England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

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Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

Entirely possible, I just assumed that it would essentially be the same bench as previous games

George over Hartley is a surprise. Other than that, it's pretty much as we all wanted. Itoje and Lawes in the second row, flankers on the flank and Hughes and Manu on the bench with neither rushed back in.

NB: I did edit this post because I looked again at the thumbnail and thought "Hughes" was "Rhodes", but it was just my eyes playing tricks on me. Would have been a fairly wild call!

Big opportunity for George, he has to get the line out right, definitely not short of options to throw to with Shields and Wilson being capable jumpers

If he gets this area right and continues to show around the field, I think he will be first choice going into the 6N, which is likely the scenario Eddie is hoping for. Farrell gets to show himself as the captain, rather than this co captain nonsense

robbo277 wrote:George over Hartley is a surprise.

The common belief during Jones' tenure has been that Hartley is not an impact player, so it's better to start him in the matchday 23.

I wonder whether it has occurred to Jones that the team which finishes an England match is short on experience, because he often subs off older players. Bringing Hartley off the bench may stop the rugby nous level dropping so sharply. The main hope is that Hartley doesn't get so worked up on the sidelines that he does something silly when he gets on.

Thinking more about this, is Jones planning on bringing Farrell off? Potentially give Ford a chance to try to close the game out, in which case he might want Hartley on as well? I guess it would be better to give Ford the responsibility now, rather than in a potential World Cup knock-out game with Farrell hobbling off injured.

Closing a game in the World Cup, would you rather have Ford at 10 or Farrell at 10? The answer for me is obviously Farrell. So would you be better off starting with Farrell on the bench if it is one or the other? Or would you look at just playing Farrell through the 80 minutes if we got to the World Cup?

If Farrell nails down the 10 shirt, which most (all?) would say he has, is Ford a luxury on the bench? Because if you bring him on and don't take Farrell off, you have to at least move Farrell, which could be disruptive. Keep him in the squad by all means as your back-up 10, but is he worth his spot in the matchday squad?

Going forward, should we check out Slade as our 10 cover? We could have Farrell, Te'o, Slade and Tuilagi in a match day squad, and then you have options to mix up your centre partnership as well as injury cover for Farrell. It might be worth an experiment in the Six Naitons.

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:George over Hartley is a surprise.

The common belief during Jones' tenure has been that Hartley is not an impact player, so it's better to start him in the matchday 23.

I wonder whether it has occurred to Jones that the team which finishes an England match is short on experience, because he often subs off older players. Bringing Hartley off the bench may stop the rugby nous level dropping so sharply. The main hope is that Hartley doesn't get so worked up on the sidelines that he does something silly when he gets on.

Kinda ties in with my post on Ford/Farrell. Some good points raised here.

A lot of the time we look at the bench for attacking impact. That's certainly how Eddie has played it over the first few years. George, Sinckler, Care and Te'o all have a lot of caps off the bench and a lot of the time we saw that pace quickening.

Is that the right way to go about it in a World Cup tie? Knock-out rugby, where one error could be fatal?

Eddie will want to be finishing World Cup games with Hartley and Farrell on the pitch. Even if the calls were the issue against New Zealand, George came on and the lineout went bad. Would Hartley have been better at getting the pack together and giving the caller some more guidance after the first couple of losses?

Farrell can play the 80. Hartley possibly could, but would fade towards the end. Would it be better to have him on at 55 to navigate through the close? To talk through any big post/corner decisions with Farrell, who will also have a lot of responsibility as the kicker?

Just as confirmation to those wondering as no one has confirmed it yet:

England team to face Australia:

Daly; Cokanasiga, Slade, Te'o, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Underhill, Wilson.

Replacements: Hartley, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Hughes, Wigglesworth, Ford, Tuilagi

As I said previously, theres going to be quite a big onus on Te'o and Coka to get over the gainline and commit defenders opening the game for the more fleet footed...

Is Cokanasiga an intelligent player there is an English obsession with lumpy layers running over other players but it gets predicable , can he defend ,look for space and off load. I guess Australia is a good test for that.

Much different player to when he came into the Irish setup. Yes is the answer. Very good at spotting when player are in better positions. Defence so far no problem but australia should be a step up.albeit Japan are decent.

Good sign of that was the smart pass he made to Care (I think) for the try that started with Daly

He seems to know when to use his size and when to pass, so I've got high hopes

When do the Aussies usually name their team?

rosbif wrote:Is Cokanasiga an intelligent player there is an English obsession with lumpy layers running over other players  but it gets predicable , can he defend ,look for space and off load. I guess Australia is a good test for that.

Really? I'd think most England fan's would say the opposite. I wish we had a bit more muscle.
Who's lumpier than found in other teams?:
Manu - never plays
Billy - often injured
Cokanasiga - only 2nd start (due to injuries)
George - a bit chubby fair enough
......?

Cokanasiga looks good going forward, all to prove in defense I'd say

Nathan hughes, Ben Teo, Joe Launchbury, James Haskell etc. All a bit bulky. Some good players though.

We've had big 8s for a while but generally because they've been the best players. Morgan vunipola Hughes. Before that easter probably after mercer.
Goes in cycles doesn't it. Hopefully we don't get to the point we have to pick a rubbish big.player over a smaller better player.

I wonder if they have kept Francis, or indeed called up someone else, for when Manu is pulled before kick off?

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've had big 8s for a while but generally because they've been the best players. Morgan vunipola Hughes. Before that easter probably after mercer.
Goes in cycles doesn't it. Hopefully we don't get to the point we have to pick a rubbish big.player over a smaller better player.

I guess it goes back to the post 2003 period when we had Tindall, Noon, Hipkiss, Erinle and Banahan as our main options at 13 over the next 8 years. Tait was briefly tried but dumped by Gavin Henson and then by England, although got a short reprieve under Brian Ashton. This was in an era of Fourie, Smith, Jauzion, O'Driscoll - although in our defence it's not like we were leaving an O'Driscoll out for Dan Hipkiss.

Hipkiss was a very good player at Premiership level, he actually looked to have some finesse to his game but it just never worked out for him in the England shirt.

The Noon/Erinle days were very dark

robbo277 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've had big 8s for a while but generally because they've been the best players. Morgan vunipola Hughes. Before that easter probably after mercer.
Goes in cycles doesn't it. Hopefully we don't get to the point we have to pick a rubbish big.player over a smaller better player.

I guess it goes back to the post 2003 period when we had Tindall, Noon, Hipkiss, Erinle and Banahan as our main options at 13 over the next 8 years. Tait was briefly tried but dumped by Gavin Henson and then by England, although got a short reprieve under Brian Ashton. This was in an era of Fourie, Smith, Jauzion, O'Driscoll - although in our defence it's not like we were leaving an O'Driscoll out for Dan Hipkiss.

The most significant big lump v silky skills selection was Lesley Vainikolo over James Simpson-Daniel for the 2008 Six Nations, a baffling choice by Brian Ashton, of all people. It was a rare moment in Sinbad's career when he had a good injury-free run, and he went on to be named Guinness Premiership Player of The Season. Thanks, Brian.

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've had big 8s for a while but generally because they've been the best players. Morgan vunipola Hughes. Before that easter probably after mercer.
Goes in cycles doesn't it. Hopefully we don't get to the point we have to pick a rubbish big.player over a smaller better player.

I guess it goes back to the post 2003 period when we had Tindall, Noon, Hipkiss, Erinle and Banahan as our main options at 13 over the next 8 years. Tait was briefly tried but dumped by Gavin Henson and then by England, although got a short reprieve under Brian Ashton. This was in an era of Fourie, Smith, Jauzion, O'Driscoll - although in our defence it's not like we were leaving an O'Driscoll out for Dan Hipkiss.

The most significant big lump v silky skills selection was Lesley Vainikolo over James Simpson-Daniel for the 2008 Six Nations, a baffling choice by Brian Ashton, of all people. It was a rare moment in Sinbad's career when he had a good injury-free run, and he went on to be named Guinness Premiership Player of The Season. Thanks, Brian.

Very valid point. Simpson-Daniel was a name that came to mind, but couldn't think of a specific example like that. Vainikolo finished the tournament and his England career with 5 caps and 0 tries. Perhaps an unfair comparison, but another small, skillful winger Shane Williams scored 6 tries and won player of the tournament, almost as a "here's what you could have won".

Yuck just remember hape and tindal.
I think my point still generally stands though that England haven't made deliberate decisions of size merely gone for the best options. When that period is mid o late 00s and early 10s it was stark!

BamBam wrote:Hipkiss was a very good player at Premiership level, he actually looked to have some finesse to his game but it just never worked out for him in the England shirt.

The Noon/Erinle days were very dark

Too be fair, Erinle only got two caps and one of those was off the bench. His one start saw him replacing Shane Geraghty I believe.

I think I was thinking of Hape, 7.5 posting his name reminded me. Think I've tucked it away far from memory with the other traumatic experiences

Hughes is awful at test level, didn't Faff absolutely smash him back ?

And Farrell put retallick on his backside and all I've heard is how bad a tackler Farrell is foe the last 2 years.

We've had some crud over the last 10 years bam.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Farrell put retallick on his backside and all I've heard is how bad a tackler Farrell is foe the last 2 years.

Slight difference with a 5'6 SH knocking back a 6'4 number 8 several metres.

If you say so.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you say so.

You genuinely don't think so ?

I think de klerk is great defensively with a v good technique. To base a judgement of a one off incident isn't great. I still remember when beshocked kept bringing up may getting beaten for pace by a scrum half. Didn't really bring into that scrum half being matawalu that often. Hey but each to their own. I think Hughes is a good back up to a world class player. I'm happy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've had big 8s for a while but generally because they've been the best players. Morgan vunipola Hughes. Before that easter probably after mercer.
Goes in cycles doesn't it. Hopefully we don't get to the point we have to pick a rubbish big.player over a smaller better player.

Well, that's the biggest thing that was levelled at Sam Simmonds wasn't it - size

Mind you, the same thing was said for Neil Back

From jones yes. Still.picked him consistently when available though. To be wholly truthful you do need some bulk in a team particularly the pack. Balance is key isn't it. Exeter were playing 2 big lumps of flankers with england going smaller...just. now changing the style and make up of that back row.

rosbif wrote:Is Cokanasiga an intelligent player there is an English obsession with lumpy layers running over other players  but it gets predicable , can he defend ,look for space and off load. I guess Australia is a good test for that.

Are you feckin drunk????!!!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think de klerk is great defensively with a v good technique.  To base a judgement of a one off incident isn't great. I still remember when beshocked kept bringing up may getting beaten for pace by a scrum half. Didn't really bring into that scrum half being matawalu that often. Hey but each to their own. I think Hughes is  a good back up to a world class player. I'm happy.

Was that the incident when Mata wrong footed May then almost scored before being taken down by... May?

Yeah...

RUGBY.COM.AU

Pocock named to face England
TODAY AT 1:45 AM INTERNATIONAL
The Wallabies team has been named to face England. Photo: RUGBY.com.au/Getty Images
The Wallabies team has been named to face England. Photo: RUGBY.com.au/Getty Images
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Beth Newman Profile by Beth Newman
Wallabies star David Pocock has been named to play against England despite an injury question mark that had been hanging over his head.

Pocock sat out training on Monday and was limited to non-contact work on Tuesday, casting major doubt over his chances of playing but he showed enough at the team's final full training session of the year for Wallabies coach Michael Cheika to pick him to play in the season finale.

The no. 8 will still be monitored closely heading into the match after suffering a neck injury in the Wallabies' 26-7 win over Italy last weekend.

Pocock was the only major injury worry for the Wallabies this week with Cheika sticking with much of the starting team that went down to Wales a fortnight ago.

Cheika has brought veteran tighthead Sekope Kepu into the starting lineup at for the clash, his first run-on spot since the Sydney Bledisloe in August.

Tolu Latu has been handed the hooking reins for the biggest Test of their November campaign, pipping Folau Fainga'a for the season finale.

The Wallabies will wear their Indigenous jersey at Twickenham this weekend. Photo: Getty Images
The Wallabies will wear their Indigenous jersey at Twickenham this weekend. Photo: Getty Images
Matt To'omua has retained the chief playmaking spot after an impressive effort against Italy and interestingly, Bernard Foley will line up at 12 again.

In a shock move, Kurtley Beale has been left out of the team entirely, the first time in recent memory that the dynamic back has missed selection when fit and available.

Israel Folau has stayed at fullback even with the return of Dane Haylett-Petty to the starting side after playing off the bench in Italy.

Jack Maddocks will start on the opposite wing for the first time since the Wallabies' win over South Africa in Brisbane.

Will Genia will play his 100th Test in the Twickenham encounter, becoming the 10th Wallaby and second Australian halfback to reach that feat.

England named their team earlier on Thursday local time, with Manu Tuilagi on the verge of a comeback from a long Test absence.

Australia takes on England at Twickenham on Saturday November 24, kicking off at 3pm local, Sunday 2am AEDT, LIVE on beIN Sports and SBS.

TEAM
IN: Tolu Latu, Jack Maddocks, Nick Phipps, Sefa Naivalu

OUT: Marika Koroibete, Kurtley Beale, Taniela Tupou, Adam Ashley-Cooper

Wallabies to face England

1. Scott Sio (54 Tests)

2. Tolu Latu (11 Tests)

3. Sekope Kepu (102 Tests)

4. Izack Rodda (16 Tests)

5. Adam Coleman (30 Tests)

6. Jack Dempsey (9 Tests)

7. Michael Hooper (c) (90 Tests)

8. David Pocock (77 Tests)

9. Will Genia (99 Tests)

10. Matt To’omua (41 Tests)

11. Jack Maddocks (6 Tests)

12. Bernard Foley (67 Tests)

13. Samu Kerevi (24 Tests)

14. Dane Haylett-Petty (30 Tests)

15. Israel Folau (72 Tests)

Reserves

16. Tatafu Polota-Nau (88 Tests)

17. Jermaine Ainsley (2 Tests)

18. Allan Alaalatoa (30 Tests)

19. Rob Simmons (93 Tests)

20. Ned Hanigan (19 Tests)

21. Pete Samu (8 Tests)

22. Nick Phipps (70 Tests)

23. Sefa Naivalu

Wow, 310 caps on the bench and 728 in the starting 15. Not exactly an experimental side then.

There are some very good players in that side, but are some of them starting to get beyond there play-by date?

Will we target Foley with Te'o and Cokanasiga running hard down his channel, he is game, but at 14 st is he going to stop those two monsters, shades of George Ford, tackle them yes, but give up 2m each time.

Didn't they used to hide Foley out on the wing in defence? Not sure who would step in to 10 in this team

Why not start with Tuilagi and Banahan, surely Ewels could make fb his own?
35 yr old borehorse
Farrell
21st 9yr old wing
Te'o
Tuilagi
Banners
Ewel probably Mercer

Jones really is the master...........I'm just looking forward to all the kicking.....yer im so excited by Jones masterstrokes......such creativity should be appreciated for what it is?
Dire.... ..

Banahan and mercer aren't in the squad.
What have you against cokanasiga though on a serious note? He's quality.

Nothing, fingers crossed hell become a real option.
However with current halfs and strategy hell be wasted until we bring on ford and move farrell to 12.

Can't see why that would be. We've done well so far this ais and should really be on a clean sweep. Thought you'd be happy for once!

When did Toomua become To'omua?

His wife helped the Aussies get into a world final yesterday, so hopefully there is no double family celebration.

LondonTiger wrote:When did Toomua become To'omua?

His wife helped the Aussies get into a world final yesterday, so hopefully there is no double family celebration.

Is he eligible for Ireland?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Just as confirmation to those wondering as no one has confirmed it yet:

England team to face Australia:

Daly; Cokanasiga, Slade, Te'o, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Underhill, Wilson.

Replacements: Hartley, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Hughes, Wigglesworth, Ford, Tuilagi

So who covers wing and fullback?

As much as Im happy for Tuilagi that hes fit enough to get a 15 minute cameo England have ended up with 4 players covering center (5 if you include Daly). I know this is largely the product of injuries but its a concern for me that England have such a lack of cover and such an inexperienced pack. the Aussie side may look a bit stale and full of players who some consider past their sell by date or proven failures but they are likely to be a much more cohesive unit.

Think Slade could cover full back at a push, but we're struggling for wing cover

There was an interesting article on Toomua's heritage and why he is now To'omua the other day, I'll try and dig it out

https://www.playersvoice.com.au/matt-toomua-my-name-isnt-my-name/

BamBam wrote:Think Slade could cover full back at a push, but we're struggling for wing cover

There was an interesting article on Toomua's heritage and why he is now To'omua the other day, I'll try and dig it out

Slade or possibly Ford could go to 15 with Daly moving out to the wing. Not an ideal scenario, but would hopefully be able to tide us through a half of rugby if needed.

Oh yea, forgot all about Daly

Pocock ruled out due to injury. Samu will be promoted off the bench. Not sure we've had the Aus team yet, but that's some late news.

From memory To'ouma and Foley are at 10/12. Folau is in at 15.

Team is above, posted by 7.5

Didn't actually realise they'd gone for a 6:2 split on the bench originally

No Pocock is excellent news for us