Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it? I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

[Diggers]

Dyna, I didn’t worry at all about being part of Europe, or the project Europe that in my 46 years experience of it impeded in my life in anyway whatsoever. I’d love to believe your laissez faire approach, sadly, I think you are utterly deluded.
Genuine question, for what you might gain, do you actually believe it’s been worth all of this grief? The wasted time and money and the fact that the divisions within the country are infinitely deeper than before the referendum.

[super_realist]

Mac, where do you stand on the odious, persecution complex, Rick from the young ones wannabe Owen Jones?

[Diggers]

Great sports writers are few and far between - so the end of an era with Hugh McIlvanney leaving the scene. Always looked forward to reading his stuff.

Aye, great shame. Found it very easy listening to documentaries he narrated.

Great career, seemed like a nice guy. Personally never enjoyed his writing at all, for me he regularly strayed into just giving a bit too much import to his opinions at the expense of the facts, especially in regard to boxing. Still, we can all be guilty of that.

[McLaren]

Dyson was Elon Musking before Elon was born.

[dynamark]

Super I have no idea how Jones gets any air or radio time odious is the correct term.
For me he sits alongside Alister Campbell and Sturgeon.
Digs I don't feel being EU members has hurt any of us greatly over your 46 years(wish I was that young) but we can have some things back under our control I'm thinking laws in the main but also a little more control over immigration,not paying in and thank goodness we didn't go with the euro.Im not seeing any great cost so far and I am confident in that arrangements will quickly be brought into place with a no deal but more likely EU will give a little and a deal will be done.

[super_realist]

Dyson was Elon Musking before Elon was born.

Musk is another plank we could do without. Wretched man.

[Diggers]

Super I have no idea how Jones gets any air or radio time odious is the correct term.
For me he sits alongside Alister Campbell and Sturgeon.
Digs I don't feel being EU members has hurt any of us greatly over your 46 years(wish I was that young) but we can have some things back under our control I'm thinking laws in the main but also a little more control over immigration,not paying in  and thank goodness we didn't go with the euro.Im not seeing any great cost so far and I am confident in that arrangements will quickly be brought into place with a no deal but more likely EU will give a little and a deal will be done.

Jones is no more odious than Rees Mogg or Johnson, far less so IMO. They get a lot of media time. Maybe it’s about balance?
The 46 years is how long we’ve been in, not my age, so we are the same on that one.
I get what you are saying you want back, as we know I don’t agree (even about the Euro) or about how easy it will be, so we may as well park that.
My question was, do you think it was worth it? If we’d had a remain vote for sure there would have been squabbling, but after a few months thinks would have been back to normal. Was winning the vote(bearing in mind most likely outcome is a weak deal or no deal) actually worth it?

[Diggers]

For me the most odious political/social commentator is Isabel Oakeshott. She is seriously scary in her views, definitely the rent a fascist mouthpiece.

[McLaren]

Mac, where do you stand on the odious, persecution complex, Rick from the young ones wannabe Owen Jones?

Sometimes he makes a good point but is too often embroiled in online squabbles. He is too loyal to JC for me to really agree with him on the bigger issues.

[Diggers]

Mac, where do you stand on the odious, persecution complex, Rick from the young ones wannabe Owen Jones?

Sometimes he makes a good point but is too often embroiled in online squabbles. He is too loyal to JC for me to really agree with him on the bigger issues.

What are the bigger JC policies that you don’t agree with, Mac?

[McLaren]

As in Owen Jones is too loyal and unquestioning of JC on things like brexit or the antisemitism. Jones seems to have swallowed the people have spoken Poopie pretty hard.

[Diggers]

Personally I think he’s right about the anti-semitism. You can be pro a Palestinian free state (I am) and take a dim view of Israel’s actions in the region (I do) without being pro Hezbollah terrorism. To disagree and possibly dislike Jewish groups in the U.K. because they are against a Palestinian free state doesn’t make you an anti semite.
Whole thing is just a Daily Mail feeding frenzy for the likes of Super to froth over.

[McLaren]

Diggers

I don't think JC or Owen are antisemitic but neither takes how Corbyns flirting with some pretty awful anti semites looks to Jewish people and the small but pretty nasty group of antsemites on the left.

What is odd is the large portion of racists on the right just get a free pass. For example the current governments policy to deport West Indians. The left is only a little anti jew in theory but the right have actually enacted racist policies.

[McLaren]

Ps I agree with you on Palestine. In fact I am not convinced Israel has the right to form a state of any kind on the land it currently occupies. But at the same time the Jews most definitely need their own state and only the nonsense of a religious text says it has to be there.

[pedro]

Ps I agree with you on Palestine. In fact I am not convinced Israel has the right to form a state of any kind on the land it currently occupies. But at the same time the Jews most definitely need their own state and only the nonsense of a religious text says it has to be there.

A bit ambiguous statement there?

[super_realist]

Ps I agree with you on Palestine. In fact I am not convinced Israel has the right to form a state of any kind on the land it currently occupies. But at the same time the Jews most definitely need their own state and only the nonsense of a religious text says it has to be there.

The Jews need their own state? What? Why does any Fairy Tale club deserve a country on the basis of a bloody myth? You've lost it this time Mac. Does that mean that those convinced they have been abducted by aliens deserve their own country?

Not having a country doesn't stop or hinder anyone from being a jew, or any other childish belief, and they aren't any less a jew for not having a "homeland"

There are no countries vacant Mac and the criteria for being a country, or having a country doesn't come from some bronze age fairy tale that is indistinguishable from Santa Claus or Bigfoot.

No religion deserves the right to have a country just because of what they believe in, that would be absolutely absurd.

[JAS]

Ps I agree with you on Palestine. In fact I am not convinced Israel has the right to form a state of any kind on the land it currently occupies. But at the same time the Jews most definitely need their own state and only the nonsense of a religious text says it has to be there.

The Jews need their own state? What? Why does any Fairy Tale club deserve a country on the basis of a bloody myth? You've lost it this time Mac. Does that mean that those convinced they have been abducted by aliens deserve their own country?

Not having a country doesn't stop or hinder anyone from being a jew, or any other childish belief, and they aren't any less a jew for not having a "homeland"

There are no countries vacant Mac and the criteria for being a country, or having a country doesn't come from some bronze age fairy tale that is indistinguishable from Santa Claus or Bigfoot.

No religion deserves the right to have a country just because of what they believe in, that would be absolutely absurd.

Ever thought of a negotiating job at the U.N. Soops? I’m sure your direct no-nonsense approach could just cut right through decades of bungled negotiations about the world’s most war ravaged region. :-p

[pedro]

Well, Israel is as much the result of Europes bad conscience as anything else. Can't see the UN dissolving the country anytime soon...

But the fact that some Israelis justify West Bank settlements based on old testament fairy tales is beyond ridiculous.

[dynamark]

The last few posts have been top class.No denying the Nazis and numerous other atrocities before and after in truth but religion again comes charging and shining through.One point though I have visited Dachau and before the Jews they had a campaign against what we would term gypsies who were also slaughtered but propbably don't have the same voice
The whole brexit agreement or not is wrapped around Ireland and essentially religious historic issue.I have no idea of an answer but religious hatred has a lot t answer for

[McLaren]

Super I quite clearly said that a religious text is no basis for creating a state. The Jews need a safe haven because of the way they have been treated in other countries over the centuries. Basic humanism will tell you that the Jews need a safe space.

One of the empty us states would do for example. Or the north of Scotland, that is pretty empty.

[pedro]

Mac, I think Scotland should remain a safe haven for the Scots...

[super_realist]

Super I quite clearly said that a religious text is no basis for creating a state. The Jews need a safe haven because of the way they have been treated in other countries over the centuries. Basic humanism will tell you that the Jews need a safe space.

One of the empty us states would do for example. Or the north of Scotland, that is pretty empty.

No Mac, I disagree, you still think that believing in a fairy tale means you should get your own country because you are "different" or because you've been "persecuted" at some point in the past. WW2 was a very long time ago. Why do they need a "safe haven" now? They aren't treated any worse than any other minority and how does how you were treated in 1870 or whenever relate to now and the people currently alive? Perhaps you would also like "safe haven" countries exclusively for disabled, gay, transgender etc  because of the oppression they have dealt with? The Jewish community don't have it worse than any other group.

You're always on about a lack of diversity, and now you want people in minorities to hide away in their "safe havens". Pathetic Mac. When has removing integration ever been a good thing?  Be consistent for once in your life.

As for it being the North of Scotland. What a disgrace. I know you have never been north of St.Andrews, but you are being an utter hypocrite (yet again). You cried into your Socialist Worker about Trump "destroying" a tiny area of dunes in Aberdeenshire, and now you want to destroy the pristine and far more important environment of North Scotland to cater for a few million idiots who follow an imaginary jewish sky zombie. You're being ridiculous Mac.

[Roller_Coaster]

I follow a religion with strong attachment to physical, mineral wealth. I need a homeland rich in gold, platinum, oil etc etc as all my peoples previous sanctities have been over-run by corporates and nations interested in the extraction and sale of such items for material wealth rather than rejoicing in their spirituality. I and my people have been persecuted for our beliefs. I should be given a suitable homeland and enough international contacts, infrastructure and licenses to distribute our religious artefacts in return for the wealth required to re-establish our 6 bedroomed mansion church for the betterment of all my family our disciples who deserve Rolls Royce a spiritual vehicle for our evangelical works to return us to our heavenly existence.

Oh, and northern Scotland doesn't cut it

[pedro]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

[Diggers]

I think an awful lot of GB and US self interest was involved in the creation of Israel, it certainly wasn't a completely altruistic decision.

[navyblueshorts]

I don't think we're remotely in a position to understand the reasons for Israel's creation. We're ~70 years out from the when, and we can't possibly understand the context of the times relating to the why.

[McLaren]

Questioning the existence of Israel, even like I did above, is actually considered to be antisemitic by bodies like splc, and ihra. So as much as I am portrayed as a social justice warrior on here I have knowingly adopted a position considered antisemitic.

Navy

You are probably correct and Israel was created in a time where religious logic had not been quite so thoroughly dismantled.

[Diggers]

I don't think we're remotely in a position to understand the reasons for people voting for Brexit.. .

Just fixed that.

[super_realist]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book, for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust. For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs, were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

[Eyetoldyouso]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

I ***ing care.  You have absolutely no concept of what institutionalised racism and persecution is nor the devastating effects it can lead to. WWII was not so long ago, I was born less than 10 years after the liberation of Auschwitz. Do yourself a big favour, either spend some time reading about religious persecution or STFU.

It's people like you, and your fellow travellers, spouting their primary school level opinions that have lead to increasing anti-semitism in this country. A recent survey showed that 5% of those polled doubted the holocaust. You seek to justify your opinions because lots of people have been persecuted or it happened a long time ago - so that makes it OK then?

I now take my leave of this site. No doubt you will be muttering - good riddance.

[Diggers]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

I ***ing care.  You have absolutely no concept of what institutionalised racism and persecution is nor the devastating effects it can lead to. WWII was not so long ago, I was born less than 10 years after the liberation of Auschwitz. Do yourself a big favour, either spend some time reading about religious persecution or STFU.

It's people like you, and your fellow travellers, spouting their primary school level opinions that have lead to increasing anti-semitism in this country. A recent survey showed that 5% of those polled doubted the holocaust. You seek to justify your opinions because lots of people have been persecuted or it happened a long time ago - so that makes it OK then?

I now take my leave of this site. No doubt you will be muttering - good riddance.

I wouldn't leave mate. Remember you are replying to someone who doesn't have the ability to empathise or sympathise, they aren't programmed that way.

[McLaren]

Super

You could set the bar pretty high for a group of people getting a country. Like maybe someone killing 6 million of them?

[dynamark]

Re polls very interesting on radio couple of days ago .Not really surprising that some 30 year olds and under do not recognise the holocaust depending on how the question is asked.History is only taught very briefly in early schooling
The point was made that if you ask 100 people if they really believe man landed on the moon chances are 10 will say no they doubt it.Its almost Ok to question news/fact these days.

[superflyweight]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

I ***ing care.  You have absolutely no concept of what institutionalised racism and persecution is nor the devastating effects it can lead to. WWII was not so long ago, I was born less than 10 years after the liberation of Auschwitz. Do yourself a big favour, either spend some time reading about religious persecution or STFU.

It's people like you, and your fellow travellers, spouting their primary school level opinions that have lead to increasing anti-semitism in this country. A recent survey showed that 5% of those polled doubted the holocaust. You seek to justify your opinions because lots of people have been persecuted or it happened a long time ago - so that makes it OK then?

I now take my leave of this site. No doubt you will be muttering - good riddance.

I wouldn't leave mate. Remember you are replying to someone who doesn't have the ability to empathise or sympathise, they aren't programmed that way.

I assume he was also programmed to be wilfully ignorant, but not let that get in the way of expressing a half-baked opinion.

[pedro]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

So what's your solution now that there IS a precedent? Dissolve Israel and send millions of Jews back to whereever?
America (North and South), Australia and Saf were also "given" to settlers (many of whom where persecuted in Europe) despite it being occupied by natives. Like Palestine these territories were also controlled by colonial powers at the time. That also makes some sort of "precedent" I guess (and not only whataboutery)?

[McLaren]

Pedro

In the cases of USA and Australia their constitutions (both state and national) should be rewritten so that the aboriginal people have a final say on any decision the invading governments make.

[super_realist]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

So what's your solution now that there IS a precedent? Dissolve Israel and send millions of Jews back to whereever?
America (North and South), Australia and Saf were also "given" to settlers (many of whom where persecuted in Europe) despite it being occupied by natives. Like Palestine these territories were also controlled by colonial powers at the time. That also makes some sort of "precedent" I guess (and not only whataboutery)?

I didn't say I had a solution. I'm questioning WHY there needed to be an Israel in the first place. Did Native Americans or Aboriginals get gifted a country after their particular genocides?

I think I probably would dissolve the West Bank, Israeli's have no business being there and are as guilty of persecuting others here as they were in their own history. Also, being  Jewish doesn't mean you have the slightest ties to Israel.

[super_realist]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

I ***ing care.  You have absolutely no concept of what institutionalised racism and persecution is nor the devastating effects it can lead to. WWII was not so long ago, I was born less than 10 years after the liberation of Auschwitz. Do yourself a big favour, either spend some time reading about religious persecution or STFU.

It's people like you, and your fellow travellers, spouting their primary school level opinions that have lead to increasing anti-semitism in this country. A recent survey showed that 5% of those polled doubted the holocaust. You seek to justify your opinions because lots of people have been persecuted or it happened a long time ago - so that makes it OK then?

I now take my leave of this site. No doubt you will be muttering - good riddance.

Good grief. I'm questioning WHY Israel needs a state as someone mentioned they deserve one because they've been persecuted since the middle ages. My question is WHY does it need one NOW.  Having a state doesn't, and hasn't solved anything, in fact, it's probably made it even worse for Jewish people and those who claim to be Israeli. I'm happy if you "take leave of this site" I've got no time for people who can't take criticism of their beliefs and/or cannot question why they have this manifest destiny complex.

The world is full of persecuted people through history. Jews are no more deserving or special than any other group.


There is nothing wrong with criticising the legitimacy of having an Israeli state, and if you have to leave a site because someone questions what is a pretty dubious regime, then perhaps you're the one with the problem.

[Diggers]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

So what's your solution now that there IS a precedent? Dissolve Israel and send millions of Jews back to whereever?
America (North and South), Australia and Saf were also "given" to settlers (many of whom where persecuted in Europe) despite it being occupied by natives. Like Palestine these territories were also controlled by colonial powers at the time. That also makes some sort of "precedent" I guess (and not only whataboutery)?

I didn't say I had a solution.  I'm questioning WHY there needed to be an Israel in the first place. Did Native Americans or Aboriginals get gifted a country after their particular genocides?

I think I probably would dissolve the West Bank, Israeli's have no business being there and are as guilty of persecuting others here as they were in their own history. Also, being  Jewish doesn't mean you have the slightest ties to Israel.

Both Australia and the USA recognised the aboriginal rights to lands and they were given trust land accordingly. Both countries went as far as they could do to make the lands self governing (effectively they are federal reserves) without creating an independent state.

[super_realist]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

So what's your solution now that there IS a precedent? Dissolve Israel and send millions of Jews back to whereever?
America (North and South), Australia and Saf were also "given" to settlers (many of whom where persecuted in Europe) despite it being occupied by natives. Like Palestine these territories were also controlled by colonial powers at the time. That also makes some sort of "precedent" I guess (and not only whataboutery)?

I didn't say I had a solution.  I'm questioning WHY there needed to be an Israel in the first place. Did Native Americans or Aboriginals get gifted a country after their particular genocides?

I think I probably would dissolve the West Bank, Israeli's have no business being there and are as guilty of persecuting others here as they were in their own history. Also, being  Jewish doesn't mean you have the slightest ties to Israel.

Both Australia and the USA recognised the aboriginal rights to lands and they were given trust land accordingly. Both countries went as far as they could do to make the lands self governing (effectively they are federal reserves) without creating an independent state.

I know that Diggers, my niece is 1/8th aboriginal and gets money from the Australian State. My question is not why Israel has a state, but why people use persecution of centuries ago as justification for it, perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. Furthermore, I don't see how the formation of a Jewish state has helped the issues they were facing any better. If anything, a Jew is a lot safer in Europe than they are in Israel, somewhat ironic.

[Diggers]

super, the discrimination against Jews was institutionalised since the middle ages. Jews had limited rights and were not allowed certain positions / jobs in society. OK you may argue women and gays had a similar tough time, but I'm sure if 6 million women or gays had been exterminated during WW2, they would also have been offered a safe haven somewhere at their liking.

Yes in hindsight the creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake, as it to a large degree was the result of the bad conscience of western powers, but in the years just after WW2 I'm pretty sure it seemed right.

Who cares? It doesn't mean they deserve a bloody country gifted to them simply because they've been persecuted IN THE PAST. Who cares if they've been persecuted in the past? Why does it mean they deserve a country they have no tie to, other than a bronze age book,  for it at the expense of someone else who occupies the land?

Lot's of minorities have been persecuted over the years, you can't start a precedent to give people a country just because they've had a history of being persecuted. Anyway, even if there had been an Israel pre world war 2, do you really think all the Jews from Europe would have lived there? Pull the other one. There still would have been millions in Europe and there still would most likely have been a holocaust.  For your information, homosexuals, disabled, non whites, gypsies, Slavs,  were also part of the holocaust (am I allowed to use that term Mac?) yet, where are the calls for their own country?

So what's your solution now that there IS a precedent? Dissolve Israel and send millions of Jews back to whereever?
America (North and South), Australia and Saf were also "given" to settlers (many of whom where persecuted in Europe) despite it being occupied by natives. Like Palestine these territories were also controlled by colonial powers at the time. That also makes some sort of "precedent" I guess (and not only whataboutery)?

I didn't say I had a solution.  I'm questioning WHY there needed to be an Israel in the first place. Did Native Americans or Aboriginals get gifted a country after their particular genocides?

I think I probably would dissolve the West Bank, Israeli's have no business being there and are as guilty of persecuting others here as they were in their own history. Also, being  Jewish doesn't mean you have the slightest ties to Israel.

Both Australia and the USA recognised the aboriginal rights to lands and they were given trust land accordingly. Both countries went as far as they could do to make the lands self governing (effectively they are federal reserves) without creating an independent state.

I know that Diggers, my niece is 1/8th aboriginal and gets money from the Australian State. My question is not why Israel has a state, but why people use persecution of centuries ago as justification for it, perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. Furthermore, I don't see how the formation of a Jewish state has helped the issues they were facing any better. If anything, a Jew is a lot safer in Europe than they are in Israel, somewhat ironic.

The way things are going in Europe I’m not sure they will feel safe for that much longer.

[super_realist]

Why would you say that Diggers? I'd rather be Jewish than Muslim in the West, wouldn't you? Mind you, I'd rather be a Muslim in Europe than a Jew in the Labour Party.

[Diggers]

I don’t think the far right differentiates between Islam and Judaism.

[pedro]

Why would you say that Diggers? I'd rather be Jewish than Muslim in the West, wouldn't you? Mind you, I'd rather be a Muslim in Europe than a Jew in the Labour Party.

Yeah. Muslims in Europe are by and large lower class peasants. Jews are mainly middle/upper class.
But still I’m sure muslims in Europe are pretty happy here as it’s a lot better than the sh!tholes they/their parents come from.

[navyblueshorts]

Re. Israel and its formation etc. There were plenty of Jews extant in what is now Israel prior to its formal recognition as a state. There were plenty of Jews heading to Palestine pre-WWII and during it (if they could get out). The recognition of modern Israel post-WWII was simply acknowledging the burgeoninig reality there. In addition, there was the post-Holocaust drive to “do something”. As to religion as a basis, bollox. It might have seemed poetic to grant Israel formal existence that tied in with religious history, but I doubt it went much further than that. The Jews in Palestine were asking for it as well. What were post-WWII powers going to do? It’s done now and isn’t it nice to have 20:20 hindsight?

As to the high-minded rubbish about states based on religious grounds, can’t you put it in historical context? The statesmen deciding on this were all 50+ Years old, born in the late 1800s or early 1900s and were a product of their society growing up. Of course they were religious and took all of that more seriously than we oh so intellectually superior modern people do. I’d be willing to wager an awful lot that if such as Mac or Super were born in, say 1880, they’d have been perfectly Christian church-goers just like 99.99% of their contemporaries.

[McLaren]

Navy

I had it easy because both my parents were atheists and religion was always talked about as an interesting cultural phenomenon that other people practiced. If anything I learned the arguments for atheism long after being an atheist and never had to shake off a belief in god. So yeh, in 1800's I would probably be Christian.

[super_realist]

Re. Israel and its formation etc. There were plenty of Jews extant in what is now Israel prior to its formal recognition as a state. There were plenty of Jews heading to Palestine pre-WWII and during it (if they could get out). The recognition of modern Israel post-WWII was simply acknowledging the burgeoninig reality there. In addition, there was the post-Holocaust drive to “do something”. As to religion as a basis, bollox. It might have seemed poetic to grant Israel formal existence that tied in with religious history, but I doubt it went much further than that. The Jews in Palestine were asking for it as well. What were post-WWII powers going to do? It’s done now and isn’t it nice to have 20:20 hindsight?

As to the high-minded rubbish about states based on religious grounds, can’t you put it in historical context? The statesmen deciding on this were all 50+ Years old, born in the late 1800s or early 1900s and were a product of their society growing up. Of course they were religious and took all of that more seriously than we oh so intellectually superior modern people do. I’d be willing to wager an awful lot that if such as Mac or Super were born in, say 1880, they’d have been perfectly Christian church-goers just like 99.99% of their contemporaries.

All very well Navy, but I think the biggest problem with the state of Israel is the way that Israelis have treated the Palestinians, and particularly their Nazi like occupation of the West Bank which is what continues to be the biggest issue in the region.
You might think that Israel deserves it's own state, but that doesn't mean they should be permitted to help themselves to other bits of the region and bulldoze people out of their homes. They don't like being persecuted, but are happy to persecute others it seems.

I take no side in middle east politics, but if you want to be treated well, you have to treat the other side properly, something Israel simply doesn't do.

.

[pedro]

Super, you seem to let the Israeli government policies influence your opinion on whether the state of Israel should have been created or not. Two different things.

I think their policies/actions, right or wrong, should be seen in context with being paradoid by having hostile neighbours denying to recognise the existence of the state.

With that being said it’s always refreshing with a democracy in an ocean of dictatorships.

[super_realist]

Not really Pedro, my whole issue is why Israel see their previous treatment as justification for their own state, and then they turn the tables on the people who inhabit that land, treating them in the same way that they complained about in regards to their own history. Rather ironic don't you think?

Israel like to play the victim, yet they're deeply involved in creating the tension in the middle east.


Israel cannot be surprised that magically creating a jerrymandered country causes issues in the region, if I was them I would realise that it's best not to antagonise the neighbours anymore by bulldozing locals out of their homes and taking more land than they were granted in the first place.
Always crying about their treatment, but too arrogant to take criticism.

[pedro]

With regards to the West bank we can agree. It’s a mess and Israel should pull out.

With regards to “mainland” Israel you should remember that 20% of the population are arabs, with israeli citizenship and equal rights, eg. to vote and form parties. (Only difference in “rights” is that arabs are not drafted for compulsory military service, but they can volunteer if they wish.   .)

Not saying there isn’t defacto discrimination but defo a stretch to pull the nazi card.

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