England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[Duty281]

Rather tortured innings for Stokes, that. I hope the time he spent in the middle does him some good for the remaining two tests.

Still 41 overs left in the day, perhaps another 8 on top of that if West Indies get England 8/9 down at the end.

[msp83]

Well, there is not much sign of rain, Gabriel isn't going anywhere, and England batsmen are not showing much intent to stick around, other than Ben Stokes who toughed it out while he was out there, never looked in touch though and eventually got out to Roston Chase for 34. Curran and co are yet to come, but England will struggle to take it pass today...

[Duty281]

Utterly awful from Ali. The same as Root, giving catching practice to the slip cordon.

England sinking fast in their desperation to give Chase, a spinner who can't spin the ball, his second test five-wicket haul.

[msp83]

Determined effort from Moeen Ali, absolutely refused to get out to pace or short ball!!

[VTR]

Abysmal from Moeen. Needs to bat at number 11 if he's in the team. Think he will be dropped for Leach though

[VTR]

We may as well talk selection for the next Test. I reckon they will go:

Burns
Denly
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Leach
Anderson

[Duty281]

Though Olly would be happy with that selection, I think we'll only see one change with Broad in for Rashid.

[VTR]

Wouldn't rule it out. Hope not though, we clearly need a seam attack that can get some carry on the ball and a reliable containing spinner. I'm not so concerned about Denly coming in as I suspect he will be poor

[msp83]

Roston Chase with 5! He has done what can, but the ball hasn't really been doing much for the spinner. Yet another pathetic show from the England batsmen...

[VTR]

Yes that's truly awful. Its the icing on the cake of the most atrocious Test performance in England's history. At least this 11 can say they sort of achieved something

[VTR]

6 for Chase. This is ridiculous. It would be like Root taking a 6 for which won't ever happen. So bad it's beyond embarrassing

[Duty281]

6 for Chase. This is ridiculous. It would be like Root taking a 6 for which won't ever happen. So bad it's beyond embarrassing

It's tragic. There isn't even the mitigation that this wicket is a massive turner.

[msp83]

The 2nd new ball not too far away. Chase has done his job bowling with the old one to take 6, but think West Indies would take the new ball right away. Think Holder should hold Gabriel back for it... Or may be he himself can share it with Roach.
Will Curran and Rashid survive to take on the new ball though?

[msp83]

England have no plans to stick around till the new ball. Chase gets his 7th!

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

When you pick a side full of luxury players a drubbing like this is always around the corner.

606 favourite Moeen is somehow considered an all rounder despite averaging under 30 with the bat and 37 with the ball. He's a mediocre player. In the 35 innings since his last test century, Moeen averages 23. Which is quite frankly pathetic.

Rashid is a journeyman bowler as his bowling average of 40 indicates.

Curran is a poor mans Stokes. Nothing more.

Jennings is one of the worst I've ever seen play for England

[Duty281]

The most resounding and embarrassing defeat I've seen inflicted on English test cricket in my lifetime.

As I said last year, the balance of the side has been all wrong with too many bits and pieces players picked and not enough pure batsmen. Some of the selections made have been downright diabolical - Jennings is not good enough. Rashid is not good enough and should never have been picked given his non-existent CC appearances. Stokes is not a test match five. Moeen is not a frontline spinner. Bairstow is, early days granted, unlikely to ever be a 3.

Some flattering results against a disappointing Indian side, a temperamental Pakistani outfit and a substandard Sri Lankan team have papered over some pretty gaping holes. As I said after England beat India 4-1: "This isn't a good result for England in the long-term, either, as this victory (and particularly the margin) will wall over the cracks for a short period."

And here we are. The nadir. A pretty poor West Indian side have pulverised and annihilated England. Holder has scored a double ton. Chase has picked up 7for. An embarrassment.

[msp83]

Well, no 2nd new ball yet. Seems they want Chase to try and take that 8for...

[msp83]

8 indeed for Roston Chase! West Indies win by 381!! Absolutely destroied England!

[Duty281]

My god. A non-spinning spinner has picked up eight wickets.

Well done to the West Indies, a competent and assured performance. The joint 7th biggest defeat, in terms of runs, in English test cricket history.

From the BBC: Shane Warne's best figures in his legendary career were 8-71 against England. Roston Chase has taken 8-60 today.

Wow.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Let’s wait to see what the pitch in antigua is like before there are XI proclamations - no point putting Broad and Woakes in on a pitch that’s a slow low turner and getting it wrong again. If it’s a similar pitch to here, Woakes/Broad in for Curran/Rashid, if it’s a slow low Turner than Broad for Curran and Leach for Rashid.

A stinker from England - but I think Collingwood is correct on sky. They’ve won 8 of their last 9 tests, making progress, but they’ve got it horribly horribly wrong here with selection and then performance - dust down and go again next test. The overreactions need to be tempered...

For me - Stokes shouldn’t be batting at 5 ahead of Buttler. Ali shouldn’t be batting 7 ahead of Foakes. And it’d be great if a top three would suddenly blossom, but we’ve literally tried every option now...the cupboard is just bare, and is what it is. I genuinely can’t think of an opener who can come in...?

[guildfordbat]

Olly - yeah, I was about to say that if you pick a side now for the next Test you run the real risk of getting the make up just as wrong as we did here.

Form ideas by all means but don't settle on anything until you see and (hopefully properly) assess the track.

[VTR]

I struggle to see the options whatever the conditions. Ali and Rashid look shot confidence wise with bat and ball. Which is odd after their good showing in Sri Lanka. My team was more based on who might come in and actually play with a bit of conviction

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Also reading up - some of the comments on Moeen are hilarious. Sure his batting has been poor for a while now, but since he’s come back into the side last summer he averaged 21 against India and 24.5 against Sri Lanka with the ball, and bowled ok second dig here. He shouldn’t be batting 3 (lol), or 7, but at 8 and as the main spinner should be his role, and his bowling has been good for a while now

Stokes averaging 25 with the bat since he came back into the side after the Bristol incident is a problem. Can’t be batting 5 averaging that (his bowling has been very good, under 30 since the incident). He needs to go back to how he was batting when he made the double hundred in SA, the hundred at Lords against NZ etc

[Duty281]

I'd give Moeen credit with the ball since his re-inclusion (but I don't see him as a frontline spinner, he's a second option), but his batting looks totally shot to pieces (and not for the first time). And then it becomes a problem, because he's in the side mostly for his batting. His scores since his recall are:

40, 9, 50, 20, 0, 3, 10, 10, 33, 22, 0, 0.

[sirfredperry]

Duty 281 - Have to agree with you. This was one of England's worst-ever performances. Somehow, whenever we play in the Windies, we manage a horror show but this was even worse than completely useless.

At least this is happening now and not next summer against the Australians. And at least it can't be any worse in Antigua....can it?

[VTR]

I'm no Moeen hater, but this was really bad and I think a bit of time out of the team might be better for him, or we could have another last Ashes scenario. Leach would be a better bet to keep it tight, and probably make more runs as well. If its a rank turner then probably have the go with both of them, though imagine how deadly Chase will be I'm that sceraio, he'll be eyeing up Lakers's record

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Do find it weird that Skybet have England and West Indies 5/4 to win the series outright. If you’ve no faith in England turning this round by Antigua, there’s a good buck to be made on the WIndies with a 1-0 lead in a three match series at 5/4

[Duty281]

Do find it weird that Skybet have England and West Indies 5/4 to win the series outright. If you’ve no faith in England turning this round by Antigua, there’s a good buck to be made on the WIndies with a 1-0 lead in a three match series at 5/4

Wouldn't have a clue how to call it now. Do I think England will recover to win at least one test? Yes. Win two in a row? Very, very unsure. It only takes one good West Indies innings of 400+ in the next two tests, and then England's chances of winning the series are dented.

[JDizzle]

Courtney Walsh, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall, Joel Garner... All with worse best Test bowling figures than Roston Chase. What a world we live in!

Performances like this have been England's MO for a while. Albeit quite not as bad as this! When they pick a team full of all rounders the inconsistencies are always going to be more pronounced because they don't have the out and out quality batting specialists to ensure they avoid the real low lows. History says they normally bounce back from crushing defeats pretty decently.

And we can cry for wholesale changes etc. etc. but we simply don't have the players! Broad has to play though, regardless of the pitch. Unless it's going to be a raging turner a la Sri Lanka.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Mo hasn't been anywhere near the worst, so can't see how he's a drop candidate.

Rashid is. Jennings may survive based on the fact that sticking around for a long time is currently a good innings by the standards our openers set.

[KP_fan]

I was travelling and barely followed the score on CI of this "Historic" game
And wasn't able to bet like i wanted on WI the moment i saw them win the toss as bet365 was restricted in country where i was.

Note that Root lost the first toss after winning 8 in a row vs Ind and Lanka....and lots the game

Just like Eng reserves their best against Aus...and Ind and Pak vs each other.....WI galvanize against Eng

Eng delivers a 2 digit score & crashes to a historic defeat it seems every 10 years or so
Root needs to show he can win after losing the toss.

[alfie]

Ha. Wasn't altogether surprised to wake up and see that 2 down at lunch turned into all out before the close...but was just a little bemused to see that a non-spinning part time spinner had taken eight wickets...

Guess it was an appropriate ending to a bizarre Test Match. Bizarre from an England viewpoint , that is . : long suffering West Indies fans can fairly see it as a magnificent triumph ! Roach , Holder , Hetmeyer , Dowrich ...and (gulp) Chase have performed brilliantly. Thoroughly deserved their victory and must surely fancy 3-0 on that form.

I don't really think it will be 3-0 (though after that dire performance a tiny knot of fear lurks at the back of my mind) Recent history says England usually bounce back quite well from surprise defeats - which are always heavy , it seems : they might win some close ones ; but England seem to fold up pretty badly when the other team gets on top. One reason why this side is a long way from being a really good one , despite some apparently good recent results against India and Sri Lanka.

Read the transcript of Root's press conference though not watched it. Usual guff - not that he could say anything useful anyway ; but does leave me less than confident that the management is really coming to grips with reality. Team selection has been dodgy for a while : they take credit when their "punts" come off but I wonder how much of the successes have been down to good fortune rather than proper planning . Consider : Curran , picked more or less by force of injury lists , for his bowling - saving the batting more than once against India ? Rashid - picked on a whim , barely needed when the pace men were doing the job so playing an effective 10 man team "worked" ? That flowing on to a tour where spin really was required so a rather oddly balanced attack did the job : but how much of that success was due to a Sri Lankan team being at or near rock bottom in skills and confidence ? And even the selection of Buttler ; who has been very successful in overcoming his original instincts to play a number of solid and valuable Test innings...but without really helping the overall batting results since his runs have largely replaced those previously made down the order by Bairstow , Moeen etc ...If the idea was moving other players up to cover the real holes in the batting it hasn't worked ; Moeen now looks lost , Stokes is batting too high , and Bairstow has work to do to convince me he is a viable number three.

As has been noted by others , the paucity of alternative options limits what they can do in the short term . (When they get home a proper re-assessment of the real needs of the team should be made , albeit with limited time to do anything about it before greeting the Australians - who have troubles of their own.) . For now I suspect we are stuck with the same openers (Denly for Jennings , maybe. But it is a throw of the dice rather than a considered move) I would swap Stokes and Buttler in the order : Jos has certainly developed his game from the one-dimensional hit out and hope limited over style that originally cost him his place ; but if he is really a pure batsman deserving of a permanent place he absolutely has to bat at five : let the all rounders follow when the serious ground work has been (hopefully) done. Foakes at 7 even if Moeen is retained : no certainty ! Surely a case for Leach as sole spinner if conditions suggest. Would offer control , just as good a chance of wickets and mathematically impossible to make less runs With either Curran or Woakes among the bowlers the batting remains long enough (on paper)

Levity aside I do not wish to be over critical of any of these fellows : they aren't bad players They all possess talent ; and on their day , in conditions that suit them , can do a job for the team. (Moeen , for one , is a player for whom I have a lot of time. As implied above , I think he has been to a considerable degree undermined as a batsman by being shifted around the order to accomodate other players preferences. And it is no secret that his bowling can be hostage to sudden loss of confidence. If I would prefer him rested (certainly not discarded permanently) next week it is because past events suggest he doesn't bounce back quickly when his confidence is shot - I suspect it is very low right now. Players like Jennings and Rashid may yet have a role to play in other places (UAE , for example) But England need to at least try to get round pegs in correctly shaped holes , etc...

One final note : I saw some rumours that Broad was off-colour before the match - no confirmation though. If it were so , his non-selection makes some sense (though surely Woakes or Wood were better choices than a second spinner) : but if not , his exclusion was frankly daft. However they might try to kid themselves otherwise , this England squad has just three players of unquestionable Test excellence : Anderson and Root were there but Broad was sitting on the bench . Not a percentage move...

[Gooseberry]

The worst of all this for me is that it shows England are still collectively mentally fragile. They did appear to have got over that through the India and Sri Lanka series and weathered difficult times well.
But in this game they just have up completely. It's pretty shocking really. In that context it doesn't matter a great deal who you pick.

Moeen is also extremely concerning. He seemed to have turned a corner with his bowling and confidence again and got settled back into the team, but despite a breif effective spell he seemed to let his head drop again. The batting reasons a big problem since his recall, and of course prior to that too.
Jennings was always getting selected on the basis of England having no option, but he clearly isn't developing or taking confidence from the century he made in Sri Lanka. He's supposed to be a rugged battler and mentaly strong, but he isn't imparting that to the team.
Curran was a poor selection and had a bad time. Maybe hung out to dry a bit in a role and on a pitch that didnt suit him against batsmen who were happy to go after gentle bowling. I cant see how he and Rashid can be continued with for the next test, but he needs to be managed well to not be left feeling like its one bad test and he carries the can permanently for a team failing.

[alfie]

Suppose the truth is most current teams are a bit mentally fragile ! Isn't just England who have folded up dramatically in the face of adversity in recent times. I am too lazy to dig out examples but I reckon nearly every team has had at least one absolute shocker in the last couple of years that has left their supporters shaking their heads...

I'm not too down on Curran. He'd only played , what , seven matches ? And before today , England have won them all. Sure his bowling isn't best suited to these conditions ; but if he'd been the fourth seamer - his correct role at present - rather than being expected to carry the load of opening bowler , he might have been less exposed. Not denying he had a bad match. It happens.

I don't want to be tagged a Rashid hater. But while he is an excellent white ball bowler , I struggle to see a situation in which he really offers more than Moeen or Leach as a spin option in Tests. If you are picking three spinners - as in Sri Lanka ( and possibly next time they go to India ?) : OK. But otherwise he remains a luxury they just cannot afford. the fact that Root used his own modest spin offerings more than Rashid in the second innings surely says it all. Wonder how much those silly two day "centre wicket practice days" influenced selection ? Leach didn't do well...but everything I've seen of them tells me he was a far more logical selection for this match : potentially more dangerous if the pitch was a real turner ; and surely more likely to offer a measure of control if it wasn't. Which with Moeen and Curran as the only other backups to the main pair should have been a serious consideration. It all adds to my feeling that the team was chosen on the (false) premise that the West Indies were basically easy meat for the taking...

As a side note to my earlier post : speaking of just three proven Test players was perhaps a little OTT. (I confess I'd momentarily forgotten Stokes - who also fits the bill despite his recent relative batting decline). Bairstow and Moeen also have reasonable claims : but the latter seems to have completely lost his batting mojo , and his bowling remains maddeningly inconsistent ; while Jonny might be a total lock if keeping and batting 6/7 , but now finds himself forced to try and re-invent himself in a totally different role.
The rest of the team is either too new (Burns , Foakes ) to count ; or has had a good six months (Buttler , Curran) ...while Jennings and Rashid are so up and down at best they cannot so qualify. I think the thrust of my argument remains valid.

[Gooseberry]

With you on that Alfie. We cant trash players on one game but you can look at trends and the obvious limitations. Curran is raw and sub Anderson pace. Whilst I understand this desire to get a new opening bowler blooded with Broad and Anderson both aged, I don't understand who thinks Curran is ever going to fit the bill without green home pitches. Even there his claims are no stronger than woakes and others.
With both him and Rashid we have seen that they were quickly only used as a last resort, suggesting that Root wasnt massively trusting of them to bounce back from dodgy spells which in turn hints he wasn't the driving force behind their selection.
Curran was barely used in Sri Lanka too, and there the idea that he would be in a side with 3 spinners was frankly baffling.
Prior to this game I was banging on about the apparent unity, team ethos and upward trajectory. Now I'm a lot less sure. Certainly its hard to imagine a happy camp after this and it will be a real test of resilience for players not to sulk and instead respond positively. Broad for one should be 100 percent switched on and keen to prove the ashes spot should be his. But that can become negative pressure and competition within the team.
Coming back from this and lifting guys like Moeen, and reassuring Curran if he is dropped that he's not burnt, keeping the team united etc will be a real test for the leadership. This is where Bayliss and Root will show what they are made of.

Im still shellshocked by the manner and margin of the victory against a team that is full of weak links and supposedly low on motivation.
Holders a legitimate star whos maybe flown under the radar a bit, but no-one really though he was a double century batsman. Hetmeyer supposedly represented everything that's wrong with modern test batting, yet no england batsman could match beginning with two attempts.
8 wickets for Chase is just unspeakable.

Even Pakistan dont lose like this.

[alfie]

Ha ha... I do like Holder but a double century seems a bit more than ever expected. But Gillespie made one (OK , Bangladesh , but still) ...and Jimmy got 80 against India once : even Glen McGrath got a fifty. Some days it just happens.

I actually thought you might have had something with your "team unity , high morale , etc" theory , Goose...and I wouldn't be rushing to abandon it on account of this game. You get bowled out for 77 - especially in response to nearly 300 - and all the team spirit in the world isn't likely to save you. However odd it seems that a number 8 bat and a part time spinner are the main instruments of further destruction , it really makes no difference - merely a curiosity. Someone was going to get them...

Of more concern was the fact that they didn't kick on from the good start : pity Burns got out right on lunch ; but I honestly felt then that they could at least take the game well into day five. I didn't watch after lunch - still haven't seen the dismissals - but from text it appears a fair few got themselves out playing aggressive strokes ? Fair enough don't go totally passive -(doesn't work when you have that long to bat ) ; but I'd have thought defence would be the priority. . Does rather suggest they can only play one way...The Bayliss Template of attack as a Means of Defence. I have news for them : won't work every time

Can't say I'm shocked. Disappointed , yes. But hopeful of better next week ... with the proviso that , whatever happens , they need to address the issues I raised above about picking a team rather than a collection of individuals , for the task at hand.

[shivfan]

A great performance by the guys!

Special commendations to....

Jason Holder
Roston Chase
Shane Dowrich
Kemar Roach
Shimron Hetmyer
Shai Hope

All but one of those guys is Bajan....

[VTR]

The list of players that Roston Chase now boasts a superior Test-best to is hilarious. From the Windies alone the likes of Sobers, Marshall and Walsh are in there. Outside of that players such as Shane Warne, Dale Steyn and Waqar Younis have never had such a return as The Bajan Murali

[sirfredperry]

I'm always at my most nervous when England have won a Test and at my most optimistic when they've been hammered. Eng were once bowled out for 46 by a much-stronger Windies team yet came back to win the next Test.

Despite this Test, Windies are still a very weak side. I'm expecting England to bounce back in Antigua.

[Gooseberry]

The list of players that Roston Chase now boasts a superior Test-best to is hilarious. From the Windies alone the likes of Sobers, Marshall and Walsh are in there. Outside of that players such as Shane Warne, Dale Steyn and Waqar Younis have never had such a return as The Bajan Murali

Im guessing Curran and Rashid are also on that list

[VTR]

It's a very long list, comprising probably 99% of bowlers who ever played the game, so those two don't quite make it!

[guildfordbat]

IF Burns had safely seen out the last over before lunch, I wonder how much more of the ball Chase would have had.

The answer has to be ''some'' given Gabriel's injury but I reckon not as much as was the case and we would still be waiting to find out about this all time great bowler.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The list of players that Roston Chase now boasts a superior Test-best to is hilarious. From the Windies alone the likes of Sobers, Marshall and Walsh are in there. Outside of that players such as Shane Warne, Dale Steyn and Waqar Younis have never had such a return as The Bajan Murali

You're going to look very silly when he takes the most wickets in Test cricket for the next three years running VTR

[VTR]

Ha, it could be the start of something, especially if he develops a few variations eg the one that actually spins would be a hell of an addition

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

https://www.cricket365.com/countries/england/revealed-why-jennings-doomed-burns-has-chance/

The stats don't lie.

[Gooseberry]

Jennings being on borrowed time wasnt exaty a secret, his recall at all was "well who else".
Let's face it the squad option of Denly, a real desperation move, makes Burns largely undroppable for a good few matches regardless of his ability to score 80 something

[guildfordbat]

In his review of individual performances in the first Test, Nasser Hussain gave an 8/10 to Burns and commented:
''Played really well, getting his tempo and the balance between defence and attack absolutely right. Will have been disappointed to get out just before lunch to a ball that didn't spin. But a real tick for me.

I thought that was pretty generous towards the Surrey man. It overlooks his troubled first innings and possibly doesn't factor in enough that that he really should have stayed there and gone on further in the second.

Apart from Anderson and Stokes who got 9 and 7 respectively, Hussain marked the other England players between 3 and 5. For me, possibly Stokes could have been marked down a bit for his batting but about right.

Thoughts?

Alfie - don't hold back from saying you don't like markings for a single Test.

[VTR]

Well, as I think it's our worst Test performance of all time, if we're rating 1 to 10 surely there has to be a 1 in there somewhere? So Rashid gets 1 for me, Moeen I'll give him 5 for his bowling, knock three off for batting, so he gets a 2. Sam Curran probably 2 as well.

[guildfordbat]

Well, as I think it's our worst Test performance of all time, if we're rating 1 to 10 surely there has to be a 1 in there somewhere? So Rashid gets 1 for me, Moeen I'll give him 5 for his bowling, knock three off for batting, so he gets a 2. Sam Curran probably 2 as well.

Yeah, I suppose you could make a case that Hussain's base is on the steep side.

Tbf to Hussain, he also gave his lowest score of 3 to Bravo who played poorly and certainly appeared under prepared. The other Windies players scored between 6 and, in Holder's case, 10.

[Duty281]

Only Anderson and Stokes, and to an extent Moeen, can come out with any real credit. It's good that Burns got time in the middle, but that's all it was as the game had gone by that point.

Main worry for Thursday - aside from Chase being the second coming of Murali - is that so many of the English batsmen are out of form. Moeen and Stokes look lost at the crease. Jennings is an easy wicket. Bairstow is averaging under 35 for the past two years. Root hasn't averaged above 40 in a series since the Ashes. Burns and Foakes are yet to establish themselves.

My, my, it's a desperate looking situation. Only saving grace is James Anderson is a tremendous leveller.

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