My Dad's bigger than your Dad

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 10th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 1:  Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 2:  Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England

[size=42]15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).[/size]
[size=42]Finishers[/size]
[size=42]16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).[/size]




New Zealand

1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21) 
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

kingelderfield wrote:Great drainage that Twickenham has......but even so this rain will take off the edge.

Still raining is it? Yes then that will reduce the scoring somewhat. More handling errors could creep in though ABs have a stronger pack and could go up the middle all day and let the midfielders crash it up.

Englands best chances are around how theyve set up their rush defence. If they dont pressure Barrett then he’ll cut lose.

I wouldnt be surprised if Barrett didnt score any tries against Ireland and England

Collapse2005 wrote:I wouldnt be surprised if Barrett didnt score any tries against Ireland and England

He might, it would be his first start. From memory a certain Larmour finally managed that after successive failures.

They keep comin...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/108475662/phil-gifford-twelve-reasons-why-the-all-blacks-want-to-smash-england

Bring it on they keep sayin’

Slightly more interesting. Cant see Cheika or Jones doing this, wonder if Schmidt or Gatland do?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12157915

Taylorman wrote:Slightly more interesting. Cant see Cheika or Jones doing this, wonder if Schmidt or Gatland do?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12157915

That's how it was for England as we moved to the 2003 World Cup. Players often say Johnson turned to look at them, and then said nothing, because it had all been said.

Does New Zealand have any non-tabloid/clickbait press outlets?

Engine#4 wrote:Does New Zealand have any non-tabloid/clickbait press outlets?

Well Id use the UK ones but they all keep begging for money to go past line three.

Typical. Like the rugby.

One way New Zealand rugby journalists look to keep costs down is by stealing other people's work

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1060822581245329408?s=19

Rugby Fan wrote:One way New Zealand rugby journalists look to keep costs down is by stealing other people's work

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1060822581245329408?s=19

Not as bad as stealing other peoples players and coaches, thats a mean IP steal. As far as giving crecit, well, we gave up on that years ago.

There's a number of equalising factors in todays game however ultimately if both sides perform to their potential then we should see a sizeable margin in the result. ABs + 15 or more.
Ofcourse this is sport and its a one off etc etc and so all outcomes are possible, however what I really want to see is every player performing at the highest standard so that we can best measure our status.
Infact I am partly concerned that should we win we could be seeing a (another) false positive (like last weekend- very debatable?) which could screw our necessary progress to the WC.
And ofcourse don't misunderstand me I want the win, it's just that these opportunities to measure our efforts against the best are limited.
I think it would of been great if we could field our strong side but that i guess is the nature of the beast for the time being.

How many of tonights side would likely be in the matchday 23 of the World cup final if they were in it?

On the ABs side, Id say at least 18.

Marler MV, (Genge)
George Cowan-Dickie,
Cole Sinckler,
Launchbury(c), Itoje, Lawes,
Simmonds BV Underhill Hughes Mercer,
Robson Care,
Cipriani Farrell,
Joseph Watson Daly May Tuilagi Slade

Either Mercer or Hughes, can't decide.
So how many does that make, 13 currently selected, 11 not (can't count!)?
Ps I still think Marler might change his mind.

Brass tacks, this game will be won up front and while we have forwards who will put everything out there, it is fare to say we have many others that wont be playing today.
Surely the/our front row will be the fulcrum of todays game. Our props have the biggest games of their lives in front of them.

I am still reminded of Burgess and most clearly of Burrell being hooked off after 30 minutes verses Ozy.
I am not a fan of the Farrell Te'o formula and amongst others don't accept the SBW"s threat as a reasonable argument to counter.
Nor is the suggestion that it is the english way like 03 with Farrell for Wilkinson as obviously Woodward et al partnered either Greenwood or Catt to provide the balanced creative vision. Equally can this be a defensive sticking plaster to cover our game weaknesses elsewhere?
I would select Cipriani with Farrell at IC and have Launchbury telling the two of them to shut the fuk up and play the game!
Edit...and therefore without Tuilagi offering impack from the bench I'd go with Ford and Farrell to start and Te'o to finish big time.

So slade and Daly don't offer enough then?

Daly has the intelligence to play fullback but it is a season too late for this game and probably for the WC. Jones is rightly at fault for staying with Brown too long.
So where will Daly be challenged?
Positioning. The fb has to cover the entire back third which is really about width, however they are not just positioning themselves, they are directing and instructing their wings to cover, to enable the best counter to whatever is fired at them, so communication and vision - reading the game - is vital.
In the air, if your not in position then you cannot dominate the aerial bombardment that is kicked at you. Technique has to be excellent and courage a given. I actually really enjoyed this part of the game and once you've shown your ability they will soon stop giving you the ball, but if you're weak then it will be a long day.
Attack. This has always been Brown's biggest weakness and yet people can rightly say didn't Daly fail to pass as well....and the answer is yes. However if you have the ability then FB is still the best attacking position....just watch the AB's today.
Tackle.....FB is this last line of defence and so if youre correctly in position then have have to be solid in the ability to stop the opposition.....think Brown, he is a nasty tackler and this is what is needed.

They're both in my 23, Daly challenging oc, wing and fb and Slade oc and fb.
If Joseph comes back to the highest standard then you have Tuilagi to come off the bench which covers oc and so both are fighting for a start. Both are good enough.

Beg your pardon......they won't get the ball from a Youngs Farrell Te'o attack.
Its all very well Daly attacking from deep if the space allows but in play front foot is where the game is won and there isnt the ability in that cohort to challenge the AB defense.

Cipriani and Te'o is a diiferent consideration but you need Farrell's 2nd 5/8 option at this level plus obviously his place kicking ability.
Ihave thought about Farrell at FB like the 97 lions with Jenkins, however Farrell is such a competitor that you would be losing too much of him at fb and he doesnt have the running game you want from fb.

They got the ball last week so guess we'll see. Let's face it cipriani is unlikely to challenge now. Hitch your wagon to smith as he's the next likely guy.

Honestly lets see how it goes today, if we fail to get over the line again then the Cips option will grow towards the 6n especially if hes back rested and producing performces in the prem.
The young Quin? Dare i say he's too small....i jest. No ive been impressed and it would be good to see him against Japan for 30 odd minutes, but i dont think hes for this cycle and certainly not ahead of the 3 current experienced options.

I actually think the Farrell teo Slade midfield does have the ability to play in different ways. Farrell is a very good operator teo gives the bosh option when needed and Slade when given space has the works to be creative. Daly at full back can work it needs time. Watson (when fit) and Daly need to field the high ball better. Daly had a poor game last Sat but still had some nice touches. The all blacks will pepper him this afternoon which will give him plenty of time to practice! The game today will only be won if our pack beats the nz pack not just match it. Scrum time is going to vital. In terms of player watch goodhue is my concern and he needs marshalling well as I fear all of our energies will be used on stopping Barrett.

A narrow win for nz with no injuries to key players will do me bring it on

If Itoje manages to give away no more than one or two penalties, then England might have a chance of keeping the total below double figures.

Another heavy shower passjng through......

kingelderfield wrote:Brass tacks, this game will be won up front and while we have forwards who will put everything out there, it is fare to say we have many others that wont be playing today.
Surely the/our front row will be the fulcrum of todays game. Our props have the biggest games of their lives in front of them.

Yes its rare we’ll start with what I think is a significantly better front row/ tight 5 and pack overall. I woukd expect clear domination there.

Franks, Karl T and Taylor wont lose to many front rows and with Laulala, Dane Coles and Ofa to come on continuity at scrum time is ensured for the 80.

SBW is due a good one and that could happen here, thats the feeling anyway, this or next week he could throw in a good one.

Barrett again is key, and looking at the live shots rain has stopped?

Great try england, love it when the opposition score early, wakes the boys up big time

Wow - didn't expect that - lucky the ref ignored the AR when he called a penalty against the ABs in that scrum ....

Lovely by Youngs.

As predicted McKenzie struggling

Come on England keep it ticking

Smart decision for the drop goal

England doing everything at the moment. Can they keep it up?

Did this kick off at 3pm?? I thought it was 7.30??!

I really need to start paying attention to kick off times!!!

Nice lazy running there - even stopped to put his hands up

GeordieFalcon wrote:Did this kick off at 3pm?? I thought it was 7.30??!

I really need to start paying attention to kick off times!!!

Let's hope for a win for your side again like last time

Damn right heaf!!

Surely 20 mins is enough in this weather - can't we call time now

That last scrum was beautiful, contested, stable, had a good go at competing, and then play went on.

Blimey what's going on?

Physicality from the forwards has been excellent so far. Best opening 20 we've had in a while.

Where are the world beating record scoring ABs we were promised?

SANZAR SLAM.

Holy crap lads, that was quite something

England playing New Zealand off the park. Tactically perfect.

England taking it to us thats for sure. Huge try Hartley. We sure have a game on. Pity about the conditions.

I thought the AB forwards were meant to pummel England - early days yet but this looks like a different team to last week ...

Wow! Conditions same for both teams to be fair.

Collapse2005 wrote:Where are the world beating record scoring ABs we were promised?

On the field. Is it over? No.