England vs Japan - 3rd Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 17th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Paul Williams (NZ)
Assistant 1:  Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2:  Dan Jones (Wales)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England
 
Squad:

Forwards
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors) *, Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

*Apprentice

 



Japan


TBC

When you consider all the first choicers out through inury..then all the players in there today...with Farrell etc on the bench it was going to be a bit disjointed.

Now imainge the first choicers back..with one or two of these lads being brought in...and it bodes well.

Cokasaniga had a good game. Huge potential there...and the huge power runner we have been missing.

Agree, but I think it was still a couple of vets who dragged them over the line: Lawes had one of his best games playing for England and Farrell coming on changed the whole dynamic of the game.

I thought Underhill made a significant difference as well. He attacks the tackle in a way England have missed for a long time. Add to that his breakdown work and much improved carrying, he's quite some player.

RWC squads usually have 5 back rowers in them. I reckon Jones has Underhill and Tom Curry nailed on as his opensides, if Billy can get/stay fit he's an obvious banker. After that there is quite a scrap for two places which Wilson has thrown his hand up for very well.

No9 wrote:England has to fire Eddie now, if they are going to have a chance of getting out of the pool stages of the RWC.

Thank god the RFU are so thick they won’t  do it.

Japan beating England for 60mins in Twickenham. Well done Japan. The Wallabies will rip England apart.

Baa Baa baaaaaaaaaaa

king_carlos wrote:I thought Underhill made a significant difference as well. He attacks the tackle in a way England have missed for a long time. Add to that his breakdown work and much improved carrying, he's quite some player.

RWC squads usually have 5 back rowers in them. I reckon Jones has Underhill and Tom Curry nailed on as his opensides, if Billy can get/stay fit he's an obvious banker. After that there is quite a scrap for two places which Wilson has thrown his hand up for very well.

Plus Wilson covers 6/87/ and is even great at emergency lock if things go dire with the real locks.

Anyway...

Australia next....

Any one bar Cokasaniga put their hand up from the fringe / newbies?

Just seen highlights ref and touch judges let alot go. Japanese not on side all game, forward passes galore and blocking / taking men out etc. England were shocking for 55 min but come on. The worst one was their 8 constantly picking the ball up after being tackled when no clear release and was never on his feet. It was a mess until someone said stop playing frantically like them. Strangely enough when we stopped fannying about we didn't ship points and scored fairly easily. We don't have savvy players st the moment who can't think on their feet.

Dissapointed by lozowski, ewells shouldn't be anywhere near, Jamie George meh. Hepburn and Harry Williams don't look int quality. Hopefully Genge will be back soon.

Agree on Ewells...I don't get him being in the squad. He just doesn't have anything stand out. Or maybe im missing something.

The thing is...from this squad for the AI's who is missing that we can actually rely on being fit...who is key?

Mako is missing...he's generally fit.
Cole was dropped, but a shadow of his former self
Billy is NEVER fit
Manu is NEVER fit
Hughes is either not fit or in poor form or not good enough for this level
Marler has retired
Robshaw - better options now

Have I missed any.

So essentially bar maybe Mako...this AI squad is the strongest squad that's likely to be available...

With all respect to how Moon has played well, I think Mako and Genge would be a fearsome loosehead combo

Watson would be the other one I would expect to see in the starting 15 somewhere, but other than that I agree it's difficult to rely on the likes of Billy and Manu atm

Yoda wrote:Just seen highlights ref and touch judges let alot go. Japanese not on side all game, forward passes galore and blocking / taking men out etc. England were shocking for 55 min but come on. The worst one was their 8 constantly picking the ball up after being tackled when no clear release and was never on his feet. It was a mess until someone said stop playing frantically like them. Strangely enough when we stopped fannying about we didn't ship points and scored fairly easily. We don't have savvy players st the moment who can't think on their feet.

Agreed. The referee was very inexperienced and let a lot go.

I'd say both vunipola s walk back into the side. Genge goes back to the bench. Massively strengthens the squad. We have a 7 yay. We have shields as 6 for now with a couple of players coming up. We have Robson to come in which is needed before the world cup imo. Watson and Tuilagi would add massively. Cokanasiga has a whole load of potential.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree on Ewells...I don't get him being in the squad. He just doesn't have anything stand out. Or maybe im missing something.

The thing is...from this squad for the AI's who is missing that we can actually rely on being fit...who is key?

Mako is missing...he's generally fit.
Cole was dropped, but a shadow of his former self
Billy is NEVER fit
Manu is NEVER fit
Hughes is either not fit or in poor form or not good enough for this level
Marler has retired
Robshaw  - better options now

Have I missed any.

So essentially bar maybe Mako...this AI squad is the strongest squad that's likely to be available...

1.M Vunipola, Genge
2.Hartley, George
3.Williams, Sinckler
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Wilson, Robshaw
7.Underhill, T Curry
8.B Vunipola

9.Youngs, Care
10.Farrell, Ford

11.May, Nowell
12.Te'o, Manu
13.Joseph, Slade
14.Ashton
15.Daly, Watson

If I had to guess on players that Jones would definitely pick in a RWC squad if fit it would be those. Then you've got Hepburn, Moon, Cole, Ewels, Shields, Simmonds, Mercer and Hughes who have all played parts in the forwards. In the backs you've got Robson, Wigglesworth, Cipriani, Lozowski, Cokanasige, Solomona and Brown.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Schonert forces his way in as a bolter. It seems that Cole's lack of pace for the modern game has seen Jones move on, neither Williams or Sinckler have made the shirt their own yet.

Could Marcus Smith yet force his way into the reckoning?

Ahh I forgot about Genge..I think on form hes a better prospect than Mako..because of his set piece play. I hoe he gets a solid run injury free...

And yes Watson...but we have lots of decent wingers...and Coka has just put himself in the frame now aswell.

Robshaw...big call. Do people think hes still in the running?

I think Sinkler is still one to work with...hes got so much potential...id keep trying

A front row of

1 Genge / Mako
3 Sinkler

Would be explosive.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ahh I forgot about Genge..I think on form hes a better prospect than Mako..because of his set piece play. I hoe he gets a solid run injury free...

And yes Watson...but we have lots of decent wingers...and Coka has just put himself in the frame now aswell.

Robshaw...big call. Do people think hes still in the running?

I rate Robshaw higher than Shields personally. Wilson has taken his chance well but the biggest compliment that I can pay him is that he's replaced much of what the side loses with Robshaw injured. That said I've always been a fan of Robshaw, he is a player who divided opinion though.

If Underhill and Curry are the front line 7s then I think he's an ideal blindside. Particularly with the situation at 8 largely unknown. Even if Billy is fit then we have a fantastic number 8 but one that a hardworking blindside complements well.

Agree with most of Carloses picks there. I could see Care miss out though, his form is getting worse and if Robson stays fit he'd be a better bench option.

George does not fill me with confidence, another Hughes eg good club player but cant step up?

Haskell isn't completely out of the picture but, unless he gets over his injuries, and puts in some stand-out performances with Saints, it's hard to see Jones going back to him. Jones had all but said goodye to Haskell last year, and only called on him for the Six Nations when injuries took others out of contention.

It does look a bit like one from Robshaw-Shields-Wilson right now. Then again, Jones likes the fact there's captaincy experience there, even with Wilson, so he might trade that off for outright playing ability.

yappysnap wrote:Agree with most of Carloses picks there. I could see Care miss out though, his form is getting worse and if Robson stays fit he'd be a better bench option.

George does not fill me with confidence, another Hughes eg good club player but cant step up?

George is taking a lot of flak right now. Starting all three Lions tests in NZ suggests he's far more than a club play in my opinion. He's only had 6 starts for England, he was fantastic as a bench option when the side were winning but is one of many players to have struggled for consistency since the wins dried up.

The line-out as a whole has been poor for a fair while and as is often the case the hooker is now taking the flak for it as that's the easiest assumption to come to.

The difference between how England and Ireland have utilised their line-outs over the last year sums up the difference between the sides in my opinion. England view a successful line-out as retaining ball, Ireland view a successful line-out as providing a platform to dominate opposition. One is aiming to be functional, the other aiming to be ruthless.

Until these AIs George's set-piece has been very solid and his loose play dynamic. Three week tests as part of a side playing poor rugby doesn't make him a poor player. I'd back him to come good, but more importantly I definitely back him to do better than the alternatives...

I am probably in a minority, but I was a little underwhelmed by Cokanasiga. The promise is there, but I felt he looked a little slow of thought and feet. He will need to learn very quickly if he is to make the RWC.

I felt the officials were only looking at us in the first 50 minutes, with the offside against Underhill called by Uncle Nige hilarious, as Japan had been a yard further offside for the entire first half.

Yet we have to admit that the visitors made us look very silly at times. Very few starters did much to improve their prospects.

Hepburn, Ewels and Lozowski surely played their way out of contention for RWC places (unless Eddie has Barnes syndrome and kept mistaking the Wasp for Ford).

Mercer and Cokanasiga did not do enough to push their case.

George, Williams, Ford and Nowell did not show they deserve to start. Ashton was lacklustre while he was on, Daly continues to struggle with high balls while Care had the worst game I have seen from him. Youngs and Robson saw there reputations enhanced whilst not playing.

Itoje and Lawes were good, but should also take some responsibility for the lack of intensity we saw from the pack in the first half.


Eddie will have learnt much, but mostly bad news.

King_Carlos, what appears to be happening to me is whoever is calling the line is relying too much on club combos. If George is throwing in the majority of ball goes to Itoje, the opposition have a good idea that he is going to be the target and attack the throw in. Itoje is a good jumper but his more powerful physique means he is not as tall and doesn't have the arm length of Lawes of Ewels. The result is that it is harder for him than the others. When Harley is throwing, a lot go to Lawes, the club combo in action, but his physique allows him to get up higher and he has massive reach as was shown yesterday when he was plucking balls out of the air over the Japanese side of the lineout. The lineout callers need to trust the hooker to regularly hit other players irrespective of being club mates, if they can't do that, they need to be replaced with someone who can.

I agree with your last comment, the lineout should be used as weapon, not just a way of recycling the ball.

I suspect George was a 1st choice pick for the Lions due to Hartley being an idiot sometimes and didn't make the tour and the remaining choices being average at best. Although I am still not convinced that Barnes was correct in his assumption that Hartley was taking to him.

Different Lions tours WPI.

I think when Mako and/or Stone are back in the frame the pack's carrying ability will go up exponentially.    They will provide a focal point for other players.  I can’t see Hepburn being anywhere near the squad when the big hitters are back, as others have said he looks too lightweight for an international prop.   Moon looks nuggety and a decent scrummager (even at this level), but I am not sure he offers enough in open play.

The problem with the flak that George is getting is there is nobody ready to replace him.   He has long been groomed to be Hartley successor (let’s face it he is 32 and will be gone after the world cup).  Cowan-Dickie is just as prone to the yips and after that there are a number of good solid club pros.

I think we have to persevere with George; he is a good player who is having a rough patch.  He got read and picked off really badly by NZ, but it isn’t the first time that has happened to a hooker.

Saying that, England desperately needs to find some back up in this position long term.  We cannot rely on two players prone to lineout yips indefinitely.    I would be tempted to call up one or two of the younger players in the premiership as long term understudy:  Jack Singleton (Worcester) or Jack Walker (Bath).

One the positive side, the fresh blood in the back-row is finally coming through.  Underhill and Curry grabbed the headlines against NZ and S.A. but I was really impressed with Mercer when he came on against S.A. a couple of weeks ago.  I was a big fan of Ted Hill from his U20s’s days and I was pleased to see him sneak on yesterday, I think he will be a very good player.  Tom Willis would have been involved this autumn had he been fit (I’ve heard his younger brother is just as good if not better!).

06. Jack Willis, Ted Hill
07. Sam Underhill, Tom Curry
08. Zach Mercer, Sam Simmonds, James Chisolm, Tom Willis

With the ‘older’ players like Billy (hopefully!), Wilson and Robshaw to guide them, we should be in a healthy position post world cup.

LondonTiger wrote:Different Lions tours WPI.

True, just getting old, my memory is going.

LondonTiger wrote:
...
I felt the officials were only looking at us in the first 50 minutes, with the offside against Underhill called by Uncle Nige hilarious, as Japan had been a yard further offside for the entire first half.
...

Yep I noticed that at the time and made the same comment ... although I've noticed that about Nige before when he's an AR, always seems to spot England infringements whilst being blind to the other side.  I think all the AR calls in our favour came from the other AR.  I think I even heard him trying to put doubt in the ref's mind about Hartley's try when the replay was on the screen - something  like " ... happy with that, in control?"

Normally a team playing in black kit get away with murder at offsides

As always, loads of potential. However what real evidence is there to suggest the team squad will develop the necessary sinuous growth to compete against the top sides?
We're predictably a semi final side at best.
Ultimately there is insufficient inteligence across the entirety of english rugby and again we are wasting a massive opportunity to promote and hugely grow the game of rugby union.
Yesterday was pathetic especially 11 months out from the WC.
The story is financial and strategic corporate mismanagement, and our onfield display is just one expression of this scandal.
Far too many Meat trombone soloist continue to cry all the way to the bank while the english game burns.
If you don't recognise this as the truth then I suggest you take another look.
The best resourcedunion in the game with more than enough talent blows in the wind.

What are the exact problems and answers then? What should we have done yesterday?

BamBam wrote:

No9 wrote:England has to fire Eddie now, if they are going to have a chance of getting out of the pool stages of the RWC.

Thank god the RFU are so thick they won’t  do it.

Japan beating England for 60mins in Twickenham. Well done Japan. The Wallabies will rip England apart.

Baa Baa baaaaaaaaaaa

Very mature..... moron.

Obviously the union should by now have a serious elite player contract that enables the development of the top players in concert with the clubs, that restricts their playing demands and compensates the clubs.
But instead the union has prioritised its corporate function facilities over and above everything else......yes for real....the motivation being wtf knows other than to provide greater bonuses into the corporate swill tank that is twickenham and ho the head has now resigned due to cost overruns in the sums of 10s of millions.....yes really....and the artificial pitches promised as a windful after the last corporate bonus scheme.....2015 WC.....are now under review due to funding review!
As for yesterday, the selection was Poopie and the game plan rubbish.
Cole should be in with Attwood starting as Ewels hasn't deserved his selection in the first place.
Otoji should have been captain and Underhill should have started.
Morgan should have been on the bench.
Ford should be dropped and Cipriani should have been selected with Twelvetrees....its called form....with Slade out oc.
The only trial selection that worked was the big Bath wing otherwise the centres were awful. Wtf Jones was thinking well god knows.
As for Splash well its obviously a coaches call that has some merits though what happened to the Somoan shark is he injured?
Daly needs guidance though we dont really have any coaches that can help him.
Farrell on the bench had merits in case he were injured so this was a what if opportunity that was wasted.

Frankly we're a long way behind the curve and more of the same from Jones is a fail waiting to happen.

I think Hughes is now available.

So central contracts but also playing form players from the premiership. How would that work in reality then?
This ais has been used in part as prep for the world cup so the team flew in late for south Africa to replicate what they will have to do next year. This game was planned as a lot of changes as again that's what we have to do in a short turnaround next year. We're currently without some important players granted but we're in a very good place.

If we can get our forwards fit and playing together in the 6 nations, with Farrell and Cipriani at half back, then we should put together a couple of performances.
Its really all too late and last minute with playing partnerships taking longer to cement and evolve.
As always lots of potential but with Jones limited game plan we're stymied from the off.

No9 wrote:

BamBam wrote:

No9 wrote:England has to fire Eddie now, if they are going to have a chance of getting out of the pool stages of the RWC.

Thank god the RFU are so thick they won’t  do it.

Japan beating England for 60mins in Twickenham. Well done Japan. The Wallabies will rip England apart.

Baa Baa baaaaaaaaaaa

Very mature..... moron.

A lot more mature than your pathetic troll deserved.

kingelderfield wrote:If we can get our forwards fit and playing together in the 6 nations, with Farrell and Cipriani at half back, then we should put together a couple of performances.

Which one would you like at scrum half?

It's unlikely though not impossible for cipriani to come into the team. Seems more likely that Farrell will continue at 10 as Tuilagi is brought back into the team.
Time for a couple of bolters. Id have thought Robson could force his way in before the world cup if he manages to get fit. Cokanasiga looks promising. Players coming back of course greatly improve the pack.
How does dveloping or sticking with our combos work with integrating form players, along with central contracts.

You cannot reap the benefits of central contracts including rest periods and then pick the form players from the premiership.

I wonder who the form players are that are being ignored? I know Cipriani will be offered but his form until his ban was no better than Ford's. Armand also offered up, but the new lads brought in to the back row have done well.

Cole armand kvesic Goode barritt rhodes williams?

Lozowski has not proved himself beyond playing for Jones's favourite team. He's good but has not justified his selection.
Was the 19 yr old flanker in the squad or an injury cover call up?
Twelvetrees is the in form injury cover.
Nowell at 13 really? 11 months out from a wc ffs.
If you accept the premise of a wc injury selection then surely it would be a no brainer to play Daly at oc and have Nowell cover the fb. Thats just obvious.
Tuilagi does not seem able to not get broken by Jones. Leicester patches him up and jones brakes him everytime.
Are you seeing a pattern there......and so however much we'd all like to see his impact, what we all know is that it's to late in the peice for a truly Tuilagi intergrated centre attack, even as a finisher.

Cole in good form but not offering what Eddie wants. His time has gone.

I will give you Armand but do not think he is any better than those now in the team. If the likes of Wood, Haskell, Robshaw were being selected based on past glories we could be critical. Instead we have seen six guys with barely 10 caps between them.
Barritt is not the answer to our midfield issues, Williams may be one day but has only a handful of decent games so far. Goode, well his time has gone and other than 2013 he has always looked a bit average for England.

Hard t disagree with any of that lt. I do think williams has a chance to push before the 6ns but he's still a touch raw.

We dont have a serious elite squad contract, however what we have, which is useless, allows for injury cover.

kingelderfield wrote:.....
As for yesterday, the selection was Poopie and the game plan rubbish.
Cole should be in with Attwood starting as Ewels hasn't deserved his selection in the first place.
Otoji should have been captain and Underhill should have started.
Morgan should have been on the bench.
Ford should be dropped and Cipriani should have been selected with Twelvetrees....its called form....with Slade out oc.
The only trial selection that worked was the big Bath wing otherwise the centres were awful. Wtf Jones was thinking well god knows.
As for Splash well its obviously a coaches call that has some merits though what happened to the Somoan shark is he injured?
Daly needs guidance though we dont really have any coaches that can help him.
...

You don't do a lot to support your rants when you make mistakes

I think you are the only person I have seen who spell's Itoje's name 'otoji', and nobody is calling him captaincy material yet (although he is very smart)
Morgan was in the squad, did get injured and is only now playing for Gloucs off the bench. He is not in state to play internationals.
the SAmoan 'shark' - assuming you mean Manu Tuilagi - has had a niggle but the last they have said is that he will be ready for Australia..

I think lozowski has been very good in some of his england caps. Wasn't yesterday.
Do you mean hill king? He was in the squad. First season and massively impressive for Worcester so far, a form pick but clearly a player who given some luck will be very very good. May push ahead of isiekwe but I think more thought of as a potential 6 by england.
Daly needed that run of games at full back to see whether he could be used there. Possibly not with his aerial skills shown so far. Nowell could possibly play there but ain't fantastic in the air himself. Think it'll be Watson when he returns.
Tuilagi is class. Some players are unlucky with injury but he needs a chance as he can be world class.
If it's too late for Tuilagi though surely it's too late for cipriani twelvetrees et al?
How does central contracts sit with form picks?

Ford with Farrell is better than Farrell at 10, however Cipriani with Farrell put our best players on the pitch.

I think he means solomona?

kingelderfield wrote:Lozowski has not proved himself beyond playing for Jones's favourite team. He's good but has not justified his selection.
Was the 19 yr old flanker in the squad or an injury cover call up?
Twelvetrees is the in form injury cover.
Nowell at 13 really? 11 months out from a wc ffs.
If you accept the premise of a wc injury selection then surely it would be a no brainer to play Daly at oc and have Nowell cover the fb. Thats just obvious.
Tuilagi does not seem able to not get broken by Jones. Leicester patches him up and jones brakes him everytime.
Are you seeing a pattern there......and so however much we'd all like to see his impact, what we all know is that it's to late in the peice for a truly Tuilagi intergrated centre attack, even as a finisher.

Jones was looking to see how the wider squad would react to a short turn around against weaker but willing opponents at the RWC. In this case the logic of picking Nowell at 13 is clear given he does play 13 for his club at times.

In reality we never got an answer as with Ashton getting crocked early Nowell went straight out to the wing.

36? good question but it is also questionable that he would get into the RWC squad at 13, up against Manu, JJ, Marchant and yes, Slade.

It might be interesting to see how Nowell goes at FB, although he does not have Daly's kicking game and I don't know if he's any better under the high ball.

Yep, Hill and yes Solomona.....is he injured?

I was suggesting 36 at 12 with Cips at 10 in response as an alternative Japanease selection.