England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[Duty281]

and even if Eng can muster 250.......chasing 100 down won't be a problem.

Actually, I think it would be. With the pressure of the situation, and the difficult pitch, the West Indies could easily find themselves 50/5 in such a pursuit. Trouble is, getting to 250 will be tough!

103 times the bat was beaten yesterday....extraordinary.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

This isn't a match where you can just look at the scorecard and interpret it. England were put in and didn't bat that well, but not terribly and their score was felt to be competitive. Windies then closed day one after probably the most astonishingly lucky opening partnership of all time. It really was classic not good enough to edge the ball stuff. That did take the sting out of England, but still yesterday the bat was beaten so many times it was ridiculous (Broad has said 103 times which must come from the team analyst)

England will lose this but have genuinely had zero luck, whereas they were just rubbish in the first Test

I was out yesterday and didn't see any of the play which spared you my comments.

As I usually do, I appreciate VTR's post but a question arises for me - and meant seriously - why didn't we bowl more at the stumps?

To be fair, Anderson did a fair bit - but even then LBW decisions given out, which looked plumb were overturned because the bounce was so ridiculous! In that 103 beating the edge, they beat the inside a fair bit too...

[VTR]

Yeah I did wonder about the line. Chase was bowled with a grubber. I suppose with only 180 to play with the 4th/5th line was the balance between economy and threat.

[KP_fan]

England lost the toss and were put in

Ohh boy....who does that these days

But I agree hard to form impressions not watching the game
will catch up on highlights of previous days now

[VTR]

It's certainly a rarity these days, though I think India were put in twice in the recent series in England? Obviously one of those worked out terribly

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Some sad news - Alzarri Joseph’s mother passed away this morning

[KP_fan]

--So I did watch extended highlights for both days.....and Holder said on toss that there was moisture in the pitch is why he batted first...and Root said he would have done same.

There wasn't any more seam movement than there would be on any normal English pitch.....by no means prodigious
BUT.....there was bounce off the length....not all the time.....but every now and then like the ones that got Root & Butler & a couple of batsmen in lower order too....ones that would juts kick off a length

--and these few deliveries that would kick off every now and then continued equally on D2.....just that WI batters negotiated it better.....played late and played far more with gentler hands then English batters IMO

Problem is if you don't come on the front foot on this pitch.....you become suspect to LBW to one that's sneaked in fuller...and if you do...there is this one that will jump off a length suddenly

--The other  problem I seeis Eng's 3rd seamer isn't upto the required quality.....as I said earlier.....Curran reminds me of Irfan pathan...similar left arm medium pace....got picked  up many times for his batting skills even when he didn't look like picking wickets...and when he failed getting runs...was immediately dumped

Curran has to hold his place as a bowler if he has  to last as a test player.....and that he bowled half the number of overs compared to other bowlers... and looked ineffective suggests  he is going Pathan way

WI has overcome largely the wrong choice after toss....and should they get to a lead of 150....I don't see how Eng can save the game....you just need to keep putting the ball on the right length around off stump....and pitch will get the batsmen with one that kicks off every now and then

[KP_fan]

It's certainly a rarity these days, though I think India were put in twice in the recent series in England? Obviously one of those worked out terribly

just once I think....and India won that test

[guildfordbat]

I assume because there was an element if trying to stay economical and not allow easy runs down the leg side. But yes it does seem to be a fair question, espeicially with the variable bounce meaning they didnt always need much seam or swing to draw mistrokes.


On a small.positive its good to see Moeen managed to get something with the ball after his batting. It's unlikely to save this game but he's such an up and down confidence player anytjing that makes him more secure is a good sign

Goose - thanks for your response to my ''why not bowing more at the stumps'' question. You too, Olly and VTR.

I agree with you, goose, about Moeen. I'm normally a lot more supportive of him than you but even I would have left him out for this Test as I feared his confidence would be shot. Pleased to see him fighting back.

I've followed this game so far mainly by the scoreboard and am not ignoring the various warning comments here about doing that. However, still pretty extraordinary that West Indies lead at the end of day two by 85 and look well placed for the win yet the only two half-centuries have been scored by England players.

[Duty281]

England picking away with two wickets in the first hour, and Anderson inching his way to 600. West Indies have only taken the lead up to 102, they're not scoring fast. If Bravo doesn't make a 50, this must be one of the longest test innings not to feature a half-century (currently 123 overs).

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Anything soon and we could have a game on.

[alfie]

Remarkable that West Indies have - nearly - reached 300 without an individual 50. Have to give them a lot of credit for collectively battling away with extreme patience ...

And 300 up now as Bravo hits a six !

Slightly surprised to see Moeen coming on now with 9 down.

[alfie]

And now fifty for Bravo

Very slow ; but potentially match winning. Like to hope England can bat with similar resolve later...

Or now : as a smart stumping does for the last wicket . Lead 119

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Well if England can make around 250, they’ll have a shot - but that’s a rather big “if”...

[Duty281]

Lead 119. Probably too much, but it isn't England that have to bat last (unless they get rolled for 77 again!).

Make 269 + and win the game. Yes, none of the English batsmen are in form, but if they can show the same resolve and cussedness as the Windies, England may just have a chance.

I remember the England-New Zealand test from 2015, where the English reversed a first innings deficit of 130-odd to win by 100-odd runs. Same again, please.

[alfie]

England did well this morning to take the last four for just 34. Though the main three seamers have bowled a lot of overs...really hope the batsmen can for once ensure they aren't dragged out to do it again after inadequate rest...

Slip catching better today. Very fine catch by Burns.

Lead too big ? Probably : but we must live in hope ...bat long , get a similar score as West Indies ...might be a tough target , 180 ? Perhaps I'm dreaming

Five off the first ball anyway...

[guildfordbat]

Hi Alfie - I actually thought it was a decent move by Root to put Moeen on with 9 down. Always on for a rush of blood against the slowie to deliver the last wicket.

Didn't quite happen like that but I thought it was a mistake for Gabriel to take a single off the penultimate ball of a Moeen over. That left Bravo needing to steal a single to save Gabriel from facing Stokes or to hit a boundary to compensate. Ended up not doing either and getting neatly stumped.

Good morning so far from England wrapping up the last 4 wickets at no great cost. However, a lot of damage had already been done. Not looking good for England and a tricky 15 minutes before lunch which Burns and Denly won't relish ....

[Duty281]

The first over reminding everyone just how difficult it will be for England to make 250+.

[alfie]

Yeah guildford , I'll agree with that...Had feared Bravo might take Moeen to the cleaners , but he did the job well.
In fact from what I've seen he's bowled pretty well in this match : perhaps success (at last ) with the bat has raised his confidence ?

Bit of an enigma , Moeen. Talent , and in both roles , such that I rate him one of the obvious selections (except when he is in one of those dreadful slumps !) but his inconsistency is a concern. I did suggest Leach might replace him for this match but he's justified their faith these last couple of days

[alfie]

Roach with a touch of the Stuart Broads there : seemed to actually want that lbw appeal reviewed ! Holder had more sense. Wouldn't have hit a fifth stump

[Duty281]

Four overs seen off relatively comfortably. First tick in the box.

[guildfordbat]

The 4 overs before lunch safely navigated. That's a tick for the openers although Denly still has to get off the mark and has at least 40 minutes before he will ....

[alfie]

And lunch sees the deficit reduced to 110...well done Burns and Denly.

Going to be tough. But a great chance for England's batsmen to show some character. Think the bowlers have already done so this morning ...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Yeah guildford , I'll agree with that...Had feared Bravo might take Moeen to the cleaners , but he did the job well.
In fact from what I've seen he's bowled pretty well in this match : perhaps success (at last ) with the bat has raised his confidence ?

Bit of an enigma , Moeen. Talent , and in both roles , such that I rate him one of the obvious selections (except when he is in one of those dreadful slumps !) but his inconsistency is a concern. I did suggest Leach might replace him for this match but he's justified their faith these last couple of days

Nobody plays well every test- I do think Moeen’s bad games are pointed out a great deal more than others because he has two facets to the game to go wrong. Last test was his first bad game since he came back into the side in the summer, and even then he bowled well second innings I thought. His bowling seems to have become better since the Ashes debacle, for me the clear first choice in that regard

[alfie]

Yeah guildford , I'll agree with that...Had feared Bravo might take Moeen to the cleaners , but he did the job well.
In fact from what I've seen he's bowled pretty well in this match : perhaps success (at last ) with the bat has raised his confidence ?

Bit of an enigma , Moeen. Talent , and in both roles , such that I rate him one of the obvious selections (except when he is in one of those dreadful slumps !) but his inconsistency is a concern. I did suggest Leach might replace him for this match but he's justified their faith these last couple of days

Nobody plays well every test- I do think Moeen’s bad games are pointed out a great deal more than others because he has two facets to the game to go wrong. Last test was his first bad game since he came back into the side in the summer, and even then he bowled well second innings I thought. His bowling seems to have become better since the Ashes debacle, for me the clear first choice in that regard

Some truth in that , Olly. It is not just Nathaniel who puts the boot into Moeen when he has a bad day

Some players seem to attract more than their share of criticism : just ask Ian Bell !

I think one problem with Moeen is that he has been messed around in the batting order - partly because of England's rather muddled selection policies - and this has somewhat undermined this facet of his game . All the evidence is that he is an excellent 7/8 at this level : and a much more modest prospect when he ventures into the top six. He really should be left where he fits and not pushed up the order to accommodate oddly unbalanced teams.
Trouble is his bowling , while generally very decent , is never going to be in the Swann class ; so he's under pressure from other prospects - like Leach. And sometimes the (silly , I think ) theory that he bowls better as the "second spinner" leads them to include another one ...which again forces him up the batting order...

Glad to see him firing in both his roles : they'll need him come August , I think.

[alfie]

Denly dropped on 0... And now nearly lbw...

You wouldn't put a half crown on his being there much longer. (Which raises more selection problems for the next match !)

Some relief with a square cut for a boundary...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Fair to say Gabriel isn’t in a good mood!

[alfie]

Disappointing end for Rory Burns...tame (unnecessary ) dab at the first ball from Holder straight to slip. Undoes a lot of the good work he'd been doing to get England off to a start.

Tough now for YJB to bat at three after keeping wicket for 130 overs .

At least they haven't pushed Moeen back up to three

[alfie]

Incidentally : has anyone heard the details on Foakes and his hand injury ? Didn't take the field again today : will he be OK to bat ?

[guildfordbat]

Incidentally : has anyone heard the details on Foakes and his hand injury ?  Didn't take the field again today : will he be OK to bat ?

Around the start of today, cricinfo understood it was bruising which wouldn't prevent him batting. I do agree though that word has been rather quiet.

[alfie]

Thanks , guildford.  I hope it isn't too bad...would be a pity if he can't play match three , just when he's establishing himself.

To say nothing of what England would do with their batting order.

Denly battling away bravely. Couple of nice shots , too.  Bit early to suggest he's "settled in" though. Ball still doing nasty things often enough I'm not sure anyone will ever be truly "in" on this...

[alfie]

Oh rats...Bairstow bowled by the rampant Holder...

49/2. Going to need something special from someone : the skipper could do with a big innings.

[JDizzle]

According to Jonathan Liew on Twitter, Bairstow has now been dismissed 29 times bowled in Tests. The most of anyone this decade. That seems...unideal for a number three.

[Duty281]

Just looked at the score - oh dear. 35/0 becomes 59/4. England's best batsman, again, doesn't deliver - please, please, please take the captaincy off him.

Stokes and Buttler starting the rebuilding job. 16 run partnership and counting.

[KP_fan]

According to Jonathan Liew on Twitter, Bairstow has now been dismissed 29 times bowled in Tests. The most of anyone this decade. That seems...unideal for a number three.

I saw him on debut and in partnership with KP then against SA & noted Bairstow has a fundamental flaw in his technique.......he plays around his pad closing the face of bat......almost like rolling a stone mill....and falls over..... highly susceptible to clean bowled and LBWs
while he has cleaned up his technique...and that's why he has scored all the runs....it's interesting to see that after 5 odd years the chink still remains
would be  interesting to see how many LBWs he has
He's not an ideal No.3....although he did get runs in Lanka

[KP_fan]

you can't sit on the backfoot on this pitch like Stokes was sitting

[KP_fan]

Ditto Moeen....one or two take off a length and so Moeen is stuck on the back foot waiting for one that will take off.....and he gets a full one

It's better to stay on the front foot and play / nick awkwardly if it rises, then to stay stuck inside the crease
Eng hasn't learnt....too late now

[VTR]

To be fair to Bairstow, he's a number 6 or 7 who has been bumped up to three as a punt. The problem of course is half the rest of the line up are 6s or 7s as well!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

In the time I’ve been watching Norwich humiliate Leeds at Elland Road we’ve lost 6 wickets

Can’t say I’m surprised - or care at this moment! (The yellas <3 )

[VTR]

Well you never know, we might defend the twenty odd we are going to set them to win

[KP_fan]

it was a matter of time for Foakes....staying leg side of the ball to those booming inswingers...standing on the back-foot......if not LBW, then he would have been bowled

He should have been getting forward and coming behind the line of ball....maybe fear of ball hitting injured hand

[Duty281]

Well you never know, we might defend the twenty odd we are going to set them to win

Won't even set them that. An utterly pathetic effort with the bat.

[VTR]

Absolutely woeful attempt from England again. Thoroughly deserved series defeat, have not turned up at all

[KP_fan]

It is really a difficult pitch to bat on.....Eng should have scored a few more in first inning...given they got the lottery of batting first
and certainly not the 306 run pitch that they conceded

Eng will drop to No. 5 in ICC rankings below Aus......if Aus was to win the 2nd test vs Lanka and even if Eng go on to win 3rd test

[KP_fan]

actually Eng will drop below NZ & Aus 2 places from 3 to 5
you lose a lot of ICC ranking points when 3rd team loses to No.8

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For as bad as england have been it should be said, West Indies have been superb - their seamers have the potential to do this, and are finally realising it. Exceptional performance

[Duty281]

Yes, none of the English batsmen are in form, but if they can show the same resolve and cussedness as the Windies, England may just have a chance.

Well...that didn't happen!

[Duty281]

For as bad as england have been it should be said, West Indies have been superb - their seamers have the potential to do this, and are finally realising it. Exceptional performance

It's been a joy to watch Roach/Joseph/Holder/Gabriel bowl, but disappointing that England have sold their wickets so cheaply.

[KP_fan]

In the overall analysis...Eng were about 15 runs short of par score in first inning.....and  conceded 100 runs too many to WI

A chase of 130 would have tested WI in the last inning

Surely they can't keep Curran in the side when they give him only 13 out of 131 overs......when Broad has to bowl 36 & Anderson 30 overs

Eng bowlers took 131 overs to get WI out once.....while WI bowlers bowled out Eng twice in a total of 100 overs
Eng's bowlers lost them the game more than batsmen

[msp83]

West Indies get the job finished in style. A 10 wicket thumping of England following the 381 run thrashing in the first test! Utterly dominant performance from the West Indies, reminding of the glory days.
Jason Holder, who along with Kemar Roach who led the charge with the ball in the England 2nd innings, can indeed be a very proud captain! Absolutely brilliant from the West Indies, truly pathetic from England.

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