Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it? I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

[Diggers]

On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it?  I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

It’s a fair point. It’s primary, pretty easy to skill up to know more than they do, which I did. I just want to feel reasonably accomplished, if not fluent. Already able too teach them a lot more by including Spanish in our daily routines.
Thing with primary is you need to know a reasonable amount about quite a lot, the main focus though is literacy and maths, which can be reasonably complex for my lot who are Year 5.

[super_realist]

Fair enough Diggers.

I learnt a language pretty much by teaching myself, can pretty much think in it, and at the points when I was really good I was dreaming in it.

Good idea to read newspapers, books, try to translate songs you're listening to into Spanish etc.

My biggest problem is speaking to native speakers as they're just too bloody quick at speaking it and you feel like all you've learned counts for nothing.

[Diggers]

Yep, use songs a lot in teaching for routines of the day. Agree they speak seriously quickly, I guess fluency would only come with living there, haven't ruled out that possibility at an International School...though Brexit would probably make it significantly tougher to do that.

[super_realist]

Worth a bash Diggers. I don't believe Brexit will make it that much harder though, certainly not as tough for example as going to work in America where the only real option is being sponsored by an employer. In fact I don't even think that it will be as tough as getting a visa to work in Australia, Canada or NZ, but certainly more of a pain than now.

[McLaren]

Super

To tie up two of your favorite subjects, if the men shouting from the crowd at Sterling didn't use a traditionally racist word is it still racism?

[navyblueshorts]

Super

To tie up two of your favorite subjects, if the men shouting from the crowd at Sterling didn't use a traditionally racist word is it still racism?

[super_realist]

Super

To tie up two of your favorite subjects, if the men shouting from the crowd at Sterling didn't use a traditionally racist word is it still racism?

What on earth are you on about Mac? I know you have a tiny vocabulary and a limited education but racism isn't defined by the words used. I haven't seen the incident in question, nor have I heard or read what they've reportedly said to Sterling. However, should a black player be verbally abused by a white fan, i.e. "you useless w*nker" or "you run like Duncan Norvelle" clearly that is not racist, although I would imagine you'd see anything said against him as having racist undertones.

Just goes to show how full of scum football still is, how immature the fans can be, how sad their lives are that they have to live it vicariously through people on a football pitch playing against another team supported by sad morons.

It also happened at Motherwell at the weekend, but as Mac doesn't know who the player involved was, he's far less concerned about the incident because he wouldn't be seen as so right on to comment on an SPL match.

[JAS]

Worth a bash Diggers. I don't believe Brexit will make it that much harder though, certainly not as tough for example as going to work in America where the only real option is being sponsored by an employer. In fact I don't even think that it will be as tough as getting a visa to work in Australia, Canada or NZ, but certainly more of a pain than now.

Brexit? What Brexit? Anybody else think the most likely outcome is now a complete abandonment?

[Davie]

I hope you're right JAS although that would give the Brexiteers even more to moan about

[JAS]

I hope you're right JAS although that would give the Brexiteers even more to moan about

Indeed, and while I myself favoured leave (for reasons previously stated) it wouldn’t really faze me if it was all reversed. What I imagine will be quite spectacular though would be the combustible reaction of the “Out means out” “ let’s take back control” baying mob, I honestly think most of them should stay off the internet for a few months to avoid incriminating themselves!!

[Diggers]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this or no deal. Thing is how do you describe no deal, you still have to address what it means. WTO rules, OK, we can explain that. Border control...hmm, now what about the Irish border. Have the be a hard border...but we can’t have that...that’s (one of the many) reasons May’s deal won’t work.
So how does no deal exist as an option without tearing up the GFA? Politicians can’t lie about that one or suggest it’ll all turn out OK and it’s all part of Project Fear that we say it’s an issue.

[Davie]

I would feel that if there was another in/out referendum that the remainers would win - but as JAS says, the backlash would be unbelievable

[Diggers]

If we go be deal and end up with an Irish border, the backlash will be unbelievable. The only deal that will get through Parliament is probably a very soft Brexit...leavers will day it’s a con and worse than remaining...they’d be right...cue backlash.
If you get a backlash whatever then you may as well take the best option, which is remain.

[dynamark]

I think the fundamental problem is that a large majority of our MPs all sides are remainers .
Irish issue Digs my understanding is that the Belfast agreement has a legal agreement binding for free trade and movement between north and south.That is the sticky bit and should have been the focus from the start.No problem with rules and courts etc but a big problem with trade(if tariffs apply)and free movement. two separate administrations.I would have thought the trade issue could be dealt with by admin at the point of departure of goods , people is harder but would have to be the Irish sea type of border.And the Irish north and south would have to adjust somewhat.

[Diggers]

If they could have dealt with the trade through admin they would have Dyna, they wouldn’t be putting themselves through all this grief for no reason. And people is a massive problem, you just couldn’t have a open border, there would have to be some form of checks.
And that’s only the detail of the agreement, what’s far more important is the spirit of the agreement, that’s the reason neither the EU (specifically Ireland) or the UK will risk touching it.

[beninho]

Best case is to hold article 50, and call a general election. Let all sides put out their plans, and see who wins. If May fights it on her terms and gets a government she can.put through what she wants.

[Diggers]

Can’t agree a general election solves anything, it’s too much of a cross party issue. Not even sure what mandate they could put together to run on.

[pedro]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this  or no deal.

Sounds like the most logical to me.

[Diggers]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this  or no deal.

Sounds like the most logical to me.

Have three options, exclude the best (which would probably win). Sounds retarded to me.

[pedro]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this  or no deal.

Sounds like the most logical to me.

Have three options, exclude the best (which would probably win). Sounds retarded to me.

Do you mean that the third option is remain?

[JAS]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

[Diggers]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this  or no deal.

Sounds like the most logical to me.

Have three options, exclude the best (which would probably win). Sounds retarded to me.

Do you mean that the third option is remain?

Based on knowing what leave now means, or more accurately doesn’t mean, absolutely.

[pedro]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this  or no deal.

Sounds like the most logical to me.

Have three options, exclude the best (which would probably win). Sounds retarded to me.

Do you mean that the third option is remain?

Based on knowing what leave now means, or more accurately doesn’t mean, absolutely.

I agree it would be the best - but I also think it would be undemocratic to overrrule the original binary referendum (which I of course know was stupid from the beginning, but that's also democracy).

It'd be the same as demanding a divorce from your wife, but backtgrack when the court tells you she gets to keep the house, car and kids.

[Diggers]

Another rumour is a referendum but with no remain option, basically this  or no deal.

Sounds like the most logical to me.

Have three options, exclude the best (which would probably win). Sounds retarded to me.

Do you mean that the third option is remain?

Based on knowing what leave now means, or more accurately doesn’t mean, absolutely.

I agree it would be the best - but I also think it would be undemocratic to overrrule the original binary referendum (which I of course know was stupid from the beginning, but that's also democracy).

It'd be the same as demanding a divorce from your wife, but backtgrack when the court tells you she gets to keep the house, car and kids.

It's not the same though as their are guidelines in place as to what will happen in a divorce. We didn't have that, we had a pack of lies.
To me, it's like saying the remainers had won, but 2 years later the EU said we had to give up our veto and join the Euro. Leavers would be screaming for another referendum, quite rightly. That to me is a much closer analogy for where we are now.

[pedro]

I wouldn't say that telling lies and fooling the gullible (which is probably what we're talking about) is exactly the same. But maybe our religious posters can give their two cents on this.

[Diggers]

I think there were an awful lot of gullible people taken in by what was said. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say outright lies were told (on both sides for sure).
Really don't have a clue where we end up now. Will the EU cave a bit in fear of no deal, will they stand firm hoping for no Brexit. Can Parliament even come close to agreeing anything (seems highly unlikely).

[McLaren]

The issue is that England has become a nation proud of anti intellectualism.

[kwinigolfer]

The issue is that England has become a nation proud of anti intellectualism.

No, That's the USA.

[navyblueshorts]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

[navyblueshorts]

The issue is that England has become a nation proud of anti intellectualism.

No, That's the USA.

OK, but we're the USA's lapdog as usual and following along quite nicely.

[Diggers]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

[JAS]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

Not forgetting as well that the first one was infact ‘advisory’. Although this was never really emphasised, there was no compunction on parliament to implement. However to emphasise that now wouldn’t even start to placate the strident leave fraternity. It’s like every aspect of it that you look at since Cameron first trotted out the idea has been a complete catalogue of how not to govern.

[navyblueshorts]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

That's fine. I accept you have a different view. I disagree though. Certainly, you can't simply ask for another one because you didn't like the last one, even before it's been enacted. Once it's been enacted, by all means have another one if it's schidt, which in all likelihood it will be. There's been nothing upheld in the Courts about the legality of the referendum itself or the campaigning etc either.

Edit: actually, they could have avoided all this schidt by highlighting, early on, that the referendum was advisory only; which it was. We're too late for that now though.

[navyblueshorts]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

Not forgetting as well that the first one was infact ‘advisory’. Although this was never really emphasised, there was no compunction on parliament to implement. However to emphasise that now wouldn’t even start to placate the strident leave fraternity. It’s like every aspect of it that you look at since Cameron first trotted out the idea has been a complete catalogue of how not to govern.

I should have read on, before I posted. Spot on.

[Diggers]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

Not forgetting as well that the first one was infact ‘advisory’. Although this was never really emphasised, there was no compunction on parliament to implement. However to emphasise that now wouldn’t even start to placate the strident leave fraternity. It’s like every aspect of it that you look at since Cameron first trotted out the idea has been a complete catalogue of how not to govern.

I should have read on, before I posted. Spot on.

What do people actually think leave voters will do in the event of another referendum? Complain? Moaning will end, even I'd have stopped moaning if some form of reasonable Brexit deal went through. Any inclination to get onto the streets and protest seems to come from the (younger?) remain voters, look at the huge march a while back. A leave betrayal protest in London was minuscule in comparison.
So do people think we are talking riots in the streets? Just cant see it myself, the majority of the sort of people who will be angry aren't your riot type people. So what exactly is the chaos a second referendum would cause, what would people do, what would the backlash be? The country isn't going to fall apart, they might decide not to engage in politics for a while, they might shout louder, probably for a third referendum, and maybe that would come.

[navyblueshorts]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

Not forgetting as well that the first one was infact ‘advisory’. Although this was never really emphasised, there was no compunction on parliament to implement. However to emphasise that now wouldn’t even start to placate the strident leave fraternity. It’s like every aspect of it that you look at since Cameron first trotted out the idea has been a complete catalogue of how not to govern.

I should have read on, before I posted. Spot on.

What do people actually think leave voters will do in the event of another referendum? Complain? Moaning will end, even I'd have stopped moaning if some form of reasonable Brexit deal went through. Any inclination to get onto the streets and protest seems to come from the (younger?) remain voters, look at the huge march a while back. A leave betrayal protest in London was minuscule in comparison.
So do people think we are talking riots in the streets? Just cant see it myself, the majority of the sort of people who will be angry aren't your riot type people. So what exactly is the chaos a second referendum would cause, what would people do, what would the backlash be? The country isn't going to fall apart, they might decide not to engage in politics for a while, they might shout louder, probably for a third referendum, and maybe that would come.
 

Probably all true, but at the moment we're leaving so I'd be wary of drawing conclusions on who's protesting and how large a group they are. I have no idea what the reaction would/will be if the Government renege on the referendum outcome, but it would stink. It's not the fault of those that want out if the referendum wasn't thought through properly and I have zero sympathy really with those that now think they voted the wrong way. They were TOLD leaving would be a complete f-up, but no, they didn't want to hear about any expert opinion and were happy to lap up the nonsense peddled. If you believe in democracy, the only outcome should be to enact the outcome of the referendum. They COULD have reminded all of us it was advisory, but no, they were too dumb to even think about that, and now it's too late.

Cameron and those like Rees-Mogg etc should be strung up on Traitor's Gate. All this, for some childish, chuffing Tory in-fighting? Utterly, mind-bogglingly pathetic.

[Diggers]

Much as it pains me to say it, I now think the most logical option is to take a big 3 year step backwards, retract the whole thing, forget about it and move on.
My big gripe about the EU being undemocratic and there to fulfil the whims of the Bilderbergers is still true but in reality we’re still going to be subject of their whims whether we’re in or out. The things about the EU we don’t like and we’d like to change....we have a very slim chance of achieving if we’re in, absolutely no chance if we’re out.
Back in I’d like to see us fight to roll back a couple of steps of the intergration project and go with that.

Much of your post sums up what our MEPs etc should have been doing for the last 40 years or so. We never engaged properly, basically spat the dummy out and now we're FUBAR. To go against the referendum outcome would poison our politics for decades, much as I was, and am, a 'remainer'. Too many people think the current politicians are schidt as it is; renege on the referendum outcome and it'll be far worse.

Don't agree. All the politicians have really done is get to a stage the country is at as a whole...basically they can't agree. I don't see any big democratic issue about another referendum. There is no rule to say how often they should happen. The first one was so clearly flawed that you can argue a second one, with informed choice, is actually a more logical, democratic progression.
Especially if the alternative to remain looks like it's fast becoming a cliff edge leave. I keep hearing how that's not a big problem, usually told by the same people who said getting a great deal would be easy.

Not forgetting as well that the first one was infact ‘advisory’. Although this was never really emphasised, there was no compunction on parliament to implement. However to emphasise that now wouldn’t even start to placate the strident leave fraternity. It’s like every aspect of it that you look at since Cameron first trotted out the idea has been a complete catalogue of how not to govern.

I should have read on, before I posted. Spot on.

What do people actually think leave voters will do in the event of another referendum? Complain? Moaning will end, even I'd have stopped moaning if some form of reasonable Brexit deal went through. Any inclination to get onto the streets and protest seems to come from the (younger?) remain voters, look at the huge march a while back. A leave betrayal protest in London was minuscule in comparison.
So do people think we are talking riots in the streets? Just cant see it myself, the majority of the sort of people who will be angry aren't your riot type people. So what exactly is the chaos a second referendum would cause, what would people do, what would the backlash be? The country isn't going to fall apart, they might decide not to engage in politics for a while, they might shout louder, probably for a third referendum, and maybe that would come.
 

Probably all true, but at the moment we're leaving so I'd be wary of drawing conclusions on who's protesting and how large a group they are. I have no idea what the reaction would/will be if the Government renege on the referendum outcome, but it would stink. It's not the fault of those that want out if the referendum wasn't thought through properly and I have zero sympathy really with those that now think they voted the wrong way. They were TOLD leaving would be a complete f-up, but no, they didn't want to hear about any expert opinion and were happy to lap up the nonsense peddled. If you believe in democracy, the only outcome should be to enact the outcome of the referendum. They COULD have reminded all of us it was advisory, but no, they were too dumb to even think about that, and now it's too late.

Cameron and those like Rees-Mogg etc should be strung up on Traitor's Gate. All this, for some childish, chuffing Tory in-fighting? Utterly, mind-bogglingly pathetic.

I'll have to come down on the not believing in democracy side, I can't bring myself to countenance anything as wrong as leaving with no deal. It literally represents everything that I can't stand in a country, isolationism, small mindedness, no sense of a greater good. If I didn't have kids then maybe I'd be less concerned, but I think that following blindly a path you know will lead to crapiness, just because it might be the "right" thing to do (and I still don't agree that the original referendum stands up as a fair and reasonable test of opinion and I do believe you have to take into account likely current public opinion).
Can't dispute a word of your last sentences.

[dynamark]

I'm not anywhere near sure about a cliff edge or a crash out.
I am certain EU and back trade would continue there would be some fairly urgent sorting out done but it will happen .Why on earth wouldn't it.
I can get on a plane to Africa or Dubai no reason I will not be able to go to Spain maybe a few minutes extra at passport Ordered some bits today from France that will not change.Ireland and the Republic are two separate countries -last time I went I needed a passport at this end bit of local difficulty but nothing to cause serious bother. We have a separate currency thank goodness and that means we can deal with any adjustments.KIds will be fine if they make an effort and don't expect it to be a given.Dont worry

[Diggers]

Sorry, so many potential issues with the laissez faire leaver approach. Nothing that was meant that be straightforward has proved so. There is no precedent for a country like us running on WTO, and why anyone thinks we have proven ourselves to be a country who reacts quickly to resolve problems is beyond me, we are clearly awful.
And the simple fact for me, it’s a complete waste of time. I’ve never once in my life felt that the EU made my life harder, plenty of UK Govts have though.
Super asked the other day when the last decent govt was. Well, I’ll tell you one of the last decent things a govt did worthy of credit, the GFA, made possible by EU membership and the brilliant work of Mo Mowlan, a truly decent women (also was MP for my home town, Redcar).
What will a no deal get rid of, that same decent thing. I’d be gutted for my kids to live in a country that thought this kind of action was the right thing to do.

[kwinigolfer]

Bad days at the office this evening Digs, would have preferred your result to ours.

(One of my first gf's from Redcar - who knew?)

[Diggers]

Bad days at the office this evening Digs, would have preferred your result to ours.

(One of my first gf's from Redcar - who knew?)

Best thing to come out of Redcar...the Trunk Road

[Diggers]

Carnage this morning. You have to say Labour have played a good hand here, they were being pushed to table a vote of no confidence by the other opposition parties...which would have made them look like they were seeking political gain and causing disruption. Instead, they held on and let the Tories start tearing themselves apart. Smart move.

[navyblueshorts]

Carnage this morning. You have to say Labour have played a good hand here, they were being pushed to table a vote of no confidence by the other opposition parties...which would have made them look like they were seeking political gain and causing disruption. Instead, they held on and let the Tories start tearing themselves apart. Smart move.

If you happen to think that petty party politicking at this juncture is smart, yes. **** 'em all.

[Eyetoldyouso]

Carnage this morning. You have to say Labour have played a good hand here, they were being pushed to table a vote of no confidence by the other opposition parties...which would have made them look like they were seeking political gain and causing disruption. Instead, they held on and let the Tories start tearing themselves apart. Smart move.

Really??
At this point the Labour Party just comes across as spineless & gutless. If it believes that the government doesn't have the confidence of the House of Commons then it needs to do the honourable thing; grow a pair & table the motion.
I can only assume that it doesn't think it can win such a vote or is terrified at the prospect of doing so.

[Diggers]

Carnage this morning. You have to say Labour have played a good hand here, they were being pushed to table a vote of no confidence by the other opposition parties...which would have made them look like they were seeking political gain and causing disruption. Instead, they held on and let the Tories start tearing themselves apart. Smart move.

If you happen to think that petty party politicking at this juncture is smart, yes. **** 'em all.

Well, we keep hearing how incompetent Labour are as an opposition (how they could be more incompetent than this shower I do not know). I'm simply pointing out that this was a smart move, seems to me that regardless of the reasons we would rather our politicians were thinking strategically, who knows, that might have got us a better deal.

[Diggers]

Carnage this morning. You have to say Labour have played a good hand here, they were being pushed to table a vote of no confidence by the other opposition parties...which would have made them look like they were seeking political gain and causing disruption. Instead, they held on and let the Tories start tearing themselves apart. Smart move.

Really??
At this point the Labour Party just comes across as spineless & gutless. If it believes that the government doesn't have the confidence of the House of Commons then it needs to do the honourable thing; grow a pair & table the motion.
I can only assume that it doesn't think it can win such a vote or is terrified at the prospect of doing so.

You reckon. And what do you think the electorate...the people who matter in an election...think of politicians causing further obstructions to anything happening? Why attack your enemy when they are ripping themselves apart.

[JAS]

I think Diggers is spot on, the current political climate is an absolute chaotic mess. Had Corbyn jumped in before Mays own he’d have been accused of a cheap shot power grab and putting his own personal ambition above the country (mindnumbingly ironic trying to mimic a Daily Mail journo but then again they’re so Effie predictable it’s not that hard).
The thing is the arithmetic is still against him as the political wing of the UDA will always back to Tories in a no confidence vote (now there’s you’re proverbial flip flopping power grabbers, vote down a deal but back to party that conceived it to preserve their £1bn position).And people DARE to accuse Corbyn of naked opportunism, you couldn’t bloody make this up.

[navyblueshorts]

I think Diggers is spot on, the current political climate is an absolute chaotic mess. Had Corbyn jumped in before Mays own he’d have been accused of a cheap shot power grab and putting his own personal ambition above the country (mindnumbingly ironic trying to mimic a Daily Mail journo but then again they’re so Effie predictable it’s not that hard).
The thing is the arithmetic is still against him as the political wing of the UDA will always back to Tories in a no confidence vote (now there’s you’re proverbial flip flopping power grabbers, vote down a deal but back to party that conceived it to preserve their £1bn position).And people DARE to accuse Corbyn of naked opportunism, you couldn’t bloody make this up.

Opportunism or not; he's God-awful. This Country really is in a pickle...

[dynamark]

Frankly I would not let Corbyn or Macdonald run the corner shop and pray it never happens.
Cannot see May loosing this vote but 100 or so against may push her to walk away.
Interesting this morning an MP called Owen Patterson was talking about all the work they had done with experts on Irish customs and the border it seems it was well on the way to being doable and then May changed course.
Slightly off topic I called in at Stoke Park golf in Bucks this morning what a magnificent golf course and set uo just superb.Not sure they would let the likes of me join though.
Best employment figure for ages yesterday Digs

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