England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

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Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.

So was Mitchells appointment worth while?

Have to say England's defence looked very good, unless SA are just very bad?

Collapse2005 wrote:No way that one was worse. Farrell knew it himself, his body language after the tackle totally gave it away. Also look at his face just before he makes the tackle he was so pumped up he os a red card waiting to happen.

Clear shoulder to head contact by both SA tacklers at the 3 second point on that clip, versus no contact with the head in the Farrell one. By the laws as currently written it's inarguable that the Snyman one is worse.

Farrell, like Brown, is one of those players that people seem to judge by how he looks rather than what he does. Both of them have a long track record of plays that get opposing fans in particular up in arms, but by which referees have consistently been untroubled. The fact base just doesn't support the way they are perceived.

Poorfour wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:No way that one was worse. Farrell knew it himself, his body language after the tackle totally gave it away. Also look at his face just before he makes the tackle he was so pumped up he os a red card waiting to happen.

Clear shoulder to head contact by both SA tacklers at the 3 second point on that clip, versus no contact with the head in the Farrell one. By the laws as currently written it's inarguable that the Snyman one is worse.

Farrell, like Brown, is one of those players that people seem to judge by how he looks rather than what he does. Both of them have a long track record of plays that get opposing fans in particular up in arms, but by which referees have consistently been untroubled. The fact base just doesn't support the way they are perceived.

There are lots of examples of Farrell tackles that have been punished. Posted a few of them before further up the thread. His technique is poor and its also illegal. Very lucky guy to go unpunished. He knows it too.

I'm glad England won and I do think they were marginally better than SA but it definitely should have been a penalty and probably a yellow card.

I know OF has a face you want to slap, but if he's now got a face you want to penalize - then look out Sexton & Biggar!

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I know OF has a face you want to slap, but if he's now got a face you want to penalize - then look out Sexton & Biggar!

Sexton has a slappable face too but to be fair he has a much better tackle technique and is a better overall defender than Farrell. No wrap at all in Farrell's tackle:

Shoulder Charge:

It was blatantly a shoulder charge and he knew it, the ref bottled a clear penalty, maybe even a yellow.

If it happened in a mini's game the ref would let it go.

Great tackle from Farrell. (The haters will always Hate.)

How was it a tackle ? He went high with no arms.

Collapse2005 wrote:... His technique is poor and its also illegal...

I agree that technique is poor but it's not illegal in itself; only if the tackler hits wrongly. Since I think more referees these days will look less kindly on whether he is wrapping or not, Farrell would be advised to change. It's also fairly clear he isn't the only one who tackles that way, as there were at least two more example by other players in that same match.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:... His technique is poor and its also illegal...

I agree that technique is poor but it's not illegal in itself; only if the tackler hits wrongly. Since I think more referees these days will look less kindly on whether he is wrapping or not, Farrell would be advised to change. It's also fairly clear he isn't the only one who tackles that way, as there were at least two more example by other players in that same match.

Shoulder charges are still illegal if you get away with the odd one. There may have been other ones but Farrell's was the most obvious one by a long shot.

munkian wrote:How was it a tackle ? He went high with no arms.

In your mind. - However there was an attempt to wrap his arms and the collision wasn't high, a still photo is not proof.

The Ref and TMO were happy with it.

Also there is no guarantee had the Ref 'made a mistake' and awarded the penalty that SA would have scored anyway.

The Ref and TMO were happy with it.

So - on the day it was not a penalty. However if the same situation recurred next time with a different ref they may not be happy with it. So maybe Farrell needs to modify his tackle technique a bit. I know it's hypothetical, but whereas in this case the ref leant towards believing there was an effort to wrap arms, on a different day a ref might lean in the opposite direction and give a yellow card - I'm not arguing which "lean" is correct, just pointing out that referees are human and open to individual interpretation within a spectrum of "rightness and wrongness".

What was clear from Saturday was that the ref and tmo were on a completely different set of interpretations to what we've seen so far this season up north. Could well have seen a couple of yellows and red if it were in the prem.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What was clear from Saturday was that the ref and tmo were on a completely different set of interpretations to what we've seen so far this season up north. Could well have seen a couple of yellows and red if it were in the prem.

true dat

The TMO was from Ireland so would be familiar with the NH interpretation. He obviously didn't want to recommend a red card because that would have ruled Farrell out of the ABs game and England will need Owen in the role of hitman for Barrett. Since the officials have deemed the hit legal, Ireland won't complain if he still 'tackles' with a leading shoulder next week.

So - on the day it was not a penalty. However if the same situation recurred next time with a different ref they may not be happy with it. So maybe Farrell needs to modify his tackle technique a bit.

100% agree - however there's evidence in that game that there were other borderline tackles that were not penalised, so in one way Farrell got a 'Get of Jail Free' card because of that ref's interpretation in that particular match - but so did others - some of them being Boks.



However

The Great Aukster wrote:The TMO was from Ireland...He obviously didn't want to recommend a red card..

Unless the referee asked him for a recommendation, then he couldn't offer one.

Under new World Rugby guidance, the TMO can't be as proactive as before. Once he has raised the incident with the referee, he defers to the referee's judgement unless asked.

100% agree - however there's evidence in that game that there were other borderline tackles that were not penalised, so in one way Farrell got a 'Get of Jail Free' card because of that ref's interpretation in that particular match - but so did others - some of them being Boks.

And maybe the Boks need to modify their tackle technique too. I suspect that a lot of players will need to be a bit more careful than in the past - the days of hitting in an upright position are going - too easy to slip up a bit more and be off for the game plus a few weeks to think about it

At first glance, I thought that Farrell's hit was no arms and worthy of a penalty.

10 years ago, that hit would not even be a discussion but with the new rules it has become a discussion. I am a bit old school and think that there was very little wrong with the hit. For me it was a case of collision at speed and both players bounced off the initial hit which made it look worse than it actually was. A penalty? well it could have been and it could not have been, that is down to the referee and TMO and in the end neither thought it warranted anything so fine for me.

For me, I think Itoje needs to be spoken too, he is becoming worse and worse with his on field discipline and needs to be calmed down.

eirebilly wrote:
For me, I think Itoje needs to be spoken too, he is becoming worse and worse with his on field discipline and needs to be calmed down.

He is giving away too many penalties. The first at the lineout was sheer stupidity. The second at the lineout drive was unlucky as he was being held in by a Saffer as he tried to comply with the ref's instruction. 3rd that led to the YC was probably needed.

However I agree. He is a very good player who could be outstanding if he could concentrate on the game. What most bugged me was when, in the second half, when in their 22 a Saffer was forced to knock on. Ball was there to be picked up and a free attack, but Maro was too busy doing the whooping and back slapping that so annoys opposing fans.

Itoje is acting like the kid you always hated to play against from a rival school.

He needs to up his game and stop with the silly schoolboy Sarries stuff.

Rugby Fan wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The TMO was from Ireland...He obviously didn't want to recommend a red card..

Unless the referee asked him for a recommendation, then he couldn't offer one.

Under new World Rugby guidance, the TMO can't be as proactive as before. Once he has raised the incident with the referee, he defers to the referee's judgement unless asked.

And if he'd said red he'd be wrong anyway ...

People are only making a big deal of this because if was Farrell and happened at the end of the game with England leading by 1 point.

If it was Sexton/Biggar or Russell in the first minute no one would be complaining or even discussing it. Wow England are still popular!

When we can get our other 2 locks back it's Launchberry/Lawes with Itoje on the bench for me. Itoje is still learning his trade at test level. And we were better in the 10 mins he was off than the previous 10.

Launchbury yes, Lawes I still don't see what other see to be honest, ok player but seriously overhyped for me.

TightHEAD wrote:Launchbury yes, Lawes I still don't see what other see to be honest, ok player but seriously overhyped for me.

I think you are mixing him up with Itojie

TightHEAD wrote:People are only making a big deal of this because if was Farrell and happened at the end of the game with England leading by 1 point.

If it was Sexton/Biggar or Russell in the first minute no one would be complaining or even discussing it. Wow England are still popular!

I don't think it really has anything to do with a prejudice against England at all. I am glad the ref didn't penalise Farrell because I wanted England to win. I cant understand how he didn't see fit to penalise Farrell though.

The refereeing in this area is really inconsistent.

Still cant figure out how Same Cane managed to dodge a red for this tackle, no arms, shoulder to head. Bizarre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQSpT6igORU

Collapse2005 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:People are only making a big deal of this because if was Farrell and happened at the end of the game with England leading by 1 point.

If it was Sexton/Biggar or Russell in the first minute no one would be complaining or even discussing it. Wow England are still popular!

I don't think it really has anything to do with a prejudice against England at all. I am glad the ref didn't penalise Farrell because I wanted England to win. I cant understand how he didn't see fit to penalise Farrell though.

The refereeing in this area is really inconsistent.

This, is was a blatant shoulder charge with no attempt to wrap the arms and at least a penalty.

uh?

it was a legal tackle, you see those on a Sunday morning up and down the country at mini/youth level and the Ref has no problem with them.

his arm wrapped. fact, end of debate.

LondonTiger wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
For me, I think Itoje needs to be spoken too, he is becoming worse and worse with his on field discipline and needs to be calmed down.

He is giving away too many penalties. The first at the lineout was sheer stupidity. The second at the lineout drive was unlucky as he was being held in by a Saffer as he tried to comply with the ref's instruction.  3rd that led to the YC was probably needed.

However I agree. He is a very good player who could be outstanding if he could concentrate on the game. What most bugged me was when, in the second half, when in their 22 a Saffer was forced to knock on. Ball was there to be picked up and a free attack, but Maro was too busy doing the whooping and back slapping that so annoys opposing fans.

Itoje actually annoys me with his theatrics, he does seem to miss small opportunities through this. I actually thought he was very bone headed in the game on Saturday and I disagree with the penalty which saw him get the YC was probably needed. I think that the defence had that covered.

Some maturity is required which is what I feel is stopping him, currently, from becoming an absolutely outstanding player.

TightHEAD wrote:uh?

it was a legal tackle, you see those on a Sunday morning up and down the country at mini/youth level and the Ref has no problem with them.

his arm wrapped. fact, end of debate.

Alas, you need to wrap both arms. Farrell couldn't wrap his right arm because he'd decided to turn his shoulder into Esterhuizen instead.

He could have wrapped both arms, but that would have meant losing 'the collision', which has been allowed to become more important than player safety.

Calculated decision on whether to kill the ball. Worked out ok this time but normally doesn't. Fortunately marks was below average on the weekend.

TightHEAD wrote:People are only making a big deal of this because if was Farrell and happened at the end of the game with England leading by 1 point.

If it was Sexton/Biggar or Russell in the first minute no one would be complaining or even discussing it. Wow England are still popular!

I'd actually agree with the first bit. Not so much because it's England or Farrell, but because the clock was red, the tackle led to a turnover and his team were leading by 1.

If this had been 10 minutes earlier, England had been 4 points up or South Africa had have played, say, 5 more phases after this for no gain, then it wouldn't be such an issue. As has been said, it wasn't even the worst unpunished tackle in the match. It definitely didn't merit a red, so there's no knock-on effect when talking about next week's match. It's just an obsession with one marginal call in a game.

Was the game really that devoid of other real talking points?

Now you mention it the ref needs a bit of practice reffing scrums.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:uh?

it was a legal tackle, you see those on a Sunday morning up and down the country at mini/youth level and the Ref has no problem with them.

his arm wrapped. fact, end of debate.

Alas, you need to wrap both arms. Farrell couldn't wrap his right arm because he'd decided to turn his shoulder into Esterhuizen instead.

He could have wrapped both arms, but that would have meant losing 'the collision', which has been allowed to become more important than player safety.

He did attempt to wrap both arms, these guys are hitting big and I suspect it is a lot different to what you played at school!

The officials concluded that he'd made sufficient attempt to wrap the arms, that much is true.

That's part of the problem - 'hitting big'. There's going to have to be a lot of unlearning if rugby is serious about being serious about head injuries and player safety.

Collapse2005 wrote:
There are lots of examples of Farrell tackles that have been punished. Posted a few of them before further up the thread. His technique is poor and its also illegal. Very lucky guy to go unpunished. He knows it too.

I'm glad England won and I do think they were marginally better than SA but it definitely should have been a penalty and probably a yellow card.

Farrell has 2 YCs in 62 caps. Among current England players that's a lower cap-per-card rate than Mako, Goode, Hughes and Itoje, and comparable to Billy, Watson, Care and Hartley. By comparison, Haskell has managed a card for every 12 games he's played. Farrell is hardly a card magnet. (Brown, for the record, has never been carded).

His technique may need to change - especially in the light of the tightening law interpretation - but he's a player who's played up to the edge far more often than he's crossed it.

Poorfour wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:
There are lots of examples of Farrell tackles that have been punished. Posted a few of them before further up the thread. His technique is poor and its also illegal. Very lucky guy to go unpunished. He knows it too.

I'm glad England won and I do think they were marginally better than SA but it definitely should have been a penalty and probably a yellow card.

Farrell has 2 YCs in 62 caps. Among current England players that's a lower cap-per-card rate than Mako, Goode, Hughes and Itoje, and comparable to Billy, Watson, Care and Hartley. By comparison, Haskell has managed a card for every 12 games he's played. Farrell is hardly a card magnet. (Brown, for the record, has never been carded).

His technique may need to change - especially in the light of the tightening law interpretation - but he's a player who's played up to the edge far more often than he's crossed it.

That's true but giving away a penalty in the last minute when you are a point up is almost as bad if not worse than a red card in terms of the outcome it can have on the game for your team.

I also think as in the example v SA he can be at times a tad fortunate not to get penalised or get a card.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The officials concluded that he'd made sufficient attempt to wrap the arms, that much is true.

That's part of the problem - 'hitting big'. There's going to have to be a lot of unlearning if rugby is serious about being serious about head injuries and player safety.

Just as well Farrell was no where near the SA chaps head then.

Tighthead, run a poll to see if posters in general think it was a penalty, yellow, red or nothing. I'm guessing the majority would go for a penalty at least.

Collapse2005 wrote:Tighthead, run a poll to see if posters in general think it was a penalty, yellow, red or nothing. I'm guessing the majority would go for a penalty at least.

Why?

An attempt was made by the player to wrap their arms and it wasn't high.
Perfect hit in the modern game.

Farrell's was easily a penalty. Maybe a yellow too.

There was also this from the last minute.............. Which has been a high tackle all this season and all last season.

That was Whitehouse's side of the field. No wonder it wasn't spotted.

TightHEAD wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Tighthead, run a poll to see if posters in general think it was a penalty, yellow, red or nothing. I'm guessing the majority would go for a penalty at least.

Why?

An attempt was made by the player to wrap their arms and it wasn't high.
Perfect hit in the modern game.

To see what the forum view is. It might be interesting.

England get away with sh*t at home 'shocker'

RugbyFan100 wrote:Farrell's was easily a penalty. Maybe a yellow too.

There was also this from the last minute.............. Which has been a high tackle all this season and all last season.

I remember seeing that but I think that would have been a harsh penalty because the tackle which absorbed most of the impact was by Daly around the legs. May was high but as the Bok fall into him after he was already tackled.

Collapse2005 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Farrell's was easily a penalty. Maybe a yellow too.

There was also this from the last minute.............. Which has been a high tackle all this season and all last season.

I remember seeing that but I think that would have been a harsh penalty because the tackle which absorbed most of the impact was by Daly around the legs. May was high but as the Bok fall into him after he was already tackled.

There's still absolutely no need for May to take him around the neck though ?

In his defence, he's not the sharpest tool in the box.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
Farrell has 2 YCs in 62 caps. Among current England players that's a lower cap-per-card rate than Mako, Goode, Hughes and Itoje, and comparable to Billy, Watson, Care and Hartley. By comparison, Haskell has managed a card for every 12 games he's played. Farrell is hardly a card magnet. (Brown, for the record, has never been carded).

His technique may need to change - especially in the light of the tightening law interpretation - but he's a player who's played up to the edge far more often than he's crossed it.

That's true but giving away a penalty in the last minute when you are a point up is almost as bad if not worse than a red card in terms of the outcome it can have on the game for your team.

I also think as in the example v SA he can be at times a tad fortunate not to get penalised or get a card.

Except that he didn't give away a penalty, and if he had been a tad fortunate not to get a card, we'd expect him to have a higher overall card count, which is my point. To us armchair pundits, it looks as if Farrell's technique risks a card with every big hit. In reality, his technique is far more in line with the rules than Haskell's, and not out of line with his peers.

Which was where I started from: what we think we've seen is not the same as what the match officials have looked for and seen. Not that they don't get it wrong sometimes - but they very rarely get it consistently wrong over 60+ caps worth of gametime.

On the other hand, risking giving away a penalty is a different thing - and Farrell was definitely guilty of that. But then England should never have kicked the ball back to South Africa when all they needed to do was hang onto it for a couple more phases and run the clock down.

Collapse2005 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Tighthead, run a poll to see if posters in general think it was a penalty, yellow, red or nothing. I'm guessing the majority would go for a penalty at least.

Why?

An attempt was made by the player to wrap their arms and it wasn't high.
Perfect hit in the modern game.

To see what the forum view is. It might be interesting.

I agree it would be interesting, but I feel people biased views would take over.