England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Campbell's luck finally runs out

[alfie]

At last ! Stokes finds the edge and Campbell's luck runs out... Buttler will be mightily relieved he held on to that one . A hundred overs between wickets for England then ...

I was afraid for a moment they would check his feet and discover it was a no ball

Now lets see how the new man finds things.

[alfie]

This just ain't happening. We'll probably lose by an innings now. Can't be arsed following it anymore

Great jinx , VTR

[El Radar]

It surprises me that Jos Buttler is such a terrible slip fielder considering he's a wicketkeeper by trade, finally holds on to one but it was a common theme throughout the India series too.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It surprises me that Jos Buttler is such a terrible slip fielder considering he's a wicketkeeper by trade, finally holds on to one but it was a common theme throughout the India series too.

Also dropped Hetmyer in the 1st test on this tour - he's approaching fine leg to fine leg duty!

[VTR]

Ha, I meant in general though. The ball now 40 overs old and the stroke players can cash in. A lead of 100 is worth double what it normally would on this wicket

[alfie]

What the devil was Broad thinking then ? Gifting four runs with a stupid throw

Owes Jimmy a pint or two for that.

First hour to West Indies.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think it might be time for a bit of Moeen - there was some grip for Chase yesterday.

[alfie]

Ha, I meant in general though. The ball now 40 overs old and the stroke players can cash in. A lead of 100 is worth double what it normally would on this wicket

Lead of 100 would just about settle the match. Not assuming that will happen though. Think the pitch will continue to offer enough that wickets may easily fall at any time. And not convinced this West Indian team is that good with the bat. I fancy a collapse at some stage...though perhaps I'm just a hopeless optimist

Have to admit they've just produced a couple of nice drives ...but then along comes a fierce lifter : we shall see.

I'll give it until lunch ...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ha, I meant in general though. The ball now 40 overs old and the stroke players can cash in. A lead of 100 is worth double what it normally would on this wicket

Lead of 100 would just about settle the match.  Not assuming that will happen though. Think the pitch will continue to offer enough that wickets may easily fall at any time.  And not convinced this West Indian team is that good with the bat.  I fancy a collapse at some stage...though perhaps I'm just a hopeless optimist

Have to admit they've just produced a couple of nice drives ...but then along comes a fierce lifter : we shall see.

I'll give it until lunch ...

Personally don't think a lead of 100 would mean England are out of the match either...if we're approaching 200 then yeah, we're in trouble. Chasing anything above 120 on this pitch (you would assume it's going to get worse, not better) in the last innings is going to give the bowling side a chance...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Now a leading edge lands just in front of Stokes in his follow through...

Lets hope England are saving all their luck for their 2nd dig with the bat

[alfie]

You have faith in this England team making 220 plus second innings then Olly ? Not sure I have !

I think they need to keep West Indies to about 250 , tops. Otherwise I can see them folding again - especially if the pitch gets worse.

Can still be done. Broad wasn't over bowled early on...wouldn't surprise me to see him rip through them after lunch.

Not sure Curran is the answer on this though. Maybe Moeen time ?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

You have faith in this England team making 220 plus second innings then Olly ?  Not sure I have !

I think they need to keep West Indies to about 250 , tops.  Otherwise I can see them folding again - especially if the pitch gets worse.

Can still be done.  Broad wasn't over bowled early on...wouldn't surprise me to see him rip through them after lunch.

Not sure Curran is the answer on this though. Maybe Moeen time ?

I do...some may call it blind faith...but I still fancy them in this game (this may look a foolish post come Sunday)

But agree - Curran looks very placid, and is leaking runs. Would definitely like to see Moeen.

[alfie]

Moeen duly arrives...

I hope you are right , Olly. My own optimism is struggling to survive . Just seems everything that can go wrong (lose the toss , Foakes gets injured , all the close calls going against) is starting to tell. Wondering if there is a turning point ...maybe someone will produce a brilliant hundred in the second innings : but I'm no longer holding my breath.
Stokes still looks dangerous. But he will need to rest soon.

[alfie]

Moeen quite tidy ...three overs for just six. Need wickets the other end though.

I need sleep. Have to leave it to the rest of you to collapse the innings after lunch

But I fear this session has put West Indies very close to taking an iron grip on match and series. They've had luck ; but they're looking pretty disciplined right now.

One more over ?

[alfie]

Great session for the locals 126/1.

Hope I can wake tomorrow to better news...but I fear this is slipping away fast. Good luck chaps...

[Duty281]

Another key session won by the West Indies. As has been the story of the one and a half tests so far. Barring a masterful spell, this will be a sizeable deficit.

[VTR]

Yes, our 187 is now looking very s##t, and it wasn't much good to start with. And now Bradman (only against England, rubbish against everyone else) is getting going

[VTR]

England finally get another. It does move us closer to the mighty Dowrich and Holder striding out to the crease though

[VTR]

Broad strikes twice quickly to remove Bradman and Murali. England just about hanging on

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen gets Hetmyer after england had dropped him - fielding has been sloppy today, but England are just about hanging around in this game. Need to get these final five wickets sharpish and keep them under 250

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Well england need Burns and Denly to be at the crease by close of play tonight

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Broad and Anderson bowling crap with the new ball here

[Gooseberry]

Broad and Anderson bowling crap with the new ball here

I guess they are tired, partly because Root clearly has no faith in Curran to let him bowl a significant number of overs. The 9 hes bowled so far is the average number hes had per innings of his career. Anderson bowled 30 in the first innings of the last test.

Why does he keep getting picked if they dont want him to bowl?

Its not that I dont agree with Roots thinking mind, hes not exactly done well when given a chance in this series but again...why is he being selected?

(OK its because the cupboard is bare and he did well and he offers a different option and someone other than Root thought he could be englands new opening bowler)

But yeah

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And then Buttler shells another one - england’s Fielding chose a bad day to desert them

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And then DRS overturns an LBW against Dowrich

That might be that

[king_carlos]

Looks like the slip cordon didn't realise that was a dropped chance by Butler.

Dowrich survives on review just after.

England need a break here.

[guildfordbat]

Well england need Burns and Denly to be at the crease by close of play tonight

Yes - but not bowling, mind.

I was just going to comment on Curran having sent down only 9 overs but goose has beaten me to it.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Broad and Anderson bowling crap with the new ball here

Since this they’ve bowled beautifully and somehow not taken a wicket again - absolutely ridiculous how often Broad has gone past the edge today!

[Gooseberry]

Well england need Burns and Denly to be at the crease by close of play tonight

Yes - but not bowling, mind.

I was just going to comment on Curran having sent down only 9 overs but goose has beaten me to it.

Its only going to happen if theres just one over left otherwise itll be broad and anderson batting

[king_carlos]

Finally Broad gets a reward for his hard work.

Dowrich out to an absolute snorter that kicked up and away from a full length.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Pretty unlikely to happen now, but if england could somehow set the WIndies 150ish to chase, this would be a heck of a game

[king_carlos]

That's a really poor review by England.

[Duty281]

Same story in the first innings for the Windies as the last test. Lots of batsmen getting in, making 20-40 scores, then getting out. Doesn't normally win test matches, but when England are posting such meagre returns, it does. Another 100 runs here and I think England are toast.

[Gooseberry]

Same story in the first innings for the Windies as the last test. Lots of batsmen getting in, making 20-40 scores, then getting out. Doesn't normally win test matches, but when England are posting such meagre returns, it does. Another 100 runs here and I think England are toast.

Also kinda helps when a lower order batsman makes a double century in the second innings....

They've rode their luck a fair bit and benefited from Englands nerve going when it comes to fielding, another day those 40 somethings could've been single figures. I just don't think this is a century kind of pitch, and they are facing some good spells of bowling, as of course did England. And really West Indies batting lacks real pedigree. Theres no Root in there and some of them would struggle to get in the England side (well OK maybe not).

Its just one of those games. England got out playing shots, its also how they made the few runs they did. The West Indies have done their best to get out playing shots but keep missing altogether. I guess England have been outplayed but its not as comprehensive and complete as the last game where they were utterly destroyed.

Its going to take a hell of a turn around for England to get back in this, another 100, 50 or even 20. In a low scoring game this is already a good lead, and the indications are Englands heads are dropping. Andersons overbowled (again) and might not be fully on for the second innings (again), Broads done even more work than him.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It’s incredible that someone with the stats 28-13-42-3 has been insanely unlucky - but that’s how good Broad has bowled today.

Seems his new shortened run up is allowing him to bowl longer spells too

[Gooseberry]

I guess hes well rested at least ... the benefits of having being rotated out whilst still at least being there to mess about with his run up and carry drinks for Curran.

Broad does seem to have blown hot and cold throughout his career and sometimes needed that kick up the backside. One thing you cant fault him on is he willingness to learn and adapt. Hes a very different bowler now to the borderline quick he started as, and on the way we've seen the T20 world cup won with his slow bouncers and the development of the leg cutter.

Pity he couldnt apply the same to his once promising batting, but if Curran could go on to take as many wickets as he has and bowl as well as he does when hes switched on then I wouldn't mind him never passing 50 again (although maybe in this match it would be helpful if he could do both)

[msp83]

Though I've been following this nicely evolving game for most of it, couldn't come here for a while. At 260-6, West Indies are beginning to pull away from England.
Curious innings this from Darren Bravo. He has not quite got going after playing moe than 140 balls. Never really looked like getting out either. Hasn't looked like deliberately playing within himself. Been a bit strokeless, but pretty fine temperament shown so far, has not let the lack of flow of runs et to him. Has given himself a good chance, as is the case with his side. Has to be said he has seemed relatively more secure than other batsmen.
Someone like Brathwaite also takes his time to score the runs and isn't bothered by the strike rate. But Bravo is a different kind of batsman, a fine strokeplayer who has got all shots in the book. Hasn't got as good a record at home as it is away, but lots of determination after that no-show on test return last game.

[VTR]

Just not happening for England, have beaten the bat probably over 50 times in this innings. They have bowled well to be fair and any other time, there's be no lead. As it is the lead is huge on this pitch and growing, and England will probably nick everything going

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Not entirely sure how England have only come out of that day having taken only 6 wickets - Broad, Stokes, Moeen all bowled wonderfully, as did Anderson in patches.

Fair play to West Indies for digging in, but they really really rode their luck today. And look set to cash in with another win, unless england suddenly find some batting resolve from somewhere (unlikely)

England must’ve gone past the outside edge literally about 50 times

[msp83]

At 272-6, West Indies end day 2 85 ahead. They would hope Bravo and the skipper, and the bowlers would be able to get them to a lead close to 125... It will be very difficult for England to turn it around from there on.

[Duty281]

Bizarre day of test cricket. If you were to look at the scorecard, and hadn't watched any of the play, you'd assume that the West Indies batted with iron resolve and discipline on a tough track. Whilst that is true to a limited extent, there were an extraordinary number of play and misses and half-chances. On another day, England would be batting by now.

As it is, England are well behind and look a beaten team. If they roll out these last four wickets in the opening thirty minutes tomorrow, they may just have a chance, but any longer and the door will be firmly shut, locked and bolted.

[VTR]

Think we could have done with Woakes here. I know he might not have come off, but surely with his height he's a better bet than Curran who has been unthreatening today. That would have allowed Root to rotate the steamers a bit more, he barely used Curran again, Woakes is a hugely experienced bowler

[alfie]

Hmm.  At 85 ahead , West Indies aren't quite out of sight...but with four wickets left and the main bowlers surely cooked , the lead will likely be more like 150 than 100 , no ? Even if the last few fall quickly , can anyone see England mustering 300 in the second innings on this ?
I'd like to believe there is some magic batting effort to come tomorrow. But who is going to supply it ? Root seems out of sorts at present (problems of captaincy ?) Stokes , while his bowling is fine , just doesn't look the same dominant aggressive batsman he was before Bristol . Buttler is finding West Indian pace a different matter from Sri Lankan spin . And Bairstow might find batting three after keeping for a day and a half a bit challenging...
To be honest , it is still possible. The West Indies bowlers are dangerous ; but can also be expensive if things go against them for a while.  And England's bats have not all suddenly become rubbish overnight. Effectively , they need to match whatever the home team makes in this innings to give themselves a chance.  Skill , heart - and a bit of luck perhaps - could effect a great escape.

But you'd get good odds against down the betting shop...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Quietly confident England are going to have a good day today...fancy them to be batting again by tea...

The bowlers were on your wavelength. Broad in particular looked majestic - it can be easy to forget his brilliance, sometimes.

Bad day in the field, with a lot of bad luck thrown in. You feel this England team could rip the Windies apart, but it's not quite clicked into place.

[KP_fan]

If Eng lose this one....it should hurt them...because they won the toss and batted first.
I haven't watched any of highlights either so no Idea what pitch is like...........and how Eng got bundled for 180 odd.....& I think that's where they played themselves out

I sense WI raise their game against Eng & will put on another 60 odd to get to 150.....
and even if Eng can muster 250.......chasing 100 down won't be a problem.

betters are  giving you literally nothing on WI win& 5 times return on Eng win...confirms where Eng stands now

[VTR]

England lost the toss and were put in

[VTR]

This isn't a match where you can just look at the scorecard and interpret it. England were put in and didn't bat that well, but not terribly and their score was felt to be competitive. Windies then closed day one after probably the most astonishingly lucky opening partnership of all time. It really was classic not good enough to edge the ball stuff. That did take the sting out of England, but still yesterday the bat was beaten so many times it was ridiculous (Broad has said 103 times which must come from the team analyst)

England will lose this but have genuinely had zero luck, whereas they were just rubbish in the first Test

[guildfordbat]

This isn't a match where you can just look at the scorecard and interpret it. England were put in and didn't bat that well, but not terribly and their score was felt to be competitive. Windies then closed day one after probably the most astonishingly lucky opening partnership of all time. It really was classic not good enough to edge the ball stuff. That did take the sting out of England, but still yesterday the bat was beaten so many times it was ridiculous (Broad has said 103 times which must come from the team analyst)

England will lose this but have genuinely had zero luck, whereas they were just rubbish in the first Test

I was out yesterday and didn't see any of the play which spared you my comments.

As I usually do, I appreciate VTR's post but a question arises for me - and meant seriously - why didn't we bowl more at the stumps?

[Gooseberry]

I assume because there was an element if trying to stay economical and not allow easy runs down the leg side. But yes it does seem to be a fair question, espeicially with the variable bounce meaning they didnt always need much seam or swing to draw mistrokes.


On a small.positive its good to see Moeen managed to get something with the ball after his batting. It's unlikely to save this game but he's such an up and down confidence player anytjing that makes him more secure is a good sign

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