6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

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6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

England starting XV (485 caps)

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

Finishers (206 caps)

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

Oh Christ, here we go

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's black.

When you say push back do you mean push back from England fans? Id say people are more likely to dislike him as he plays for Sarries.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's black.

When you say push back do you mean push back from England fans? Id say people are more likely to dislike him as he plays for Sarries.

For me its because he's as annoying as he is overrated.

It one of the reasons certainly that there's animosity due to his club.

I find him a bit annoying too which seems to be something that goes hand in hand with playing for Sarries. Celebrating when other teams make mistakes, rubbing it in other teams faces, that kind of nonsense.

Don't think he is over rated really. He is excellent in the lineout, good in the loose, decent work rate and good at the breakdown. I think he had a bad year last year but that's to be expected as the English players are flogged to death by their clubs which historically tends to prove too much after a Lions tour.

Yeah. And you'll see that a lot of others do the same. Not sure you have access to BBC in Ireland but there is a good article as I said which touches on it. Related to the abuse and rubbish sterling gets. Genge is the rugby player picked out, he thinks the stuff he gets is more to do with working class roots.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. And you'll see that a lot of others do the same. Not sure you have access to BBC in Ireland but there is a good article as I said which touches on it. Related to the abuse and rubbish sterling gets. Genge is the rugby player picked out,  he thinks the stuff he gets is more tondonwith working class roots.

Yes I do but not the player unfortunately. Send me on the link. Thanks.

Wish the player worked as there is some good shows like Bodyguard etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. And you'll see that a lot of others do the same. Not sure you have access to BBC in Ireland but there is a good article as I said which touches on it. Related to the abuse and rubbish sterling gets. Genge is the rugby player picked out,  he thinks the stuff he gets is more to do with working class roots.

I don't know what is blocked etc.in relation to the site. Some is region specific.

Can you quantify the leeway not given to Itoje based on his race?

Could it not equally be that the desire to avoid racial criticism gives him more leeway from some, particularly public, people - tropes such as ill disciplined black players, for instance, are fairly established, racist attacks used on black sportspeople. Along with laziness, lack of talent v physical/gnetic ability etc.

But also, ill discipline is true in this specific instance. Itoje is ill disciplined, and has been costing England since he first started for them by being overly zealous, particularly at the breakdown.

There's still plenty of overt racism - as well as many other cultural problems - in English rugby as I've experienced it. But not sure it's one of the important factors to discuss when it comes to him fulfilling his potential or not. If anything, if we're talking about public perception etc., the desire to big up Itoje as 'FEC' and making him a media darling before his first cap is the kind of thing British journalism excels at - but it makes it a lot, lot harder for any 'star' to actually grow and find their level without undue pressure.

Again, not saying race isn't a factor - look at Zebo this weekend from none other than his own Irish supporters - but not sure it's that relevant to Itoje. Club and international coaching and environment plays a much bigger part.

Pretty hard to quantify if isn't it. I'm sure you'll agree that it will be partly due to his ethnicity. I don't think I've ever seen itoje cost England tbh. Class player. If fit he's going to play.

miaow wrote:Can you quantify the leeway not given to Itoje based on his race?

Could it not equally be that the desire to avoid racial criticism gives him more leeway from some, particularly public, people - tropes such as ill disciplined black players, for instance, are fairly established, racist attacks used on black sportspeople. Along with laziness, lack of talent v physical/gnetic ability etc.

But also, ill discipline is true in this specific instance. Itoje is ill disciplined, and has been costing England since he first started for them by being overly zealous, particularly at the breakdown.

There's still plenty of overt racism - as well as many other cultural problems - in English rugby as I've experienced it. But not sure it's one of the important factors to discuss when it comes to him fulfilling his potential or not. If anything, if we're talking about public perception etc., the desire to big up Itoje as 'FEC' and making him a media darling before his first cap is the kind of thing British journalism excels at - but it makes it a lot, lot harder for any 'star' to actually grow and find their level without undue pressure.

Again, not saying race isn't a factor - look at Zebo this weekend from none other than his own Irish supporters - but not sure it's that relevant to Itoje. Club and international coaching and environment plays a much bigger part.

Id hate to think Ireland fans are giving Zebo sh1t but its all a bit vague as to what actually happened. I don't think it is something Zebo would have experienced that much in inter provincial games but maybe I'm wrong. Have actually never come across anything like that any game I have ever been at.

No 7&1/2 wrote: I'm sure you'll agree that it will be partly due to his ethnicity.

No, see, this is the reason why I ask you to quantify it. Because there is lots of racism among England rugby fans - but, like most elitism, the overt stuff is hidden and spoken in code or behind closed doors until they think they're in safe company. But how does it relate to Itoje?

If you can't at least qualify your assumption then it ceases to be analysis and instead if simply solipsistic projection of a set of assumptions - which doesn't really help when dealing with a matter as fraught as systemic racism.

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: I'm sure you'll agree that it will be partly due to his ethnicity.

No, see, this is the reason why I ask you to quantify it. Because there is lots of racism among England rugby fans - but, like most elitism, the overt stuff is hidden and spoken in code or behind closed doors until they think they're in safe company. But how does it relate to Itoje?

If you can't at least qualify your assumption then it ceases to be analysis and instead if simply solipsistic projection of a set of assumptions - which doesn't really help when dealing with a matter as fraught as systemic racism.

I doubt there is lots of racism amongst England fans.

And I absolutely disagree with your assumption based on experience, Collapse. It's of a 'set' of English fans, admittedly...and it's not your Exeter, Gloucester, Newcastle fans, in which case you can argue whether they are 'rugby' fans or not. But get these people together and it comes out fairly quickly. I've heard the word 'n*g' used in just about every way possible to put someone down - verb, adjective, noun etc. The casual, and then fervent, racism is there.

How do you quantify something like that miaow. Your argument is similar to the defence towards how sterling has been treated for years.
There's quite a lot of racism in England collapse.

Evidence, 7.5.

Raheem Sterling gets booed in most grounds around England by England fans. Sometimes even when playing for England. Then there are the newspapers etc. and general social media attitudes perpetuated by supposed fans.

I don't see any of that regarding Itoje and any implict or explicit racism. But then I might have missed it, who knows? It's why I'm asking.

The thing I have noticed is how Itoje was bigged up because he's a marketing dream. He's young, attractive, tall and well built, seems grounded and down to earth and relatively intelligent and interesting. Add in that he's black and he becomes a posterboy for modern day, multicultural England and in particular London - for rugby, a sport still achingly elitist (see Genge's remarks that hit the nail on the head) eventhough Itoje had a very privileged upbringing and educated relative to the vast majority of English or British people, he can still be used as an English Jonah Lomu to spread and normalise the sport to BAME and working class kids who are actively shunned from the game, or, even when they persist, are sometimes merely tolerated rather than encouraged on equal terms. 'Visibility' alone isn't enough - I believe the RFU also has a state school programme, for instance, and that is invaluable in creating a link to academies/clubs, particularly in homes without a father or encouraging male role model (not just a 'black' thing, despite recent press coverage!) - but it's a pretty good start.

Now, how that relates to Maro Itoje as the professional rugby player i.e. his performance for 80 minutes every week, I don't see it.

I have no 'argument' 7.5. I'm asking you to clarify and support what you said, otherwise it's empty and possibly inflammatory rhetoric.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How do you quantify something like that miaow. Your argument is similar to the defence towards how sterling has been treated for years.
There's quite a lot of racism in England collapse.

Yeah but a lot amongst England fans? Hasn't been my experience.

I would say there is a deep, deep racism at the very heart of a portion of English society. The same people tend to enjoy rugby - but their love of the game, as I said, is less based on the sport, perhaps, and more on culture and how they were raised in it.

As a percentage of fans? Arguably not that big - but then this is hard to quantify. I've found you also get oribters, people who hang on to coat-tails and mimic the behaviour and attitudes of the people they aspire to be.

I'd say it's fair to say there is a lot, because it's certainly not 'one or two'. It's systemic, and it is violently intense. It's simply well hidden.

You're also highly unlikely to see it in a stadium. The abuse Nigel Owens received a few years ago, for instance, is a rarity.

You say its only a portion of fans and then you say its systemic. Which is it?

There is more diversity in the UK than lots of places so in my experience more so than other less diverse countries you are also more likely to find people who are much more accepting of other cultures through persistent exposure to them.

Both.

Welcome to the British class system - the most hierarchical and delineated class system in the world!

Fine miaow. You can see it like that and many people feel that sterling gets what he deserves and there's no racism attached to it.

Yeah it's there collapse. It's throughout society.

Wait, are you saying Raheem Sterling 'gets what he deserves'?

miaow wrote:Both.

Welcome to the British class system - the most hierarchical and delineated class system in the world!

Im sorry but its either systemic or its not. It cant be both.

Collapse2005 wrote:There is more diversity in the UK than lots of places so in my experience more so than other less diverse countries you are also more likely to find people who are much more accepting of other cultures through persistent exposure to them.  

This is true. But it also doesn't factor in the ability human beings have in harbouring contradictory views simultaneously.

For instance, having an insidious, culturally constructed distrust or dislike of other races based on what you've grown to believe, and perhaps fed by modern media. And yet you love your Pakistani next door neighbour, they're really nice...but they don't count. They're not like the others.

This isn't really worth a discussion though. It's real and it's there. In part, the rapid demograhpic change, particularly in British cities, is both creating tolerance and seeing a rise in racism as culture and society changes in a short space of time (not just demographic, but cultural, technological, economic etc.). But even then, there are shades of tolerance. Would you be happy for a child to marry someone non-white, for instance? Or to have a non-white boss? In my experience, this is where I've seen otherwise 'tolerant' people lose their sheet and start becoming openly racist because of power imbalance and the confusion at what British society has generally held to be true re: race and competence/ability/deserving. But the racism still isn't overt. It seeps out into other displaced avenues, I've found. The likes of Murdoch and Dacre have known this for years. That's why they've actively pandered to and exacerbated peoples' fears - and that's how we ended up with Brexit. Take 100 Brexit voters, and if they're being honest, I would bet around 50% would cite immigration as being the main reason for voting for it. And that itself is worthy of discussion - why has immigration policy and integration in certain parts of Britain been hanlded so flippantly, and gone so horribly wrong? And why is the response ambivalence?

But it's not a disccusion to be having on 606...

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:Both.

Welcome to the British class system - the most hierarchical and delineated class system in the world!

Im sorry but its either systemic or its not. It cant be both.

Without being rude, I feel we're talking at two different levels and it's going to be hard to meet in the middle.

No pretty clearly I'm arguing he gets the reception he gets media etc because he's black.

I wasn't sure, 7.5, as it was strangely worded. You seem to be disagreeing with me and then offering up the alternative - i.e. what he deserves.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fine miaow. You can see it like that and many people feel that sterling gets what he deserves and there's no racism attached to it.

In any case, as I said, I think the Sterling case is cut and dry in terms of racist scapegoating and giving rabid white people someone to direct their hate towards. But I don't think Itoje is in any way comparable - as I said, I see no evidence of Itoje getting 'less leeway' in rugby (from chairman, coaches, even fans) because he's black. Which is why I don't think it was worth mentioning in relation to how he has/hasn't developed since the Lions.

And yet you'll still find people adamant it's not racism behind it all and he's treated the same. You see it all the time.
Well this isn't quantifiable but the big thing about itoje at present is he's not playing smart (you touched on this wider point) due to the amount of pens given away. Saw it on Twitter this weekend for his incredibly harsh yellow. No real thought in why he's giving them away ie his style is very close to the lines of law and sometimes making the deliberate choice to foul (His yellow in the autumn for insatnce).
Now look at the love in for Wilson. Have a look at his record for pens this autumn. Go further as 1 pen was miss recorded vs japan though I doubt anyone's going to check that so you can just believe me. Have a think back at what they were for. Much more brain dead. Pretty much universally lauded.

What position was Wilson playing? Does that not enter the equation? Also respective caps/level of experience etc.

I'll have to take your word re: penalty count but 2-3 years of cheap penalties due to pushing the boundaries of the law is definitely a trend. Can't say the same with Wilson over, what, 4 starts?

But it's a possibility. As I said earlier though, Itoje is being judged against his 'FEC' tag. Wilson isn't. Hence discrepancy of public opinion.

8 and 7. I'll just point out my original point expressed other things than race but it's so easy to dismiss it with a wave of the hand. Just like sterling has had to put up with.

Yeah of course. I'm happy to leave it there.

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:Both.

Welcome to the British class system - the most hierarchical and delineated class system in the world!

Im sorry but its either systemic or its not. It cant be both.

Without being rude, I feel we're talking at two different levels and it's going to be hard to meet in the middle.

Lol. Yes you definitely think you operate on another level. You would think someone operating at such lofty heights wouldnt so obviously contradict themselves

I tried not to be rude, but honestly, you seem to be missing the point and grasping at semantics, which makes it quite hard to move on without being offensive unless I'm just going to ignore you. But that might make you think you're correct, which surely doesn't help anyone?

Racism is systemic within the English public school system/upper and upper middle classes. Not every English rugby fan is racist. Therefore, systemic in one sense, and partial when referring to the other. I fail to see the contradiction.

Because Britain is so classified, I think it's fair to talk about these sections of society as systemic in their own right, because the cultural, social, and economic mechanisms that sustain them are so separate from those 'outside' them. If you disagree - so be it - but as I said, I feel like we're way past the point of finding a common ground of understanding and I don't believe discussing that would be done in good faith.  

For starters, you don't even recognise the prevalence of English racism as a whole, let alone among the upper/upper middle classes, so there's no way we'll be able to discuss the intricacies and validity of class-based racism.

My personal opinion is that racism, whilst not exclusively confined is found mainly in the working classes and lower end middle classes. People who are frightened of change and the effect it might have on their job security and the like. Also a small minority who don't have the IQ to understand that the pigment in a persons skin is a natural defence and if they spent 6000 years in Africa, they would be the same. These people are the ones that are easily led and can only express themselves via insults and bigotry.

Rugby people, often coming from a better educated background, in my experience have a much smaller number of bigots; when it comes to race anyway. the upper classes have always dealt with people from different lands and been educated at schools which take in paying students from anywhere that can pay.

I am not saying it doesn't happen but in the 55 years I have been involved in rugby, I have yet to witness a racist action or comment.

Class discrimination, well now your are talking about something endemic in the sport.

I'm genuinely amazed you've never experienced racism in rugby Well Past It. That's definitely a good thing though. I can remember watching from the sidelines when I was very young at a local club, and an East Asian winger being given a 'streched eye' gesture from another player (mens 1st team game I should add). That was a formative thing.

Because you're speaking in generalisations, it's hard to really argue with you. On the surface, your point is a sensible one - and because it's personal to you, who are we to say it's a 'wrong' experience?

But I feel your assessments of class based racism definitely are off the mark. As I said above, if you shift power (as is currently happening on a global scale) away from the 'elties' you'll see the true belly of racism that exists. And, as with everything, it's often power that is the ultimate motivation. Education - even the best money can buy - is no guarantee of empathy, intelligence, honesty, and self reflection. In fact, those environments often produce the exact opposite. However, people from that background are far better at hiding it - Brexit is a cry for help from large parts of working class Britain as a self-defeating change. But there's no need to verbalise the superego for the upper classes (until they start going a bit senile...) as they're far less 'threatened' by immigration in any real cultural, social, or economic sense.

I think the tolerance of other races is different between the classes - and very interesting, as well - but I don't believe, outside the aforementioned avenues of power, one class is intrinsically more racist than the other. I merely think working class racism is based on finding an avenue for fear and powerlessness, and in some cases a sense of losing culture, community, and perhaps negative individual experiences; upper class racism is based on plain and simple racial superiority bred through extreme privilege and a lack of exposure to any real sense of 'fair' competitiveness. A good proportion of people I have come across who went to public school are incredibly impressive people initially, but once you got to know them, very, very average, particularly intellectually. But the ability to bullpoo your way into keeping power is invaluable: or, well, you know...

miaow wrote:I tried not to be rude, but honestly, you seem to be missing the point and grasping at semantics, which makes it quite hard to move on without being offensive unless I'm just going to ignore you. But that might make you think you're correct, which surely doesn't help anyone?

Racism is systemic within the English public school system/upper and upper middle classes. Not every English rugby fan is racist. Therefore, systemic in one sense, and partial when referring to the other. I fail to see the contradiction.

Because Britain is so classified, I think it's fair to talk about these sections of society as systemic in their own right, because the cultural, social, and economic mechanisms that sustain them are so separate from those 'outside' them. If you disagree - so be it - but as I said, I feel like we're way past the point of finding a common ground of understanding and I don't believe discussing that would be done in good faith.  

For starters, you don't even recognise the prevalence of English racism as a whole, let alone among the upper/upper middle classes, so there's no way we'll be able to discuss the intricacies and validity of class-based racism.

Im not grasping at semantics. Referring to rugby on the one hand you claim its only a small proportion and then you again referring to rugby state that racism is systemic. Just admit it you contradicted yourself.

Drop the Paxman act. There's no contradiction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L9yoaGLIAQ

You strike me as someone who reached their educational peak with a degree in gender studies or something pointless like that and now feels like they have the world figured out. Am I right?

Hahahahahaha

Most of the world is ruled by Gender Studies idiots who feel they have the world figured out.  Thank God for the lone-wolf boorish bollix, Trump.  Long may he linger.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. And you'll see that a lot of others do the same. Not sure you have access to BBC in Ireland but there is a good article as I said which touches on it. Related to the abuse and rubbish sterling gets. Genge is the rugby player picked out,  he thinks the stuff he gets is more to do with working class roots.

Stop it munkian, (you mean as opposed to have access to it in England, where he plays?)

Taylorman wrote:

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. And you'll see that a lot of others do the same. Not sure you have access to BBC in Ireland but there is a good article as I said which touches on it. Related to the abuse and rubbish sterling gets. Genge is the rugby player picked out,  he thinks the stuff he gets is more to do with working class roots.

Stop it munkian, (you mean as opposed to have access to it in England, where he plays?)

Again, I feel I need to clarify, Itojie could be porcelain white and play for the darlings of English rugby Exeter and I'd still think hes a bit of a knob.

Though the whole 'Chiefs' thing is massively dodgy itself.

SecretFly wrote:Most of the world is ruled by Gender Studies idiots who feel they have the world figured out.  Thank God for the lone-wolf boorish bollix, Trump.  Long may he linger.

Please don't Fly, the thought is horrifying. The Japanese have a saying which is doubly suited to Trump, "to wear a cat” or “to put a cat on one's head.” This expression is used when someone is putting on an appearance of sweetness or friendliness, while hiding their true personality. Trump gets double as he literally wears the cat all the time. (not mine I admit, came from Jimmy Carr).

He is impressive though, not many humans can grow 3" in a few weeks at his age and suddenly stop being obese overnight. Must be something to do with that massive, very intelligent brain he has keeping him in super fit shape, well super fit for a Mr. Blobby.

He can grow so bigly because he has no moral conscience weighing him down.

"conscience", isn't that what he calls evidence of global warming, "con-science".

SecretFly wrote:Most of the world is ruled by Gender Studies idiots who feel they have the world figured out.  Thank God for the lone-wolf boorish bollix, Trump.  Long may he linger.

I would say its probably just Canada that's ruled by a gender studies idiot.

I'm no fan of Trump as he is a total buffoon but there are plenty of more dangerous leaders like socialists Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela or Cristina Kirchner the former president of Argentina who may run again in the next elections. I would also probably marginally prefer Trump to be my president than a far right leader like Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil for example.  

Just over two weeks to the England game. Tick tock.

And we've managed to not have the thread closed down yet, well done chaps