6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

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6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

England starting XV (485 caps)

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

Finishers (206 caps)

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

Cyril wrote:As it ever was, Guns.

Yes I suppose so. In 2002 both Ireland and England put 50 points on Wales but ever since about 2005 then they have been contenders every year.

Is the 6 Nations going to be a distraction for teams if they focus solely on winning it at the expense of the bigger picture; i.e. the world cup? I would rather England finished mid table with a couple of losses if it means we can cement most of our world cup team together. Bringing Robshaw back into the team and playing Wilson at 8 and Shields at 6 would probably give England their most 'effective' back row in the rain and wind of Dublin, but I don't think it will give us the best chance in the expected heat of Japan later on in the year. Likewise with the 10, 12, 13 combination, where for the 6 Nations we could go with a Ford, Farrell, Teo combination, but I wouldn't want that in the world cup.

One lesson to be learned after England's record equalling run of wins, is that if you become focused on the short term, it comes back to bite you in the long run. I don't think it was coincidence that having gone on that run of wins, we then went into a relatively fallow period.

I would rather England finished mid table with a couple of losses

Heresy - Stone Him, Stone Him!!

TrailApe wrote:

I would rather England finished mid table with a couple of losses

Heresy - Stone Him, Stone Him!!

Are there any women here?

Do we think that the BBC voted for back row of Wilson at 6, Billy at 8 and Underhill at 7 will work? Are Wilson or Underhill able to contribute in the line out? If they can then that should work for 6Ns and RWC.

Nah. Shields!

hugehandoff wrote:Do we think that the BBC voted for back row of Wilson at 6, Billy at 8 and Underhill at 7 will work? Are Wilson or Underhill able to contribute in the line out? If they can then that should work for 6Ns and RWC.

Wilson is a strong 3rd line-out jumper. Shields is a decent jumper as well but doesn't offer as much as Wilson around the park IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Underhill tried at 6 with Tom Curry at 7 during the 6 Nations. Jones likes physicality and those two dominate tackles like none of our back row options since Worsley have.

LondonTiger wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

I would rather England finished mid table with a couple of losses

Heresy - Stone Him, Stone Him!!

Are there any women here?

#metoo

Im afraid the big game subject of this thread comes too soon for one side. Lets be honest, England aren't even sure what their best team is in almost every position except perhaps 9 and 15 and those players they deem fundamental to success (The Vunipolas) will be returning to International rugby - if fit- against the best side they will probably play next year, in the first encounter.

I expect Ireland to put them away comfortably and for England to then travel to Cardiff where the game will be much, much tighter. For me thats the crucial game of the 6 Nations as, if Wales can nick it, they'll fight over the Slam in Cardiff on the last afternoon.

I would disagree on England not knowing their best team. I think most people would go with something close to:

Mako V, George, Sinkler, Itoje, Lawes, Bill V, Robshaw, ???, Youngs, Farrell, T'eo, Manu, May, Cokansinga, Daly

Big query over who starts at 7 - Curry or Underhill. Like most teams there are some 50/50 calls depending on fitness and form - so perm 1 from Robshaw, Wilson or Shields - start George and bench Hartley or vice versa - but there are per Edie Jones 28 or so of the 31 man squad inked in.

If Ireland win the grand slam good luck to them, I hope their players are as arrogantly confident as you are. If you think Ireland will put England away comfortably as they haven't been able to do in the last 10 years then fine. When you spend all your time worrying about England, it shows me you aren't that confident about your team.

Don't want to be arrogant but also don't want history rewritten.

Last 6N meeting was quite comfortable for Ireland.  And that's not just me, as an Irishman, who remembers it that way.  Here's an English paper's article on the encounter:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/17/england-ireland-six-nations-match-report

But rest assured, Ireland won't be arrogant pre-game.  They'll do a whole bunch of research on the English between now and the game and they'll have a dedicated plan ready to try to win.  But Ireland could of course still lose - yet right now, the successes are, I'd suggest, the exact opposite of arrogance.  They do their intense homework, they fight hard on game day itself and show tons of respect to their opposition.  Arrogance would be thinking you only have to turn up.  I don't think Schmidt's teams ever attempt that attitude.

It was a comfortable Irish win. But I don't think that the England team you will face in the new year will be anything like the same.

In practical terms it is probably still too early for this England to win, but Ireland won't be able to slip up.

I just hope Billy is fit. I can remember one game where Ireland completely failed to deal with him.

SecretFly wrote:Don't want to be arrogant but also don't want history rewritten. Last 6N meeting was quite comfortable for Ireland.

Yes. we were 5-24 down midway through the second hald, in a season when we'd already been held to 12, 13, and 16 points by Wales, Scotland & France. Stockdale's try before half time put an end to whatever comeback we had tried to mount.

Sharkey06 wrote:I would disagree on England not knowing their best team.  I think most people would go with something close to:

Mako V, George, Sinkler, Itoje, Lawes, Bill V, Robshaw, ???, Youngs, Farrell, T'eo, Manu, May, Cokansinga, Daly

Big query over who starts at 7 - Curry or Underhill.  Like most teams there are some 50/50 calls depending on fitness and form - so perm 1 from Robshaw, Wilson or Shields - start George and bench Hartley or vice versa - but there are per Edie Jones 28 or so of the 31 man squad inked in.

If Ireland win the grand slam good luck to them, I hope their players are as arrogantly confident as you are.  If you think Ireland will put England away comfortably as they haven't been able to do in the last 10 years then fine.  When you spend all your time worrying about England, it shows me you aren't that confident about your team.

Joseph, Watson, Launchbury, Simmonds to name but 4 that would disagree with that and me for that matter.

I think Jones will know what side he wants to put out vs Ireland. Whether availability allows his choice is another question. I'd echo the thoughts above Ireland were comfortable last game. We needed to get a bit lucky and didn't. I'd be surprised should this game follow that same trend.

It's going to be a hard old slog for all sides.  

The one thing I feel all sides will need is a class B side (as it were).  With WC on the horizon, nobody can be overly cavalier with their presumed best players.  Now everybody also knows that anything can happen in a competition, and players that you relied on can sometimes lose form dramatically just when they most need it.  But largely, all teams are going to rely on a handful of central characters through the next WC.

So this 6N coming looks like being a real fight of some very heavyweight physical sides trying to kick the crap out of each other.  Central players will have to be used strategically but taken off pretty promptly when work is done.  In a high quality contest that's when most damage can be done to a winning side.... that moment when they feel confident enough to take off influential players.

So I think a lot will come down to those bench players, their quality, their trustworthy factor in the eyes of their respective coaches.  The winning of 6N will come down to quality of bench players and/or injury replacement drop ins.

One thing I do agree with is that England will be better than last 6 nations. As will Wales.
But one thing some of the English posters seem to be missing , is that Ireland will also improve. If they think Joe or the players are happy with everything and they seem themselves as the best they can be, well they can't have been paying much attention.

lostinwales wrote:It was a comfortable Irish win. But I don't think that the England team you will face in the new year will be anything like the same.

In practical terms it is probably still too early for this England to win, but Ireland won't be able to slip up.

I just hope Billy is fit. I can remember one game where Ireland completely failed to deal with him.

Agree with all that

carpet baboon wrote:One thing I do agree with is that England will be better than last 6 nations. As will Wales.
But one thing some of the English posters seem to be missing , is that Ireland will also improve. If they think Joe or the players are happy with everything and they seem themselves as the best they can be, well they can't have been paying much attention.

Ireland at home will be favourites but it could easily end in a loss.

Yes, especially if you continue to have doubts about your team even while they continue to win. Scotland at home are also proving to be tough so if Ireland do lose in Dublin, they could find themselves doing an england from last year.

Having a doubt about your team doesnt make them lose. Did that sound more intelligent in your head or something?

If we lose all our games then there is a real danger that we might come last. People gotta keep that in mind too.

Sharkey06 wrote:
 If you think Ireland will put England away comfortably as they haven't been able to do in the last 10 years then fine.  

Last season, 2015 and 2011 were all comfortable wins for Ireland. Sure last season England fought back but as with the other games mentioned Ireland never looked like anything but easy winners.

Yep. Not sure about others but I'll be going into the Ireland game with more hope than expectation

Ireland on the road is always a difficult game, this squad of theirs just looks to have no real weaknesses to attack, outside of possibly reserve half backs

LondonTiger wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:
 If you think Ireland will put England away comfortably as they haven't been able to do in the last 10 years then fine.  

Last season, 2015 and 2011 were all comfortable wins for Ireland. Sure last season England fought back but as with the other games mentioned Ireland never looked like anything but easy winners.

Ireland has won more games v England in the history of the six nations than any other side. Ireland have also more head to head wins in the six nations than England have v Ireland and England have not won in Dublin for about 6 years.

I think factoring in form too that should make Ireland favorites but that doesn't come with any guarantees.

The one hope for England is that Ireland often seem to be unable to turn dominance into points against the better sides. If we can claim to be one of those better sides we can perhaps keep the score closer than it should be and hope for a purple patch.

If England can beat SA and effectively beat NZ then they can beat Ireland if it comes together right for them. I don't think they will but what goes up must come down so there will definitely be some speed bumps along the way for Ireland for the rest of JS's tenure.

For example, we play Wales I think three times before the WC itself? (two away?)

I'll be absolutely amazed if we manage to win all three.  Wales are just too smart a side and they have the old niggler-par-excellence himself in Gats.

So speed bumps will undoubtedly hit Ireland into next year - we have to not only anticipate them but acknowledge them and use defeat positively (whether it be Wales, Scotland, England or France (just like New Zealand have done in the past and continue to do now)

But I think that's also a pretty good yardstick for the year IF we managed to win all three of those Welsh games.  I think that would probably be the most useful marker of Ireland's real chances come the WC.

Yeah its very unlikely that we will win all three v Wales. Our head to head v Wales under Schmidt is 2-1-2. Win draw loss.

It will also be interesting to see how the euro games go. Poor showing by any of the Unions teams and we will see headlines of the national team struggling.

If Leinster where to struggle in any way v wasps and bath it might take some of the gloss off the Irish team

Brendan wrote:It will also be interesting to see how the euro games go. Poor showing by any of the Unions teams and we will see headlines of the national team struggling.

If Leinster where to struggle in any way v wasps and bath it might take some of the gloss off the Irish team

I cannot see that happening. Both teams are pretty poor at the moment. It would not surprise me to see either or both put out weakened teams to concentrate on league.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Brendan wrote:It will also be interesting to see how the euro games go. Poor showing by any of the Unions teams and we will see headlines of the national team struggling.

If Leinster where to struggle in any way v wasps and bath it might take some of the gloss off the Irish team

I cannot see that happening. Both teams are pretty poor at the moment. It would not surprise me to see either or both put out weakened teams to concentrate on league.

Surely neither team would want a thrashing at home in front of their fans. You would think the players at home would lift their game

Brendan wrote:It will also be interesting to see how the euro games go. Poor showing by any of the Unions teams and we will see headlines of the national team struggling.

If Leinster where to struggle in any way v wasps and bath it might take some of the gloss off the Irish team

I think from here on in we'll see if Leinster players believe they have the ability to do League Competition, Europe HC and Ireland International (6NplusWC) in the one year!  Leinster are under a lot of pressure - double and triple jobbing with now a price on their heads no matter which way they look or what competition they turn up for.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if something suffers.  Maybe Europe will be the one, considering it is Leinster's headliners that usually take up most of the strain of that that competition. We'll soon enough find out.

Things look promising as we delve deeper into the reserves though.  Some spectacular results during and post-International Window.  We'll see.  But failing in Europe this year wouldn't be so disappointing if it meant the powder was kept dry for that WC.

Sorry to bring the topic back to English rugby, but I see Alex Dombrandt is the hot name this weekend after his performance against Exeter

Who / what / where / how are my questions

Collapse2005 wrote:Having a doubt about your team doesnt make them lose. Did that sound more intelligent in your head or something?

Yeah it can and does. Its like saying your single vote doesnt count. A non vote must be in a small way a plus for the other side.

If every Irish fan has and expresses the same doubts as you, particularly after citing soooooooo many reasons and stats that support a win the team would carry some of that doubt, for certain.

Ask the last 8 World cup squads.

Doubt is what could count against them. Supporters like you, they definitely dont need. they want players, and fans, that will support them, not those that still carry the guilt of the past efforts. ‘We’re really good now, but despite that we could still lose, we always used to. Failure...IS...an option.’

Thats coming through loud and clear.

WTF are you talking about?

Collapse2005 wrote:WTF are you talking about?

Fly judging by results that the B team got I think Leinster will be fine if they need to call up a few replacements. I think Leinster are building an aura and have beaten most teams in the league before the game starts because have just put the game down as a loss.

Brendan wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Brendan wrote:It will also be interesting to see how the euro games go. Poor showing by any of the Unions teams and we will see headlines of the national team struggling.

If Leinster where to struggle in any way v wasps and bath it might take some of the gloss off the Irish team

I cannot see that happening. Both teams are pretty poor at the moment. It would not surprise me to see either or both put out weakened teams to concentrate on league.

Surely neither team would want a thrashing at home in front of their fans.  You would think the players at home would lift their game

I am sure neither want a thrashing but they would prefer a thrashing in the Euro comp than in the league. In Bath's case at least they have the spectre of relegation. I suspect for most fans of English clubs the league will always be the priority. As a Gloucester fan I would prefer to see my team win league than the European Champion's Cup but as both are unlikely that prioritisation is pretty academic.

BamBam wrote:Sorry to bring the topic back to English rugby, but I see Alex Dombrandt is the hot name this weekend after his performance against Exeter

Who / what / where / how are my questions

Dombrandt put in a great shift for a kid in his 3rd Premiership game. He was at university not that long ago and it's going to take a little while for him to get properly in shape for a professional game. The pundits compared him to a young Nick Easter, which isn't an inappropriate comparison. He's got a decent amount of Easter's power and skills, but he can also shift.

However, I think he's one for the next RWC cycle. If he stays fit and continues to develop, it'll be interesting to see him going up against Billy V for the No 8 shirt one day.

Quiz:

Which player has Joe Schmidt picked more than any other to play for Ireland.

Hint. Its not Dave Kearney nor Rob.

Earls?

No, too often injured

Devin Toner?

Girvan Dempsey?

king_carlos wrote:Devin Toner?

Yep

Collapse2005 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Devin Toner?

Yep

Watch Toner for a phase and he looks ridiculous. Watch him for an entire game and you realise his effectiveness.

There's few bigger compliments you can give someone hidden in the boiler room than disliking seeing them in the opposition.

All this talk of not taking the 6 Nations serious. No team has won back to back slams as we heard last year.  We play England and France at home.  Only Wales away should worry us if we are serious about being as good as the ABs.

Then we head into the pre world cup games to give everyone a run out. We can also use the group stages as warm ups. Again we should respect nations but Japan should be beaten easily with our game plan and power. We saw what happened when England brought on their bench. Only Scotland is the tricky game.

Joe knows who is first and second choice in each position and both should be good enough to win if mixed in with starters.  All the Munster and Leinster lads should be getting a good run in Europe so it's not like our players won't be getting top level rugby. While its unlikely our Pro 14 spots will stay the same we could get 4 in the playoffs, we should get 3.

Well at least Underhill is showing rather well against a few of the Irish pack in bath v Leinster. Probably the motm on a losing side. Showed he tackle carry and poach with the best.

I was kind of hoping Bath would do England a favor during Saturdays game. Oh well never mind.