging f&%kin rhino which we are sorely missing.

However that pack does have some very good internationals.
Itoje is a top class act at lock...and is in fine form.
Kruis is many peoples first choice lock when fit and on form...he seems to be heading back to that now after several years of injuries etc.
And they know each others games inside out both playing at Sarries.

Curry is most England fans starter at 7. And despite his youth continues to put in some very mature and physical games...his real strength is his intelligence though...which will be needed.

Shields I cant comment a huge amount on...

Then theres Mark Wilson. Im particularly biased because he plays for my team...but don't underestimate him. He's a flanker, a VERY good one who has played 8 many times and LOCK for us in lots of prem games due to crazy amounts of injuries.
Only 6'2, He is a decent carrier, but he has Robshaws engine....he is made of granite...and will take the physical battle to the SA pack ALL game.  

Hartley we know about nothing fireworks these days...but you know he'll hit all the set pieces and will make the tackles etc.

Hepburn...I don't know a huge amount about...solid LH...4th / 5th choice when all fit. But he plays for Exeter and if Rob Baxter rates him, he must be a decent player!

Sinkler is the one that needs to perform. On form he's got the potential and ability to be an absolute wrecking ball of a TH....make no mistake. However with injuries and such...he hasn't quite made it. He needs to be that wrecking ball on Saturday and show everyone that he really has the ability to play as we all hope he can. And who better to start that physical game than against the Boks.

Zach Mercer will come off the bench...he will probably be Englands No 8 for years to come. A cultured 8 more like Read than Billy V..be good to see him get a run out.


Im sceptical about this pack I wont hide that, however despite inexperience the individuals are very good and if they can gel...then the Boks wont have it all their own way. I have everything crossed.

Good post GF.

I’ve got everything crossed too...

Sharkey06 wrote:If size was the only thing that mattered then South Africa would be multiple World Cup winners

They are multiple World Cup winners.

Taylorman wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:England are slight favourites with the bookies who have it England by 3.

Wow, gotta watch more NH rugby then cos that pack doesnt inspire at all.

I think if you watched a little more NH rugby you might be slightly more impressed. The lock pairing is the combination that has won multiple Premiership and European Championships with Saracens. The openside Curry is only 20 but already has a couple of seasons of Premiership rugby, clearly rated he was the youngest England forward to start a game since 1912.

Brad Shields and Wilson are physical carriers who will tackle all day. Not explosive enough probably but either could be at 6 come the world cup next summer.

What worries me is the front row. Hepburn isn't a great scrummager but is good round the park. Hartley is well past his best but reliable at the set piece. Sinckler very good at ball carrying but will run out of steam probably before half time, he's not the most reliable scrummager either I think Jones would have preferred to start Williams but needs Sinckler's ball carrying ability with both our 8s unavailable.

Artful_Dodger wrote:England are slight favourites with the bookies who have it England by 3.

About right, I would say, but I really worry for England if they go behind early. Still, home advantage should cancel out inexperience.

Galted wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:If size was the only thing that mattered then South Africa would be multiple World Cup winners

They are multiple World Cup winners.

Only because Cueto didn't lift his foot in time. Damn and blast.

Let's be honest guys the pack isn't too far from what many fans have been calling bar the vunipolas and maybe Armand instead of shields. We genuinely have two very good break down operators in Wilson and curry. Kruise is a good player with athleticism and a hell of an engine. Sa could struggle without loew. To keep Marx from jacking England will either have to hit wider and play high tempo or run at Marx and make him tackle therefore rendering his jackle redundant. To me the defensive weakness for sa comes on the wings and some testing kicks should put the wobbles on them. Finally willemse is a fine player but not quite as adapt as Willie in opening up the space. Nowell coming back gives is a hard working wing who loves to put footwork in and is as strong as an ox.

It's going to be a great test match looking forward to being there in person and hopefully the newbies seize the day and have a blinder. Best of luck to my sa mates too

Duty281 wrote:

Galted wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:If size was the only thing that mattered then South Africa would be multiple World Cup winners

They are multiple World Cup winners.

Only because Cueto didn't lift his foot in time. Damn and blast.

That is the only moment I remember from the entire match.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:England are slight favourites with the bookies who have it England by 3.

Wow, gotta watch more NH rugby then cos that pack doesnt inspire at all.

I think if you watched a little more NH rugby you might be slightly more impressed. The lock pairing is the combination that has won multiple Premiership and European Championships with Saracens. The openside Curry is only 20 but already has a couple of seasons of Premiership rugby, clearly rated he was the youngest England forward to start a game since 1912.

Brad Shields and Wilson are physical carriers who will tackle all day. Not explosive enough probably but either could be at 6 come the world cup next summer.

What worries me is the front row. Hepburn isn't a great scrummager but is good round the park. Hartley is well past his best but reliable at the set piece. Sinckler very good at ball carrying but will run out of steam probably before half time, he's not the most reliable scrummager either I think Jones would have preferred to start Williams but needs Sinckler's ball carrying ability with both our 8s unavailable.

Im well aware ofthe lock pairing though I think Itojes hype is overated and his form reflected that this year.and of course Shields who in my opinion is the wrong 6 to face the bok back row.  Hes not quick enough and will be found wanting in the open game. Curry mightbe favourite at 7 but he lacks the experience of the back row hes facing. All three are lethal and add du Toit and Marx in there and theyre gonna take some stopping, especially if Rassie gets them in the mindset he did in NZ.

Plus you mention Hartley. He needs to check his discipline so he doesnt regress back to his former days. The boks just may draw that out of him.

Sorry Taylorman..but I have to disagree with a fe wof your comments...and you have shown some of your lacking of knowledge of the England game.

Itoje is NOT overrated. He has a poor second season...but he was also ridiculously overplayed. He's been in great form this season.

Curry lacks experience but has played against all types of top players in the prem and also played against international sides and shown up reputation very much enhanced all times. As I said...the biggest thing about him is his intelligence...to compliment his ability. I hate to say it...but if was a Kiwi...you would all be raving about having another top star coming through on the openside conveyor belt. But because he's English (which you clearly have little knowledge of) he's inexperienced etc etc.

ANd Hartley discipline??? Jeez why do people roll that old one out all the time. He's had issues at club level...but he's NEVER had any issues for country. That wont change on Saturday

Yep points taken, Itoje looks in form so needs to lift for this. Interesting match ahead and SA do look to have turned a corner. Home advantage is a plus, but I just cant go past that Bok pack and the way theyre playing at the back end of the R championship. If England get up for this itll surprise me.

Yoda wrote:Let's be honest guys the pack isn't too far from what many fans have been calling bar the vunipolas and maybe Armand instead of shields. We genuinely have two very good break down operators in Wilson and curry. Kruise is a good player with athleticism and a hell of an engine. Sa could struggle without loew. To keep Marx from jacking England will either have to hit wider and play high tempo or run at Marx and make him tackle therefore rendering his jackle redundant. To me the defensive weakness for sa comes on the wings and some testing kicks should put the wobbles on them. Finally willemse is a fine player but not quite as adapt as Willie in opening up the space. Nowell coming back gives is a hard working wing who loves to put footwork in and is as strong as an ox.

It's going to be a great test match looking forward to being there in person and hopefully the newbies seize the day and have a blinder. Best of luck to my sa mates too

Yes SA were defensively lacking but Rassie has worked on that recently by getting better numbers out there. The May Diyantyi comparison will be interesting Diyantyi finding his way to the tryline against every side hes faced this year. Marx can have throw in issues from time to time but hes Pocock like over the ball. Willies out? That wont help.

Jones's selection of Te'o reminds me of Lancaster and Burgess and that's no disrespect to Te'o.

Add to this selectorial desperation and Te'o has played only 30 odd minutes all season.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him either hobble or hook before the break.

kingelderfield wrote:Jones's selection of Te'o reminds me of Lancaster and Burgess and that's no disrespect to Te'o.

Add to this selectorial desperation and Te'o has played only 30 odd minutes all season.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him either hobble or hook before the break.

Well its going to be punishing up front. Be interesting to see how they are after the test with the ABs next week, resting and preparing this week. Not a good scenario, though Ireland are in a better position.

Didnt really see much of Te’o in Auckland as he played League here then in Oz, so not a product of NZ rugby at all. Jones and his northern club coaches are the only ones hes ever really had. An odd buy.

Taylorman wrote:...I just cant go past that Bok pack and the way theyre playing at the back end of the R championship. If England get up for this it'll surprise me.

While the bookies have England as slight favourites, a few England pundits have called the game for South Africa. Largely, for the same reasons:

1) The Bok pack is large and abrasive. England have rarely gone into a match looking like they might get beaten up, and I don't think anyone can envisage how we might win if that's what happens

2) Most of the Boks are decent at the breakdown. Given that England have struggled to get that part of the game right, any hopes we have of getting quick ball could be strangled at birth.

3) Experience and momentum count for a good deal at Test level, and South Africa probably have both.

To play devil's advocate, Jones is hardly unaware of what South Africa will bring, so you'd hope he's given some thought to how to handle it. You'd hope.

Also, England's main weakness in the recent losing run has been a high penalty count. If we don't change that, then we'll lose. If we do change that, then the Boks will have to work harder to get the ball, and we'll have better attacking opportunites.

One YouTube vlogger compared the pack weights based on what he could see online. By his estimation, South Africa have a 20kg advantage, which is all in the front row. Who knows whether his numbers are accurate but that's not a big a gap as I thought.

Rugby Fan wrote:

One YouTube vlogger compared the pack weights based on what he could see online. By his estimation, South Africa have a 20kg advantage, which is all in the front row. Who knows whether his numbers are accurate but that's not a big a gap as I thought.

That was my point eralier on this thread. Perceptions die hard. South Africa rarely has an advantage in paxk weights these days.

This pack is mobile. It will be physical, but it is mobile.

Biltong wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

One YouTube vlogger compared the pack weights based on what he could see online. By his estimation, South Africa have a 20kg advantage, which is all in the front row. Who knows whether his numbers are accurate but that's not a big a gap as I thought.

That was my point eralier on this thread. Perceptions die hard. South Africa rarely has an advantage in paxk weights these  days.

This pack is mobile. It will be physical, but it is mobile.

Ill say, hows Whitelys form recently? If hes in form then theyre going to take some stopping. With Marx and du Toit youve effectively got five, big, ball carrying backrowers. And not sire whos going to match Marx at the breakdown but his lineout throwing had better be on, he can fall off there at times.

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

One YouTube vlogger compared the pack weights based on what he could see online. By his estimation, South Africa have a 20kg advantage, which is all in the front row. Who knows whether his numbers are accurate but that's not a big a gap as I thought.

That was my point eralier on this thread. Perceptions die hard. South Africa rarely has an advantage in paxk weights these  days.

This pack is mobile. It will be physical, but it is mobile.

Ill say, hows Whitelys form recently? If hes in form then theyre going to take some stopping. With Marx and du Toit youve effectively got five, big, ball carrying backrowers. And not sire whos going to match Marx at the breakdown but his lineout throwing had better be on, he can fall off there at times.

I think Whiteley is over his injury from earlier the season, when you think of Whiteley he is no pushover, but not the most physicsal, but his open running, support running and offloads make him a great link man, plus he has a good turn of pace and has good vision.

I think Marx and Vermeulen can rule the breakdown, kolisi is understanding his role at the ruck more and more. Whilst not the ground man, he reads the ruck wrll, knows when to counter ruck.

The backrow has good balance.

I really like that SA pack, if we get into an arm wrestle there's only one winner. No genuine 7 for the Boks but plenty of options at the breakdown in the front row.

If we start as we did in SA with all guns blazing, we'll win by 10+. If it stays close or SA get in front, I'm not sure we'll have enough to pull through.

Must admit I feel quite perplexed about the match but looking forward to it.

I have absolutely no idea if England will win (narrowly) or loose heavily - many outcomes seem possible. The key issue seems can the more experienced (if not substantially bigger -according to some) RSA pack overcome/pummel the English 8.  Very difficult to call.  England could still win but I imagine few English fans are confident.

England have gone for a mobile pack, having lost Billy, Mako, Launchbury, etc. they have chosen more lightweight replacements, whereas Morgan was an option.  Even in the locks people like Attwood or Spencer might have been an alternative.

Overall I am totally lost by Eddie wider squad selections, people float in and out and are never seem to be seen again, but to some extent the 15/23 are probably the best available at the moment, since we must be down to our 4/5/6th choice at loose head. An England "hors de combat" pack would probably be quite formidable.

Hoping for an interesting match but it is a new start for England so difficult to predict.

Thanks bambam

Come on England

Two early, unnecessary, penalties suggest we haven't got our discipline back.

Itoje penalised again, even after getting a warning. For good measure, Hepburn collapsed the maul too.

15 mins in....Itoje 3 pens and a yellow card, great start. Daly really struggling with the high ball, perhaps not the best game to drop Brown.

Was just saying how poor Itoje's discipline was on another board, then he gives away another one and gets carded, poor.

Itoje yellow card after 15 minutes. Very poor discipline. He personally gave away three penalties. Given we are looking shaky under the high ball, this is a poor start.

Slow start for England. Pollard makes such a big difference to this SA side.

England under the cosh and lucky not to concede a try there ... will need a big improvement to stand any chance in this match.