England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

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Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

When you think about World Cup squad contenders, it's worth considering some "what if?" scenarios.

For instance, say a player was unavailable for the Six Nations through injury but made a full recovery by the time of the warm-up matches. Assume also (a big assumption) that our Six Nations campaign goes OK.

Which players would Jones drop straight back in the team, no matter how well others had performed in his absence?

Viliami Vunipola
Mako Vunipola
Owen Farrell
Ben Youngs
Maro Itoje
Jonny May
Elliot Daly

After that, I'm not so certain. Two from Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis would probably make the matchday squad, with at least one starting, but I'm not sure which. Hartley and George seen locked in as a pair but we don't know which way around.

You can also ask who would miss out on selection, if they couldn't confirm their case in the Six Nations. Arguably, almost every other back row specialist, including Robshaw. Would Jones take a chance on Tuilagi if he never got to play him in a Six Nations match? Probably not.

My take on the Farrell "tackle" was that Farrell was running at 90 degrees to Rodda, he turned his shoulder into Farrell which put him further inside Farrells line. You can see that Farrell's left arm was coming around to engage but Rodda's turn in enforced the contact before the arm could get there.

What amazes me is that Rodda was going flat out, he outweighs Farrell by at least 60lbs and had all the momentum, Farrell had no forward impetus as he was coming cross field, but Rodda was stopped like he had hit a brick wall. Farrell bounced back a foot, but Rodda was on his back.

This is what the AB are scared of, somehow Farrell seems to be able to defeat the laws of physics.

I love Taylorman's cracks at what people see in Farrell, successive England coaches, arguably the best club side in England and the British Lions coaches all have had him as one of the first players on the team sheet.

It's fairly obvious Farrell is the first name on the team sheet. A full compliment if players come the 6ns or world cup would give jones quite a headache though!
Big build up to the ireland game now. Jones will know that's the only game where we were beaten comprehensively and he'll be wanting to make a statement. We suddenly now have big carrying options and subtlety in the backline and a back row that should be able to meet any challenge head on.

In regards Farrell I was expecting a pen try but hey we've had some bad decisions go against us this year do I'm sure no one really minds one goes with us.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:"Well once again he got away with it, point being that because he didnt ‘learn’ his lesson and instead ‘celebrated’ what he’d done v SA, he gets to repeat it shortly after, and Folau skinned him on one of those ‘rush ups to contain’. Folau looked anything but contained. Oppositions have clearly started using what he does.

Looks like the lesson might have to be given out on the biggest stsge next year, for either of his silly methods."

Did you actually look at the result, seems to work for me. Saracens doing the same, seem pretty successful too. Just because he got skinned once, does not mean the practice does not work overall. How many tries have England  shipped this Autumn with this tactic?

As an aside, I have just watched the BBC highlights on BBC2, who was that commentator, she was absolutely rubbish. I have noticed it more and more female commentators being pushed into positions where they have no experience and little knowledge. It is just the BBC trying to bring about gender equality and in doing so bringing in inexperienced, un-knowledgable and monotone commentators to make the stats look better, experience and ability disregarded on the grounds of Gender. On Sky they have Maggie Alphonsi, who understands the game and makes good and sensible dialogue to the commentary.

WpI

I have to say I generally don't care who commentates (my favorite by a country mile is Brian Moore) but the woman and Mike tindall were awful yesterday. . It was like she was reading from a script .and brought out all the cliches...

Tindall was awful aswell.

Common beeb...get Butler and Moore back together

England's RWC schedule means that they will need to have a full squad of 31 players whom Eddie would be happy to start, because to win the thing we will need to win five hard games on the trot (Argentina and France are our last two pool games, followed by QF, SF, Final with no break between them).

I think Eddie's squad selection is going to be influenced by that, and I would not be surprised to find a number of the more experienced internationals left out for the 6N, especially the older ones or ones with a lot of recent game time and wear and tear, only to resurface in the RWC squad.

That way, he gets to protect their fitness while also giving more experience to some of the newer members of the squad.

I think he will pick a large group for the summer training camp, whittle them down pretty quickly - possibly even before the warm up games - and then have a squad that he is comfortable rotating through the tournament itself, because he is going to have to rest players, or at least swap them to the bench, to ensure that England can maintain the required intensity for five weeks.

I would not set too much store by his 6N selections, or even by how England go in the 6N. For England more than any other side bar France and Argentina, it's about arriving in Japan with as close to two full starting XVs as he can get.

Back to the rugby though....

What to do with a conundrum like Elliott Daly. ?

There's better 13s. There's better wingers. 15 or the bench for me.

Yeah that's my thoughts 7.5

Although is Slade playing well for that shirt?

I don't think slade has made it his own. He's had moments where he's looked very good but let's face it if Joseph and Tuilagi are fit it'll be between them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's better 13s. There's better wingers. 15 or the bench for me.

He isn't a fullback either, though. Very unreliable under the high ball and his defensive positioning at the back is poor. Unless those things improve rapidly, it will cost England dearly before too long.

So when all fit...at their best...whats the best back 3?

And is there any actual full backs coming through who could make a late play for the spot. I cant think of any EQ full backs pulling up trees.

Slade could cover FB if Watson doesn't nail it. He's got the skills and spacial understanding, though he doesn't have either Daly or Watson's pace.

He's just about covered FH for Exeter and so I've no doubt FB is an option.

As to his current form? I think you have to answer this in the context of those inside of him, namely RSM Farrell and recently returned Te'o who are themselves only now reacquainting themselves.

Therefore for me Slade has had to manage the line which has cost him in attack, though I'd agree he is no 'Jamie Joseph'!

What you obviously have to remember though is that both Tuilagi and Joseph have to prove their consistent fitness and therefore I'd expect to see Tuilagi from the bench for the foreseeable future.

Not sure what you have against Farrell. Absolute quality player.

Decent series, but I think England are still in a somewhat vulnerable position with just a year out tbh:

FB: the new boy we have is great going forward but can’t catch & isn’t great positionally. Brown anyone?
Centre combo: JJ (longterm sicknote), Slade (a bit meh), Teo (okish), Farrell (can’t make up his mind whether he’s a 10 or 12), (and I won’t even mention the M word), and we tried Nowell.
FH: is it OF or Ford fgs?
SH: who’re number 2 & 3 – an ageing safe-pair of hands or a headless chicken or someone else who never gets a chance?
BR: will Villy ever be fit again, has Robshaw had his day, has the bright new 7 Curry now had his chance, why was such a fuss made over Shields when he's so average? Mind you, Wilson & Underhill look good, now if we could just add our best no 8…
Captain: mad Farrell or ageing Dylan?
Wings, FR & 2ndR: looking pretty decent (altho a 3rd hooker with more test experience and who knows where the barn door is might be useful, and can someone teach Itoje some rugby nous?).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure what you have against Farrell.  Absolute quality player.

Yer yer yer......no ones doubting his abilities, but you have to understand his deficiencies, namely his inability to drive a dominant side into scoring try's.

Simply, just compare our positional shape and options with Ford and Farrell as opposed to Farrell and T'eo. Quite frankly its day and night and though you can highlight Ford's defensive weaknesses, for me as for for many, it is obvious that our ability to score and so win is far greater with a 2 pronged half option.

Obviously he's also a wide geographical simian.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Decent series, but I think England are still in a somewhat vulnerable position with just a year out tbh:

FB: the new boy we have is great going forward but can’t catch & isn’t great positionally. Brown anyone?
Centre combo: JJ (longterm sicknote), Slade (a bit meh), Teo (okish), Farrell (can’t make up his mind whether he’s a 10 or 12), (and I won’t even mention the M word), and we tried Nowell.
FH: is it OF or Ford fgs?
SH: who’re number 2 & 3 – an ageing safe-pair of hands or a headless chicken or someone else who never gets a chance?
BR: will Villy ever be fit again, has Robshaw had his day, has the bright new 7 Curry now had his chance, why was such a fuss made over Shields when he's so average? Mind you, Wilson & Underhill look good, now if we could just add our best no 8…
Captain: mad Farrell or ageing Dylan?
Wings, FR & 2ndR: looking pretty decent (altho a 3rd hooker with more test experience and who knows where the barn door is might be useful, and can someone teach Itoje some rugby nous?).

Maybe Mercer can take that spot once he develops a little more. Until then...

Re-watching the match and our 1st half was really poor against a tired, weak Ozy selection.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Decent series, but I think England are still in a somewhat vulnerable position with just a year out tbh:

FB: the new boy we have is great going forward but can’t catch & isn’t great positionally. Brown anyone?
Centre combo: JJ (longterm sicknote), Slade (a bit meh), Teo (okish), Farrell (can’t make up his mind whether he’s a 10 or 12), (and I won’t even mention the M word), and we tried Nowell.
FH: is it OF or Ford fgs?
SH: who’re number 2 & 3 – an ageing safe-pair of hands or a headless chicken or someone else who never gets a chance?
BR: will Villy ever be fit again, has Robshaw had his day, has the bright new 7 Curry now had his chance, why was such a fuss made over Shields when he's so average? Mind you, Wilson & Underhill look good, now if we could just add our best no 8…
Captain: mad Farrell or ageing Dylan?
Wings, FR & 2ndR: looking pretty decent (altho a 3rd hooker with more test experience and who knows where the barn door is might be useful, and can someone teach Itoje some rugby nous?).

Maybe Mercer can take that spot once he develops a little more. Until then...

The pack do look good and with so many to come back things look good for the future. That said, all three of Simmonds, Hughes and Vunipola should be made to prove their selection given Wilson's performance.

Mercer is probably our 5th number 8 though he could probably show Farrell how to create space in a back line.

I think Mercer has all the attributes to make the 8 spot his..but he's still developing so it may be after this world cup.

Billy V needs to get fit and stay fit.
Simmonds...is an explosive back row player who also does a huge amount of graft and usually has a very high tackle count.
Hughes for me is not the answer.

Wilson is a makeshift 8, but he's Mr consistent and just a seriously tough guy. Theres better / more x factor  players listed above...but you know what you get with Mark and I think Eddie is now appreciating that.

Yeah Farrell is possibly 1 of a small handful of world class players we have. Madness to think there are people who would leave him out.

I am very pleased with England Ais. But does any one think that by now, we shoulkd have a settled team. I know you can help injuries and so forth. But we still seem to be Experimenting with players in different positions

(Daily at full back) Farrell at 10 Teo/slade in the centres. second choice scrum half Care Wigglesworth.

Will we actually see a settled team in the 6ns?

Maj.....the corps don't care......its just business so why bother with the expense of union club contracts when the status quo superficially hides the cracks.
All they want to do is get their ticket sales and hospitality. The mass fans across the country aren"t the immediate customers so why care what they want?

7 your making stuff up again.

In regards to Farrell being world class.I think he is. I think a lot would agree.

You a strange fella. Go find yourself a phone box and you'll be fine.

So you don't agree es world class. I'm gutted. It's not really making stuff up though simply stating an opinion.

Is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour.....

Ford and Farrell is better than Farrell and Te'o.
Now that wasn't too difficult was it?

May well agree with that. Certainly its just another tactic england can use. Strange to pluck that out of thin air saying im making stuff up.and accuse me of starting an argument. Ironic.

Ford and Farrell worked well, but Jones obviously wanted to try other centres and Fords been a bit meh for England.

just finished reading through the comments during the game and you lot are a negative bunch. i thought it was a fairly dominate 13-13 at half time by England, texted my mate at half time and said all we need to do is keep the ball better and we'll walk the second half. the aussies only really threatened in broken field

people jumping all over farrell again aswell i see, i can certainly see why a pen could have been given and wouldnt have whinged. but its quite difficult to wrap a arm when a big second row is putting you on your backside. it was good cover but in rushing over he got himself into a bad body position where he was never in a position to put a proper tackle in. anybody else and i doubt anyone would still be talking about it.

Decent series for England, and I agree it does look positive if we can get our first choice team out.

Back line combinations are still to be settled and that will have to be a focus for this Six Nations. If Watson is fit, Jones will have a decision to make at full back, although he could still parachute Brown back in for the World Cup.

full back and centre partnership is the only worry. we have been decimated with injuries and still done well. the squad depth in the pack can handle even a big injury crisis, although if we have we want to win the world cup i think billy needs to be fit.

we have more than enough cover on the wings and plenty who can play ten. scrum half cover is a worry with cares form and i think wigglesworth is too slow

Oh what a beautiful morning, oh what a beautiful day..........

That was a great Autumn from all the home nations, the SH are running scared.

Roll on the 6 Nations and roll on Dublin. thumbsup

compelling and rich wrote:full back and centre partnership is the only worry. we have been decimated with injuries and still done well. the squad depth in the pack can handle even a big injury crisis, although if we have we want to win the world cup i think billy needs to be fit.

we have more than enough cover on the wings and plenty who can play ten. scrum half cover is a worry with cares form and i think wigglesworth is too slow

Centre we have a lot of options and it's about trying to get the blend right. We've had plenty of guys prove they can play. Full back is a slightly different proposition though.

Midfield options:

Farrell at 10 with Te'o at 12 and Joseph/Slade/Manu at 13
OR
Ford/Farrell at 10/12 with Joseph/Slade/Te'o/Manu at 13

A few pundits on twitter have been vocal about the midfield that finished the Australia game (Ford/Farrell/Manu) and stated that it's something Jones has probably been looking forward to a while. If Tuilagi stays fit, could we see that for the fist Six Nations game?

Tuilagi fitness is a gamble unless he is seriously protected in the run up to the RWC.

A very good win for England it has to be said. I see very little between England, Wales and Ireland myself. All 3 still behind the All Blacks but the gap is closing rapidly.

For me, England really need to look at Itoje. He is an excellent player but his discipline is really lacking and I think it is what is holding him back from being an absolutely outstanding player.

Sinckler, well he is just a monster but also one that needs to be calmed down a lot.

Farrell, ok, on another day with different officials he could have seen a YC and his hit could have been deemed a penalty Try but he is still the best 10 England have and is still very much one of the best 10's in rugby. Not sure he is Captain material though, he really did not seem to control the lads in the first half and when Hartley came on, I could see far better leadership.

Daly, well I don't believe that he has to be in the squad at all if I am honest. For me, England have better more powerful wingers, better centres and better 15's. At best he is a bench option.

Wilson was a machine and my MoTM by a country mile.

TightHEAD wrote:Tuilagi fitness is a gamble unless he is seriously protected in the run up to the RWC.

The point is at centre we have options. He can go with Tuilagi if he's fit, either outside Farrell and Te'o or outside Ford and Farrell. If he's not fit, Joseph or Slade could play in either of those combinations, or Te'o could play outside Ford and Farrell.

Jones will need to know his first choice midfield, but also his options if any of those given players are injured. His thinking shouldn't just be consigned to "with Manu" or "without Manu".

whats people opinions on how slade has done? for me he's been ok without being outstanding. manu certainly gets back in if hes fit. thats a big old if these days though. still not sold on the ford farrell 10 12 partnership. for a while ive been asking to play players in their correct positions. farrell is our best 10 so play him there

for large parts (japan game aside) this autumn we have been getting players playing in correct positions and our performances have improved because of it

The problem with OF at 10, is that then we only seem to have Teo/Slade at centre – this is an ok combo but won’t worry the top sides too much. And here we have England’s (and EJ’s) biggest problem – would a side with this combination be good enough to win a RWC? At least with OF at 12, we only have to find a 13 to pair. I think we miss (a fully fit & on form) JJ more than any other player. Manu is always just a tweak way from the physio table and is at best an occasional impact player off the bench (personally I think the poor guy should forget about test rugby and protect the rest of his club career).

And Daley has had enough exposure now to show he is only an okish FB (given he’s a can’t catch-won’t catch).

Then, Itoje has many qualities, but no rugby nous and so is a penalty-fest (fitness allowing I’d have Launch/Lawes as 2nd row with Itoje on the bench).

So that currently gives us an ok centre combination, an ok FB, and a penalty machine. This is… err ok, but it probably won’t win a RWC.

I really see no issue with Farrell at 10 for England except that I feel he works better with a more attacking 9 than with Youngs (people will say he works with Wigglesworth but for me that is an entirely different dynamic).

I really do not feel he works at 12 with Ford at 10 and the same I feel that if Farrell is at 10 the Teo should not be at 12.

Most of us were fairly supportive of Lancaster when he replaced Farrell with Ford in the 6Ns preceding the 2015 RWC. England looked better for the change. We have also since seen how good the Ford and Farrell combo can be, but overall, when the chips are down and it is Ireland or Wales or NZ smashing you backwards then Farrell is the better option. In those trying circumstances it is better to get some hefty centres on board to help get some go forward. If England's forwards are in the ascendancy then having Ford on the pitch is a good move and therefore having him as a bench option is perfect. Flexible tactics and thinking will be required. For Ireland away in the 6Ns I go with as much muscle as possible and then look for creativity later on.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's better 13s. There's better wingers. 15 or the bench for me.

He isn't a fullback either, though. Very unreliable under the high ball and his defensive positioning at the back is poor. Unless those things improve rapidly, it will cost England dearly before too long.

Watching the prem highlights tonight...if Wasps Ross Neal and particularly Gloucester's Ben Thorley develop nicely...there could even be more competition for that wing spot.

Has Mullins been playing FB at Sarries?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Has Mullins been playing FB at Sarries?

Malins? Not that I have seen.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Has Mullins been playing FB at Sarries?

Malins? Not that I have seen.

That's the boy. I recall seeing him play there possibly last season and the boy has talent. Not small, pretty quick, fantastic feet and a great rugby brain. He'd be one to keep an eye I think.

He played 10 against us this weekend (and in the 3 Premium Cup fixtures, where John Gallagher's son played FB). With Goode continuing his excellent club form, cannot see Malins getting many FB opportunities at Sarries.

He's played there but he just doesn't get the games from saracens. Seems 2 extremes from saracens either you get thrown in at 18 or you pick up dribs and drabs of games until you're 25.

He created a fantastic try for Lewington from 10 over the weekend

BamBam wrote:He created a fantastic try for Lewington from 10 over the weekend

He did, and if Cipriani had thrown that final pass it would have been lauded from the heights. Of course an easier try scoring pass was available earlier in his run if he had looked right rather than cutting inside. Malins looks a cracking player, though maybe he has saved his best performances for against us, but the presence of Farrell and Goode will restrict his game time. It should also be noted that his goal kicking is shocking which could be an issue for his long term future at 10.

It is always difficult for clubs trying to fit in young players when they play in positions held by guys of international quality. It has been a long haul for Tompkins at Sarries and seems it will be the same for Malins. Of course back in 2013 Leicester failed to keep George Ford happy at a time when Toby Flood was still playing for England.