England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[AlciG]

Damn... no ball

[Gooseberry]

On the one hand Foakes hasn't made himself indispensable with 2 significant scores in 5 test matches. On the other hand I really struggle to see what Buttler, Stokes and Moeen have done with the bat to make themselves indispensable either.

Moeen, Stokes and Buttler have almost 150 test appearances and not one of them averages over 35. Moeen is a bad test from averaging under 30, which for his talent is pretty dire after 57 test matches

I really hope that England at least pick a reasonable batting order.

- Pick a keeper and put them at 7
- Keep Stokes at 6. A guy who averages 33 after 50 tests doesn't belong in the top 5
- If Buttler is a specialist bat then he needs runs in the top 5
- Moeen should be batting at 8, no higher

If it's another tombola style batting order with Bairstow batting at 5 with the gloves, Buttler at 7 as a specialist batsman, etc it would be fairly frustrating to have seen Foakes dropped.

But Moeen and Stokes are bowlers ; and arguably bowlers who belong in England's first choice XI . What they do with the bat is essentially a useful bonus. And I agree with your bullet points. Provided YJB does bat at 7 they will be doing just that tonight.

Absolutely agree that if they mess with the logical order this time then they've wasted an opportunity ...

Late responding sorry, alfie. Just catching up on the days play.

If Moeen is playing as a bowler then he needs to bat at 8 is my view, as he is today. I do think he has earnt a place in the side as a bowler (in the absence of a standout spinner) but his batting is often exaggerated at test level. An 8 who averages 30 and can hit centuries is dangerous, a top 7 bat who averages 30 is not.

If Stokes is batting top 6 he isn't a bowler and needs to be more consistent in my view. He's hugely talented, very dangerous as a batsman and thankfully is playing well today. Averaging 33 whilst being guaranteed a spot in the top 6 is not good enough though. Agreed he belongs in the side as a bowler and all rounder but consistency is needed with the bat to stay in the top 6.

I like the batting order today. Jennings and Denly aren't long term options but keeping Buttler at 5 and having Bairstow at 7 as keeper is the right call.

Bairstows batting 7.
Its closer to a "proper positions" line up, the problem is none of the top 3 are really good enough to warrant a place (Burns excused for the time being) and Bairstows the second best batsman in the side, but down at 7. Robbing Peter to pay Paul really.

Foakes arguably is hard done by, but who drops out for him? One of the three openers? In which case we are no closer to potentially solving a problem we definitely have and back to having 4 keepers in the side. Hes not THAT good a bastman, hes made a few runs down the order, and even Curran managed that for while.

Moeen really shouldnt be batting higher than 7, especially whilst hes struggling for runs. Moving him up has always ended in tragedy. I do feel for Leach though, were Woakes or Curran playing there might've been a stronger case to pick him...although its unlikely England wouldve done. Missing out to Rashid in the first test is the real kicker for him. How different things might've been if he hadn't got injured in the summer.

This does look to be an element of trying the other theory out ...pick as many specialists as you can. They also seem to have batted as cautiously as possible, again signalling a distinct attempt to try something different. It doesn't look to have changed much, yet. And its the bits and pieces middle order making the runs.

England can shuffle this squad as much as they like, but the fact remains that they just aren't bringing through players who can cut it in the top 3 of test cricket anymore. And confidence is rock bottom. This isnt the fault of Stokes at 6 ( I type as he passes 50)

[Gooseberry]

I have no issue with the Lions containing some older heads, especially as it is not run as our second string but as a chance to see what the guys below that can do. Adding a sprinkling of experience to the lineup can allow some guidance and mentoring.

Whether Mullaney was the right person for that, well.......

I guess the issue is that theyve picked youngsters who are barely ready for county cricket and oldsters who are just pretty average at county cricket and dont have a lot to teach them or much chance of a test call up.
Why not pick the top performers in long format cricket who currently aren't in the test side along with some youngsters?


(meanwhile Stokes and Buttler are busy answering the criticism that they havent made enough runs to justify top 6 places with a match turning stand 107/4 now 219/4 )

[guildfordbat]

...


(meanwhile Stokes and Buttler are busy answering the criticism that they havent made enough runs to justify top 6 places with a match turning stand 107/4 now 219/4 )

Looks like Alfie will be waking to a realistic prospect of 300+ after all.

[Duty281]

Good batting from Stokes and Buttler, good test match batting. First time England have had a century stand this series, first time England have been in control with the bat in this series.

400 tomorrow? My, my, that's a dizzying height.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good stuff from England today - top order still a concern, but at least today they are up some deliveries (small wins!) and blunted the new ball - so we didn’t have Root/Buttler coming in after 15/20 overs.

Agree with others that the batting lineup and side looks a lot more balanced this test.

Also good to see Buttler back in the runs - I really think he can bat at 5 long term, and has shown since his summer recall that he finally seems to be cracking batting at test level.

Now if we could whip up some players to bat in the top three we’ll be cooking...

[alfie]

Not too bad...

Actually did pop back out to watch Stokes and Buttler for a while and pretty happy to see them playing , as Duty says , proper Test Match style batting.
Perhaps some credit to the early bats for at least eating up overs , if not for many runs , to tire the bowlers out a bit. Might just have made it a bit easier for the middle order.
Seemed to be enough in the pitch to suggest that anything over 300 should be at least competitive ...

[guildfordbat]

As cricinfo's report says, it was looking ''perilous'' at 107/4. However, good test match batting - as Duty rightly calls it - from Stokes and Buttler to allow England to end day one in a pretty decent place.

In line with Alfie's post, Willis was giving some credit to Burns and Dely for grinding out so many overs. I do get that but still want more from Burns. His attritional role wouldn't have been getting much of a mention from Willis if we had caved to 190 all out as looked more than possible when the fourth wicket fell.

Willis also emphasised how slow the outfield was and reckoned that probably denied us 30 runs which makes our current score all the more better.

[king_carlos]

Excellent innings so far by Stokes. Interesting to see him taking guard further across his stumps again. I hope he goes big. 13 tests without a century is too long for a player of his talent.

England can shuffle this squad as much as they like, but the fact remains that they just aren't bringing through players who can cut it in the top 3 of test cricket anymore. And confidence is rock bottom. This isnt the fault of Stokes at 6 ( I type as he passes 50)

Sadly true from the current squad.

It's a shame Nick Browne had his first poor summer in the CC last year. If he scores runs early with Essex then he's a good option for an opener in English conditions at least. Batting alongside Cook may well help him come the summer.

It's good to see Ben Duckett get some runs for the Lions in the 1st innings after a poor CC summer with Northants. I struggle to see Duckett as a test opener though.

I think the England selectors will be praying an opener they haven't already discarded scores big early in the CC.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If we are looking ahead to the summer I think you’ve basically got this;

Opener
Opener
Three
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Third seamer
Broad
Anderson

Named people in my eyes are nailed on. Harsh on Foakes, but I’m not sure he’s so much better with the gloves than Bairstow that it justifies moving him from his preferred position with the bat

Openers - you’re basically picking form players. If Burns scores runs he probably gets first dig, then it’s anyones guess from there!

Three - honestly if he scores runs in the CC, it might be worth giving Vince a go. He’s the most talented naturally, and if he has gone away and worked on stopping those mental lapses of concentration then he’s the best option. Otherwise again it’s anyones guess!

Third seamer - many will see this as a straight decision between Woakes and Curran in england...but I’ll throw a wildcard into the hat - what about Jofra Archer? His pace and ability to move the ball might trump those two...albeit he is slightly less able with the bat. Certainly an interesting decision ahead, and probably the only one in which we’ll be leaving out a good player from the XI

[VTR]

Good post Olly, agree with all that. On the game I'm hand, I'm not sure England did much that different, maybe just players getting a bit more used to the conditions and the fine margins going their way. It must be karma!

[guildfordbat]

Olly - your Holy Grail of Stokes, Foakes and Woakes was almost in your grasp and then you discard it to go elsewhere. With sad memories of Ansari, you do seem to enjoy the chase more than the capture!

The game of square pegs (and sometimes too many of them) into round holes continues.

IF we had a decent and clear top 3, I would be more than happy with either Foakes or Bairstow keeping and batting at 7. Foakes would just edge it for me, a better keeper whilst his batting shows a definite understanding of what is needed at Test level and imo could well improve further.

However, we don't have a decent and clear top 3. I therefore feel it's time to stop pussyfooting around with certain players and their preferences and instead inform them that, if they wish to continue playing in the team, they need to fit in where the team most needs them.

Root therefore goes to 3 in my line up with Bairstow playing solely as a batsman at 4. If Bairstow can't make a go of that, he can return to the county game and hope to make a challenge from there to regain Foakes' spot.

I appreciate Carlos' point about the selectors being reluctant to return to any previously discarded players. However, with the cupboard so bare, I don't believe they should automatically be overlooked. There's so much egg on the selectors' faces from this Windies fiasco that they shouldn't worry about a bit more from going back to give someone another crack - after all, it might even work!

I do think Stoneman should be in their thinking to open again. It's now in the public domain - Surrey have confirmed it which is why I think it's ok to mention it here - that Stoneman's wife had a very difficult pregnancy last summer with the undoubted suggestion that it affected his form. I don't know any further details other than things ended happily with the birth of the child and, although not normally in the Mr Softy camp (as probably shown in my comments about Root and Bairstow above), am prepared to accept Surrey's comments at face value. There's an article in this week's the Cricket paper along the lines that ''Stoneman has eyes fixed on England return''. In truth, the article doesn't say much and is rather limp - it would be more newsworthy if Stoneman was no longer interested in England. Nonetheless, it shows I'm not alone in my thoughts here.

I'll leave it at that on Stoneman. I'm not running the Campaign for Rocky's Recall (that sort of thing is Olly's bag ) but, IF he can get big early season runs, I wouldn't be amazed to see him back in the mix.

All again subject to CC runs but another batsman who might merit a return is Westley. I thought he was jettisoned a bit quickly whilst the likes of Malan and, tbf, Stoneman were given more opportunity around the same time. If Westley did come back, that would allow Root to bat at 4 although that's not uppermost in my reasoning.

As regards the third seamer, I'm one of the few who has been more taken with Tom Curran than his kid brother Sam. Tom is a little down the pecking order currently but I wouldn't write his chances off. He doesn't shirk work or responsibility and I always like that.

The guy I would like to get a debut on the right track is Stone. Only seen him briefly on tv but he looked the real deal, full of pace and targeting the right areas. His fitness does seem a concern though.

[guildfordbat]

Good post Olly, agree with all that. On the game I'm hand, I'm not sure England did much that different, maybe just players getting a bit more used to the conditions and the fine margins going their way.  It must be karma!

VTR - see what you did there!

[LondonTiger]

As someone who was busy elsewhere, could any kind soul explain the process that saw Stokes reprieved?

I know he was back in the dressing room and that a recent law change means he could still be recalled if the next delivery had yet to be bowled. However I cannot believe that he would have left the field if the onfield umpires had instigated the review.

[guildfordbat]

As someone who was busy elsewhere, could any kind soul explain the process that saw Stokes reprieved?

I know he was back in the dressing room and that a recent law change means he could still be recalled if the next delivery had yet to be bowled. However I cannot believe that he would have left the field if the onfield umpires had instigated the review.

I didn't see it live either but saw the ''catch'' afterwards in edited highlights. I got the impression that Stokes walked briskly off without looking back whilst the umpires were slow in instigating the review leading to England team mates pointing him back to the crease as soon as he met them. Jason Roy would probably have broken his bat in the time it took!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I see KP has pitched his top three of Burns, Roy and then Denly at three. Roy seems like an “out of ideas” idea. Could work out well, but seems a punt. Maybe there’s nothing but punts left.

I’m of the opinion that they may as well go to any in form openers.

On Archer: I remember an ashes series where a newly qualified overseas player was debated for a spot in the side. The conservative approach was old Thorpe, the approach that probably touched a tight series in England’s way was that foreigner.

However, I really do think Woakes would take wickets at home and it’s not an area where it really needs big change this second.

[alfie]

Not the ideal start to day two for England...good ball from Gabriel but Buttler's footwork was - well , missing.

Seems everyone who plays for Surrey is in consideration for the top three spots , if media chatter is to be believed

I see guildford wants to push the skipper up to three whether he likes it or not : it may be he has the best chance of succeeding there ; but I'm not so sure now , with him rather scratching for runs , is a great time to move him there ? Also not sure following him with two spare keepers and the all rounder from 4-6 isn't just perpetuating the "bits and pieces " selection we've all been complaining about...but that can all wait for the northern summer now. When I maintain current form should be of major importance.

Some serious heat from Gabriel this morning !

[alfie]

And nearly another one for Gabriel as he fails to cling in to a low return chance from Bairstow ...

Not looking easy for England this morning. Stokes has been squared up once or twice too , though he's also been ready to pounce on anything loose...79 now out of 256/5.

Gabriel off...Roach back. Old-style Caribbean pace pressure...

[Duty281]

If we are looking ahead to the summer I think you’ve basically got this;

Opener
Opener
Three
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Third seamer
Broad
Anderson

I still think Bairstow will be in the top three come the Ashes. I reckon Burns is nailed on to start the first Ashes test, but the other opening spot is up for grabs. Denly will surely be discarded, and Jennings likely will be, leaving Stoneman/Robson/Roy contesting it.

[alfie]

Oh dear ...Stokes gone to a skied pull and an excellent running/diving take by Dowrich !

Trouble : Duty's hopefully projected 400 looks a long way off. Even my 300 needs some work...

[Duty281]

Bit of a rickety start for England with Stokes and Buttler departing. 400 is a long way off now.

[alfie]

Good first hour for West Indies

2/26. Only twelve overs , mind - which I suppose is about par for them Brathwaite's match fees may yet end up taking a hit...

[guildfordbat]

Not the ideal start to day two for England...good ball from Gabriel but Buttler's footwork was - well , missing.

Seems everyone who plays for Surrey is in consideration for the top three spots , if media chatter is to be believed  

I see guildford wants to push the skipper up to three whether he likes it or not : it may be he has the best chance of succeeding there ; but I'm not so sure now , with him rather scratching for runs , is a great time to move him there ? Also not sure following him with two spare keepers and the all rounder from 4-6 isn't just perpetuating the "bits and pieces " selection we've all been complaining about...but that can all wait for the northern summer now. When I maintain current form should be of major importance.

Some serious heat from Gabriel this morning !

Hi Alfie - tbf, I don't think I've been complaining about having Bairstow and Buttler in the same side as Foakes with the latter keeping provided the first two are good enough bats to be there on that basis alone (which they probably are) and accept Foakes is first choice gloveman. If anyone doesn't accept that - and I'm not sure that Bairstow does - he can sling his hook.

I take your point about moving Root up to 3 now whilst he's out of form and runs but you'll need to tell me some time who fits in there.

I haven't seen all the media chatter referred to in your post. I assume that's Burns, Stoneman and now Roy. Similar to his ODI performances, I reckon Roy could be brilliant in Tests at times and ordinary at others. There's always some risk with every debutant but there's probably more if Roy is going to be picked - certainly not someone to be regularly relied upon despite his undoubted skill and power.

Lest I be accused of usual Surrey bias with my earlier highlighting of Stoneman, I did flag some doubts about Burns when this tour squad was first announced. I feel they've largely been borne out so far although hidden somewhat by the greater failings of others.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

48 innings without a century for the hapless and quite frankly talentless Moeen Ali. Bairstow cleaned bowled for the 30th time in his Test career.

[alfie]

Hi guildford...

I've not brought England any luck this morning ! To be fair , West Indies have bowled very well . But 300 now looks very doubtful ...a disappointing collapse.

Brings me back to your selection points : hey I don't really mind having three or four keepers in the side either ...as long as they can all do a job with the bat. But I'm not sure just swapping Bairstow and Root around at 3/4 makes much difference ? Question surely is whether either are suited to those spots ? (And no , I don't have a brilliant suggestion for three either)
I would have persisted with the Bairstow three , Foakes keeping , experiment : but as I said yesterday I think they aren't sure Foakes' injured hand is up to keeping ...or at least don't want to risk it.
Bairstow seemed rather out of sorts with the bat this morning : I don't think moving him all around the order is doing him any favors . Bit like Moeen.

All out 277

Should have stayed in bed...

[Duty281]

What a miserable effort this morning. Bairstow bowled again. England deserve to lose 3-0. Embarrassing.

[guildfordbat]

Yeah, good from the West Indies but miserable from England as you guys say. There seemed an inevitability about the fall of the last few wickets.

Alfie - yeah, I guess the Bairstow experiment at 3 could be pursued but I got the impression that had been ditched with this latest selection.

[VTR]

Not another shocking collapse! Still, that might actually be a half decent score

[guildfordbat]

Not another shocking collapse! Still, that might actually be a half decent score

Hi VTR - yes, it could be but the disappointment remains that we got into a position where it should have been a lot more and then blew it.

[VTR]

Yeah, I can't defend it really. Its supposed to be a long batting lineup but there's a real weakness there that can only be a mental/confidence thing

[LivinginItaly]

Double wicket maiden for the hapless and talentless Ali

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Double wicket maiden for the hapless and talentless Ali

Bowling average of 36. Yeah talentless

[msp83]

England let a decent position slip in the morning. Then the West Indies openers Kraigg Brathwaite and John Campbell put on yet another 50 partnership, Campbell in the course of which hit James Anderson out of the attack. Then a double wicket over from Moeen Ali shifted the balance back in favour of England. And Anderson's back to test the new batsmen the best 2 WI batsmen probably, Darren Bravo and Shai Hope.

[LivinginItaly]

While not a world class spinner by any stretch of the imagination he is not talentless.

39 wickets in 8 games at an average of 23 since his recall to the side.

[LivinginItaly]

While not a world class spinner by any stretch of the imagination he is not talentless.

39 wickets in 8 games at an average of 23 since his recall to the side.

[LivinginItaly]

Wood gets a wicket with a 92mph delivery.

[LivinginItaly]

Another for wood. 2 in 2 first for Ali and now for Wood.

[msp83]

West Indies doing an England collapsing big time. From 57 for 0, they are down to 59-4. That is 4 wickets for 2 runs. Bravo is still there and Hetmyer has joined him. There is Dowrich to come and Keemo Paul is considered a bit of an all-rounder. But With a major top order collapse and no Jason Holder in there, England should be able to rap this innings up for not a lot more from here.

[JDizzle]

Nothing better in cricket than seeing someone bowling really quick. Normally it is against England!

[LivinginItaly]

A third for wood just before tea. By all accounts he is bowling seriously quickly.

[LondonTiger]

How much longer is Wood's new run-up?

[VTR]

Wow, 606v2 favourite Mark Wood doing the business. To be fair, this is the Mark Wood that is normally promised, but his 82mph twin usually turns up

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Wood is bowling sharply here, but if an English bat had played the shots Chase/Hetmyer did they’d currently be getting the “talentless” treatment from Nathaniel

[VTR]

I like Sam Curran, but this vs 80mph as a change bowler. To be fair, no one seen Mark Wood bowl like this before. It's the most fiery spell of English pace bowling since Big Devon got smashed on the head

[JDizzle]

I like Sam Curran, but this vs 80mph as a change bowler. To be fair, no one seen Mark Wood bowl like this before. It's the most fiery spell of English pace bowling since Big Devon got smashed on the head

The big lad from Durham might have a thing to say about that! Harmison’s 7-12 in 04 was pretty special.

Keemo Paul is not trying to see Wood off...

[VTR]

Yeah it was, and Flintoff with that famous working over of Ponting, and Broad of course with some famous spells. I would say though, none of those were touching 95mph and literally having the batsmen terrified of the short stuff

[alfie]

Ha ...I've missed all the good stuff

Though that's three for Moeen...saw the highlights of Wood's little spell and he couldn't have picked a better time to come good ! This pitch seems to suit him.
Perhaps he might have played in Antigua ?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ha ...I've missed all the good stuff

Though that's three for Moeen...saw the highlights of Wood's little spell and he couldn't have picked a better time to come good ! This pitch seems to suit him.
Perhaps he might have played in Antigua ?

Potentially - but I doubt it’d have made much difference to the outcome of the game itself.

Moeen has bowled nicely again for a talentless player

[Duty281]

Wow, Wood actually bowling fast. And such devastating results to go with it. England might...win a test?

[VTR]

Let's not forget Wood still averages over 36, so sadly that puts him in the talentless category

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