6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

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6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

England starting XV (485 caps)

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

Finishers (206 caps)

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Close decision collapse. Both world class.

BamBam wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Surprised I didn't get the call up. Congrats to Rodders all the same.

I championed your cause, sorry pal

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is class. It's going to take some player to force him out of the team. Ironically from what Ford has said it's Farrell who helps his game, able.to spot the chance and help direct Ford direct the play that way.

I cant say I blame you for liking him, fans tend to like the passionate players. There has been lots of talk over here about how only 1 or 2 of Englands players would make the England team. However, I wouldn't be surprised if England fans feel the same way about our team.

My composite side (of those I expect to line up this weekend)

1. Mako
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. VDF
8. Billy
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Ringrose
14. Stockdale
15. Daly

7 English, 8 Irish - pretty even!

In fact, chuck Hogg in at full back and there's the Lions team if playing this year

My combined side would be
McGrath George furlong
Itoje Launchbury
POM VDF
Vunipola
Murray Sefton
May Farrell Ringrose Stockdale and don't know at 15.
Vunipola best sinckler Ryan SOB Robson Ford Tuilagi.
I've missed injured players that I know of off.

Fair enough, more than I thought. I like Launchbury but I wouldn't leave Ryan out of any side. Biased.

Rugby Fan wrote:In short, Farrell didn't establish his international reputation through an armchair ride with a dominant England pack. That's revisionist rugby history.

Rugby Fan wrote:Owen Farrell started his career in a back line operating behind a pack which included Mauritz Botha, Tom Palmer and Phil Dowson.

Riiiight, because all 3 are absolute stalwarts of English rugby who were the bedrock of the pack for years, weren't they!?

Bar the RWC 2015 (and even then they were still pretty strong), and the odd game against NZ, Ireland or SA, I can't think of a time where England's pack has been outmuscled in the last 20 years. Perhaps the bad years from 05-10 have a few games where they got dominated, but nothing jumps out. Outskilled and out-thought, yes. Tactically beaten, also yes. And perhaps some accuracy issues in the set-piece at times, but that is sort of covered in the previous. But by and large, England almost always produce a platform of parity or dominance. It's literally the model of English rugby and, bar some tactical tinkering. That's not the contentious statement you think it is.

Farrell has had an incredibly privileged position as a 10. Not many have the kind of platform he does for both club and country for so long - and not many play for teams that have won so much, either, particularly at club level. He's obviously contributed to that, but he's also benefited from it. I simply think it would be interesting to see how he fared for present day Leicester, say.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is class. It's going to take some player to force him out of the team. Ironically from what Ford has said it's Farrell who helps his game, able.to spot the chance and help direct Ford direct the play that way.

I cant say I blame you for liking him, fans tend to like the passionate players. There has been lots of talk over here about how only 1 or 2 English players would make the England team. However, I wouldn't be surprised if England fans feel the same way about our team.

Corrected - I am sure this is what you meant.

miaow wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:In short, Farrell didn't establish his international reputation through an armchair ride with a dominant England pack. That's revisionist rugby history.

Rugby Fan wrote:Owen Farrell started his career in a back line operating behind a pack which included Mauritz Botha, Tom Palmer and Phil Dowson.

Riiiight, because all 3 are absolute stalwarts of English rugby who were the bedrock of the pack for years, weren't they!?

Bar the RWC 2015 (and even then they were still pretty strong), and the odd game against NZ, Ireland or SA, I can't think of a time where England's pack has been outmuscled in the last 20 years. Perhaps the bad years from 05-10 have a few games where they got dominated, but nothing jumps out. Outskilled and out-thought, yes. Tactically beaten, also yes. And perhaps some accuracy issues in the set-piece at times, but that is sort of covered in the previous. But by and large, England almost always produce a platform of parity or dominance. It's literally the model of English rugby and, bar some tactical tinkering. That's not the contentious statement you think it is.

Farrell has had an incredibly privileged position as a 10. Not many have the kind of platform he does for both club and country for so long - and not many play for teams that have won so much, either, particularly at club level. He's obviously contributed to that, but he's also benefited from it. I simply think it would be interesting to see how he fared for present day Leicester, say.

Yes it has been a shock being outmuscled in the forwards by Ireland in particular. I would point out that Farrell has mainly played at 12 for England (and Lions) in the last few years, except for when Ford has been ditched. Not so easy to hide behind the pack there.

More of a follower than poster usually but always gets the excitement levels up this time of year.
By 6 on Saturday I'll have a better idea of whether Ireland can make that elusive semi-final, or even go a little further..... Or just fall flat on their face.

That said will there be a predictions forum soon? Always good to see how others think their team will do.

If I were to start with the England team and then take players who would clearly improve it I would take:

Furlong, POM, VDF, Murray, Sexton (but not if Murray was injured) and Stockdale.

However if I was Irish I would probably only take:

Billy, May and maybe Itoje.


If I were to pick my composite team from those in the current squads I would go:

Healy, George, Furlong, Ryan, Itoje, POM, VDF, Billy, Murray, Sexton, Stockdale, Henshaw, Ringrose, May, Kearney

LondonTiger wrote:If I were to start with the England team and then take players who would clearly improve it I would take:

Furlong, POM, VDF, Murray, Sexton (but not if Murray was injured) and Stockdale.

However if I was Irish I would probably only take:

Billy, May and maybe Itoje.


If I were to pick my composite team from those in the current squads I would go:

Healy, George, Furlong, Ryan, Itoje, POM, VDF, Billy, Murray, Sexton, Stockdale, Henshaw, Ringrose, May, Kearney

Yeah for me it would be May definitely and Billy V at his best, not Billy V (afraid to break his arm again). I definitely wouldn't want 2018 Itoje, maybe 2017 Itoje but it would be hard to drop Toner or Ryan.

AI Itoje was better than 6Ns version. Against Glasgow the other week he was excellent, certainly at 2017 levels, but that is a clear notch below international intensity.

LondonTiger wrote:AI Itoje was better than 6Ns version. Against Glasgow the other week he was excellent, certainly at 2017 levels, but that is a clear notch below international intensity.

Yeah probably, I recently re-watched the Ireland v England game in full in Twickers last year, my god Itoje was weak but he is a good player and I think he probably will be much better on Saturday.

Id imagine the whole England pack will be better and will probably look to beat Ireland up which probably isn't a bad tactic.

BamBam wrote:
My composite side (of those I expect to line up this weekend)

1. Mako
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. VDF
8. Billy
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Ringrose
14. Stockdale
15. Daly

7 English, 8 Irish - pretty even!

In fact, chuck Hogg in at full back and there's the Lions team if playing this year

Thinking about it again, outside of Hogg (definitely) and Tipuric (possibly), there isn't a player in the rest of the tournament I would definitely say would improve that composite side barring a few close calls between the England / Irish players (Healy and Launchbury mainly)

Collapse2005 wrote:There has been lots of talk over here about how only 1 or 2 of Englands players would make the England team. However, I wouldn't be surprised if England fans feel the same way about our team.

To be frank, I'm not sure rugby fans are that good at making these kinds of decisions. It was common to hear from New Zealand supporters that they didn't rate anyone who hadn't played on a winning team against them. I used to point out that Ian Botham in his pomp had a miserable record against the West Indies but that didn't stop anyone thinking he was one of the best players in the world. Somehow, we aren't as generous in our assessments of rugby players who do well in losing causes.

When your own team is winning, and winning well, it's hard to think too many players from opposition teams can really add much. That's especially true in the modern game, when the way the players work in defensive and attacking systems with each other, seems so much more important than before.

I'd rather have English players than Irish players simply because I'm invested in them. That doesn't stop me admiring, and being invested in Irish players. There's a separate thread where one forum regular wonders why Cian Healy is selected by Schmidt. A few years ago, I didn't have a lot of time for him either, but, somehow, his comeback story has really grabbed me, so I find myself warmer to him, than I am to a splendid player like James Ryan.

Other guys that would push for a place:

Liam Williams - was awesome on the Lions tour
Gareth Davies - Probably the second best 9 after Murray
Hogg - one of the best 15s in world rugby
Guiardo - Possibly the best hooker in the 6 nations

Long shot:
Matteo Minozzi - scored 4 tries in 5 games in the 6 nations
Russell - in form at the moment

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:There has been lots of talk over here about how only 1 or 2 of Englands players would make the England team. However, I wouldn't be surprised if England fans feel the same way about our team.

To be frank, I'm not sure rugby fans are that good at making these kinds of decisions. It was common to hear from New Zealand supporters that they didn't rate anyone who hadn't played on a winning team against them. I used to point out that Ian Botham in his pomp had a miserable record against the West Indies but that didn't stop anyone thinking he was one of the best players in the world. Somehow, we aren't as generous in our assessments of rugby players who do well in losing causes.

When your own team is winning, and winning well, it's hard to think too many players from opposition teams can really add much. That's especially true in the modern game, when the way the players work in defensive and attacking systems with each other, seems so much more important than before.

I'd rather have English players than Irish players simply because I'm invested in them. That doesn't stop me admiring, and being invested in Irish players. There's a separate thread where one forum regular wonders why Cian Healy is selected by Schmidt. A few years ago, I didn't have a lot of time for him either, but, somehow, his comeback story has really grabbed me, so I find myself warmer to him, than I am to a splendid player like James Ryan.

Much of a muchness between Healy and McGrath IMO.

Collapse2005 wrote:Other guys that would push for a place:

Liam Williams - was awesome on the Lions tour
Gareth Davies - Probably the second best 9 after Murray
Hogg - one of the best 15s in world rugby
Guiardo - Possibly the best hooker in the 6 nations

Long shot:
Matteo Minozzi - scored 4 tries in 5 games in the 6 nations
Russell - in form at the moment

Looking at the Welsh threads many there would not view Davies as the second best in Wales
Guirado is an outstanding player except for his throwing at lineout. In that area he makes Tom Youngs (or Rory Best ) look world class.

Collapse2005 wrote:Other guys that would push for a place:

Liam Williams - was awesome on the Lions tour
Gareth Davies - Probably the second best 9 after Murray
Hogg - one of the best 15s in world rugby
Guiardo - Possibly the best hooker in the 6 nations

Long shot:
Matteo Minozzi - scored 4 tries in 5 games in the 6 nations
Russell - in form at the moment

Hogg a better FB than Williams, May and Stockdale better wingers
Reading the Welsh thread, they aren'te even positive about Davies starting for them
Hogg - agreed
Guirado - yes, had forgotten about him, potentially

Wouldn't have either long shot

Said it before rugby fan but I think a lot of people are swung by what commentators say as well. If you're hearing abc about a player 8 weeks in a row some start to believe it. That can translate to favouring players when moving from a league environment to internationals etc.
Vice versa commentators can annoy people and they end up in knots justifying their perspective on players.

LondonTiger wrote:Looking at the Welsh threads many there would not view Davies as the second best in Wales
Guirado is an outstanding player except for his throwing at lineout. In that area he makes Tom Youngs (or Rory Best ) look world class.

Not sure about that. There's a few bitter Welsh posters on here who reside in, or at least identify with, the east, so have a chip on their shoulders about anything coming from the west, but if you're discounting Rhys Webb (who would be in with a shot of challenging Murray depending on gameplan, in my opinion, as was the case with the Lions) then he's comfortably top 2, and probably still first choice. A very dangerous, but flawed player, is Gareth Davies. A bit like a better version of Danny Care - when he's good, he's really good, and you want him to play all the time. When he's not...

Agree regarding Guirado. Ken Owens is definitely one of the best hookers in the north. Underrated by many outside Wales I believe due to injuries and missing selections. Deserved to play for the Lions (though nearly went down in history for the wrong reasons). Other Welsh players I'd say are in with a shout: AWJ, Tipuric, Rob Evans (genuinely Mako's equal in many respects), JD2 (surely...), North. Liam Williams and Faletau are right up there.

For Scotland, I'd look at Johnny Gray, Seymour, maybe Maitland, at a stretch Huw Jones. McInally on form, Watson and Barclay outside bets (and injured).

Also, I'd take Beirne over Itoje nine times out of ten.

Webb isn't even in the Wales squad.

Because he's unavailable, not because he's not good enough. If you want to be rigidly strict with selection rules in this hypothetical team, by all means, go ahead.

miaow wrote:Because he's unavailable, not because he's not good enough. If you want to be rigidly strict with selection rules in this hypothetical team, by all means, go ahead.

If you make yourself unavailable by chasing coin you make yourself not good enough in my view. Toulon are also weak at the moment so wasn't a very ambitious move. Secondly Toulon have signed Serin so chances are Webb will be playing a back up role in the future.

Both Teo & Shields are out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47048149

Farrell to start at 12? England's Kiwis are dropping like flies.

Cokanasiga also out. Indication is tuilagi and slade start and imagine Brown returns at full back with Daly back to the wing. Wilson starts with Hughes on the bench which would make me worry about cover at 7. Earl is too green surely.?

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:Because he's unavailable, not because he's not good enough. If you want to be rigidly strict with selection rules in this hypothetical team, by all means, go ahead.

If you make yourself unavailable by chasing coin you make yourself not good enough in my view. Toulon are also weak at the moment so wasn't a very ambitious move. Secondly Toulon have signed Serin so chances are Webb will be playing a back up role in the future.

Painful reading. Disagree with each and every point you've made there.

1. Carl Hayman (pick any other player as well) didn't become sheet by leaving NZ
2. At time of leaving, Ospreys had been dire for a while, Toulon one of Europe's best teams. Very good career move on paper. Doubt the demise will be permanet either.
3. Highly doubt it, more to do with Boudjellal's skittish desires/deep pockets - hates players being injured, wants his money's worth from players, and Webb's probably angling for a short term move back to Wales for the RWC. Even if he stays at Toulon, and even if he doesn't flourish, it's hardly an damning indictment - Sexton struggled at Racing after all, yet I'd guarantee most would consider him the best 10 in the north, if not the world, then and now.

Top to bottom, in all honesty collapse, those are some atrocious opinions.

Meh, whatever. Webb isn't good enough, deal with it.

Webb has confirmed he isn't moving back and Sexton plays for Leinster now not Racing.

Calls people's opinions atrocious yet believes AWJ and Maitland could make a combined 6N side

Collapse2005 wrote:Meh, whatever. Webb isn't good enough, deal with it.

For what? He was #22 for the Lions. Genuinely, what's he not good enough for...!?!

BamBam wrote:Calls people's opinions atrocious yet believes AWJ and Maitland could make a combined 6N side

Yeah, what a ridiculous opinion...

Anyway, bad news for England. I thought they'd go with the three pronged Anglo-Pacifc Islanders attack. Perhaps we'll see that in the RWC instead.

The idea of Tuilagi and Slade as a centre pairing is really dangerous. Has the potential to be very good, but what an arena to try it in. Big game for Slade to step up and perform.

Yeah.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah.

Quality input 7.5. Probably your best yet.

The 25 players retained by Jones:

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).
 
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Meh, whatever. Webb isn't good enough, deal with it.

For what? He was #22 for the Lions. Genuinely, what's he not good enough for...!?!

Pretty soon he wont even be good enough to make the Toulon (bottom of French league) first 15.

Shame the irritating pussycat is trying to ruin a perfectly good thread

What do we think, is Tuilagi going to start, or Eddie going to throw a bit of a curve ball by putting Daly in at 13?

Uh huh miaow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37OWL7AzvHo

I think it's tuilagi and slade bit they 'll be swapping between 12 and 13. I am worried if curry has to go off.

We are in the position again where there is no-one in the squad who plays 12 for their club. If it is to be Manu/Slade I wonder which shirts they will wear.

As to the pack, Mitchell was talking up Lawes as an option at 6. I hope not, but would not be surprised.

Maybe thats why Lawes has bulked up so much. Would be wierd to see Tuilagi start again.

LondonTiger wrote:The 25 players retained by Jones:

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).
 
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

That's the best 25 we've had available for a long long time, well on paper anyway. Damn shame Underhill is injured, I was really looking forward to seeing the holy grail of back rows in 6. Wilson 7. Underhill 8. Vunipola.....would have been brutal!

Not seeing the clamour for Slade personally, still don't think he's quite up to it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 12.Manu 13.Slade but them playing the other way round. Similar to the circus with Lawes and Itoje playing the other way round to their shirt numbers.

Hughes presumably being the bench back row forward is interesting. If Curry were injured early then it would either be a case of moving a lock across or 6.Hughes 7.Wilson 8.Vunipola. Either way it's out of balance.

lostinwales wrote:Greenwood. If there was one player I could choose to bring back from past England teams he'd be the one. More so even than Hill, JW, JR or Martin Johnson.

Hugely underrated and a player England have never truly replaced. It's hard to think of anyone, from any nation, who could match his combination of size, skill and rugby nous. Especially not while looking quite so ungainly.

king_carlos wrote:Hughes presumably being the bench back row forward is interesting. If Curry were injured early then it would either be a case of moving a lock across or 6.Hughes 7.Wilson 8.Vunipola. Either way it's out of balance.

I'm not sure which of the locks will drop out of the 23 (not saying I'd agree with it but I have a feeling it might be Joe Launchbury), but if Curry was to go off early doors then if he's not starting there already (hope not) I imagine Lawes would come on at or move to 6 before either Itoje or Hughes. Jones has picked him there enough times in the past, and as recently as the last AI's.

B91212 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Hughes presumably being the bench back row forward is interesting. If Curry were injured early then it would either be a case of moving a lock across or 6.Hughes 7.Wilson 8.Vunipola. Either way it's out of balance.

I'm not sure which of the locks will drop out of the 23 (not saying I'd agree with it but I have a feeling it might be Joe Launchbury), but if Curry was to go off early doors then if he's not starting there already (hope not) I imagine Lawes would come on at or move to 6 before either Itoje or Hughes. Jones has picked him there enough times in the past, and as recently as the last AI's.

Ireland's lineout could be a deciding factor in the locks England select. Toner is just so good there before you even add in Ryan and POM.

It's difficult to call though. Kruis/Itoje together is a club partnership with George. Lawes is the senior man in the row now though so I think he will start. I can't see Lawes or Itoje missing out on the 23 so it will likely be between Kruis and Launchbury.

Toner is the best lineout forward in the world for me in defence and attack. Countering him is a big obstacle in beating this Ireland side.

I would not be completely surprised to see all 4 locks in the 23