England - the winter tours thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.

[robbo277]

Roy's 50 comes in 30 balls, England starting this innings really well. 361 is a long way away though, a couple of wickets could quickly change the game.

Good to see Stokes getting Carlos Braithwaite too!

[Duty281]

West Indies quickly learning that the key statistic isn’t the number of sixes they hit, but rather the number of dot balls they consumed. England have only hit one six in the first fifteen overs, but are well ahead of the rate regardless.

[Gooseberry]

Wow ... maybe shouldve watched this! West Indies seem to have taken a leaf out of Englands approach and have set a formidable total. Gayles first century against a decent side since 2013, rolling back the years. Its also the most balls hes faced in an innings of cricket since 2015! Once again showing the application as a team thats maybe been lacking in all formats prior to this visit.

England making good progress toward knocking off another mammoth score ...but it would still be a feat to make it.

[king_carlos]

Cracking innings by Roy. Yes it's a road but he's batted very well.

For such a talented player his aim should be to get that average up above 40.

[Duty281]

England in cruise control. Roy’s 100 coming off 65 balls...that’s how you bat on this wicket. West Indies at least 50 runs short.

[JDizzle]

West Indies quickly learning that the key statistic isn’t the number of sixes they hit, but rather the number of dot balls they consumed. England have only hit one six in the first fifteen overs, but are well ahead of the rate regardless.

Great stat from the WT20 in 2016 - of the Super 10 teams WI had the highest dot ball % for the tournament and England the lowest and they met in the final. More than one way to skin a cat!

[Duty281]

West Indies quickly learning that the key statistic isn’t the number of sixes they hit, but rather the number of dot balls they consumed. England have only hit one six in the first fifteen overs, but are well ahead of the rate regardless.

Great stat from the WT20 in 2016 - of the Super 10 teams WI had the highest dot ball % for the tournament and England the lowest and they met in the final. More than one way to skin a cat!

How England didn't win that tournament was bizarre.

[robbo277]

Agreed. Fair play to the West Indies, but they relied on their number 8 to come in and score 34 off 10 to win that final. At 107-6 requiring 49 from 19, England win 99 times out of 100. Couldn't believe they managed it!

[JDizzle]

They did beat England earlier in that tournament too - as well as Sri Lanka, South Africa and India in the semis. In fact they only lost to Afghanistan! They are clearly doing something right in their methods. They also had the highest dot ball % when they won in 2012 too - you just need the power hitters to make up for it.

[robbo277]

If double it at 30 is still a thing, then West Indies are 60 short. In truth, England still need 140 runs. They could do with either of these guys batting through, with Stokes, Buttler and Ali still to come in and able to score freely.

They did beat England earlier in that tournament too - as well as Sri Lanka, South Africa and India in the semis. In fact they only lost to Afghanistan! They are clearly doing something right in their methods. They also had the highest dot ball % when they won in 2012 too - you just need the power hitters to make up for it.

Not everyone can hit 12 sixes in an innings, but every player with that talent should be able to rotate the strike. If you're hitting 84 runs off 15 of your balls and only 51 off your other 114, then it feels like a large number of those latter ones have been wasted.

[Duty281]

Root becomes the fourth English player to reach 5,000 ODI runs, and the one with the highest average (by far).

[Gooseberry]

So much for troubling wickets! This game will do England some good regardless of how it pans out, feeling the pressure of a big chase like this is all good experience.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Root becomes the fourth English player to reach 5,000 ODI runs, and the one with the highest average (by far).

Still maintain Root is the key to this ODI batting lineup - he’s incredibly underrated in the 50 over format for me, probably his best format as a bat

[robbo277]

England down to under a run a ball and we'd have to go some to lose it. All 4 of the batsmen going over a run-a-ball.

An impressive performance by England to chase such a high total. Regardless of the attack, the pitch and the outfield, scoreboard pressure always plays a part - see the Scotland game last year. England have managed this well, Roy smashing us above the rate and Root and Morgan scoring nicely to keep us moving towards this target.

[JDizzle]

They did beat England earlier in that tournament too - as well as Sri Lanka, South Africa and India in the semis. In fact they only lost to Afghanistan! They are clearly doing something right in their methods. They also had the highest dot ball % when they won in 2012 too - you just need the power hitters to make up for it.

Not everyone can hit 12 sixes in an innings, but every player with that talent should be able to rotate the strike. If you're hitting 84 runs off 15 of your balls and only 51 off your other 114, then it feels like a large number of those latter ones have been wasted.

It is a mindset thing though - if your intent is to go out there and rotate the strike a lot, you are going to miss out on balls that could be hit to the boundary. And as long as they have clarity of thought in that is how they will approach the game, then I see no reason why it can't translate from the T20 game to the 50 over game.

Having said that - and I didn't see the Windies innings - a few people have said that Gayle's innings was borderline unacceptable. Turning down 2s etc. that were just easily there for the taking. That is a different thing entirely IMO.

And 360 might have been enough if they haven't fielded like absolute drains in this game. That is a far bigger problem.

[Duty281]

Only six '2s' and a mammoth 143 dot balls - that's why the Windies lost this game. Gayle played the worst good innings you could possibly see, and he is clearly unfit (and has been for a while) and incapable of dashing for the quick single or the well-run three. In the context of the game, scoring 135 off 129 is actually quite pedestrian, although the vast majority of the blame should go to his teammates, only one of whom passed 40.

[Gooseberry]

Absolute masterclass with the bat from England. Consistent scoring ....and the Root gets out with 1 run needed

[Duty281]

Solid win. Two excellent innings from Roy and Root (shame he couldn't remain unbeaten) to win the game.

[Gooseberry]

Only six '2s' and a mammoth 143 dot balls - that's why the Windies lost this game. Gayle played the worst good innings you could possibly see, and he is clearly unfit (and has been for a while) and incapable of dashing for the quick single or the well-run three. In the context of the game, scoring 135 off 129 is actually quite pedestrian, although the vast majority of the blame should go to his teammates, only one of whom passed 40.

Woah that really is a STAT isnt it.

I must admit I was surprised by how long Gayle had managed to stay in, given he hasnt batted that length of time in years and simply wont have kept up the endurance levels playing in mid level T20 franchises. That makes a lot more sense of things, shows he still has some real class on flat tracks but will be increasingly problematic where pinching those quick singles because more important where the balls moving around more and clean hitting harder.

[alfie]

Pretty comfortable chase- down of an (apparently) stiff target...

Watched the first dozen overs and figured they would do it easily enough. Going to be hard to stop them in the WC looking at that : just the nagging fear that the bowling isn't good enough to retrieve the situation if they should have one of those collapses in a knock out game (?)
But today it is just hats off to Roy , Root & co

[Mad for Chelsea]

You should always hesitate to call a score of 360 under par, but this did feel like a pitch where England would have been scoring 400+, and they chased that down with very little fuss, despite a bit of faffing around from Stokes at the end (was trying to hit it too hard I thought). Good centuries from Roy and Root, thought Morgan played nicely too, and a decent cameo from Bairstow.

Duty's right to highlight the dot ball percentage. WI was close to 50% while England's was in the low 30s. That's a big difference. Also correct to say Gayle's fitness (or lack thereof) meant quite a few runs left out there. There was one spectacularly poor bit of cricket where he hit Rashid over wide mid-off and simply stood there, expecting it to go for four. In fact, Roy came around to make what was ultimately a relatively comfortable stop, before Gayle finally trotted through for a single. Should have been an easy 2, and pushing 3. He then compounded it by playing out two dot balls at the start of the next over and being bowled off the third. Noticeable that as soon as he got out Brathwaite and Nurse ran a quick 2, was the first time I could remember England's fielders being put under pressure. WI's fielding was also poor.

Looking ahead, England will think about what they could do better with the ball. There's a theory going around from the Big Bash that Plunkett is just starting to feel his age, and has lost a bit of nip. Certainly today he wasn't at his best, though he should have had Gayle out early on. Stokes bowled really well (3-37 off 8 on that pitch is heroic), and despite getting whacked in his last two overs so did Rashid. Morgan will certainly think he should have thrown him the ball earlier, and I expect he will in the next game. If the pitch is like this one - and by all reports it seems to be - I'd be tempted to bring in Curran for Plunkett or Wood. Just think his variations are better suited to these super flat pitches. Expect we'll see some rotation as the series goes on anyway.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Also, remember when Roy was being kept out of the ODI side by *checks notes* Cook, Bell, Ballance and Moeen (up the order)?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Wondering what people think about the makeup of the ODI side, the only real question left ahead of the World Cup for me - ie. (5 bowlers plus Root, or 6 bowlers)

Personally I prefer this XI;

Roy
Bairstow
Hales
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Seamer (Wood currently)

than this XI

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Plunkett/Willey/Curran
Wood

I think that Hales brings more to the side than a Plunkett/Willey type bowling 6/7 overs per innings does, he's simply a better cricketer. I think in ODIs you can quite easily get 3-5 overs of relatively economic bowling from Root if you need to find a few overs from somewhere if one of the 5 main bowlers is getting hit about.

What do others think?

[alfie]

Hmm. If it is going to be very flat pitches I prefer the extra bowling option. Most of them can bat anyway and I'm not sure they gain a lot by nudging Buttler and Stokes down to 6 and 7 - they can both add a lot of runs quickly if they get a decent number of overs to bat : if the team has one of their famous collapses then I'm not sure one extra bat will stop it anyway !

Can mix and match for the pitch / opponent , no ? And fielding skills come into it...

[Gooseberry]

I think this game kinda answered that question, they just don't need the extra batsman if they are chasing sub 400, and if they are chasing over 400 then the bowling and fielding needs to have a serious word with itself.

Having a range of bowling options and players who can create wickets on any surface is the key for them taking the next step.

Echoing the comments above Plunkets place has been questioned elsewhere and his dropped pace did seem to leave him a bit exposed. Wood didnt bowl quite as fast as he did in tests either, and the young West Indies quick showed that there was some serious zip available. Archers stock rose by 5% IMO. The left arm question remains too, but theres no-one quite good enough to demand inclusion for the sake of that variety.

Theres always an argument for just picking your 11 best players, but having Hales in might mean someone playing as a fielder and if a bowler gets injured or has an off day (Plunkett and Moeen!) leave the team badly exposed. England are blessed by all rounders and have the luxury of a deep batting line up with 6 bowlers, stick with it.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Going to go with the others on this one Olly. I think having six genuine bowlers who could get through 10 overs gives you more options, and 4+2 is a nice balance in most cases. England have the luxury of being able to field these while still deploying a formidable batting line-up (comfortably the strongest in the world), largely because we have two or three genuine all-rounders, and our bowlers are all competent batsmen.

I just feel that after a match where they've chased down 360 with ease I'm not sure strengthening tha batting is the priority . On paper I do think Hales is probably worth a spot, but as I've emphasised before, it's not about picking your best XI players, it's about picking your best team, and for me England's team is better when they go with the six bowlers.

Harsh on Hales, who'd get into any other ODI side in the world except possibly India (though you'd think they'd find a spot for him at 4 maybe, or 3 with Kohli moving down one). Nice problem to have though.

Generally, that's how England have been setting up for the last four years when everyone's been available, and I don't think that will change now. Of course, if say (horrible thought) Stokes were to get injured, then that would change things.

[VTR]

What world are we in where everyone expected England to chase down 360 and they did it quite comfortably. I don't like it, bring back Cook, Bell and Trott as the top three

[Gooseberry]

What world are we in where everyone expected England to chase down 360 and they did it quite comfortably. I don't like it, bring back Cook, Bell and Trott as the top three

Interestingly its "only" their fourth highest second innings total since the revolution came in 2015, but the highest they've made when winning.

The expectations were a bit OTT in that context, but they've shown they really dont have anything to fear from batting second against big scores. Mentally this will have done them some good, and they already displayed the same kind of composure you see from India. No bashing around chasing 10 an over when consistently scoring at 7 is enough.

That said things could've gone differently if the West Indies fielding had been up to scratch. England let a few chances go themselves too but its this aspect that Holder chose to focus on rather than Gayle being lazy and their fast bowler not being able to hit a barn door.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Yeah the West Indies fielding was shocking, and has been noted, the running between the wickets was also poor. Whilst obviously Gayle still has some talent with the bat, the way they were trying to hide him in the field reminded me of how a club team will try to hide the 60 year old who's still hanging on...essentially leaves you with 10 fielders

[VTR]

Gayle shouldn't be playing. Yesterday was some flat track bullying, but he was appalling in the power play and as stated a shockingly bad fielder in a side that are poor to start with

[LondonTiger]

England T20 squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain, Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Sam Billings (Kent), Tom Curran (Surrey), Joe Denly (Kent), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Chris Jordan (Sussex), Dawid Malan (Middlesex), Liam Plunkett (Surrey), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Joe Root (Yorkshire), David Willey (Yorkshire), Mark Wood (Durham).

[LondonTiger]

Gayle shouldn't be playing. Yesterday was some flat track bullying, but he was appalling in the power play and as stated a shockingly bad fielder in a side that are poor to start with

Gayle was 9 from 33 balls when he was dropped by Roy. It is impressive that he was able to get it back to a run a ball after that start but, in part aided by good bowling from Wood in the powerplay, his lack of runs in those first 10 overs meant that his team were never quite able to create a good enough score. A better bowling and fielding team could have defended that, but they can only work with what they have. 

I reckon the best way to stop Gayle scoring will be to makw WI bat field first. He will be too tired.

[Gooseberry]

Lack of imagination in the t20 squad. I'm surprised they aren't wrapping a few in cotton wool although I guess they will rotate a bit.
It's guys like Billings and Jordan who have zero chance of making the world cup squad or any real future, or credit in the bank, in any format that dissapoint me. Would like to see Denly and Curran play at least.

[LondonTiger]

Lack of imagination in the t20 squad. I'm surprised they aren't wrapping a few in cotton wool although I guess they will rotate a bit.
It's guys like Billings and Jordan who have zero chance of making the world cup squad or any real future, or credit in the bank,  in any format that dissapoint me. Would like to see Denly and Curran play at least.

I had not noticed Jordan in there, just Malan and Billings - which as you say are not inspiring. On the radio Stokes and Buttler were described as being rested but no mention of Woakes.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Jordan's an important part of England's T20 team to be fair. It's really the only format he's any good at (at international level), but he's definitely worth his spot there. I'm not sure we should necessarily be using the T20s as WC try-outs (assuming Goose means the 50 over WC). It's a bit odd that Buttler gets rested, but Moeen, Root, Bairstow aren't. Stokes being rested makes some sense. Malan had a really good T20 debut a while back, and not sure he's played any since then, so why not? Billings is one of those players England seem convinced will come good at some stage. It's a strategy that worked well with the likes of Roy and Buttler, less well with say Jennings (so far).

In general, England seem to have prioritised the T20s less over the last year or two, putting extra focus on the 50 over stuff with the world cup in mind. This has led to some at times slightly muddled selections (e.g. Hales in the middle-order, though he did quite well there actually). I think after the 50 over WC we'll see them working harder on getting their best team out more often than not in the T20s.

[king_carlos]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/21/england-chris-silverwood-head-coach

A few interesting bits in amongst that.

Silverwood is being considered as head coach. Ottis Gibson and Mickey Arthur are also options.

The structure for the world cup will be Bayliss with 3 assistants beneath him. Those assistants will be Collingwood (replacing Farbrace but not as number 2), Silverwood and Thorpe.

Giles wants to continue with that structure after the world cup. So he's looking for one head coach for all formats, with 3 assistants working beneath that head coach.

Has Ramprakash been moved out of the set-up if Thorpe is with the first team? Or is Ramps in a more developmental role working with the Lions and between the counties?

[alfie]

Yeah the West Indies fielding was shocking, and has been noted, the running between the wickets was also poor. Whilst obviously Gayle still has some talent with the bat, the way they were trying to hide him in the field reminded me of how a club team will try to hide the 60 year old who's still hanging on...essentially leaves you with 10 fielders

Ouch !   I "hide" at slip a lot , myself  ... have some empathy for the old boys , Olly  

But yes , Gayle does cost them in the field. Debatable whether his runs make his presence worthwhile ? Century , big finish...but ate up a lot of dots. Might be better to go with the younger ones but I guess they are looking at getting one last tournament out of him...

[VTR]

The other thing with Gayle, is he picks and chooses when he wants to play. There's a World Cup and he wants it to be his farewell party. He really should have been told to kindly **** off

[Gooseberry]

The return of the big stars always was going to be a bit divisive but you can really see that with Gayle, his ego is bigger than his age and gut and hes just plain lazy. The problem is he clearly still can hit the ball cleaner than anyone and does have that x factor still. The influence of team sponsors might be felt too.
Leaving him out of the squad would be a tough call, but England managed to ignore Pietersen and do just fine at the last world cup win the champions trophy T20 world cup rebuild with hungry young motivated well behaved players.
The centrally contracted players showed in the test series that they do have the potential to play as a team and produce good cricket. Moving on from the likes of Samuels probably helped in that, and Gayle really does seem to have gone down his path now into trading off a bit of natural ability and reputation.
If they are going to stick with him then it has to be on the basis he puts in some really hard work to up his fitness and attitude over the coming months. It doesnt seem very likely he would though, theres nothing in his personality to suggest he has the mentality to think he even needs to try.
On the other hand ...Its odd that a guy could hit a rapid century and be talked about as a problem for what is a pretty bad side. Their record under Holder has been awful, they didnt even make it into the champions trophy. Talk about his age is a bit exaggerated, hes only a couple of years older than Dhoni and Anderson (who's being asked to bowl 30+ overs of seam in an innings still) and clearly still is as physically strong as anyone. His slow start is absolutely typical of how hes always played, taking a few overs to size up the pitch before letting loose, and its an approach that has worked very well for him. The only recent time they did anything of note in limited overs cricket was the T20 world cup, with Gayle and only 2 other players in this squad. Old men won that. Can they afford not to have him? It certainly would've been a lot easier choice to make had he not made a big score.

Overall though I do think it would've been a lot better for the team if he had retired already and not pout himself in the mix. The best chance they have of succeeding is getting the team to stand up as they did in the test series (noting that a good chunk of those players wont be in the WC squad Gayle and co or not) and take individual responsibility to play for the team. Having these big dominant personalities playing for themselves and acting like they are above the mere mortals is not going not help, especially if they feel running between the wickets is beneath them.

[VTR]

Exactly. And re Dhoni and Anderson, those two are model professionals who have looked after themselves and put the fitness work in. Gayle now only seems to have functioning biceps, probably from lifting huge plates of food onto his dining room table. It really is a joke that he is welcomed back, the Windies need to move on and will be a better side on the long run for it

[Mad for Chelsea]

England win toss and bowl in the second ODI. Curran in for Woakes, a sense that England are trying to manage Woakes's knee issues, and a chance for Curran to show what he can do. WI have brought in Cotterell for Pooram. Bit harsh on the youngster, who did have a bit of a shocker in the first game (out for a duck and spilled a sitter off Roy), but not sure you should be dropping someone after one poor game. Makes their bowling look much more balanced, but leaves a long tail, with Brathwaite/Holder at 6.

[Duty281]

Looks a bit more bowler friendly today. One can hope anyway!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Not entirely sure why Morgan is bowling Moeen in the powerplay to Gayle - just essentially gifting him the chance to catch up on his slow run rate, with only two allowed outside the circle to the spinner - with no spin on offer. He's being tied up by the pacemen too

[Mad for Chelsea]

yeah I think bowling Moeen was a bit too funky TBH. Powerplay over, 49/0. Wood did well. Let's see if Plunkett can back it up.

[Duty281]

Don't wish to belabour the point, but: 21 dots when England batted in the first PP in the first ODI. 39 dots today when the West Indies batted in the first PP.

First PP scores: West Indies 49/1 (first ODI). West Indies 49/0 (today). England 88/0 (first ODI).

The hosts haven't learnt a thing from a couple of days ago, and are just handing the initiative (and the game + the series) to England.

[Mad for Chelsea]

To be fair, I think Gayle has made an effort to push on a bit earlier this time. Running between the wickets still shocking, though he did manage a couple of singles to extra-cover on the ring in that over (his own mind, he turned down a very long single when Hope was batting that the latter was not best pleased about).

[Mad for Chelsea]

Rashid with the wicket of Gayle. Brave bowling too, a tossed-up leggie which spins between bat and pad and just clips the off-stump. Gayle seemed to be expecting yet another googly, and is well and truly done. WI 100/2 after 21.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Is Bravo really going to switch his helmet for a cap and back again every over?

[VTR]

The Universe Dross smacked a few sixes but forgot to do much else. Perfect for England that he chewed up powerplay overs then got out

[Mad for Chelsea]

Hope holes out to deep square leg off Stokes, hitting into the wind and Bairstow barely had to move. Stokes has been very good again today, and in general I think England's plans have been much better. Pitch is a bit tackier by the looks of things, which has probably helped.

Hope looked really annoyed with Gayle earlier today, and didn't seem in quite the same rhythm as he was two days ago.

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