England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[Gooseberry]

Curran and Moeen are lucky to keep their places, but England tend not to make wholesale changes and it was just one game etc. But it does still mean we dont have our best possible bowling attack out there. (Remarkably Leach even has a better SR than Moeen)

[Duty281]

4/1. Tidy start from Roach and Burns duly nicks behind to a neat delivery.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

4/1. Tidy start from Roach and Burns duly nicks behind to a neat delivery.

Decent nut from Roach that - and looks like a good toss for the Windies to have won. Grass on the wicket, ball is nipping, be surprised if England aren't 4/5 down at lunch...

[Duty281]

Massive slice of luck for Denly, who appeared to be trapped plumb LBW, but an umpire's call just saves him when the Windies review.

Roach enjoying an excellent start.

[king_carlos]

Surrey aside who bathe in asses milk and act as a laundering facility for russian billionaires

A strangely off topic statement, but as it's there. The second half of that is the sort of thing that you really need to backup with factual evidence in order to throw around.

You think Hildreth would hack it as a top 3 bat in test cricket? Really?

In the absence of better options I think he's earned a chance more than Denly has, yes.

You've slightly missed my point in that post which was that in the absence of an alternative, the county championship, even if so by default, is still the best indicator of talent we have for tests. Yes it needs significant improvement and obviously cash is a huge issue for many counties. I'm the last person to argue it's perfect.

If, however, the alternative is randomly selecting players for vague, undefined reasons such as 'looking the part' or 'offering multiple skill sets', then it still remains the best indicator. Hence, yes, I think Hildreth deserve a chance. Do I think he'd be a guaranteed success, no, I obviously don't. I do however think that he deserved a spot in this touring squad ahead of Denly.

England need to start investing targeted coaching and money in ensuring that the best test prospects are given the support they need to push on and concentrate on those skills. That might even mean subsidising wages to stop them wanting to go on the T20 circuit and concentrating on that game, whilst also having a development pathway for those who have the natural aptitude and raw skills to succeed in the shorter formats. There will be the odd player like Root who can succeed in all 3 (or 4 now) formats, but if we want technically correct proper test batsmen then someone needs to employ, encourage and coach them. The Counties are not doing that.

This I agree with you on completely. An expansion of the central contract system to include financial help for young players who coaches have identified as potential test players would take some weight off the counties and help those talents.

[Duty281]

4/1. Tidy start from Roach and Burns duly nicks behind to a neat delivery.

Decent nut from Roach that - and looks like a good toss for the Windies to have won. Grass on the wicket, ball is nipping, be surprised if England aren't 4/5 down at lunch...

Aye, can't disagree. Already a bit of variable bounce, too.

[LondonTiger]

Sheesh what a way to lose your wicket Mr Denly.  For Joseph almost Bothamesque taking a wicket with an atrocious ball.

[Duty281]

Arguably the worst wicket ever seen in cricket since Campbell's 2nd innings dismissal in the last test.

What a terrible shot though. The job of an opener is to see off the new ball, not to throw your bat at something so wide.

Now Root has narrowly got away with one. England teetering towards another crisis.

[VTR]

This is looking like a load of rubbish again. We can only hope the real Windies turn up this game, as they will surely be rolled for under 150 at some point

[LondonTiger]

Variable bounce.

[Duty281]

If England get to 300 on this, they'll have done very well. Very tough wicket to bat on.

[msp83]

England are 2 down for next not much and the runs aren't flowing. Still, I feel the WI bowlers could have done better in terms of making the batsmen play more. There is bounce, there is movement on this track, shouldn't let that go waste.
England trying to help, by chasing wide deliveries and Denley succeeded in edging one. But Holder should tell his seamers to stay focused...

[alfie]

Hmm. I see England are off to their traditional brilliant start

Sent in on a green top ? Revival of days of Marshall/Holding/Roberts etc ?  Or just the usual inept top order batting?

Ha . Just seeing the replays.  Burns got a good ball , I see ...but Denly won't be keeping his dismissal video for his highlight album...

Looks to be a bit in the wicket for the quicks. If it stays that way England will be glad they've gone with four pace men. I see Moeen has held off Leach : fair enough I guess  - he has some in the bank (with the ball anyway ); but you might say he needs runs

As do they all...

[El Radar]

I see Moeen has held off Leach : fair enough I guess  - he has some in the bank (with the ball anyway ); but you might say he needs runs

As do they all...

He's been picked purely for his batting which on current form is abysmal, Leach simply is the better bowler and about time the selectors started picking specialists instead of a litany of C grade all rounders.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Blooming heck - what a brute of a delivery, not a player in the world who could've played that, ridiculous bounce!

[Duty281]

This pitch simply isn't a good one. We won't get past three days at this rate.

[alfie]

Oh blimey ! Root gone to a truly unplayable lifter from Joseph !

300 ? If England get 200 on this they'll be delighted. Not the Antigua surface we've seen in the past...

Glad to see Buttler at five today ; though he might be thinking it ain't the best day to be promoted up the order

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

This pitch simply isn't a good one. We won't get past three days at this rate.

Not a bad toss for Holder to win this one! England have to hope the variable bounce only gets worse...and doesn't flatten

[Gooseberry]

3 specialist batsmen gone in minutes...why do we even bother. Conditions or not its no use complaining about picking bits and pieces players when the only ones who got their test chances solely on batting cant must a double figure score between them.

Pathetic.

[alfie]

I see Moeen has held off Leach : fair enough I guess  - he has some in the bank (with the ball anyway ); but you might say he needs runs

As do they all...

He's been picked purely for his batting which on current form is abysmal, Leach simply is the better bowler and about time the selectors started picking specialists instead of a litany of C grade all rounders.

Well : I am on record as preferring Leach for this one myself. But in truth he has only played four Test Matches - three of them on very helpful surfaces. Moeen for all the flak he attracts has done some good work with the ball on many occasions.  Sure he is maddeningly inconsistent ; but I do not agree he is being "picked purely for his batting".  
I think it is a legitimate , if debateable , call.

Meanwhile a bit of counter-attack from YJB with three boundaries off a Holder over...and now two more off Joseph. Fifty up

[Gooseberry]

I see Moeen has held off Leach : fair enough I guess  - he has some in the bank (with the ball anyway ); but you might say he needs runs

As do they all...

He's been picked purely for his batting which on current form is abysmal, Leach simply is the better bowler and about time the selectors started picking specialists instead of a litany of C grade all rounders.

Moeen is englands leading wicket taker since his recall...but yeah Leach in theory is the better bowler (and has done very well with his chances), and Moeens batting has been bad for a long time now.

[Duty281]

Bairstow realising that, on this wicket, you're bound to get an unplayable delivery at some point, so why not attack whilst you're there.

[guildfordbat]

Hmm. I see England are off to their traditional brilliant start

Sent in on a green top ? Revival of days of Marshall/Holding/Roberts etc ?  Or just the usual inept top order batting?

Ha . Just seeing the replays.  Burns got a good ball , I see ...but Denly won't be keeping his dismissal video for his highlight album...

Looks to be a bit in the wicket for the quicks. If it stays that way England will be glad they've gone with four pace men. I see Moeen has held off Leach : fair enough I guess  - he has some in the bank (with the ball anyway ); but you might say he needs runs

As do they all...

Hi Alfie - both openers could have gone even before they did! Burns almost played on to the first ball whilst Denly was incredibly lucky to survive an lbw shout.

Quite subtle by his standards but Lloyd raising worries about the track ....

[alfie]

This pitch simply isn't a good one. We won't get past three days at this rate.

Not a bad toss for Holder to win this one! England have to hope the variable bounce only gets worse...and doesn't flatten

Was hearing (yesterday) they expect the pitch to get slower. But it looks such a dogs breakfast of a surface you'd think it will play up throughout...
Might not get the big leaping ones in a couple of days ; but might have them scuttling along the ground ? You'd fancy a result , anyway

[alfie]

Good morning guildford ...thanks for the extra info.

Don't think it will be just Lloyd questioning this pitch ! As I type Jos makes an early exit... Would be a good day for Stokes to come good with the bat...

[VTR]

We somehow need to cobble together 150 then not make Hope, Holder and Dowrich look like Bradman, Botham and Gilchrist for once.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The positive - if ever a pitch was made for Broad...

[guildfordbat]

This pitch simply isn't a good one. We won't get past three days at this rate.

Not a bad toss for Holder to win this one! England have to hope the variable bounce only gets worse...and doesn't flatten

Was hearing (yesterday) they expect the pitch to get slower. But it looks such a dogs breakfast of a surface you'd think it will play up throughout...
Might not get the big leaping ones in a couple of days ; but might have them scuttling along the ground ?  You'd fancy a result , anyway

That could suit Sam Curran's low whippy deliveries.

[alfie]

Fifty for the aggressive Bairstow

Outstanding effort in the context of this innings. We need him to go on though...and someone else to stand up.

At least they're nearing the first target (77)

But here comes Chase

[msp83]

Effective counterattack from Bairstow. Has worked well for him so far, and it would have been beyond pathetic for England had it not been the case.
Lively track, and even now, I feel West Indies hasn't bowled as well as they could and should have and they still have managed 4 wickets. Even Chase seems to get just that little from the pitch.

[Duty281]

78/4 at lunch. Not too bad on a travesty of a wicket. 200 would be ok, 250 will likely win the game, unless it flattens out (which is highly unlikely). Excellent effort from Bairstow.

[alfie]

78/4 at lunch...lively session.

Hope England can recover after the break . I have to get some more sleep so will check this again in a few hours...good luck England fans...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

78/4 at lunch. Not too bad on a travesty of a wicket. 200 would be ok, 250 will likely win the game, unless it flattens out (which is highly unlikely). Excellent effort from Bairstow.

Have to concur with you here Duty - as weird as it sounds, don't think England have done too bad...obviously not great - but through mainly the efforts of Bairstow they've managed to stave off a similar situation to what happened in Barbados. Could quite easily have lost the game in that session, the way the pitch was behaving and being put in...

[msp83]

So England go to lunch on 78-4. The 77 is out of the way thanks to Bairstow. The track may not be as lively from here and might just settle a little. England would hope Bairstow would go on, and Stokes would find form with the bat. And perhaps, the batting depth might come handy...
Despite the 4 wickets, I really do feel the West Indies bowlers haven't made best use of conditions. They have got away with it mostly though, as they still produced enough wickettaking deliveries to have England 4 down. They would hope the discipline that they maintained in the first test would be more at supply in the next session, and hope to have England bowled out by tea or around for less than 200.

[Duty281]

Shocker of an umpiring decision, but DRS reverses it. Big wicket, Bairstow gone. 150 looks a tough ask now. Can't see Moeen lasting long.

Odds on the West Indies right now: evens. Odds on England: evens

[Duty281]

93/6, beautiful delivery from Gabriel. And it's Stokes out, not Moeen. England in trouble, tough pitch or no tough pitch.

[msp83]

All that England has to hope for here is the batting depth. That might still take them to 200.
And if the wicket stays as it is, then that might just be enough to at least make a match out of it.

[msp83]

Bit of a partnership this, in the context of the innings so far. Ali has lasted this much, without always looking the most asured. He has managed to see off Roach and Gabriel's post-lunch spells. Holder may get the bounce with his not the shortest of frames going around, but he's not the quickest. Joseph is quick, but not the most accurate of them all.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

36 overs in 3 hours...over rate is beyond woeful

[VTR]

Well the good news is Chase won't take an 8 for again

[msp83]

Moeen Ali getting his act together, batting on 36. Absolutely valuable this is.
The pitch seem to be losing a bit of the edge, though there is enough to keep the bowlers interested.

[Duty281]

Yep, Moeen's ridden out a very rough spell and is starting to cash in. Partnership of 50+...highly valuable on such a demanding wicket.

Over rate is, indeed, a disgrace. Probably why they've got Chase on.

[Mat]

Valuable knock from Moeen, can’t keep a good man down.

[El Radar]

Typical, berate Moeen and he then plays the first decent knock for a while.

[VTR]

Didn't see that coming from Moeen. Finally showing a bit of form. Actually played himself in for once by the sounds

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Well what looked like it could be a disaster session actually turned out to be a decent one for England - they’ve managed to drag themselves back into the game at least, which is an improvement on the first innings from the last game!

If they can still be batting come close of play it’ll be a good day indeed...

[king_carlos]

It's not been a comfortable 100 balls to watch Moeen face but he's scored a valuable 60* thus far.

Foakes is playing the foil well at the other end.

A very important partnership here in the context of the series.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good innings from Mo comes to an end - definitely still doing something for Roach and Gabriel here, hopefully the final three wickets can get us to 230-250ish range which would be a decent effort and definitely have us in the game imo

[Duty281]

The end is nigh.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Oh man that’s unlucky - Foakes is through a pull too early, somehow rebounds off the glove onto his body, then onto the stumps. A shame

Need Curran/Broad to throw the bat here to get over 200, then get into them tonight.

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