England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[guildfordbat]

Meanwhile, the England Lions bowlers are not having much joy either as India A end the second day on 219/1 in response to our 340 all out.

Bowling mainly being shared out between Chappell, Gregory, Porter, Mullaney and Briggs with a couple of overs from Jacks. Can't make a true judgement from here but doesn't seem like an especially dangerous attack pushing for Test selections.

I understand goose's reservations about Duckett but agree with Olly that he merits being under consideration.

Zak Chappell’s figures deserve some credit - 10-2-28-1. Especially the economy, which is normally a problem for him and would have been exposed if he bowled poorly. He took 16 wickets in 4 games in the CC last year, at a ludicrous strike rate of 29 (average of 15). He’s tall, he’s very quick and he can bat. If he can stay fit at Notts next year, keep an eye out.

Fair enough, JD. I don't know Chappell, will look out for him.

[Gooseberry]

CBA to look it up ...I was under the impression that Foakes was left out because of his badly bruised hand, understandably England wouldn't want to risk causing more serious damage. But comments above suggest that hes actually been outright dropped?

I dont think much of Jennings or Denly, but I can also understand why England would want to give any number of possible test openers a go ...its a pretty desperate situation in that regard.

The very fact that Duckett warrants consideration again sums it up really!


As for Chappell the new Botham/Flintoff/Stokes or just another handy home conditions utility player? Time will tell.
Strike rates in D2 last year were pretty absurd all round, batting averages way down. 31bowlers averaged under 20, so whilst good his bowling figures werent abnormal for that season. A very handy batting average last season too ..till you see a high score of 40.
Notts is a great move for him and he certainly needs to be playing in division 1, maybe the new Stuart Broad? Hes got the height, some ability with the bat and his career so far has followed the same school and counties.

[Duty281]

CBA to look it up ...I was under the impression that Foakes was left out because of his badly bruised hand, understandably England wouldn't want to risk causing more serious damage. But comments above suggest that hes actually been outright dropped?

Yeah, according to the media, Foakes is fit to play but has been dropped. The knock-on, of course, is that the Bairstow at 3 experiment has either reached a premature conclusion or has just been postponed. With only two tests to play until the Ashes, it seems odd to chop and change this much.

[alfie]

Chopping and changing indeed ...but to be honest this is exactly the team I expected .
I see the media saying Foakes was fit to play ; but strongly suspect they didn't think his injured finger was up to keeping wicket - in which case it is more logical to bring in a top order bat and move YJB down to a true keeper's batting slot than play Foakes as a batsman (even though his batting form - at seven - suggests he might make as many or more than Denly or Jennings !)
Wood for Curran also makes sense. Yes he has never lived up to the initial hype ; but in truth he hasn't played a lot of Tests....and he does possess a bit of pace - which most people are forever fussing about when complaining about England's bowling selections. He has yet to convince me ; but out of the squad they have there - at least those who are fit - he seems the best selection for this match. Curran may play anyway if Stokes doesn't come up in time : his fitness sounds a bit marginal.
I give them a chance. No Holder will hurt West Indies ; and I can't actually believe that the strengths of these two teams has flipped over as dramatically as suggested by the first two matches . ( Absolutely not to downplay West Indies : their success has been well earned . But I do think they have played two matches very well. while England have had two bad games in a row. It doesn't mean there is some huge gap in ability between the teams.)

And I am not reading too much into team selection in this game as regards next summer. Would suggest all options are open once the home season gets under way...and different conditions will mean several players move up or down in the pecking order.

They probably should have considered conditions a bit more in picking this squad. Post - Sri Lankan tour success arrogance , I think. But that is history now and I just hope they've learned from it...

[king_carlos]

On the one hand Foakes hasn't made himself indispensable with 2 significant scores in 5 test matches. On the other hand I really struggle to see what Buttler, Stokes and Moeen have done with the bat to make themselves indispensable either.

Moeen, Stokes and Buttler have almost 150 test appearances and not one of them averages over 35. Moeen is a bad test from averaging under 30, which for his talent is pretty dire after 57 test matches.

I really hope that England at least pick a reasonable batting order.

- Pick a keeper and put them at 7
- Keep Stokes at 6. A guy who averages 33 after 50 tests doesn't belong in the top 5
- If Buttler is a specialist bat then he needs runs in the top 5
- Moeen should be batting at 8, no higher

If it's another tombola style batting order with Bairstow batting at 5 with the gloves, Buttler at 7 as a specialist batsman, etc it would be fairly frustrating to have seen Foakes dropped.

[VTR]

Looks like England will go with a more traditional lineup this time: top 5, all rounder, wicketkeeper, 4 bowlers (bonus if they are also good batsmen). Surely that has to be the way forward for home Tests and also playing away in non spinning conditions

[alfie]

On the one hand Foakes hasn't made himself indispensable with 2 significant scores in 5 test matches. On the other hand I really struggle to see what Buttler, Stokes and Moeen have done with the bat to make themselves indispensable either.

Moeen, Stokes and Buttler have almost 150 test appearances and not one of them averages over 35. Moeen is a bad test from averaging under 30, which for his talent is pretty dire after 57 test matches

I really hope that England at least pick a reasonable batting order.

- Pick a keeper and put them at 7
- Keep Stokes at 6. A guy who averages 33 after 50 tests doesn't belong in the top 5
- If Buttler is a specialist bat then he needs runs in the top 5
- Moeen should be batting at 8, no higher

If it's another tombola style batting order with Bairstow batting at 5 with the gloves, Buttler at 7 as a specialist batsman, etc it would be fairly frustrating to have seen Foakes dropped.

But Moeen and Stokes are bowlers ; and arguably bowlers who belong in England's first choice XI . What they do with the bat is essentially a useful bonus. And I agree with your bullet points. Provided YJB does bat at 7 they will be doing just that tonight.

Absolutely agree that if they mess with the logical order this time then they've wasted an opportunity ...

[guildfordbat]

Jacks ended on 63 and the rest of the order surrendered first team style leaving them 340 all out.

Billings as all formats captain for the Lions...I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. He does make a lot of sense for the shorter formats but what is he going to impart to the team in terms of developing them as long form players of the type England lack?
Nor is there any danger that he will ever get picked for the test side even if England didnt already have 4 keepers in the side. His spot seems wasted.
,,,

Just going back to the Lions - I think similar comments could be made about Mullaney's place in that side. Whilst acknowledging his all-round usefulness and recent elevation to captaincy, cricinfo refer to this 32 year old as having ''no obvious international pretensions''.

Meanwhile, the Lions bowlers continue to struggle on day 3 against India A despite a couple of wickets now for JD's man Chappell. 384/4 in reply to our 340 all out.

[LondonTiger]

I have no issue with the Lions containing some older heads, especially as it is not run as our second string but as a chance to see what the guys below that can do. Adding a sprinkling of experience to the lineup can allow some guidance and mentoring.

Whether Mullaney was the right person for that, well.......

[guildfordbat]

Tiger - yeah, I understand the ''you'll never win with just kids'' viewpoint and largely go along with it. I would though still prefer someone to Mullaney who wouldn't seem so obviously out of place at Test level.

[VTR]

I wonder if some of these older players are in as they could be the next generation of coaches

[guildfordbat]

I wonder if some of these older players are in as they could be the next generation of coaches

It's good to spot early on people with potential coaching ability but I'm not so sure that should give them an open door to playing for the Lions.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Burns
Jennings
Denly
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson


I am happy Buttler is 5, I guess, but Bairstow goes from 3 to 7 (is that experiment dead?) and Denly goes from opener to number 3 for a man they’ve just dropped as an opener. What’s the point?

They might not have a great pool to pick from, but there doesn’t seem any real plan either. Other than the plan to make good individuals rather than a team

[LondonTiger]

I would be hugely critical, if only I could come up with people who should be there and believe in my heart that they would be better.

[Duty281]

Terrible selection. No cohesiveness or consistency going into a tough test summer + winter. I expect we'll still see Bairstow at 3 come the first Ashes test, and this will probably be Denly's last game for England. I doubt Wood will be playing, either, come the Ashes. It's the standard rubbish selection that comes in a dead rubber match.

Good to see Stokes in - isn't karma a bitch, KP_fan? - but the batting order is totally muddled in the middle.

England batting first. Gulp.

[guildfordbat]

Terrible selection. No cohesiveness or consistency going into a tough test summer + winter. I expect we'll still see Bairstow at 3 come the first Ashes test, and this will probably be Denly's last game for England. I doubt Wood will be playing, either, come the Ashes. It's the standard rubbish selection that comes in a dead rubber match.

Good to see Stokes in - isn't karma a bitch, KP_fan? - but the batting order is totally muddled in the middle.

England batting first. Gulp.

Duty - might be best not to prod KP_f until Stokes has got through the whole game.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I would be hugely critical, if only I could come up with people who should be there and believe in my heart that they would be better.

Whilst the alternatives are poor, it’s all the moving about. Bairstow isn’t gonna get better at three playing 7, Jennings can’t be better at opening than Denly in their eyes again already. Might as well have stuck Jennings at 5 or 6, even if it doesn’t suit him.

I also don’t see much point in Wood, especially as both Curran and Woakes will be ahead of him in terms of selection at home.

[guildfordbat]

I would be hugely critical, if only I could come up with people who should be there and believe in my heart that they would be better.

Whilst the alternatives are poor, it’s all the moving about. Bairstow isn’t gonna get better at three playing 7, Jennings can’t be better at opening than Denly in their eyes again already. Might as well have stuck Jennings at 5 or 6, even if it doesn’t suit him.

I also don’t see much point in Wood, especially as both Curran and Woakes will be ahead of him in terms of selection at home.

Dolph - the guy would have done himself and us some good is your mate Olly's mate Stone. Proper pace from a few sightings of him. A shame for us he's crocked. Wood is Stone's replacement and so I can understand the thinking behind him coming in here. Unfortunately, I'm just not convinced by his quality, effectiveness and fitness.

The England side for this Test seems better balanced than the last two. Unfortunately again though, balance ain't everything - we also need quality which seems to be lacking. With the squad we have out there, we're pretty restricted about who we can bring in - however, I wouldn't have started by dropping our best keeper who also shows definite signs of understanding what batting at Test level is about.

[AlciG]

Bad drop

[wisden]

Joseph into the attack, 22-0 after 13

[alfie]

Jennings had ridden his luck to survive a fine spell from Roach...and then a drink break and a gentle loosener from Paul has done for him.

I really can't see many more Test starts for him. Couple of good hundreds in the sub-continent but he has just proved unable to go on with the job against decent seam bowling. The thought of pitching him up against Starc and Cummins is enough to give young children nightmares...

[Duty281]

Didn't see Jennings' knock, but judging by Cricinfo's commentary, it was another tortured stay. Dropped once, out LBW but missed by the umpire and not reviewed, before getting out in the usual fashion.

So glad a promising player in Foakes was dropped to accommodate someone who has little future in the side.

[guildfordbat]

Bad drop

Just been catching up on delay - I was bit more sympathetic to the slip fielder (Hope?). Ball came through fast and around an awkward shoulder height - more difficult to have to reach a bit than go right up. Mind you, I wouldn't have expected Roach to have been too understanding - good spell for a nil return.

Little effect though - Buster Keaton Jennings (as they're calling him on cricinfo) now gone to Paul's first ball. Caught by Bravo ... at slip! Sorry, but Jennings just doesn't seem up to it at this level.

[wisden]

Jennings is absolutely dreadful, get rid now!

[guildfordbat]

Jennings had ridden his luck to survive a fine spell from Roach...and then a drink break and a gentle loosener from Paul has done for him.

I really can't see many more Test starts for him.  Couple of good hundreds in the sub-continent but he has just proved unable to go on with the job against decent seam bowling.  The thought of pitching him up against Starc and Cummins is enough to give young children nightmares...

Hi Alfie - being reported in this week's the Cricket paper over here (it's a paper that writes about ... ok, you've always been quick to catch on ) that Starc has been sidelined with a ''substantial injury''. Something to do with a torn left pectoral muscle, whatever that's all about.
Heard anything about that?

Apologies for asking on this thread but stlll waiting for Olly to put up one for this year's Ashes.

[guildfordbat]

Burns currently on 26. Around his current Test average. It will do him and us a lot of good if he can properly go on this time. At best, he's been no more than ok so far but has rather gone under the radar due to the understandable concerns about Jennings.

[alfie]

Hi guildford...yes Starc has apparently done himself some damage and looks like being on ice for a bit. They're not - at this stage - showing any concern about the Ashes Series , or even the WC. Probably a bit early to say though...

Burns has done well this morning. I like his application. Hope he can go on after lunch.

[alfie]

Whew ! Denny survives a referral because his glove was off the bat...just ...as the ball brushed it .

46/1. Not bad considering the ball moved around a lot. A lot of credit to Burns

I'm back to bed ...try not to collapse , England...please ?

[guildfordbat]

Cheers, Alfie. I like Starc - semi quoting Sir Geoffrey, ''He goes for a few but he gets a few.''

Yeah, Burns digging in well ... but ''Fifties don't win you games, hundreds do'' [my man Stewart]. So needs to go on and make his hard work count.

That Denly decision was blooming tight. Need to look at it again. Was the hand off the bat?

[AlciG]

The match needs a wicket

[AlciG]

The umpire really needed to see that one

[Hibbz]

Top three all fail again.

Down to Joe Root, who must be given great credit for recently managing to solve his issue of not being able to convert fifties into centuries.

[guildfordbat]

England now in their too usual spot of bother. 69/3.

Burns as too usual not not pushing on and in the hutch before reaching 30. Denly soon following.

Trust Alfie is unaware and dreaming of 300+ for when he wakes. Fear that's the only way we'll get that sort of score!

[Duty281]

Standard top three failure, now the quick bowlers are all over Root and Buttler.

[James100]

Root looking very unsure outside off

[guildfordbat]

Hi James - as a fellow fully fledged member of the Surrey mafia now, what do you reckon of Burns at Test level?

[Born Slippy]

What’s Root’s average as captain? Feels like he’s really been struggling since taking on the responsibility.

[James100]

Guildford - I like that he leaves well and doesn't push outside off in the way Root, Bairstow, etc do. At least when he nicks behind it's usually to a ball he had to play. That said he clearly has issues with the straight ball (I think I saw a stat that he averages 11 against balls on the stumps). I'd keep him in the side for now unless he has a horrible summer but he hasn't convinced. When you add to his issues converting 50s for Surrey, it's hard to see him as someone who can average 40 in Tests. Of course given the openers we've tried since Strauss's retirement, even averaging 30 should keep him around for a while.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Root is just out of form - plain and simple. Could probably do with a few months away.

Short wide long hop, he smashes that to the boundary 99 times out of 100, today he gets himself a little tangled up and edges behind.

[Duty281]

What’s Root’s average as captain? Feels like he’s really been struggling since taking on the responsibility.

41.89 as captain, 52.80 without the captaincy.

[guildfordbat]

Guildford - I like that he leaves well and doesn't push outside off in the way Root, Bairstow, etc do. At least when he nicks behind it's usually to a ball he had to play. That said he clearly has issues with the straight ball (I think I saw a stat that he averages 11 against balls on the stumps). I'd keep him in the side for now unless he has a horrible summer but he hasn't convinced. When you add to his issues converting 50s for Surrey, it's hard to see him as someone who can average 40 in Tests. Of course given the openers we've tried since Strauss's retirement, even averaging 30 should keep him around for a while.

Hi James - yes, that seems pretty much about it. Probably too early yet to be looking to replace him - nonetheless, his scores have been a bit disappointing if not that surprising to me. As you suggest, there also aren't many looking up to the job of properly replacing him. That's a massive change from earlier years when there were so many strong opening bats in the English county game - Atherton touched on this earlier today. One who I think could resurface is Stoneman although anything happening quickly will certainly be dependent upon him starting the new season well.

[msp83]

Could catch up with the play only in between.
West Indies have overall, kept up the pressure, and England haven't quite had the answers. But they have most certainly tried to stick around and fight rather than going to the easy and gung ho approach of smashing everything. As a result, they are at 136-4 in the final session of the day. That any day is better than 77 allout or 93-6.
Stokes moving along to 31, and has taken England to 143-4 now. He's playing a positive game, at least as the top order tried to stick around, Stokes is facing a ball that is now in the 55th over... If he lasts another hour, England should have a pretty decent day after been put in.

[James100]

Yep Stoneman, Gubbins, Mitchell (Robson even?) all options for the Ashes if they start the season well. Roy & Vince also seem to be being considered as opening options as well as Burns and Denly. Great opportunity for any of them, it'll be fascinating to see who grasps it.

[msp83]

Neither Buttler nor Stokes look entirely comfortable out there, but Stokes in particular, has looked better than he has done in some time... He has had a few close shaves, but he has survived and is into the 30s now. Can he make it big this time?

[msp83]

Is Haseeb Hameed completely out of the reckoning as far as that opening position is concerned? Looked a very fine talent when he opened for England in India. Perhaps they gave too much emphasis on his early season county struggle and dropped him, denting his confidence further and pushed him into a rut that has seriously damaged him. Perhaps they should have stuck with him then... Seem to remember someone mentioned here that he's likely to struggle to get a county contract the coming season. Hope he does get one, and if he makes some runs, they should straight away bring him back in... Should any day be a better bet than Jennings.

[Duty281]

He averaged 9.71 last season, so yes he's definitely out of the reckoning for now. Some heavy scoring in the CC this year will get him back in contention for the Ashes, but that is very unlikely. I am hoping Hameed recovers, and that last season was just a monumental blip, because he's the exact type of player that England require in their test side.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

West Indies over rate abysmal yet again

[AlciG]

It's time to break up this partnership

[king_carlos]

On the one hand Foakes hasn't made himself indispensable with 2 significant scores in 5 test matches. On the other hand I really struggle to see what Buttler, Stokes and Moeen have done with the bat to make themselves indispensable either.

Moeen, Stokes and Buttler have almost 150 test appearances and not one of them averages over 35. Moeen is a bad test from averaging under 30, which for his talent is pretty dire after 57 test matches

I really hope that England at least pick a reasonable batting order.

- Pick a keeper and put them at 7
- Keep Stokes at 6. A guy who averages 33 after 50 tests doesn't belong in the top 5
- If Buttler is a specialist bat then he needs runs in the top 5
- Moeen should be batting at 8, no higher

If it's another tombola style batting order with Bairstow batting at 5 with the gloves, Buttler at 7 as a specialist batsman, etc it would be fairly frustrating to have seen Foakes dropped.

But Moeen and Stokes are bowlers ; and arguably bowlers who belong in England's first choice XI . What they do with the bat is essentially a useful bonus. And I agree with your bullet points. Provided YJB does bat at 7 they will be doing just that tonight.

Absolutely agree that if they mess with the logical order this time then they've wasted an opportunity ...

Late responding sorry, alfie. Just catching up on the days play.

If Moeen is playing as a bowler then he needs to bat at 8 is my view, as he is today. I do think he has earnt a place in the side as a bowler (in the absence of a standout spinner) but his batting is often exaggerated at test level. An 8 who averages 30 and can hit centuries is dangerous, a top 7 bat who averages 30 is not.

If Stokes is batting top 6 he isn't a bowler and needs to be more consistent in my view. He's hugely talented, very dangerous as a batsman and thankfully is playing well today. Averaging 33 whilst being guaranteed a spot in the top 6 is not good enough though. Agreed he belongs in the side as a bowler and all rounder but consistency is needed with the bat to stay in the top 6.

I like the batting order today. Jennings and Denly aren't long term options but keeping Buttler at 5 and having Bairstow at 7 as keeper is the right call.

[AlciG]

Windies needed that

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