6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

England starting XV (485 caps)

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

Finishers (206 caps)

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

Just avoiding answering full stop miaow. No problem getting used to it now. It seems the easiest way is to just avoid ala Lord dowlais than answers simple questions.

Anyhow night. Just in case you get as wound up as LD for ' Wi-Fi going down' I need sleep too.

You're not a barrister and this isn't a courtroom - you don't get to select the narrow paramters in which you want to discuss something, particularly when your responses are a garble of grammatical nonsense...and that's before even contemplating your opinions!

Anyway, as I started this by questioning why Ashton wasn't in the England set-up ahead of Daly, I think it is almost certainly because May hit such a good run of form for the team. Will it last? Who knows. They're similar players, with Ashton having better tracking and running angles, but there's no substitute for raw pace, and May is one of the quickest in the game.

Give him enough space and he will score tries, as EJ and England have found. The ban probably didn't help Ashton either, but he still played in the AIs, so EJ must like him. But, like May, a flawed all round player, although they have both improved as they've got older. No real surprise he goes for Daly's more rounded talents on the other wing but I don't think Daly is a winger - I'm not sure where he 'should' play though, so maybe wing allows England to do something interesting in the centres, where if Daly were at 13, it limits them somewhat in terms of playing style and personnel at 12 and 22/23. Add Cockanasiga in there and England have three very potent finishers, all a little bit different to each other - it's how they cut the cloth in terms of abilities. Do they want kicking? Power? Pace? Who plays 15 etc. Is there space for someone like Nowell, a tidy and tricky player with none of the attributes the other 3 have?

Should be a good test against Ireland. I imagine the aerial game will test May and England's back 3 to the limit at times.

Night 7.5 xoxo

S9 no mention of how may is flawed though. J7st mention of how Daly is preferred on the other wing while playing 15....Yes best ignore and move on to something else miaow. You really show yourself up moving onto anything other than core Welsh rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:S9 no mention of how may is flawed though. J7st mention of how Daly is preferred on the other wing while playing 15....Yes best ignore and move on to something else miaow. You really show yourself up moving onto anything other than core Welsh rugby.

Mike Brown still stands a good chance of being England's 15, as he was last 6Ns, come the RWC if he's fit seeing as EJ won't pick Goode. As does Daly on the wing, where he played last 6Ns. The 'Daly at 15' thing is an experiment/trying to find a place for him, but it's hardly his fixed position - which is literally what I said above. If England struggle this 6Ns an lose 2 games, he'll probably tear up the backline again before the RWC, if he isn't planning on doing so already.

I'll say why May's flawed if you say why he's the best winger in the world first. Deal? You can agree or decline when you've sobered up in the morning (or is it 'fat fingers' haha)...

miaow wrote:Would you say I'm dodging laterally, 7.5? Evading by travelling sideways?

Yeah yeah he runs sideways and he's half crazy, so he's not a real rugby player. Sigh..

Miaow, if you disagree when someone argues a player is the best in the world, all you have to do is bring up one point to counter it. It's not really an onerous task. Perhaps May's penchant for going sideways is your point but that would be odd criticism to make, given that May has stopped doing it, which is a major reason he has improved at Test level.

Personally, I'd have Stockdale over May at the moment. I don't think "best in the world" is just about the last season. For me, it also carries a sense of what performance you expect in the near future, and it feels like Stockdale is going to keep getting better, at a faster rate than May.

One thing May has going for him at the moment, is that he's probably still a little underrated by opposition teams. He doesn't scare people as much as Ioane or even Kolbe, who are seen as players who can score from nothing. His Twickenham try against New Zealand was over four years ago but now, we tend to think of him more as a player who scores by outpacing the defence to a kick put through behind, as he did to beat South Africa in the third Test on tour last year.

Funnily enough, though, he did score a couple of belters in South Africa but they have largely been forgotten, because we ended up on the losing side. If he can bring that form to the Six Nations, then it's hard to see how Jones will be able to drop him. If Brown does get selected at full back then Ashton, Watson (when fit), Nowell, Daly and Cokanasiga will be fighting over one starting slot. That's one reason I wonder why Thorley is in the squad, since it would seem to give you less chance make a decision on them.

Jones does like looking at players in training though rather than from the prem or Europe. Suppose it's just about putting them into certain situations and how quickly they take on advice. Thorley form wise deserves the call but yeah can't see him getting a game unless a few people go down injured.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Decent kicking game for a winger. Not in full back class I'd wager as  discussed perhaps here or the England nations thread.

No I meant Curry, is Curry a good kicker? I was lining up a joke. Curry chips ahead...kicking...never mind.

LondonTiger wrote:May scored 8 tries in 11 internationals last season with 5 assists. Pretty good record in a misfiring team. It is hard to rate players though as we all look at different things with a different perspective.

If you want a chuckle though look at RugbyPass's player ratings. None of these three make the top 15 wingers in a list that is topped by Cheslin Kolbe and base Dave Kearney at 11. From memory at least 3 Irish Wingers are rated higher than Stockdale a few Kiwis higher than Ioane and about a dozen Englishmen higher than May (including Lozowski on the back of one game).

Thats a good return and a reason why you can make a solid argument for him being the best winger around IMO.

Oh. I'm to have spoiled that collapse!

So to summarise this argument: some think may is one of the best (if not the best) due to a good scoring record and number of assists, all very valid and a good reason to acknowledge his quality. Miouw has questioned this and in his opinion he isn't the best in the world because of some flaw (unspecified at the moment), also perfectly fine. Let's respect each others opinion and move on. Let me start. Who else thinks that for the very first time England have a squad where several different game plans can be sort due to the variety of players at their disposal. We have heavy artillery and more suitable play makers. Personally this will test Eddie's tactical acumen because he hasn't had this before where he's been forced to go down one route due to injury or unavailability. The pressure is on in my opinion. Discuss.

Pressure is on. I think Borthwick needs to show this lineout nous myself. NZ took us apart yes slightly against the rules at times but took the wind from our sails nonetheless. It's an area Ireland have regularly killed us and it's the key area for me. Much more than the breakdown. How solid can we be and can we actually beat them up a little at that set piece.

Agreed we need to keep Ireland guessing at the line out plenty of quick ones dummy jumping and the odd 5 man. Keep them guessing as this will prevent them cracking codes as we are too predictable in that regard. On their through throw the tallest possible combo up at the front against rorys throw and exert a little pressure ourselves. Stopping their excellent rolling maul also needs work, sack quickly and cause havoc. With our scrums get Billy's hands on it early and punch holes. Run at their jacklers all game make them tackle so they are in effect negated as they should in theory be on the deck and rolling away (garces is good at policing this though). Even better England should keep the ball alive and not let the Irish rest. Easier said than done though.

We seem to have stopped competing for opposition ball at lineouts other than by exception. When we do compete we manage to get penalised for playing the man in the air. Meanwhile George has been struggling with his throwing since becoming a starter. If we can be solid on our throw and pressure Best into the kind of performance that is becoming more frequent then we may have a chance.

However if our discipline fails us, and we conceded too many silly/over eager penalties we will allow Ireland easy yards and the pressure will build.

All we need to do to win is:

Win our lineout
Pressure Ireland's lineout
Steady in the scrums
Win the penalty count
Parity at the breakdown
Make the tackles
Catch the high balls
Kick chase well
Take all scoring opportunities.

Simple really 

What will be the line-ups do we think and how will they compare?

England

Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Kruis
Wilson
Billy V
Curry
Youngs
Farrell
May
T'eo
Slade
Nowell
Daly

Bench:
Moon
Cowan-Dickie
Cole
Launchbury
Hughes
Robson
Ford
Manu

Ireland

Healy
Best
Furlong
Ryan
Toner
O'Mahoney
Stander
Van de Flier
Murray
Sexton
Stockdale
Ringrose
Aki
Earls
Kearney

Bench

Mcgrath
Carbery
Not sure of the rest??

Any significant changes to these starting teams? Ireland defo big favourites, but England can turn them over if they are not properly on song. Should be a tight brutal encounter. Cannot wait.

One of the reasons this match is interesting, is that Jones has a reputation for coaching his teams to victory against a specific challenge. Japan against South Africa is the most obvious example but you could go back to the 2003 World Cup too, where Australia beat New Zealand in a match they were expected to lose.

Jones has two losses on the trot against Ireland and, so far, hasn't lost three in a row with England against any opposition. While we might want to use this 6N to develop towards the World Cup, I suspect Jones wants a win over Ireland more than anything else.

In effect, Jones has to try and get England to do to Ireland what Ireland have managed against New Zealand. If Farrell is fit, then our injury list will be about as benign as it's ever been, so Jones won't be short of bodies. I suspect he can also come up with a gameplan that will challenge in Dublin, so it will come down to whether the English have got the discipline and execution to match the Irish.

hugehandoff wrote:What will be the line-ups do we think and how will they compare?

England

Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Kruis
Wilson
Billy V
Curry
Youngs
Farrell
May
T'eo
Slade
Nowell
Daly

Bench:
Moon
Cowan-Dickie
Cole
Launchbury
Hughes
Robson
Ford
Manu

Ireland

Healy
Best
Furlong
Ryan
Toner
O'Mahoney
Stander
Van de Flier
Murray
Sexton
Stockdale
Ringrose
Aki
Earls
Kearney

Bench

Mcgrath
Carbery
Not sure of the rest??

Any significant changes to these starting teams? Ireland defo big favourites, but England can turn them over if they are not properly on song. Should be a tight brutal encounter. Cannot wait.

If Cole plays then he should start. He strength is his (regained) solidity. He is not however an impact player. In the same way I would use Mako as a finisher but I do not expect this to happen.

hugehandoff wrote:What will be the line-ups do we think and how will they compare?

England

Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Kruis
Wilson
Billy V
Curry
Youngs
Farrell
May
T'eo
Slade
Nowell
Daly

Bench:
Moon
Cowan-Dickie
Cole
Launchbury
Hughes
Robson
Ford
Manu

Ireland

Healy
Best
Furlong
Ryan
Toner
O'Mahoney
Stander
Van de Flier
Murray
Sexton
Stockdale
Ringrose
Aki
Earls
Kearney

Bench

Mcgrath
Carbery
Not sure of the rest??

Any significant changes to these starting teams? Ireland defo big favourites, but England can turn them over if they are not properly on song. Should be a tight brutal encounter. Cannot wait.

Close enough on the Ireland side, I’d say.

Healy, Best, Furlong, Ryan & Toner as the front five makes sense particularly with Beirne and Henderson out.
POM at 6 unless he’s still got some rib niggle
With Leavy injured, the choices at 7 are SOB or vdF or Murphy - vdF has the form
Stander at 8
Murray and Sexton at 9 & 10
Schmidt has the option of Henshaw & Ringrose as a Leinster pairing or putting Aki at 12. Difficult to guess this one but Aki has better form with Henshaw only back from injury.
Ringrose, if fit, should be 13 and the back three of Earls, Stockdale and Kearney is a safe enough bet, although, I wonder if Larmour might get a start at full-back as Kearney looked off-colour in the Leinster v Scarlets match and missed a couple of critical tackles.

Replacements: Cronin or Scannell to replace Best
McGrath and Porter as the props, and Dillane as lock since he was first selected over Roux.
SOB or Murphy are utility backrowers, I’d go with SOB.
Cooney, Carbery as the replacement half-backs.
23 shirt - Larmour, Conway can cover the back-three, or Addison can play midfield and full-back.

Pot Hale wrote: I wonder if Larmour might get a start at full-back as Kearney looked off-colour in the Leinster v Scarlets match and missed a couple of critical tackles.

Just ticking over.  He was just going through the motions.  Consciously or subconsciously avoiding being injured.  By the time England come, and if he's there at 15 - it'll be all high alert, nostrils snorting, tightly strung general stuff.

Now he still might prove Poopie and lose the game for us   ... but he'll be a different animal in temperament at International.

Last year, at about this time, I thought and I said Ireland should go all the way...full Slam.  Being miserly I didn't put any money on it!  Damn!
I looked at the squad and they just looked quality in all areas and I didn't see any other side having enough to knock them off their stride.  

This year, even though Irish Provinces are doing quite well in Europe, I think the fury has come down a notch.  I hope I'm seeing something designed - a cooling off of intensity before the WC.  But whatever it is, it leaves me thinking that this will be a much tougher Six Nations to win IF they function below top speed performance.

Any side except Italy could genuinely beat us this year.  England have a great chance of just bringing too much rage and punch for us to cope with in the first game.  They have the ammo and all it requires is enough of a purple patch or two and enough accuracy when those purple patches come.

But Scotland, France and Wales will be raging to teach us a lesson too.

So, despite that reality of me thinking this will be a much more competitive year in 6N, what quality does Ireland still have to fend off those ambitious goals in the opposition?

If we get a good 3rd, feeling we were not giving the championship full intensity, then I'd be reasonably okay.  We should have the latent quality not to go below 3rd.  4th would be a absolute disaster. Anything higher will be delightful.  If we win the thing, I don't see a Slam.

Fly, I'm disappointed in you.

We will dominate all before us.
The English will bring fire and fury but we shall smite them.
The Scott's will bring pace, but will shall not fail.
The Italians will bring noise, but we will silence them
The french will bring Parisian style, but we shall be unmoved.
The Welsh they will bring the sternest of all tests, but we will prevail.

Even the most partisan of commentators will acknowledge we are the most well oiled, of all rugby machines.



But I spose' it could all go right tits up

Lovely....................... me spirits have risen again, carpet ............... or is that just my whiskey glass getting refilled?

SecretFly wrote:Last year, at about this time, I thought and I said Ireland should go all the way...full Slam.  Being miserly I didn't put any money on it!  Damn!
I looked at the squad and they just looked quality in all areas and I didn't see any other side having enough to knock them off their stride.  

This year, even though Irish Provinces are doing quite well in Europe, I think the fury has come down a notch.  I hope I'm seeing something designed - a cooling off of intensity before the WC.  But whatever it is, it leaves me thinking that this will be a much tougher Six Nations to win IF they function below top speed performance.

Any side except Italy could genuinely beat us this year.  England have a great chance of just bringing too much rage and punch for us to cope with in the first game.  They have the ammo and all it requires is enough of a purple patch or two and enough accuracy when those purple patches come.

But Scotland, France and Wales will be raging to teach us a lesson too.

So, despite that reality of me thinking this will be a much more competitive year in 6N, what quality does Ireland still have to fend off those ambitious goals in the opposition?

If we get a good 3rd, feeling we were not giving the championship full intensity, then I'd be reasonably okay.  We should have the latent quality not to go below 3rd.  4th would be a absolute disaster.  Anything higher will be delightful.  If we win the thing, I don't see a Slam.

Oh relax. Ireland are the most in-form team in the world right now, and are strong favourites to win the Grand Slam. Only England have the potential to upset the Irish during this Six Nations and that's at best a 20% chance (if the English come with tactical cleverness and play as they did against the Kiwis).

The rest won't get close to Ireland (barring some red card or injury crisis).

I see what you're doing here

I don't know about England being the biggest challenge (please don't take us seriously so we catch you knapping)., I always think the Wales Ireland matches have the most needle I them? Perhaps Ireland should concentrate on Wales. In fact don't even bother training before the England match

I don't know about England being the biggest challenge (please don't take us seriously so we catch you knapping)., I always think the Wales Ireland matches have the most needle I them? Perhaps Ireland should concentrate on Wales.  In fact don't even bother training before the England match

Is saying it twice some kind of Kara-like hypnosis thing?

Dont bother training for England, don’t bother training for, dont bother training, don’t bother, dont....zzzzz

Eddie announces his team (from their Portuguese base according to Telegraph) at 11:30 on Thursday.

If they are still in Portugal I guess this means he will not be releasing unwanted players tonight/tomorrow morning as he often does. It also makes me wonder when they are leaving and when they go to Dublin.

Apparently Ireland are also over there this week so we should be able to compare and contrast that prep and travel.

Ireland are like a well oiled machine.
England will be quite far from it due to players returning from injury, positions still up for grab etc,. So whilst Ireland can play for 80 mins...I don't think England are capable yet and will have hot moments and cold ones through the game.
That could be critical...

We do however move back to being able to provide a bench with real impact.

I think Schmidt will go with -

15 Addison
14 Earls
13 Ringrose
12 Aki
11 Stockdale
10 Carbury
9 Murray
8 Stander  
7 VDF
6 O'Mahoney
5 Ryan
4 Toner
3 Furlong
2 Best
1 Healy

McGrath, Cronin, Porter, Dillane, O'Brien, Cooney, Sexton, Henshaw

I think he'll give Kearney another week and assess either Addison or Larmour at 15. Likewise with Carbury at 10.

Apart from the Italy game is probably the last chance to experiment for Joe.

Talk of Schmidt training with bundi and ringrose in the centre and henshaw at 15.
Big gamble if that's his plan. When did this Robbie last play 15?

carpet baboon wrote:Talk of Schmidt training with bundi and ringrose in the centre and henshaw at 15.
Big gamble if that's his plan. When did this Robbie last play 15?

Are you in Portugal looking over the hedge??? Joe warned us about folks like you, carpet! Spying is one thing...but treason is inexcusable!

rodders wrote:

Apart from the Italy game is probably the last chance to experiment for Joe.

Plenty of time to experiment still. Damn f**king warm up games! By the time we're through with this bone crushing 6N, we might need a whole new squad. I'm okay for 9 or 10... I got pretensions of being a boss.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Apparently Ireland are also over there this week so we should be able to compare and contrast that prep and travel.

They left on Friday last.

carpet baboon wrote:Talk of Schmidt training with bundi and ringrose in the centre and henshaw at 15.
Big gamble if that's his plan. When did this Robbie last play 15?

I remember reading about that some months ago. That would be interesting but as you say, when he did last play there?

If Schmidt wants to put Robbie there then he's got his A grade reason for doing so! DO NOT QUESTION THE MIND OF A SUPREME BEING!!!

Well that does tell you on prep then pot! Ireland have by the sounds of it a week more in camp than England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We do however move back to being able to provide a bench with real impact.

I was going to say that we do however have some serious firepower back...regardless of match fitness etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We do however move back to being able to provide a bench with real impact.

I was going to say that we do however have some serious firepower back...regardless of match fitness etc.

The optimism coming from some England quarters sums up just how vital the Vunipola brothers are to this team.

Presuming that Jones goes for some continuity:

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Wilson 7.T Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Te'o 13.Slade 14.Daly 15.Brown

16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Williams 19.Launchbury 20.Shields 21.Robson 22.Ford 23.Tuilagi

There's debates to be had in several positions (locks, Wilson/Shields, centre and where Daly plays) but the most significant change there is Mako and especially Billy being back in the side. You could:

- Shuffle around Lawes, Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury depending on personal opinion but it wouldn't affect the side much.
- Quibble over Wilson, Shields or Robson at blindside. Personally I think Wilson has earnt a stint but again not a huge difference.
- Change centre partnerships, without Joseph back to full form and fitness I don't think changes available would make a wholesale difference.
- Discuss the merits of Brown at fullback, shoehorning Daly into the side, etc. Again lots of back three option with different merits but not a gulf between them.

If you take the Vunipola brothers out though that pack loses a huge amount of much needed experience, quality and ball carrying.

And Manu in the squad as well KC.

Shame Cockasaniga wasn't fit aswell...

GeordieFalcon wrote:And Manu in the squad as well KC.

Shame Cockasaniga wasn't fit aswell...

What you want to do???? Marmalise us into Potato Mash?

Cokanasiga and Shields took full part in training today. Clifford sent home after suffering a head knock in training.

I said earlier that for the first time Eddie has a squad that really allows different tactics to be employed. Should we go for the biggest lumps or more guile. I think we've played better with two play makers personally but our defense last year was shredded far too often. It will be a slug fest with a back line of farrell, teo, manu, big Joe, may and brown with an obvious game plan I don't think we would win against ireland. A fine balance therefore but how that is achieved we have to trust Eddie's experience I guess. Excited now trying to keep on the level and not allow myself to get too worked up!

"There's debates to be had in several positions (locks, Wilson/Shields, centre and where Daly plays) but the most significant change there is Mako and especially Billy being back in the side. You could:

"Shuffle around Lawes, Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury depending on personal opinion but it wouldn't affect the side much.
- Quibble over Wilson, Shields or Robson at blindside. Personally I think Wilson has earnt a stint but again not a huge difference.
- Change centre partnerships, without Joseph back to full form and fitness I don't think changes available would make a wholesale difference.
- Discuss the merits of Brown at fullback, shoehorning Daly into the side, etc. Again lots of back three option with different merits but not a gulf between them."

King_Carlos, I know EJ talked about playing Nowell as a 7, but I don't thin Robson is really of the right build, 30 years ago possibly. Personally I would fit Robshaw into that slot.

Shame Clifford got that head knock and is ruled out. I was hoping to see him on the bench.

I guess we'll have
Shields/Wilson (I think EJ will pick Shields)
Curry
Vunipola

What does Shields bring? Whats his usp?

LondonTiger wrote:Cokanasiga and Shields took full part in training today. Clifford sent home after suffering a head knock in training.

Clifford just has 0 luck