England vs Japan - 3rd Quilter International

Date: Saturday 17th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Paul Williams (NZ)
Assistant 1:  Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2:  Dan Jones (Wales)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England
 
Squad:

Forwards
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors) *, Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

*Apprentice

 



Japan


TBC

Do you keep the momentum going and play the same side...i think they have to .....

Try to get a nice win

[quote="LondonTiger"]Date: Saturday 17th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium




TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)


I'm saying nothing

As I wrote his name in, Barney, I thought "I shall say nothing"

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you keep the momentum going and play the same side...i think they have to  .....

Try to get  a nice win

 Not sure GF. I would have expected EJ to have earmarked this game as one to try a few things out, but who knows.

It is possible we shall see some tweaks to all 3 rows of the scrum, in fact there could be tweaks all over but......

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you keep the momentum going and play the same side...i think they have to  .....

Try to get  a nice win

I think a couple of tweaks rather than changing 10 or anything silly.

Lawes should come back into the starting line-up for me, but that is a change to strengthen and not to experiment. I'd like to see Mercer back in the squad at least, if not the starting line up. I'd possibly start George as well, just to give him a go from the off, and bring Manu onto the bench.

Mercer is a good shout. He should start. .

I wouldn't make too many changes...we're misisng several players already...and we need to get a W on the books.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you keep the momentum going and play the same side...I think they have to  .....

I wouldn't. We've got very little opportunity to try other players. If Tuilagi is fit, then why not give him a go. The same with Joe Cokanasiga. If We don't play another hooker in the squad against Japan, then when will we ever do that?

But a year out from the world cup should we not be trying to nail down the side now with as little disruption as possible. It's already disrupted due to all the injuries.

The likes of Sinkler etc need games.

I agree with hooker...we're struggling there.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But a year out from the world cup should we not be trying to nail down the side now with as little disruption as possible. It's already disrupted due to all the injuries.

The likes of Sinkler etc need games.

I agree with hooker...we're struggling there.

I think the important question will be whether Eddie has anyone he wants to look at before the World Cup. E.g. Cokanasiga. Is he runs in 3 tries against Japan, will he be retained for Australia and the Six Nations? If he shows up well there, will he make the World Cup squad? If so, give him a go. If not, then he's not really worth a cap at the moment. We have issues in the back 3, we need to settle on partnerships and combinations as well as the individuals. Introducing new individuals now isn't helpful unless they're seen as the answer to our current woes.

Maybe something like this...

1 Moon
2 ?? George?
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Lawes
6 Wilson
7 Underhill
8 Mercer

9 ??
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Ashton (cockasaniga off bench)
15 Daly

If (and that should be a big if) he gives Ford a start:

1) It would seem crazy not to then have his clubmate at 9
2) I feel Eddie would then want one of his bigger centres at 13 rather than Slade. (Unlike last year I cannot see Farrell being rested these AIs unless he has a knock)

It would be interesting to see Cokanasiga have a run out, though how much we can learn from a single game against a "Tier 2" team I am not sure. If he were to be brought in, perhaps May could have a rest. However this does not help Daly adjust to life at 15 if his wingers keep changing.

Are you saying that you think Jones has decided Farrell is his 10?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you saying that you think Jones has decided Farrell is his 10?

 I feel he has. Only problem is that our midfield of 10/12/13 still is not really functioning.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But a year out from the world cup should we not be trying to nail down the side now

We are trying to nail down a squad, and we have only seven more full Tests, and some warm-up games to find third-choice options at both scrum half and hooker. Japan, and possibly Italy, are the only two fixtures where we might feel comfortable about resting our best players. Remember, at hooker, we could go down to one choice if Hartley gets a head knock.

In the absence of Billy Vunipola and Nathan Hughes, we have used Te'o at centre. The only other player in the squad who could play the role Te'o does is Tuilagi. Another option elsewhere in the backline is Cokanasiga.

We know that Billy Vunipola, Tuilagi and Te'o have unlucky injury records. We ought to be looking at all our ball-carrying options.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you saying that you think Jones has decided Farrell is his 10?

 I feel he has. Only problem is that our midfield of 10/12/13 still is not really functioning.

My personal preference is to start with Farrell, Te'o and Slade, but bring on Ford and Tuilagi early in the second half for Farrell and Slade (one of the reasons I'm keen to bench Hartley is to ensure we have one co-captain on at all times). We can then look at how Te'o and Tuilagi go together, which is a partnership I think we can look at pursuing.

A backline of Youngs, Ford, May, Te'o, Tuilagi, Ashton and Daly for me would be a frightening prospect for opposition teams. I think Ford pulls the strings better than Farrell and could really get those two centres hitting gaps. Farrell can also bench and come on at 12 (to offer us a second kicking option and distributor) or 10 (to shore up the goal kicking and defence in latter stages). Care coming on at the same time would help if Farrell came on at 10, especially against tiring defences.

I don't think for one second Eddie will do this, but it would be something that I would want to look at.

We need to balance consistency of selection and allowing partnerships to develop with the different issue of player welfare/rest and giving some opportunities to other players. After playing SA and NZ maybe it would be prudent to rest a couple, especially if they have played a lot of minutes for their clubs. The obvious candidate is always Itoje. You also need to plan for the 6Ns and RWC in case key players get injured. How about starting Ford over Farrel as well?

Moon (obviously needs more experience)
Hartley (as I opt to rest Farrell he starts)
Sinckler
Kruis
Lawes
Wilson at 6
Mercer at 8
Underhill at 7
Youngs
Ford
May
T'eo
Slade
Ashton
Daly

I read that Manu will be given more time to recover but if he is fit then on the bench for sure.

Does anyone have the training squad for this week? Can't see anything on the England Rugby website or the twitter page. I assume all the usual faces will be in there even if they end up getting rested, but there could potentially be some hints in there.

I think he will play all of his fringe players

1. Hepburn
2. George
3. Williams
4. Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Rhodes
7. Wilson
8. Mercer
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Big joe
12. Lowoski
13. Tuilagi
14. Nowell
15. Brown
16. Sinkler
17. Hartley
18. Moon
19. Ijote (he will have a run out at six)
20. Shields (covers second and back row)
21. youngs to see if he can be a finisher
22. Earle
23. Ford will come on early and get the chance to prove himself.

Could be wrong but got most of the squad right last prediction.

I suspect the TMO will give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team this week unless of course there is clear evidence to suggest otherwise.

Eddie has named a 30 man squad for this game (in OP).

Ted Hill will be training this week, having been named as an apprentice in the original 36 man squad named last month for the AIs.

Absentees from that original squad include:

Tom Curry
George Kruis
Ben Morgan
Michael Rhodes
Mike Brown
Nathan Earle


Curry is injured, Morgan was injured. Not sure about the other four.


EDIT: Just seen that Kruis is out with a calf injury.

LondonTiger wrote:Eddie has named a 30 man squad for this game (in OP).

Ted Hill will be training this week, having been named as an apprentice in the original 36 man squad named last month for the AIs.

Absentees from that original squad include:

Tom Curry
George Kruis
Ben Morgan
Michael Rhodes
Mike Brown
Nathan Earle


Curry is injured, Morgan was injured. Not sure about the other four.


EDIT: Just seen that Kruis is out with a calf injury.

No worries...Mark Wilson excels there aswell

Being serious though...that surely means Itoje and Lawes in the engine room...or does Ewels / Hill get a look in?

Edit...Eliott Stooke is in the squad...did I miss that?

Itoje may get a rest this game, and Ewels and Lawes pack down ion the second row. (ps this Hill is the Worcester flanker, not the Exeter lock)

AAhh LT ...sorry yes im getting my wires crossed with the Hills.

Over the hills and far away.........

Kruis is out for Australia, too, so Jones might want to keep Itoje and Lawes fresh.

If he doesn't call someone else in, he could play Ewels and Shields at lock.

As GF says, Stooke is in the squad still.

Rugby Fan wrote:Kruis is out for Australia, too, so Jones might want to keep Itoje and Lawes fresh.

If he doesn't call someone else in, he could play Ewels and Shields at lock.

How fresh does Lawes need to be? He missed the first test and played around 40 minutes in all in the second.

Itoje and Lawes to start for me with Itoje coming off early-ish in the second half.

Yeah I think Lawes will start. And probably play the whole game getting him some critical match time for the Aussie game.

Itoje...hhmm, might get the first half and be replaced by Ewels who he seems to rate.

When talking about Kruis absence, Jones was asked who would run the lineout he basically stated that Ewels is good at it and Itoje can do it but does not do it week in week out for Saracens.

LondonTiger wrote:When talking about Kruis absence, Jones was asked who would run the lineout he basically stated that Ewels is good at it and Itoje can do it but does not do it week in week out for Saracens.

Who's going to do it against Australia is a key question for me. If you're starting Itoje and Lawes and having Itoje call it, he needs to start against Japan, especially as it's something he doesn't do regularly. Let him run the lineout for a half and a bit and then bring him off. You can then send Ewels out to run the lineout in the closing stages to see how he goes.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you saying that you think Jones has decided Farrell is his 10?

 I feel he has. Only problem is that our midfield of 10/12/13 still is not really functioning.

I am not sure Farrell is the problem though. To be fair Te'o is extremely short of match practice so difficult to judge him. There is Manu to consider and JJ will be back at some stage.

As the team been announced yet.

Does any one think there will be many changes for this game? I would not like to think that Eddie Jones is taking Japan lightly.( making too many changes i mean) Seeing that he coaches Japan to beat south africa at the world cup.

We’ve had enough injury-forced changes recently. Within reason, we need to play as unchanged side as possible and look to smash Japan. Using the full bench as the match plays out and looking to continue the form against Aus.

I really hope there aren’t wholesale changes for Japan. This is about momentum, not trying out many new combinations. An dominant win vs Japan and beating Aus will be an impressive AI series.

Im inclined to agree Cyril...I think keep the changes to a minimum (try Mercer etc) and try to put in a quality performance v Japan, and then really go for Australia.

I havent seen any of the games, only highlights but i'd probably go with only a few changes from what ive aeen and read.

Probably Mercer and Manu on to the bench and George starting.

I'd like to know if George can throw better when he starts, as we wont always have Hartley and need to see what George is about. Also worth remembering Hartley himself took a long time to become the regular startkng no2 with Mears and Thompson both being regularly preferred to him, its not an easy position for a youngster to start.

Also we dont need many changes as form/fitness permitting we have all these players to also use on the RWC:

Cole
M Vunipola
Genge
Launchbury
Robshaw
B Vunipola
Robson
Joseph
Watson
Nowell
Brown
And maybe Marler

And you can probably add Hask and Cips in there too as last minute stop gaps.

We really dont need more players!

yappysnap wrote:We really dont need more players!

Who are our 3rd and 4th choice hookers and scrum halves?

Hookers - LCD and Dunn
no.9 - Wiggy, Robson

Although admittedly we have seen too much of them.

As Robson was in the squad aty teh start of teh season until injury struck, it may be Robson/Wiggy. Of course Robson is uncapped with Spencer being on the bench during the summer tests in SA.

LondonTiger wrote:As Robson was in the squad aty teh start of teh season until injury struck, it may be Robson/Wiggy. Of course Robson is uncapped with Spencer being on the bench during the summer tests in SA.

Wigglesworth's place is uncertain. It looked a lot like Jones turned to him since he suddenly needed a back-up and hadn't really brought anyone through. Wigglesworth was one way of getting an experienced operator, and hoping he'd not look out of place when dropped straight in. Shades of Andy Gomarsall in the 2007 World Cup squad (he was 33, Wiigglesworth will be 36)

Jones has really hardly involved any other scrum half. He selected Robson and Michael Young for the Saxons in 2016, then promptly ignored both. He could have taken either of them to Argentina, but chose Jack Maunder. Like Spencer in South Africa, he didn't get any playing time of note.

You need two hookers and scrum halves in every match day squad, so it only takes a turned ankle before a match before you need a third choice to at least be on the bench. If your starting player then goes down, or even just off temporariily with an HIA, then the whole team is suddenly reliant on players we haven't even properly identifed yet, let alone given game time.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:As Robson was in the squad aty teh start of teh season until injury struck, it may be Robson/Wiggy. Of course Robson is uncapped with Spencer being on the bench during the summer tests in SA.

Wigglesworth's place is uncertain. It looked a lot like Jones turned to him since he suddenly needed a back-up and hadn't really brought anyone through. Wigglesworth was one way of getting an experienced operator, and hoping he'd not look out of place when dropped straight in. Shades of Andy Gomarsall in the 2007 World Cup squad (he was 33, Wiigglesworth will be 36)

Jones has really hardly involved any other scrum half. He selected Robson and Michael Young for the Saxons in 2016, then promptly ignored both. He could have taken either of them to Argentina, but chose Jack Maunder. Like Spencer in South Africa, he didn't get any playing time of note.

You need two hookers and scrum halves in every match day squad, so it only takes a turned ankle before a match before you need a third choice to at least be on the bench. If your starting player then goes down, or even just off temporariily with an HIA, then the whole team is suddenly reliant on players we haven't even properly identifed yet, let alone given game time.

I wouldn't put it past him taking 2 hookers and/or 2 scrum-halves to the World Cup. I'd say 9 front row in a 31 man squad is too many, so you're more likely to see 8 with one position being covered. This can be a 5th prop covering both heads, or only selecting two hookers, as Wales and Australia did in 2015. In 2015, a lot of teams only picked 7 front row, and just had one extra to load onto the bench.

Looking back on the squads, Lancaster loaded up with 3 hookers, 5 props and 3 scrum-halves. Australia, by contrast, went for 2 hookers, 5 props and 2 scrum-halves which gave them room for an extra back row and an extra back.

To look at what Jones himself did, Japan picked 3 hookers, 4 props and 2 scrum halves. His 31 was essentially two full teams and an extra front row (in this case a hooker).

With the selections he's made, I can see Eddie potentially picking 2 hookers and 2 scrum-halves and hoping to manage these guys through the tournament. Instead of a third choice, I think he'd put 3 props on the bench in emergency and hope his starting hooker made it through. Same with the backs, put an extra back on the bench and hope someone like Ford could cover 9/10 from the bench and his first choice 9 made it through.

robbo277 wrote:...With the selections he's made, I can see Eddie potentially picking 2 hookers and 2 scrum-halves and hoping to manage these guys through the tournament...

You can try and do that. Gatland also chose two hookers last time. The thinking is, that if one of your guys is crocked but will recover for the next game, then you'll try and muddle through, because calling up cover means sending someone injured home.

There are a few points which count against that strategy this time.

The HIA protocol was part of law at the last World Cup but it has only really become part of the furniture in the years since. Players are far more likely to be taken from the field to do an HIA test. The return to play protocols are also being followed more assiduously. It's much easier to lose players than it was four years ago. Moreover, we have a player at hooker and co-captain who has a history of concussion.

Also, the new tackle directives have shown that even the most experienced players can get red carded. As far as I'm aware you can't send a red-carded player home and replace him. If you want to call up a replacement, you'll need to send someone else home.

Those are the two main differences which make a two hooker/two scrum half selection a riskier prospect than before. Not to mention the same risks which existed four years ago, namely, injury.

It's not as if we have an Austin Healey or Ben Foden in the squad, with scrum half experience. In the front row, LCD is a hooker who can play prop, when you'd need the opposite.

Good point about LCD who is our 3rd Hooker and was a LH prop once upon a time.

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...With the selections he's made, I can see Eddie potentially picking 2 hookers and 2 scrum-halves and hoping to manage these guys through the tournament...

You can try and do that. Gatland also chose two hookers last time. The thinking is, that if one of your guys is crocked but will recover for the next game, then you'll try and muddle through, because calling up cover means sending someone injured home.

There are a few points which count against that strategy this time.

The HIA protocol was part of law at the last World Cup but it has only really become part of the furniture in the years since. Players are far more likely to be taken from the field to do an HIA test. The return to play protocols are also being followed more assiduously. It's much easier to lose players than it was four years ago. Moreover, we have a player at hooker and co-captain who has a history of concussion.

Also, the new tackle directives have shown that even the most experienced players can get red carded. As far as I'm aware you can't send a red-carded player home and replace him. If you want to call up a replacement, you'll need to send someone else home.

Those are the two main differences which make a two hooker/two scrum half selection a riskier prospect than before. Not to mention the same risks which existed four years ago, namely, injury.

It's not as if we have an Austin Healey or Ben Foden in the squad, with scrum half experience. In the front row, LCD is a hooker who can play prop, when you'd need the opposite.

Well concussion and injury are risks, but any serious injury can be covered by calling a replacement. So we're looking at a temporary knock to a player that is expected to recover during the tournament.

What we have seen in the past is careful managing of the 31. E.g. in 2011 Sheridan injured his shoulder in the first game and Johnson didn't call in a replacement. Stevens and Easter were also struggling, so Johnson told Waldrom to travel to New Zealand, although didn't formally add him to the squad. Johnson waited for the situation to develop and eventually called Waldrom into the squad for Sheridan, as Stevens recovered to the extent he didn't need the extra option at prop. This gave Johnson the cover at 8 he wanted without replacing a player Easter, who featured for England against France.

So if we go with 2 specialist hookers and 2 specialist scrumhalves, we're likely to have 6 back row and 6 back three players, where we have more options we may want to look at. If we do take 6 back row and towards the end of the pool stage one of them gets ruled out of the tournament, you still have 5 back row to pick from. Your match day squad traditionally has 4 and never more than 5. So you might say as you are approaching the knockouts when you have a game a week and no rotation you don't need that 6th option, and you can leave that replacement as more of a "joker", to be played to cover a knock elsewhere. That replacement could then recover concussion return-to-play (although I imagine at the sharp end of the tournament you'd just replace the player, such is the unlikelihood of return), light injuries and red cards.

If we look at the 3rd choice options, I think Cowan-Dickie and Wigglesworth are prime candidates for the standby list. Experienced players and have had enough time in recent squads to jump in if required, but aren't seriously threatening the starting shirt or even the bench right now (in Eddie's eyes). In my opinion it's more likely with Robshaw, Wilson, Shields, Curry, Underhill, Vunipola, Hughes and Mercer all competing for back row berths and the confusion over our midfield and back 3 that he stacks those positions with a couple of extra guys.

Beeb reporting that they expect Manu to be ready for Australia but not before. Sounds like it is not a serious injury but is still hanging around.

Squad announcement at 11:30 GMT

Love the team bar lawes at 6. Called it a few weeks ago but cokanasiga is inevitably picking up a motm.

Daly; Cokanasiga, Nowell, Lozowski, Ashton: Ford, Care; Hepburn, George, Williams, Ewels, Itoje, Lawes, Wilson, Mercer.

Replacements: Hartley, Moon, Sinckler, Hill, Underhill, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Slade.

There wasn't anyone else in the squad, so it's no surprise, but it seems daft to yet again miss the chance to give experience to a third hooker.