Is New Zealand’s back row their Achilles heal.

First topic message reminder :

I’m starting to think this is the poorest All Blak backrow I can ever remember.Kieran Reid is one of the greats as far as I’m concerned but he looks like he’s running on empty at the moment. Savea is an impact player to me and I can’t even remember who was playing 6 as they were pretty much anonymous. All Blak backrows in times gone by were the most frightening part of their team but now very average,I’m not sure in a world team now who would make it even onto the subs bench. I know Cane will hopefully be back for the World Cup but genuine question to our New Zealand friends who’s waiting in the wings? Where’s the next McCaw, Michael Jones or Kronfield coming from?

Yeah it does alright though I reckon Wales and Scotland have better breakdown specialists than England at the moment.

I find it weird that Hansen has picked Barrett at 10 v Italy. What is he trying to achieve there? Unless Mo'unga is injured why not give him a rare start? I like Mo'unga a lot as a player but I think he may suffer a bit from lack of confidence. Perfect chance to get minutes under the belt for him. Barrett has 71 caps at this stage.

I guess it means Hansen really believes in having Barrett and McKensie as his playmakers for the RWC and really wants it to work but isn't satisfied that it does yet.

If you lose you go back out to make it right. You take your responsibility and correct it.
I assume Hansen is in that mood?

Italy isn't Ireland but still.... 'get out there and get the job done.... you're not above being given an Italian job'.

SecretFly wrote:If you lose you go back out to make it right.  You take your responsibility and correct it.  
I assume Hansen is in that mood?  

Italy isn't Ireland but still.... 'get out there and get the job done.... you're not above being given an Italian job'.

Yeah except he has dropped almost everyone else.

Maybe he blames Barrett mostest?

Or he's the AB 'undroppable' that needs to get his confidence back pronto..in Hansen's mind

Just saw this in the NZ Herald. They are as confused, real head scratcher. Has Hansen lost the plot?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12164665

In terms of poachers you're right that England lag behind the others currently. Feel it's been the direction of our attack that has led to confusion and clear plan if our 1st or 2nd wave attacks fail to gain ground. Leads to players being isolated and lack of clear outs. Obviously not something nz normally struggle with despite shipping more tries than scoring in the last couple.

John Mitchell isn't buying Pichot's nonsense:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/108796255/john-mitchell-im-emotively-connected-to-england

Pot Hale wrote:

Biltong wrote:Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.
19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

Not quite the full picture, Biltong.  For context, I've added in some details on their career, teams, departures and where they went first and subsequently.
 
Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulon. 15 Aus caps, played for the Reds before leaving for Toulon for a year because he felt he was shut out of Australia’s back row for the previous two years by David Pocock, Michael Hooper and latterly Sean McMahon. "“Whilst we are disappointed to see him go, there are limitations to what we are currently able to do if players garner overseas interest and aren’t in the top band of Wallabies” said Wallbies Gen Mgr.    Now playing for Lyon since 2017. Age 26
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster - surplus to Cheika's requirements and at 33 took a two-year contract offer in 2017. Available for RWC? He's 34
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster - left for Japan then returned to Sharks and then went injured to Ulster.  He's played 6 games in two seasons.  Contract finished in May next year. He's 27.  Crocked.
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath.  Left for England in 2011.  Age 33.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now. Left for France, then went to Japan.  Age 32
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse - He left for Japan, he came back, he was leaving, he was staying, he left.  He's 35.
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon - he left for Japan, he came back, he left again for France.  He's 34
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais - 43 Bok caps - left for Stade in 2015 - he's 34.
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle - left for France in 2016 - Age 31
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps - Left Stormers for England - Age 27
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens - left Stormers for England - Age 30
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale - left Blue Bulls for Saracens, returned to Bulls/Blue Bulls, left again for Stade Francais, joined Sale last year - Age 28
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton - left for Japan then switched to Saints this season.  Age 32
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester - left for Japan then joined Gloucester.  Age 29
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol.  Left Blues for Bristol - Age 27
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol - oh come on - He's 92 or something.  Left in 2010 for Toulon, then Japan, then Stade, Lyon, Wasps, Japan, Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets - was playing for Cheetahs who were axed from SR and joined PRO14 last year.  Transferred to Scarlets this season.
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster - left Blue Bulls for London Irish last year.  On a 1 year contract with Munster - Available from May next year. Age 27
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster - was playing for Pumas in Currie Cup and Southern Kings in 2016/17 before they were axed from SR. Capped for South Africa A. Munster contract until May 2020 when he'll be 29.

You know all thats well and good pot but its still resources that at one time or another just might be helpful if we needed them. You seem to think that finding a single simple reason a player left combined with perhaps his age means oh, SH dont need or want him anymore, forever, so theres no issue is there when forty fifty, one hundred, five hundred players leave forever.

Well, there is. No point trying to gloss over whats obvious.

Look at robshaw and SOB, theyre both ancient and if they had have been SH players they would have moved north to finish their careers making money. But theyre not. They sit still and get paid their comfy nh salary and are still abailable for their country, robshaw hardly picked these days and SOB has several players breathing diwn his neck. Thats the real difference. You keep yours for when you need them and bring in ours as well.

Totally different ballgame. We certainly could have done with the four 6’s biltong brought up at some point in the last year. All four were rated ahead of Shields and probably still are, and shields is first pick for England. But for our players its all or nothing, yet we hear irish fans going on about how deep their loosies are. Well, we woukd say the same if they had nowhere else to go.

Nowhere else to go? Loads of places to go, they just dont want to.

Collapse2005 wrote:Nowhere else to go? Loads of places to go, they just dont want to.

Really? Where can they go to get triple, four, five times in some cases ten times their current salary, as ours do?

They can get much bigger salaries in France. Zebo, Ryan, Jackson etc.

Collapse2005 wrote:They can get much bigger salaries in France. Zebo, Ryan, Jackson etc.

If that is the case let the French clubs known they are available, perhaps we can get a few back in SA then

Collapse2005 wrote:I find it weird that Hansen has picked Barrett at 10 v Italy. What is he trying to achieve there? Unless Mo'unga is injured why not give him a rare start? I like Mo'unga a lot as a player but I think he may suffer a bit from lack of confidence. Perfect chance to get minutes under the belt for him. Barrett has 71 caps at this stage.

I guess it means Hansen really believes in having Barrett and McKensie as his playmakers for the RWC and really wants it to work but isn't satisfied that it does yet.

First time Ive agreed with ya. Ridiculous decjsion not to start Mo’unga. And even worse he puts his multi time failure brother on ...the flippin wing! Great. We really do need a failed, young fullback and centre at 6’5’ on the flippin wing. Wed get more out of putting Mo’unga at prop. At least hed be on the field, and probably do better than jordie, who clearly needs more time at lower level..

Think hansens losing it.

Yep its a wierd one. Whats he up to.

God, Mitchell is really getting dug into training in that pic! "Now, one and two equals?............ Go on, at least give a guess."

SecretFly wrote:God, Mitchell is really getting dug into training in that pic!  "Now, one and two equals?............  Go on, at least give a guess."

I thought Mitchell was struggling to play rock, paper, scissors with himself. “Rock, paper, scissors...show.... damn it!”

Taylorman wrote:...robshaw hardly picked these days.

Actually, he's just injured. When available, he's generally been selected by Jones. He's 32, which means this is his probably his last chance of a World Cup, but he's still younger than Kieran Read. Haskell is out of favour, and a year older than Robshaw, but still elected to stay in England to try and make his case for an England place.

If you aren't in the England team, and picking up match fees, then an offer from France is going to be more attractive than anything most Premiership or Pro14 teams can put together. Consequently, England does lose players, albeit on a much smaller scale to the Southern Hemisphere. The Armitage brothers were a high profile example a few years ago, what with Steffon winning European Player of the Year, and playing in a weak position for England. More recently, Chris Ashton and David Strettle went to France but both came back to the Premiership. The player most England supporters would like to have back is probably Carl Fearns. Given the choice between having access to Fearns or Brad Shields, I can't think many English fans would plump for Shields.

Interestingly, while the money is better in France, the playing environment is not. When Stuart Hogg announced he was leaving Glasgow, he chose to go to a Premiership club rather than France, although offers from French clubs must have been bigger. Johnny Sexton never really found his feet in France. A big salary isn't much use if your career gets shortened through the wear-and-tear of a long season.

As far as back rows are concerned, I'd just like to get through a couple of seasons without a major injury to one of our best prospects. The names might not be familiar to rugby men in the south, but Tom Rees, James Forrester and Dan Ward-Smith all looked like cementing places in the England team before they had to retire early. Rees, in particular, was even tipped as a future England captain. More recently, we lost Sam Jones the same way, while others like Jack Willis, Jack Clifford and Billy Vunipola have lost large chunks to injury. We look at the Welsh and Irish back row resources with some envy.

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Biltong wrote:Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.
19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

Not quite the full picture, Biltong.  For context, I've added in some details on their career, teams, departures and where they went first and subsequently.
 
Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulon. 15 Aus caps, played for the Reds before leaving for Toulon for a year because he felt he was shut out of Australia’s back row for the previous two years by David Pocock, Michael Hooper and latterly Sean McMahon. "“Whilst we are disappointed to see him go, there are limitations to what we are currently able to do if players garner overseas interest and aren’t in the top band of Wallabies” said Wallbies Gen Mgr.    Now playing for Lyon since 2017. Age 26
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster - surplus to Cheika's requirements and at 33 took a two-year contract offer in 2017. Available for RWC? He's 34
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster - left for Japan then returned to Sharks and then went injured to Ulster.  He's played 6 games in two seasons.  Contract finished in May next year. He's 27.  Crocked.
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath.  Left for England in 2011.  Age 33.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now. Left for France, then went to Japan.  Age 32
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse - He left for Japan, he came back, he was leaving, he was staying, he left.  He's 35.
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon - he left for Japan, he came back, he left again for France.  He's 34
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais - 43 Bok caps - left for Stade in 2015 - he's 34.
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle - left for France in 2016 - Age 31
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps - Left Stormers for England - Age 27
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens - left Stormers for England - Age 30
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale - left Blue Bulls for Saracens, returned to Bulls/Blue Bulls, left again for Stade Francais, joined Sale last year - Age 28
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton - left for Japan then switched to Saints this season.  Age 32
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester - left for Japan then joined Gloucester.  Age 29
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol.  Left Blues for Bristol - Age 27
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol - oh come on - He's 92 or something.  Left in 2010 for Toulon, then Japan, then Stade, Lyon, Wasps, Japan, Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets - was playing for Cheetahs who were axed from SR and joined PRO14 last year.  Transferred to Scarlets this season.
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster - left Blue Bulls for London Irish last year.  On a 1 year contract with Munster - Available from May next year. Age 27
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster - was playing for Pumas in Currie Cup and Southern Kings in 2016/17 before they were axed from SR. Capped for South Africa A. Munster contract until May 2020 when he'll be 29.

You know all thats well and good pot but its still resources that at one time or another just might be helpful if we needed them. You seem to think that finding a single simple reason a player left combined with perhaps his age means oh, SH dont need or want him anymore, forever, so theres no issue is there when forty fifty, one hundred, five hundred players leave forever.

Well, there is. No point trying to gloss over whats obvious.

Look at robshaw and SOB, theyre both ancient and if they had have been SH players they would have moved north to finish their careers making money. But theyre not. They sit still and get paid their comfy nh salary and are still abailable for their country, robshaw hardly picked these days and SOB has several players breathing diwn his neck. Thats the real difference. You keep yours for when you need them and bring in ours as well.

Totally different ballgame. We certainly could have done with the four 6’s biltong brought up at some point in the last year. All four were rated ahead of Shields and probably still are, and shields is first pick for England. But for our players its all or nothing, yet we hear irish fans going on about how deep their loosies are. Well, we woukd say the same if they had nowhere else to go.

T-man - I’m not arguing that NZ players leave in large numbers because they weren’t wanted or wanted more money. The players decided their reasons, not me. And context/environment is relevant. The NZRU is the second highest financial turnover in World Rugby, after England. If NZ wanted to keep some or all of the 151 NZ-born players currently in Europe they would have paid some of them more. And still could. I note it is those with PI heritage who tend to move/be picked to play in Europe because of Aus/NZ restrictions.

If Aus can pay Quade Cooper €600k to sit on his behind in a local club whilst letting some of their better players go, that’s their call. It’s different to SA with a combination of low money and quotas prompting a lot of moves in recent times.

You employ “you” and “your” in your arguments as if Europe and Japan were some kind of collective when clearly they’re not. Biltong said all the above players went to Europe, whereas you can see some of them went to Japan. Some of them left and returned to their countries. And some left again. Some came from non-SR teams.

So if I wanted to say SR capped players that initially left for:
Japan - Coetzee, Kaino, Messam, Brussouw, Kriel
France - Gill, Smith, Alberts, Vermuelen, Vito
England - Carr, Rhodes, Ross, Botha, Luatua, Luow
Ireland - Fardy
SA PRO14 - Cassim, Cloete

SOB is a central contract player - and has had a lot of injuries. Earlier in his career, other clubs were trying to nab him, but he negotiated a better salary and stayed. With some players, the IRFU set a limit and if the player got a better offer then he went e.g. Madigan, Ryan, Zebo. Would those players be useful to Ireland in the RWC? Probably. They are 3 of 27 Irish players playing in other Six Nations clubs.

Seems like Neil Francis in the Ie agrees with the original post

When New Zealand won the World Cup in 2011 and again in 2015, they had an interstellar back-row of Richie McCaw, Jerome Kaino and Kieran Read - boundless, redoubtable, inexhaustible and immense. A triumvirate that played in tandem, soaked up huge pressure and dictated the pace of the game. Smart, canny and above the law, pretty much the best there has ever been. When Kaino and McCaw retired, Read should have jumped on the funeral pyre - better than losing his soul playing alongside the likes of Liam Squire and Ardie Savea.

It's a sign of the dearth of quality in their back-row that Scott Barrett looked the best player in the New Zealand back-row last Saturday. A decent second-row but Barrett is no Victor Matfield. Another worrying sign for the All Blacks is that they had to take Matt Todd on tour - a 30-year-old journeyman back-rower who had been in engaged in rigours of playing for the Panasonic Wild Knights in Japan.

When Ardie Savea broke free from a turnover in the second half and chipped the ball ahead which was touched down over the goal line by Rob Kearney, I thought is this what All Black back-row play is reduced to?

Strong memories of Zinzan Brooke, Mike Brewer and Josh Kronfeld in 1995 and Wayne Shelford, Alan Whetton and Michael Jones in 1987. The All Blacks are going to struggle for a back-row that can dominate at ruck time and that means any one of five teams, not just us, can knock them off.

They had a nightclub bouncer at loosehead who had to shed 40 kilos just to be able to play club rugby - he was ruthlessly exposed last Saturday. Karl Tu'inukuafe never touched the ball in his 50 minutes on the park - a Rouxesque type performance. Tadhg Furlong, his opposite number, carried 12 times and passed six times.

New Zealand's centre pairing were industrious and full of enthusiasm but have no cutting edge and they are light years away from the skill and quality of Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith. New Zealand's bench had all the oomph of an Oompa Loompa. Even Beauden Barrett is human off the back foot.

On a side note new zealand will be wearing rainbow laces in support of Gareth Thomas. Nice touch.

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Biltong wrote:Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.
19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

Not quite the full picture, Biltong.  For context, I've added in some details on their career, teams, departures and where they went first and subsequently.
 
Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulon. 15 Aus caps, played for the Reds before leaving for Toulon for a year because he felt he was shut out of Australia’s back row for the previous two years by David Pocock, Michael Hooper and latterly Sean McMahon. "“Whilst we are disappointed to see him go, there are limitations to what we are currently able to do if players garner overseas interest and aren’t in the top band of Wallabies” said Wallbies Gen Mgr.    Now playing for Lyon since 2017. Age 26
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster - surplus to Cheika's requirements and at 33 took a two-year contract offer in 2017. Available for RWC? He's 34
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster - left for Japan then returned to Sharks and then went injured to Ulster.  He's played 6 games in two seasons.  Contract finished in May next year. He's 27.  Crocked.
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath.  Left for England in 2011.  Age 33.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now. Left for France, then went to Japan.  Age 32
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse - He left for Japan, he came back, he was leaving, he was staying, he left.  He's 35.
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon - he left for Japan, he came back, he left again for France.  He's 34
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais - 43 Bok caps - left for Stade in 2015 - he's 34.
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle - left for France in 2016 - Age 31
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps - Left Stormers for England - Age 27
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens - left Stormers for England - Age 30
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale - left Blue Bulls for Saracens, returned to Bulls/Blue Bulls, left again for Stade Francais, joined Sale last year - Age 28
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton - left for Japan then switched to Saints this season.  Age 32
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester - left for Japan then joined Gloucester.  Age 29
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol.  Left Blues for Bristol - Age 27
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol - oh come on - He's 92 or something.  Left in 2010 for Toulon, then Japan, then Stade, Lyon, Wasps, Japan, Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets - was playing for Cheetahs who were axed from SR and joined PRO14 last year.  Transferred to Scarlets this season.
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster - left Blue Bulls for London Irish last year.  On a 1 year contract with Munster - Available from May next year. Age 27
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster - was playing for Pumas in Currie Cup and Southern Kings in 2016/17 before they were axed from SR. Capped for South Africa A. Munster contract until May 2020 when he'll be 29.

You know all thats well and good pot but its still resources that at one time or another just might be helpful if we needed them. You seem to think that finding a single simple reason a player left combined with perhaps his age means oh, SH dont need or want him anymore, forever, so theres no issue is there when forty fifty, one hundred, five hundred players leave forever.

Well, there is. No point trying to gloss over whats obvious.

Look at robshaw and SOB, theyre both ancient and if they had have been SH players they would have moved north to finish their careers making money. But theyre not. They sit still and get paid their comfy nh salary and are still abailable for their country, robshaw hardly picked these days and SOB has several players breathing diwn his neck. Thats the real difference. You keep yours for when you need them and bring in ours as well.

Totally different ballgame. We certainly could have done with the four 6’s biltong brought up at some point in the last year. All four were rated ahead of Shields and probably still are, and shields is first pick for England. But for our players its all or nothing, yet we hear irish fans going on about how deep their loosies are. Well, we woukd say the same if they had nowhere else to go.

T-man - I’m not arguing that NZ players leave in large numbers because they weren’t wanted or wanted more money. The players decided their reasons, not me. And context/environment is relevant.  The NZRU is the second highest financial turnover in World Rugby, after England.     If NZ wanted to keep some or all of the 151 NZ-born players currently in Europe they would have paid some of them more. And still could.  I note it is those with PI heritage who tend to move/be picked to play in Europe because of Aus/NZ restrictions.  

If Aus can pay Quade Cooper €600k to sit on his behind in a local club whilst letting some of their better players go, that’s their call.  It’s different to SA with a combination of low money and quotas prompting a lot of moves in recent times.  

You employ “you” and “your” in your arguments as if Europe and Japan were some kind of collective when clearly they’re not.   Biltong said all the above players went to Europe, whereas you can see some of them went to Japan. Some of them left and returned to their countries. And some left again.   Some came from non-SR teams.  

So if I wanted to say SR capped players that initially left for:
Japan - Coetzee, Kaino, Messam, Brussouw, Kriel
France - Gill, Smith, Alberts, Vermuelen, Vito
England - Carr, Rhodes, Ross, Botha, Luatua, Luow
Ireland - Fardy
SA PRO14 - Cassim, Cloete

SOB is a central contract player - and has had a lot of injuries.  Earlier in his career, other clubs were trying to nab him, but he negotiated a better salary and stayed.  With some players, the IRFU set a limit and if the player got a better offer then he went e.g. Madigan, Ryan, Zebo.  Would those players be useful to Ireland in the RWC?  Probably. They are 3 of 27 Irish players playing in other Six Nations clubs.  

Hi PH, the list came form the top14, Aviva Premiership and Pro14. It is where they are currently contracted. The net effect though is not where hey went or where they are now playing, but more importantly they aren't playing in SA domestic comp.

No 7&1/2 wrote:On a side note new zealand will be wearing rainbow laces in support of Gareth Thomas. Nice touch.

It is nice but to be honest I prefer the IRFUs policy of never supporting any causes nor political messages etc. No poppies etc. Although if homophobia were a big issue in rugby Id be happy for them to make an exception.

Part of the reason I believe that is because the Irish side is made up of people with very different political, religious, views. Best to stick to sport.

No 7&1/2 wrote:On a side note new zealand will be wearing rainbow laces in support of Gareth Thomas. Nice touch.

Thomas appreciates the support

Ireland beat NZ last week deservedly so,BUT NZ are still the worlds number one side.
Whats up with NZ back row and generally ,wheres the new 7?etc,Read has been
carrying injuries all year.THAT Journeyman Matt Todd is THE best 7 in NZ he may
not be as good as Tremain,Jones,or McCaw ,BUT is certainly on a par with Kronfeld.
Loyalty?the inference was he`d be Canes replacement,NO he gets 27 minutes
22 of which probably won the games for his side.The third IF he`d been given
gametime MIGHT have won the game for his side.He should at least have been
given a start v Italy.He NEVER has a bad game at ANY level.
Ireland MAY be the best team in the world at the moment,like England in 2016
BUT NZ may have lost twice this year that's par for them in 15 match years.
Just as easily they could have and maybe should have won all four,armchair
viewers are not privy.To Hansens overall lstrategy he hasn`t replaced Kaino

at 6 and his best midfield is a bit of a mix up.BOTH sides defences had the upper hand

10wins on the trot at home?whats the score at Eden Park?

stevetynant wrote:Seems like Neil Francis in the Ie agrees with the original post

When New Zealand won the World Cup in 2011 and again in 2015, they had an interstellar back-row of Richie McCaw, Jerome Kaino and Kieran Read - boundless, redoubtable, inexhaustible and immense. A triumvirate that played in tandem, soaked up huge pressure and dictated the pace of the game. Smart, canny and above the law, pretty much the best there has ever been. When Kaino and McCaw retired, Read should have jumped on the funeral pyre - better than losing his soul playing alongside the likes of Liam Squire and Ardie Savea.

It's a sign of the dearth of quality in their back-row that Scott Barrett looked the best player in the New Zealand back-row last Saturday. A decent second-row but Barrett is no Victor Matfield. Another worrying sign for the All Blacks is that they had to take Matt Todd on tour - a 30-year-old journeyman back-rower who had been in engaged in rigours of playing for the Panasonic Wild Knights in Japan.

When Ardie Savea broke free from a turnover in the second half and chipped the ball ahead which was touched down over the goal line by Rob Kearney, I thought is this what All Black back-row play is reduced to?

Strong memories of Zinzan Brooke, Mike Brewer and Josh Kronfeld in 1995 and Wayne Shelford, Alan Whetton and Michael Jones in 1987. The All Blacks are going to struggle for a back-row that can dominate at ruck time and that means any one of five teams, not just us, can knock them off.

They had a nightclub bouncer at loosehead who had to shed 40 kilos just to be able to play club rugby - he was ruthlessly exposed last Saturday. Karl Tu'inukuafe never touched the ball in his 50 minutes on the park - a Rouxesque type performance. Tadhg Furlong, his opposite number, carried 12 times and passed six times.

New Zealand's centre pairing were industrious and full of enthusiasm but have no cutting edge and they are light years away from the skill and quality of Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith. New Zealand's bench had all the oomph of an Oompa Loompa. Even Beauden Barrett is human off the back foot.

Far too simple an analysis in terms of the relationship between those players and the current side. In the 2011-2015 period the ABs lost five and drew two. One to one northern side. Those losses meant two rugby championships were lost in the world cup years, losing two in a row on 2011. They won everything else.

The current side have now lost five and have drawn one, their worst result a drawn lions series. Theyve won all RCs and the other southern tours 3-0, none of the losing matches to ireland, oz or SA costing them titles.

The recent side has also scored at higher points and try differentials.
So the reasons you give are not causing lesser results.

Theyre better explained by improving NH sides due to the continued influx of SH players and coaches to the north, and the subsequent demise of both SA and Oz, partially also for that reason.

In each of this years AIs there was at least on kiwi born player in each side, at least three qualified on residence grounds. The improving NH standards is certainly a direct result of that movement, maybe not all, but certainly a factor.

You mention players like Zinzan Brooke. In his day there was nowhere to go so he bided his time waiting for Shelford to lose favour. Had he been a pro in 1986 he woukd certainly gone north rather than waiting the 87-90 period playing mainly for Auckland. Kaino is still playing, and could easily still make the ABs, but is playing, with Luatua, Shields, Messam etc, luatia certainly one that might have developed late as Zinzan and Kaino did.

Your comment re Karl T is misleading. NZ didnt get the ball whike Ireland hogged it for most of the match. That is not a fair comparison of carries. How can you carry without getting the ball. Furlong was given the ball. Simple.

And, Karl T certainly fought back after Furlongs early dominance to knock Furlong back at keast once near half time as the AB scrum started getting on top, and did via the subs.

So whike I agree those players havent been replaced, they arent reasons the side is performing worse. Fir one, they arent, and secondly, they are stronger in other areas. Smith is a better fullback than he or Dagg was in the 11-15 area. Barrett has made a far greater contribution than Carter did from 11-15 on a per test basis, Carter injured more often than not, though Cruden was an ample replacement. Aaron Smith is a better player than pre 2015, as is Retallick.

The eras are different and a lot has also changed during that time, all things considered, the ABs are doing ok. Lots of room for improvement, and plenty of time to do it in.

I see some of the press still getting into the ABs after putting the biggest margin on Italy since the AB 100 pointer on them in 1999, this time with a largely b-ish side.

If its that easy, why didnt others knock in 60?

Anyway, done and dusted. A B- year for AB standards, timed nicely for the world cup three-peat. Surf and sun for a couple of months then start working on the Japan defence.

Well Ireland score 57 points v Italy. Not that different.

Collapse2005 wrote:Well Ireland score 57 points v Italy. Not that different.

Did they get told they were poor doing it?

Taylorman wrote:I see some of the press still getting into the ABs after putting the biggest margin on Italy since the AB 100 pointer on them in 1999, this time with a largely b-ish side.

If its that easy, why didnt others knock in 60?

Anyway, done and dusted. A B- year for AB standards, timed nicely for the world cup three-peat. Surf and sun for a couple of months then start working on the Japan defence.

Didn’t look like a B team. If you check the 6N results in recent years you’ll see Italy being destroyed more often than not. Wales (3rd best in the world) beat them convincingly again last year, a lesser score but more personnel changes.

Taylor, my advice - don't listen to the press.

They is trying to get under the skin of the Mighty ABs. Youse are the best in the World, and don't you ever forget that.

SecretFly wrote:Taylor, my advice - don't listen to the press.

They is trying to get under the skin of the Mighty ABs.  Youse are the best in the World, and don't you ever forget that.

Yeah, and don't listen to Guns either, Taylor. He's like a Jack Russell attached to ankle bone....

OIt’s interesting that Taylor mentioned the birthplace of a number of players with Southern Hemisphere backgrounds. I bet he can’t name the few in the ABs squad who are not New Zealand born

Taylorman wrote:...NZ didnt get the ball while Ireland hogged it for most of the match...

I notice that word has creeped into your posts. I think it shows that you have finally caught up with what Secret and other Irish fans were trying to tell you about the way Ireland play.

Prior to this series, when you heard about Ireland's possession stats, they didn't worry you, because you assumed they were the result of a team boshing it up for multiple phases without going anywhere, and then kicking it away when they run out of ideas. By contrast, New Zealand have been supreme counter attackers, and often have a low possession count, because they can score quickly.

Now, when you talk about hogging, it looks like you have realised that starving the opposition of good possession is central to Ireland's strategy. They don't bosh it up mindlessly, and kick it away when nothing else works.

Mike Tindall annoyed a few Irish fans when he said the Ireland gameplan is too limited to win a World Cup. However, he had to concede that, even when the opposition know what is coming, it is very hard to counter if Ireland execute to a high standard, which is exactly what they have been doing.

Teams playing Ireland have tended to assume they won't be able to maintain the intensity throughout the game, so chances will come. When they don't, however, it causes frustration, and an outbreak of "F*** it, I'll do it myself" syndrome. There were signs of that when Savea won a turnover around the 60 minute mark but kicked it ahead, allowing Kearney to touch it down easily for a 22 dropout.

The key for any team playing Ireland is to have a plan for what to do when they are executing so well. I suspect New Zealand tried one version in Dublin - because they certainly knew what was coming - but found it didn't work. The question is whether the plan was good but just foiled by uncharacteristic errors. Alternatively, perhaps the plan put New Zealand under too much pressure, so that errors were a natural consequence. It'll be fascinating to see what answers the All Blacks brains trust comes up with for next year.

I suppose most of us have seen Squidge already but, if you haven't...

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:...NZ didnt get the ball while Ireland hogged it for most of the match...

I notice that word has creeped into your posts. I think it shows that you have finally caught up with what Secret and other Irish fans were trying to tell you about the way Ireland play.

Prior to this series, when you heard about Ireland's possession stats, they didn't worry you, because you assumed they were the result of a team boshing it up for multiple phases without going anywhere, and then kicking it away when they run out of ideas. By contrast, New Zealand have been supreme counter attackers, and often have a low possession count, because they can score quickly.

Now, when you talk about hogging, it looks like you have realised that starving the opposition of good possession is central to Ireland's strategy. They don't bosh it up mindlessly, and kick it away when nothing else works.

Mike Tindall annoyed a few Irish fans when he said the Ireland gameplan is too limited to win a World Cup. However, he had to concede that, even when the opposition know what is coming, it is very hard to counter if Ireland execute to a high standard, which is exactly what they have been doing.

Teams playing Ireland have tended to assume they won't be able to maintain the intensity throughout the game, so chances will come. When they don't, however, it causes frustration, and an outbreak of "F*** it, I'll do it myself" syndrome. There were signs of that when Savea won a turnover around the 60 minute mark but kicked it ahead, allowing Kearney to touch it down easily for a 22 dropout.

The key for any team playing Ireland is to have a plan for what to do when they are executing so well. I suspect New Zealand tried one version in Dublin - because they certainly knew what was coming - but found it didn't work. The question is whether the plan was good but just foiled by uncharacteristic errors. Alternatively, perhaps the plan put New Zealand under too much pressure, so that errors were a natural consequence. It'll be fascinating to see what answers the All Blacks brains trust comes up with for next year.

I suppose most of us have seen Squidge already but, if you haven't...

Geez think youre making a major mistake if you think thats the case. You sound as though you think Ireland has found some magic formula to suddenly beat allcomers that no one has yet unlocked yet. Yes I do think they still hog it up to get nowhere as but of their gameplan, either getting through, as they do Italy and other lesser sides or not getting through, but using valuable time the likes of the ABs dont get with the ball. Its a badic plan when effective, but one the ABs have NEVER failed to unlock eventually. Here its just a matter of when they do that, during, or after the world cup.

NZ didnt go into these matches trying to unlock either Englands or Irelands methodology, thats one for next year should they need to do that. Hansen was clear this was about seeing what his current side could do, getting the two playmakers out there to create things.

What they found was that didnt happen. England and Ireland both fronted with gameplans specifically designed to beat the ABs, regardless of how pretty it looked.

How does one unlock the Irish gameplan? Two ways, one, by taking Ireland on at their same game, picking a side that doesnt try to run at every opportunity but rather smashes Ireland up the middle and cuts out the 50/50 plays. NZ did exactly that in Dublin after the Chicago match. They certainly didnt do that here. They had no point to prove in this match.

The other way is to unlock the Irish defence by doing their homework on it and getting the points on the board.

One thing Ill put to you is were Ireland to get 15 or so down with 15 to play they wont have the ability to score quick tries late in the piece. They havent had to come from behind much amd under pressure will find they now have to do something theyve not had to yet, score tries, quickly.

You talk as though the ABs have no answers. They do, and will. Its why theyre at the top. Schmidt will not be so naive to think hes seen the best of the ABs this tour. But Im pretty sure weve seen near the best of the Irish. ...mind you, not so sure anout England though. I think theyll take the 6 N back of Ireland. Scotland amd Wales at home look ominous for Ireland. Both have excellent home records last two years.

Until I pointed it out to you Tman you hadnt a clue that Ireland played a posession based gameplan. Your knowledge of Irish rugby is so limited. It couldnt be any more obvious from your posts.

Ummm, I think we all knew ‘Ireland play a hold the ball do nothing with it except box kick’ game plan.

ebop wrote:Ummm, I think we all knew ‘Ireland play a hold the ball do nothing with it except box kick’ game plan.

The ABs kick approx the same percentage of their posession as Ireland. However, the ABs tent to kick to touch more whereas Ireland use contestable kicks more.

Not sure you can really claim NZ did more with their posession than Ireland

Taylorman wrote:...You sound as though you think Ireland has found some magic formula to suddenly beat allcomers that no one has yet unlocked yet..

I don't think anything of the sort. All I pointed out is that you now appear to understand Ireland's game plan, whereas, from what you wrote before the game, it was evident you didn't.

Taylorman wrote:One thing Ill put to you is were Ireland to get 15 or so down with 15 to play they wont have the ability to score quick tries late in the piece. They havent had to come from behind much amd under pressure will find they now have to do something theyve not had to yet, score tries, quickly.

Agreed. In fact, I'd go futher, and say that Ireland might struggle if they went 15 down against New Zealand at any point in the game. I'm not confident they would have the same trouble getting back into a game against England, however.

You also say above that Ireland designed a gameplan specifically to beat the All Blacks. That's not true, since it's how they have played against everyone, which is what the Irish fans were trying to tell you before the match.

Yeah rugby fan totally agreed on your last point. Irelands basic game plan wasnt designed for the ABs it was designed quite some time ago (evolved over 3 years) probably with the RWC in mind as it works well in tight games and relies on having a big squad involved. That said Schmidt always has a few tricks for each opponent.

Ireland are at the stage too where they can afford to do feints.  I'd say Schmidt is wily enough to leave some gaping weaknesses open for 6N opponents to ponder over for the next few months.  I know even I always fall for his 'too narrow' attack strategies close to the opposition tryline.  And then in an instant comes some long sharp and fast throws that catch me out.
I think Joe likes the 'dull' image Ireland continue to have despite a pretty rich ability to score tries using players from all kinds of positions.  Yet our dull reputation stays intact.  That's quite astute coaching.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:...You sound as though you think Ireland has found some magic formula to suddenly beat allcomers that no one has yet unlocked yet..

I don't think anything of the sort. All I pointed out is that you now appear to understand Ireland's game plan, whereas, from what you wrote before the game, it was evident you didn't.

Taylorman wrote:One thing Ill put to you is were Ireland to get 15 or so down with 15 to play they wont have the ability to score quick tries late in the piece. They havent had to come from behind much amd under pressure will find they now have to do something theyve not had to yet, score tries, quickly.

Agreed. In fact, I'd go futher, and say that Ireland might struggle if they went 15 down against New Zealand at any point in the game. I'm not confident they would have the same trouble getting back into a game against England, however.

You also say above that Ireland designed a gameplan specifically to beat the All Blacks. That's not true, since it's how they have played against everyone, which is what the Irish fans were trying to tell you before the match.

If you think that the Irish gameplan is not one that has been designed to beat the best team in rugby then toure deluded. Schmidt and as equally or more so Farrell has certainly built this current plan with the ABs primarily in mind. I dont care how they play against others but the fact is that the ABs can only be beaten by a heavily defensively rush based plan. Said that here when the Lions played and repeat it now.

In the past any side that goes down a simple theiry in this game always gets found out, by not being able to get points when they need them late. Ireland will experience the same at some point.

Why, because the individual components arent as strong across the skill base level as the ABs. You might think they are based on one result but I assure you theyre not.

Ireland has traded flair for security and safety, keeping the enemy close, starving ball. The best international sides usually go one of two ways, towards the safety net, or towards the skillset and use of space. Oz, NZ and France are usually the latter, England, boks and now Ireland the former. France and SA are lagging due to club inpacts, are are oz.

That they play only this style now was a surprise and that surprises me with a coach like Schmidt who was bery much an advocate of the running game. He isnt now and that must irk him and its probably more of a challenge to get the ABs undoing obviously flawed and limited gameplan.

Last year we were told it was all England and Itoje as the AB conquerers. This year its Ireland and Ryan.

My how a year changes. Next year I think it will be back to England.

Through all that, ABs are still no. 1, still world champs. Next year I think youll find out why....sigh... again.

Doubtful.

Taylorman wrote:If you think that the Irish gameplan is not one that has been designed to beat the best team in rugby then toure deluded. Schmidt and as equally or more so Farrell has certainly built this current plan with the ABs primarily in mind. I dont care how they play against others but the fact is that the ABs can only be beaten by a heavily defensively rush based plan. Said that here when the Lions played and repeat it now.

That game the All Blacks saw in Dublin? Almost a carbon copy of what England faced in 2017, when we lost 13-9, ending our record run of consecutive wins. Who was man of the match that day against us? Peter O'Mahony, who was a thorn in our side in exactly the same way he was against New Zealand. He was actually a late replacement for Heaslip, and his performance that day won him a call-up to the Lions.

That was not a gameplan constructed for you at the weekend. It's one Ireland have been working on since the last World Cup. They have been getting better at it, because Schmidt focused on building squad depth, and brought in Andy Farrell. They had actually had a poor Six Nations campaign when we met them in 2017. Hopes were high because Ireland had beaten the All Blacks but they were then ambushed in Scotland and Wales, so the team still hadn't hit its stride.

Schmidt wants Ireland to be able to beat everyone, so of course he needs the to be able to defeat the All Blacks. It was the same at the last World Cup too. However, you don't just design a strategy for the top team, and assume it will deliver results against everyone else. You try and build a team which can take whatever is thrown at them by anybody, because they can impose themselves on any game.

SecretFly wrote:Ireland are at the stage too where they can afford to do feints.  I'd say Schmidt is wily enough to leave some gaping weaknesses open for 6N opponents to ponder over for the next few months.  I know even I always fall for his 'too narrow' attack strategies close to the opposition tryline.  And then in an instant comes some long sharp and fast throws that catch me out.
I think Joe likes the 'dull' image Ireland continue to have despite a pretty rich ability to score tries using players from all kinds of positions.  Yet our dull reputation stays intact.  That's quite astute coaching.

Yes, absolutely it is, and its got Ireland to a point where theyve never been remotely near...ever.

Only problem is, it has a short shelf life.

One example of this. Boks (champs in 2007) in 2009 beat the All Blacks 3 in a row off a similar, narrow game plan. France won one as well- four losses in one year.

Difference with Ireland was that it was to play 'without' the ball. Theyd kick to our speed only wingers Sivivatu and Rocko then catch them with the ball, and wait for the penalty, lineout, or scrum. keep the pressure on the line then kick the inevitable penalties, or close in try.

End of 2009 Henry had a choice we could take them on at their game, kick the ball away and do the same.

Instead he decided NZers wont want us to play that game, so got to work on uncovering the SA strategy.

He dropped the two speedsters and put 3 fullbacks in the back three. With stunning success with France in the AI's end of 2009 the ABs went to work on SA in the RC, who, despite the rule change favouring the tackled player, chose to stay with the same plan. The McCaw try at Eden park in 2010 versus the boks heralded in the new era. Boks kicked deep to Mils on the wing and he ran it straight back into the unexpecting Boks, then fed McCaw for the try.

ABs then went on to win easily vs Oz, SA again, and thrashed Wales and Ireland, before dropping the only game...in Honk Kong, again, the one test they could most afford to lose that year.

Similar happened in 1986, lost to Oz and France, learnt over the summer and thrashed them in the World cup.

Again in 94, lost to France, Boks etc, annhialated everyone bar the final.

Point being there are many precedents where the ABs appear down due to someones masterly cooked up plan, yet always to turn that very same plan around to serve against them.

The narrowness and dependency on so many things going right to execute the Irish gameplan has so many similarities. Once you identify its weak point, and there will be weak points, the whole plan is exposed and even worse, they know nothing else. Plan A works or not. As you've been 'very clear' to point out, there is no plan B. So when theyre exposed, what do they do?

Anyway, just repeating the lessons of others in this game. Perhaps Ireland might be the exception?

Maybe. Maybe theyll just march this dreary style of play into the future...who knows...

People are reading different things into different scenario`s player of the year,team of the year,coach of the year every things turning up green BUT look at the matches played

Ireland- Italy.Argentina,USA,and NZ,4wins out of 4
NZ -Australia,Japan,England,Ireland and Italy,apparently they scraped past Italy
no tv coverage available to me.
NZ v Ireland the AB`s made one forced change for Ireland,they weren't on the same team sheet.Ireland planned to win for bragging rights and won well,BUT NZ made
no attempt.To select a team to win the match,it would have been far different side
don`t say it would win bu t it would have been a different match.

As to Irelands victories Nz Maori would have seen them off bar Ireland and with

no restrictions of style of play may well have won that to.

I don`t see AB`s winning a third on the trot RWC but can`t see Ireland winning it either.

What on earth are you on about

alanmackie6 wrote:People are reading different things into different scenario`s player of the year,team of the year,coach of the year every things turning up green BUT look at the matches played

Ireland- Italy.Argentina,USA,and NZ,4wins out of 4
NZ -Australia,Japan,England,Ireland and Italy,apparently they scraped past Italy
no tv coverage available to me.
NZ v Ireland the AB`s made one forced change for Ireland,they weren't on the same team sheet.Ireland planned to win for bragging rights and won well,BUT NZ made
no attempt.To select a team to win the match,it would have been far different side
don`t say it would win bu t it would have been a different match.

As to Irelands victories Nz Maori would have seen them off bar Ireland and with

no restrictions of style of play may well have won that to.

I don`t see AB`s winning a third on the trot RWC but can`t see Ireland winning it either.

Thats your craziest post yet Alan. Last time the NZ Maori played an Irish side was munster in 2016 and they lost.

The team NZ selected was by and large their best side available.