England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

Well, after 3 years of struggling with one of England’s weak areas, EJ does seem to have identified some decent players for the BR (more by luck (bad luck thro injuries that is) than design IMO) - just need to get the best on the pitch at the same time. Robshaw, Wilson, Underhill, Curry, Billy, (plus Hughes, Simmonds, Shields if you insist) isn’t too shabby. A BR of Wilson, Underhill & Billy looks tasty (altho maybe unlikely with inevitable injuries). A BR of Lawes, Shields and Hughes on the other hand would result in a riot – by the fans, not on the pitch.

Lawes/Launchbury in the engine room, Itoje as cover. Throwing lessons after school for George. Mindfulness course for Itoje. Now you’re cooking with gas.

Just the centres, FB and SH to sort Eddie.

A BR of Lawes, Shields and Hughes on the other hand would result in a riot – by the fans,

I'd almost pay to see that - Eddy hit by a blizzard of prawn sandwiches and some sternly written emails.

TrailApe wrote:

A BR of Lawes, Shields and Hughes on the other hand would result in a riot – by the fans,

I'd almost pay to see that - Eddy hit by a blizzard of prawn sandwiches and some sternly written emails.

It would sum up the England team...an Englishman, A kiwi and a Fijian.

It would sum up the England team...an Englishman, A kiwi and a Fijian

Courney Lawes English?

I thought he was from Hackney...

TrailApe wrote:

It would sum up the England team...an Englishman, A kiwi and a Fijian

Courney Lawes English?

I thought he was from Hackney...

Good Point...

As always with England selection debates, I think it's important to clarify if you're saying what you would do or predicting what Eddie might do!

I think there is enough room in the squad for Robshaw, Shields, Wilson, Underhill and Vunipola, and then there's possibly one or two more spots. Maybe Curry and Hughes most likely. I think Eddie could plump for those names this spring.

I think Wilson has earned a shirt for the start of the Six Nations. 6 unless he's needed to fill in elsewhere. I think with Wilson and Underhill we have a very aggressive set of flankers who can really help our continuity in attack by smashing through breakdowns. Vunipola is the obvious choice at 8, but obviously this needs to be caveated with "if fit".

If you start with Wilson you can put a flanker on the bench and have Wilson cover 8. Or you can have Lawes cover 6 and put an 8 on the bench, so we're quite versatile. Looking forward to the World Cup, I think finishing games with experience on the pitch would help, so possibly Robshaw or Shields on the bench would be the way to go.

6. Wilson
7. Underhill
8. Vunipola
20. Robshaw

robbo277 wrote:..I think there is enough room in the squad for Robshaw, Shields, Wilson, Underhill and Vunipola, and then there's possibly one or two more spots. Maybe Curry and Hughes most likely...

Ultimately, it's going to come down to a trade-off between Jones wanting as many top class players on the pitch at the same time (Kruis, Lawes, Itoje & Launchbury all in a matchday 23) or striving for a more balanced back-row, with those players you mention getting priority. Can't help feeling Shields is getting a look-in because of his potential line-out value, and perceived rugby nous (i.e he's a Kiwi).

The challenge for Robshaw is that, as a six, he looked effective with Vunipola carrying, and Haskell given a simple brief to put himself about with gusto.

Almost all the other back row combinations he has featured in, have been less effective. He played seven, with Lawes at 6 and Simmonds at 8 against Italy and Wales, and it was a struggle at the breakdown, even in victory. When Simmonds was replaced by Hughes against Scotland and France, it was even worse, and we lost. By the time Ireland came around, Robshaw was back at six, with Haskell at seven (albeit probably not at his best) and Simmonds ar eight. That wasn't right either.

Robshaw paired with Curry in South Africa, and it still didn't look brilliant, albeit that pairing featured in the last match victory.

It doesn't seem to suit Robshaw to play seven with someone like Lawes or Itoje at six. Unless Vunipola is at eight, he hasn't worked well with other players at seven, either. Perhaps a Robshaw/Vunipola/Underhill back row would work but it doesn't do much for our line-outs.

It's been a while since Robshaw has impressed in an England shirt. I know stats can be twisted to show anything, but is Wilson's impressive ruck stat a reason the breakdown went so well this AI?

Hard to know without a breakdown of mins on pitch etc. As I said it's a nice stat but doesn't tell you much. The breakdown went well because the attack was more organised for me . In that I think players had more specific instructions in attack and support so in part yes.

Ok so there seems to be some dispute over the back row selection so we'll move on.

What about the front row .

Has Sinkler nailed that TH position or is Dan Cole still an option? Where does Williams stand?

Loosehead. Moon seemed to look ok actually. Will he challenge mako? Will Genge drop in?

Vunipola hooker TBD sinckler
Genge TBD williams.
Love sinckler think he's a tighthead nearest to challenging Furlong for beat in the world tbh. His scrummaging is vastly underrated. Not so enamoured with williams and there isnt the strength in depth of loose head. Hooker either or of hartley and George with LCD and dunn maybe Taylor?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok so there seems to be some dispute over the back row selection so we'll move on.

What about the front row .

Has Sinkler nailed that TH position or is Dan Cole still an option? Where does Williams stand?

Loosehead. Moon seemed to look ok actually. Will he challenge mako? Will Genge drop in?

1.Mako, Genge, Moon
3.Sinckler, Williams, Cole

If all fit the I'd wager 5 from those 6 will be in the RWC squad. If the set-piece is malfunctioning then Cole would be a useful squad member, he clearly doesn't fit the EJ game plan of maximising ball carriers in the pack though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard to know without a breakdown of mins on pitch etc.  As I said it's a nice stat but doesn't tell you much. The breakdown went well because the attack was more organised for me . In that I think players had more specific instructions in attack and support so in part yes.

How does the breakdown improve with a more organised attack?

I personally think we looked much quicker to the rucks (no lock at 6, no Robshaw who's quite slow around the park) with Wilson/Shields and Underhill. We defended our own ball as well as I've seen for years. The clearing and getting over the ball was very impressive. We also attacked the breakdown well, we seemed to get more turnovers than I remember for a long time with numerous threats on the park.

You can tell this is something Eddie has worked on and we seem to more balanced in the pack.

As the main issue for the breakdown for me in the last 18 months or so bar the summer onwards was in attack we seemed to use set plays for a couple of breakdowns run out of ideas players played off the hoof and got isolated and picked off. It seems to me that's stopped happening. Players have an idea of what to do with slow ball bar care against new zealand! Support then follows quickly. I think we're saying the same thing a little?

Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

yappysnap wrote:Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

He isn't Welsh, although he played for them at U20. I suspect that he is no longer eligible unless he has been tied to them through the U20 games as he is obviously not tied to them through a senior cap and does not live there anymore.

See Underhill and Moriaty

I thought moving Underhill to 6 was the answer, erm no sorry I thought Jack Willis was the future England 6, actually no I thought moving Curry to 6 was the answer, erm no sorry I thought Ben Earl was the future England 6, erm no sorry I thought Ted Hill is the new messiah at 6...
Oh im lost...

When they're playing better than Mark Wilson they can have the spot.

The spot that Wilson hasn't yet got...keep having to remind you!

AH he will don't worry...

Hey I don't worry mate. If he gets ithe'll have swotted away some great players and that's brill for England.

Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes as our starting backrow

To be fair Yappy, if all are fit and firing, we have seen worse.

lostinwales wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

He isn't Welsh, although he played for them at U20. I suspect that he is no longer eligible unless he has been tied to them through the U20 games as he is obviously not tied to them through a senior cap and does not live there anymore.

See Underhill and Moriaty

I've been reading up on this. The rules for international qualification are so convoluted they can't be fit for purpose.

Your first and second team are your "capture" teams.

If one of your "capture" teams plays against another nation's "capture" team, then every player eligible for your nation playing in that game is captured for that nation.

So, Wales Under-20s were always the capture team. So playing for them against France Under-20s should capture all Welsh players to Wales.

However, Dombrandt didn't qualify for Wales when he played for the Under-20s, so he wouldn't have been captured, even if it was deemed a capture fixture. He could play for Wales U20 in the Six Nations as a student because of Six Nations rules. He couldn't play for Wales U20 in the JWC that year because of the more stringent World Rugby rules.

For further complications, Wales U20 is no longer a capture team, since the revival of Wales A team in 2016. Since its revival in 2016, it has played 0 fixtures.

A complete and utter farce, although it does mean Croydon-born-and-raised Dombrandt is eligible for England only. Which is probably the correct outcome.

It would be much better if
Either: World Rugby limited capture matches to only fixtures that counted to the senior World Rankings (i.e. tests), the Junior World Cup and Junior World Trophy (i.e. World Rugby events at Under-20 level) and World Rugby sevens competitions (if they insist on that capture as they currently do). Anything else is just a friendly and doesn't capture
Or: Capture everything. If you're putting the badge on your chest, it's a capture game.

I prefer the first method personally, but either would be better because it's clear. Everyone would know where they stand.

robbo277 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

He isn't Welsh, although he played for them at U20. I suspect that he is no longer eligible unless he has been tied to them through the U20 games as he is obviously not tied to them through a senior cap and does not live there anymore.

See Underhill and Moriaty

I've been reading up on this. The rules for international qualification are so convoluted they can't be fit for purpose.

Your first and second team are your "capture" teams.

If one of your "capture" teams plays against another nation's "capture" team, then every player eligible for your nation playing in that game is captured for that nation.

So, Wales Under-20s were always the capture team. So playing for them against France Under-20s should capture all Welsh players to Wales.

However, Dombrandt didn't qualify for Wales when he played for the Under-20s, so he wouldn't have been captured, even if it was deemed a capture fixture. He could play for Wales U20 in the Six Nations as a student because of Six Nations rules. He couldn't play for Wales U20 in the JWC that year because of the more stringent World Rugby rules.

For further complications, Wales U20 is no longer a capture team, since the revival of Wales A team in 2016. Since its revival in 2016, it has played 0 fixtures.

A complete and utter farce, although it does mean Croydon-born-and-raised Dombrandt is eligible for England only. Which is probably the correct outcome.

It would be much better if
Either: World Rugby limited capture matches to only fixtures that counted to the senior World Rankings (i.e. tests), the Junior World Cup and Junior World Trophy (i.e. World Rugby events at Under-20 level) and World Rugby sevens competitions (if they insist on that capture as they currently do). Anything else is just a friendly and doesn't capture
Or: Capture everything. If you're putting the badge on your chest, it's a capture game.

I prefer the first method personally, but either would be better because it's clear. Everyone would know where they stand.

The main thing is to tighten up the qualification rules so that most players cannot pick and choose. I would definitely lose the grand-parentage rule and probably the parentage rule and base qualification purely on birth and long term residence.
1) Country of birth (with exceptions for children of forces, diplomats etc)
2) Residence of say ten years with years under eighteen counting double.

I think you should just have to apply for citizenship of the respective country. If and when its approved then you're eligible.

Pie wrote:I think you should just have to apply for citizenship of the respective country. If and when its approved then you're eligible.

The trouble with that system is allows the farce that applies in athletics where athletes are paid to take UAE citizenship despite having no connection to the place and in some cases never having even visited.

The other problem is that in rugby the countries playing are often not states which issue passports. The case that started this debate was Alex Dombrandt. His case cannot be decided by him applying for either English or Welsh citizenship.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As the main issue for the breakdown for me in the last 18 months or so bar the summer onwards was in attack we seemed to use set plays for a couple of breakdowns run out of ideas players played off the hoof and got isolated and picked off. It seems to me that's stopped happening. Players have an idea of what to do with slow ball bar care against new zealand! Support then follows quickly. I think we're saying the same thing a little?

This. From what I can see, it's been much more down to tactics than personnel.

England's breakdown was working pretty well until Gregor Townsend and his team worked out that the pod system committed the loose forwards after the first couple of phases, which led to the tactic of deliberately conceding the extra yard once the loosies were tied up so that the ball carrier was isolated and the Scotland back row could go for the ball. Everyone else copied it, and England didn't adapt until the summer.

That said, now that Underhill has got his aggression and injury rate under control, I thought he added a lot to the breakdown play - much as Eddie had predicted when he first started.

yappysnap wrote:Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

This kind of thing is something us English excel in...we're always looking for somebody better. Can't say I've seen anything of this lad, is he any good?

Wilson is the best 6 currently available until somebody better comes along or Shields starts performing. Willis is the best of the younger crop, really hope he comes back strong.

Exiledinborders wrote:The main thing is to tighten up the qualification rules so that most players cannot pick and choose. I would definitely lose the grand-parentage rule and probably the parentage rule and base qualification purely on birth and long term residence.
1) Country of birth (with exceptions for children of forces, diplomats etc)
2) Residence of say ten years with years under eighteen counting double.

There are issues around this and it's worth a debate on its own. But without committing to changes of qualification criteria, I think the capture rules need looking at. They're two cheeks of the same arse, but they are slightly different issues requiring slightly different solutions.

It gets really complicated with so man scenarios with designated teams and when it does and doesn't count. You and up in Shingler scenarios where players don't even realise they have committed.as said Dombrandt never qualified for anyone other than England which is fortunate. Another player in the lock or 6 category.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

This kind of thing is something us English excel in...we're always looking for somebody better. Can't say I've seen anything of this lad, is he any good?

Wilson is the best 6 currently available until somebody better comes along or Shields starts performing. Willis is the best of the younger crop, really hope he comes back strong.

He looks okay but is far too early to thinks about international call-ups.

England and NZ/SA should set up regular fixtures between the Saxons / NZ B / SA B teams, designate them to be the teams that tie in players and then cap anyone who ever might be good enough for international level

Wales would be screwed

Exiledinborders wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Lots of social media talk of Alex Dombrandt being a future Eng 6 after his impressive game against Exeter. Could get a cap sooner rather then later to lock him in and stop Wales poaching him.

This kind of thing is something us English excel in...we're always looking for somebody better. Can't say I've seen anything of this lad, is he any good?

Wilson is the best 6 currently available until somebody better comes along or Shields starts performing. Willis is the best of the younger crop, really hope he comes back strong.

He looks okay but is far too early to thinks about international call-ups.

Hes a bigger heavy duty power 6 so very different to Wilson. Tbh I was being a bit sarcastic as the ott hype was all from one game.

To me its between Wilson - the form player and holding the shirt and then Robshaw - the experienced Int and leader.

Just a reminder Wilson hasn't been playing in the shirt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just a reminder Wilson hasn't been playing in the shirt.

But I believe he did finish the game playing there after Hughes came on, so technically the incumbent.

Wilson is obviously the likely selection if he doesn't need to fill in elsewhere. When's Willis due back?

Bangs head against wall. It's not going to be Wilson!

That wall must be taking some punishment, how's your head feeling.

I've felt better. Hate having 2 months before being right.

Please pick Robshaw at 7 again. Please...

From an outside perspective, based on he Ebglish players I'd least like face, Underhill is up there at the top of the list. Does he fit Eddie Jones' gameplan better than every other option? Doesn't matter, he's top drawer.

As someone alluded to above, England seem to go through phases of 'the next best thing'. It happened on the wings for years, just picking someone for a series and then casting them away when they don't live up to the hype. The Premiership is obviously a tough breeding ground, but it's not international rugby, and doesn't always work that picking the best GP player will give you the best England player.

If I were England the focus would surely be on finding a #8 they're happy to play knockout rugby with. Who isn't Viliam Vunipola. You'd be better off picking Tuilagi in the centres and building around him as a key carrier - both massively injury prone, but like Underhill above, no team will enjoy facing Tuilagi. Even the New Zealand, irrespective of what the Kiwis on here say.

Miaow

You've just said there what I alluded to above. So many fans seem to be looking for the NEXT star incumbent of a position before the previous one just ahead of him has even played 10 games or so...let alone become a big experienced international player.

Wilson and Shields have covered the 6 position this summer with Wilson ALSO covering 8 due to a lack of other options.
They have played very well and its only right if they are continuing to perform for club (as Mark Wilson will be) that they are given another shot for England.

However already, we're talking about Willis (who is a cracking prospect), Ted Hill who's played 2/3 games for Worcester and is 19yo or something, and Dombrandt who ive never heard of.

Mercer was Captain of the England under 20's, is a cracking prospect and even he hasn't even made the England starters yet.

We always seem to be looking over the horizon for the next.

We know Underhill is the "potentially" long term future at 7 (though he will have one or two challenging him), whilst I don't forsee Wilson OR Shields being long term options. However they are type that will give Underhill good balance to continue to establish his game on the international stage.

Once he is established, after the world cup, we can look to bring in one of the young powerhouse 6's in a settled back row.
Hopefully Mercer will have made that 8 spot his own, or Billy V will not be on the physio table anymore.
Or Callum Chick has finally shown how good he is...

Too many good players. It's generally only an issue with fans though. Instances where players are played for a.couple of games as an actual choice rather than covering injuries etc is relatively rare. You do sometimes need to actually pick players for squads and games though to actually see if they sink or swim. And in the vast majority of cases players need a few games to bed in.

I agree it is the fans who go on like that but its a bit frustrating.

Injuries to players don't help either, ill admit.

The pack is certainly starting to take shape though, which is good sign less than one year out from the WC. After the poor performances in the 6N, things are a little more settled. All fit and able (like this will ever happen):

1. Vunipola (Moon/Genge)
2. George (Hartley)
3. Sinkler (Williams)
4. Itoje (Launchbury)
5. Lawes (Kruis)
6. Wilson (Shields)
7. Underhill (Curry)
8. Vunipola (Hughes)

Itoje out 'for a number of weeks'. Knee injury sustained on England duty

Why would you drop the player of the ai s from the 2 positions he excelled at in 7 and 8 though Sgt? Kind of proved my point from above though in that there's difference in what fans would prefer from a pack etc and what we've seen Jones decide.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would you drop the player of the ai s from the 2 positions he excelled at in 7 and 8 though Sgt? Kind of proved my point from above though in that there's  difference in what fans would prefer from a pack etc and what we've seen Jones decide.

Because he was player of the AI's not playing in his best position....so imagine him playing in his best position....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would you drop the player of the ai s from the 2 positions he excelled at in 7 and 8 though Sgt? Kind of proved my point from above though in that there's  difference in what fans would prefer from a pack etc and what we've seen Jones decide.

Because he was player of the AI's not playing in his best position....so imagine him playing in his best position....

Exactly GF. Wilson is a 6 primarily 7.5, I thought you watched Falcons? His versatility is rather handy though.

Hmm. Would mean dropping a better player though. In all seriousness anyone picking him ignored him playing at 7. And even his most ardent fan would acknowledge most of the pack would have been ignored for play of the ai s as they didn't play as much.
I'm just trying.to prepare you guys for when he doesn't make the squad.

But he's not a 7?? he was played there due to his flexibility.

He's a 6 who is good at 8. He proved that against the best in the world. Im really not getting your arguments 7.5?

You obviously just don't like the guy so will argue black is white...like making a point about his game at 7...but ignoring what he does at 6 and 8???