6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Part 1 - https://www.606v2.com/t68214-6-nations-ireland-v-england-2nd-feb-2019

Details:

Date: Saturday 2nd February 2019
Time: 16:45 GMT
Location: Dublin, Aviva Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, TV3, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live


Officials


Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)



Teams

Ireland

15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Johnny Sexton, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Cian Healy, 2 Rory Best, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Devin Toner, 5 James Ryan, 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 Josh van der Flier, 8 CJ Stander.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sean O'Brien, 21 John Cooney, 22 Joey Carbery, 23 Jordan Larmour


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

Presuming Ed wrote:It will be close across the park, but feel our tight 5 shades it as do the backs, but back row for England does look week and although as an ex flanker I may be accused of being biased, they are the key to any good performance.

I cannot see how you can put the English front five in front of the Irish front five

Vunipola is better a better ball carrier but Healy is a better scrummager, both useful at the breakdown
George may well be a better thrower but Best at the breakdown is outstanding and edges it
Sinklar is a promising powerful player but Furlong by a distance - he is truly World Class
As for the locks if you picked a combined team it would be one each Itoje and Ryan

As for the backs we can argue all day about Farrell and Sexton but Youngs is not Murrays equal
Slade and Manu have to develop a partnership, Aki and Ringrose are further down that path
Stockdale is on the top of his form, Nowell is only just getting back into it.
May and Earls both bring something - about even, but even there Earls is the more complete player
Henshaw may be a risk but so is Daly. I know who Id want under a high ball and he wont be wearing white

So just cant see where you are coming from with this

geoff999rugby wrote:

Presuming Ed wrote:It will be close across the park, but feel our tight 5 shades it as do the backs, but back row for England does look week and although as an ex flanker I may be accused of being biased, they are the key to any good performance.

I cannot see how you can put the English front five in front of the Irish front five

Vunipola is better a better ball carrier but Healy is a better scrummager, both useful at the breakdown
George may well be a better thrower but Best at the breakdown is outstanding and edges it
Sinklar is a promising powerful player but Furlong by a distance - he is truly World Class
As for the locks if you picked a combined team it would be one each Itoje and Ryan

As for the backs we can argue all day about Farrell and Sexton but Youngs is not Murrays equal
Slade and Manu have to develop a partnership, Aki and Ringrose are further down that path
Stockdale is on the top of his form, Nowell is only just getting back into it.
May and Earls both bring something - about even, but even there Earls is the more complete player
Henshaw may be a risk but so is Daly. I know who Id want under a high ball and he wont be wearing white

So just cant see where you are coming from with this

I think there is a lack of objectivity in some of those assessments, but it won't be long until we find out. Quite happy conceding that the Irish pack as an 8 is a better, more established unit, but depending on what skills you want to choose you could twist those ratings all over the place.

I see arguments for most of Geoff's points, agree with some of them, but May is streets ahead of Earls

Not sure about that. Very different wingers. Better off comparing Earls to Nowell and May to Stockdale. One is a finisher (not in the EJ sense) one is a more rounded utility 3/4 to complement the back 3.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

nathan wrote:Until Genge comes on and runs over a few Irish players.

I don't think England have ever played such an 'offensive' set of props before. All 4 useful ball in hand.

Worthwhile looking out for Sinckler tackling. He seems to belong to the same school of defense as Lawes.

You mean late hits on outside halves?

Not sure either of them have ever done a late hit on outside halves, normally reserved for Lawes.

Maybe worth the injury situation. Both teams are not far off their best possible, but a number of players are back after recent significant injuries. But for England the only player I'd actually put in that category is Billy Vunipola, and even he has had a few games (unlike last year).

Ireland seem to have been harder hit in recent months. Henshaw, Sexton, Murray are all short on game time (that I can think of) - please correct me if I am wrong.

BamBam wrote:I see arguments for most of Geoff's points, agree with some of them, but May is streets ahead of Earls

Agreed - it's just you could easily say 'And if it comes to kicking penalty goals from our own half I know which 15 I'd choose and they won't be wearing green'

Well one metric we could use is consistency over time.
If we take the last 12 months of international rugby I think it would be fair to say that the Ireland players have shown a greater consistency of performance as individuals, units and as a team, than England have.

Now that I have shown you conclusive proof Ireland are the better team I would appreciate all England fans submit to my superior science backed opinion, and just post how many points England will be beaten by, and congratulations on Ireland's obvious coming victory.

I thank you for your time

lostinwales wrote:Maybe worth the injury situation. Both teams are not far off their best possible, but a number of players are back after recent significant injuries. But for England the only player I'd actually put in that category is Billy Vunipola, and even he has had a few games (unlike last year).

Ireland seem to have been harder hit in recent months. Henshaw, Sexton, Murray are all short on game time (that I can think of) - please correct me if I am wrong.

Can't really speak for England but I'd be quite surprised if Ireland play with the fluidity of top form in this first game.  Yes, Sexton and Murray aren't exactly in the middle of a run of big games so serious questions could be forced on them - they'll be rusty, particularly in the first half when Ireland usually test out what's in front of them.  

I think the team itself will have edgy moments when England get on them; and whilst it'll be painful to watch if it happens, it'll also be interesting to see how Ireland might respond when not getting things all their own way.  They probably need that kind of a game now to remind them of standards that need to be maintained.  You might say they dragged a game back from France last year after a sluggish start but England are a very different beast.  If they get a head start, reeling them in won't be easy at all. England have a real chance here.

carpet baboon wrote:

I thank you for your time

Don't ruin the excitement, carpet. At least pretend they have a chance to keep me glued to the TV or else I might as well just go fishing.

All true, but don't dismiss how important home advantage is in the 6Ns.

Looks like a very good England team to me.

The main areas that'll effect the game will be.

1. George's throwing
2. Kruis organising our lineout to be as effective as possible
3. Kruis and maul defense and organising attacking mauls
4. Manu being used correctly
5. Daly being secure at 15

They're the big ones to me. If we cant get good lineout ball and damage Irelands then it'll be a tough game. Likewise if our attack is blunt through Tuilagi we wont worry the very good Irish defense.

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Maybe worth the injury situation. Both teams are not far off their best possible, but a number of players are back after recent significant injuries. But for England the only player I'd actually put in that category is Billy Vunipola, and even he has had a few games (unlike last year).

Ireland seem to have been harder hit in recent months. Henshaw, Sexton, Murray are all short on game time (that I can think of) - please correct me if I am wrong.

Can't really speak for England but I'd be quite surprised if Ireland play with the fluidity of top form in this first game.  Yes, Sexton and Murray aren't exactly in the middle of a run of big games so serious questions could be forced on them - they'll be rusty, particularly in the first half when Ireland usually test out what's in front of them.  

I think the team itself will have edgy moments when England get on them; and whilst it'll be painful to watch if it happens, it'll also be interesting to see how Ireland might respond when not getting things all their own way.  They probably need that kind of a game now to remind them of standards that need to be maintained.  You might say they dragged a game back from France last year after a sluggish start but England are a very different beast.  If they get a head start, reeling them in won't be easy at all.  England have a real chance here.

I don’t remember this Ireland team having had an opposition who want to run through them rather than around them, it will be interesting to see how they cope with the battering ram.

England usually start this comp badly and slowly build into it.

carpet baboon wrote:Well one metric we could use is consistency over time.
If we take the last 12 months of international rugby I think it would be fair to say that the Ireland players have shown a greater consistency of performance as individuals, units and as a team, than England have.

Now that I have shown you conclusive proof Ireland are the better team I would appreciate all England fans submit to my superior science backed opinion, and just post how many points England will be beaten by, and congratulations on Ireland's obvious coming victory.

I thank you for your time

8 points.

Congratulations on the victory.

Thank you for thanking me.

LondonTiger wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Well one metric we could use is consistency over time.
If we take the last 12 months of international rugby I think it would be fair to say that the Ireland players have shown a greater consistency of performance as individuals, units and as a team, than England have.

Now that I have shown you conclusive proof Ireland are the better team I would appreciate all England fans submit to my superior science backed opinion, and just post how many points England will be beaten by, and congratulations on Ireland's obvious coming victory.

I thank you for your time

8 points.

Congratulations on the victory.

Thank you for thanking me.

The pleasure was all mine LT.

Well so far Ireland have responded to all the talk from England. ..in a very boring fashion. Jones now painting them as favourites with the pressure that comes with that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well so far Ireland have responded to all the talk from England. ..in a very boring fashion. Jones now painting them as favourites with the pressure that comes with that.

No pressure. As science has proved we are the better team, playing at home. Victory is ours

So say the majority too.

Its all set up for an England win. Id be quietly confident if I were English.

The majority are a wise bunch.

In all seriousness this England team has the potential to be fantastic, but at the moment it's still potential they haven't proved it yet.
Now on Saturday they could very well turn that potential into performance, and hand us a beating.
It's going to be a hard game, and whoever wins will have earned it.

Good luck everyone

yappysnap wrote:England usually start this comp badly and slowly build into  it.

Do we?

Last year we beat Italy (yay) and Wales before 3 losses on the bounce.
2017 we won our first 4 and lost our 5th, although I guess we did save our best performance for Week 4.
2016 was the Grand Slam year and the game against Scotland was quite dire (Eddie's first) before we looked more coherent later on.

Maybe we do, and maybe it was just the way the fixtures fell last year. We certainly weren't brilliant against Italy or Wales, although then things got worse rather than the uptick we were hoping for.

I think we'll come out firing here. Think or hope, there's definitely something in there that's telling me we will. Probably more hope than anything!

According to Schmidt Henshaw has been training at full back for Ireland for the last 6 months. Not particularly surprised as everything Schmidt does seems well prepared and calculated.

Aparently Bundee Aki played for Truro school in Cornwall when he was 16 against Manu Tuilagi (also 16) who was playing for John Cleveland college in England. Aki was on a year long scholarship. Tuilagi played on the wing that day.

Collapse2005 wrote:According to Schmidt Henshaw has been training at full back for Ireland for the last 6 months. Not particularly surprised as everything Schmidt does seems well prepared and calculated.

Yes feel better about i now. I think from a RWC perspective it's a significant development - probably not great news for Larmour, Conway or Addison if Joe sees Robbie as an option at 15.

It shows serious confidence that he's gone for this game to try it, but maybe with Kearney being off the pace their hand was forced a bit.

It will be interesting to see if this works well if they stick with it for the rest of the championship.

Any thoughts on the back row, is O'Brien a bit of a risk, form wise, ahead or Ruddock/Murphy as the bench option?

All I know is Im very glad VdF is starting. He will chop away at Billy V all day.

carpet baboon wrote:The majority are a wise bunch.

In all seriousness this England team has the potential to be fantastic, but at the moment it's still potential they haven't proved it yet.
Now on Saturday they could very well turn that potential into performance, and hand us a beating.
It's going to be a hard game, and whoever wins will have earned it.

Good luck everyone

My gut feeling going into this game was that it was a little too early for this England team against a very competent and experienced Irish 15, especially in Dublin, but 6 months down the line I'd be a lot more confident. Not long now...

Collapse2005 wrote:All I know is Im very glad VdF is starting. He will chop away at Billy V all day.

Definitely the right pick for me at 7, he's been in tremendous form.

The team selections show two very different philosophies.
Schmidt makes his signature change with Henshaw to 15 to develop his team ongoing and give him RWC options. In contrast Jones announces that his training squad is picked specifically with Ireland in mind, and the team for this weekend is picked to target their weaknesses.
Schmidt is moulding his squad irrespective of opposition, yet Jones is focused just on this game and on Sunday Eddie may have a win but will his strategy carry the team forward longer term?

AFAIK some of the England fans would not have picked this team as the one that would be the foundation for a second RWC victory. The starting XV looks very defensive (a compliment) and maybe the intended strategy is to negate Ireland for the first three quarters and then unleash the creativity to expose the tiring defence? The inclusion of Kruis and Wilson as spoilers in the tight and loose would support this notion with Farrell to 10, Manu 12 and Slade 13 to stop Ireland getting the ball beyond the midfield. When England have the ball they will be direct to sap Irish energy, with Mako, Kyle the plumber, Itoje, Billy and Tuilagi carrying until they drop.
The arrival of the third/fourth quarter reinforcements Genge, Williams, Lawes, Hughes replacing the above with Ford to 10 (and Ashton for Nowell) will be the signal for the wide game to start.

It could work for Jones, but even if Ireland lose Joe will be more concerned with how Robbie played and whether he is a viable option at fullback.

Rugby Fan wrote:The first 16 minutes of this 1014 video look at how Ireland and England play.

Very interesting watch. Obviously limited by having to show stills. But does back up what I said later in this thread about England's attack - look how often they use Sinckler on the short ball. Very effective hard, straight running lines that cut against a drift defence. The later England throw that pass, the more likely they are to cause trouble in attack. That's obvious, really, but because of the sheer quantity of dynamic ball carriers they have, Ireland have to shut that down otherwise it's trytime England.

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:All I know is Im very glad VdF is starting. He will chop away at Billy V all day.

Definitely the right pick for me at 7, he's been in tremendous form.  

If SOB had gone in it would have sent the wrong message. VDF did well against the ABs (twice) so its not like SOB is ahead of the others, just a different choice. Will be nice to see him come on for the last 20mins.

miaow wrote: Ireland have to shut that down otherwise it's trytime England.

Or as big Andy F would say, we need to destroy and enjoy....

Brendan wrote:

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:All I know is Im very glad VdF is starting. He will chop away at Billy V all day.

Definitely the right pick for me at 7, he's been in tremendous form.  

If SOB had gone in it would have sent the wrong message.  VDF did well against the ABs (twice) so its not like SOB is ahead of the others, just a different choice.  Will be nice to see him come on for the last 20mins.

SOB going up against a tiring England team and with something to prove could be fun to watch

The Great Aukster wrote:The team selections show two very different philosophies.
Schmidt makes his signature change with Henshaw to 15 to develop his team ongoing and give him RWC options. In contrast Jones announces that his training squad is picked specifically with Ireland in mind, and the team for this weekend is picked to target their weaknesses.
Schmidt is moulding his squad irrespective of opposition, yet Jones is focused just on this game and on Sunday Eddie may have a win but will his strategy carry the team forward longer term?

AFAIK some of the England fans would not have picked this team as the one that would be the foundation for a second RWC victory. The starting XV looks very defensive (a compliment) and maybe the intended strategy is to negate Ireland for the first three quarters and then unleash the creativity to expose the tiring defence? The inclusion of Kruis and Wilson as spoilers in the tight and loose would support this notion with Farrell to 10, Manu 12 and Slade 13 to stop Ireland getting the ball beyond the midfield. When England have the ball they will be direct to sap Irish energy, with Mako, Kyle the plumber, Itoje, Billy and Tuilagi carrying until they drop.
The arrival of the third/fourth quarter reinforcements Genge, Williams, Lawes, Hughes replacing the above with Ford to 10 (and Ashton for Nowell) will be the signal for the wide game to start.

It could work for Jones, but even if Ireland lose Joe will be more concerned with how Robbie played and whether he is a viable option at fullback.

Brian o'driscol was saying Henshaw wanted to play FB and it was where he name his name with Connacht.

Jones is right to pick his squad with Ireland in mind. While I still worry we'll lose Ireland are the best team England will play before the WC. If they get beaten badly everyone would be talking about how far behind the top teams they are and how poor the gameplan/system is. For Ireland they know going into every game they are favourites so Joe needs to improve the players mentally/skills wise rather than improve the system as it has passed all it's tests.

rodders wrote:

miaow wrote: Ireland have to shut that down otherwise it's trytime England.

Or as big Andy F would say, we need to destroy and enjoy....

Poor Mrs. Farrell...

marty2086 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:All I know is Im very glad VdF is starting. He will chop away at Billy V all day.

Definitely the right pick for me at 7, he's been in tremendous form.  

If SOB had gone in it would have sent the wrong message.  VDF did well against the ABs (twice) so its not like SOB is ahead of the others, just a different choice.  Will be nice to see him come on for the last 20mins.

SOB going up against a tiring England team and with something to prove could be fun to watch

I am sure that every back rower apart from Stander and O'Mahoney know that there is a realistic chance they won't make the WC squad. For SOB this is his last chance so I think he will be his physical self but also trying to show Joe he has improved some areas (that Joe most likely has spoken to him about).

Brendan wrote:I think he will be his physical self but also trying to show Joe he has improved some areas (that Joe most likely has spoken to him about).

Hopefully one of those areas of improvement being NOT to be so much of his physical self when not really needed.
Needs to be more of a team player. His main weakness in recent years is believing the hype and always wanting to be the Sergio Parisse of Ireland. I hope Joe's advice is to cool it down and not try to impress again too early.

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:I think he will be his physical self but also trying to show Joe he has improved some areas (that Joe most likely has spoken to him about).

Hopefully one of those areas of improvement being NOT to be so much of his physical self when not really needed.  
Needs to be more of a team player.  His main weakness in recent years is believing the hype and always wanting to be the Sergio Parisse of Ireland.  I hope Joe's advice is to cool it down and not try to impress again too early.

I would guess that Joe has told him he needs to play a certain number of games and to be smart with how he handles himself. Aki has got better so I would hope SOB can too in not always trying to run through walls.. He is still some player to come off the bench but he must make sure he comes through in one piece.

For me the key difference is that Ireland are a team playing as a team with coherent tactics.  England are a collection of individuals without coherent tactics.  Individual by individual England might just shade it but because Ireland are a team they will win and win well.

Individuals because there's new combo s in back row and midfield?

Just in General - they don't seem to be gelled as a team and nowhere near as settled a lineup as Ireland.  No coherent tactics either.

Oh. Right.

Well the women are going well at least ...

Heaf wrote:Well the women are going well at least ...

7-51 final score, would love to see that tomorrow, but even in my widest dreams I cannot.

Well unless it's the one where I score six tries in one game. All before half time and go off for a well deserved rest and a beer or two.

TJ wrote:For me the key difference is that Ireland are a team playing as a team with coherent tactics.  England are a collection of individuals without coherent tactics.  Individual by individual England might just shade it but because Ireland are a team they will win and win well.

I don't know if you're trolling or not, TJ, but I'll assume you're not. It's still a hugely ignorant thing to say. The 1014 did a very good piece after the England v NZ game in the AIs breaking down how England forced New Zealand out of their usual patterns - by their reckoning the English tactics countered the All Black plans A, B and C. Sure, they lost - but bear in mind that the pack was missing half of its regular starters and overall it was a pretty patched together England team.

I'd freely admit that Ireland probably have a more precisely worked out plan and are better at sticking to it, but to say that any international team is "without coherent tactics" is just daft.

I think England will be a lot harder to beat than some posters on here think. There are a couple of experiments that could go badly wrong (Tuilagi at 12, Daly at 15) but it's the strongest squad they've been able to put out in a long while, and England's gameplan (and results) in the AIs were much better than I expected given where they were starting from.

If England underperform again this 6N that'll be it as regards the WC - they'll have given it their all, changed it up personnel wise.... back to as close as you can to a top physical lineup... upped the intensity in Autumn... there'll be nothing else to throw at the WC down the line if they don't continue the upward trajectory now.

But I don't think they will underperform this time. So it won't be 5th, it won't be 4th.... Hopefully they'll be perhaps as 'rusty' as Ireland might be in their first game...because I do think they'll get into a more belligerent rhythm through this competition IF all their big guns keep fit. Probably the best game for both of us to meet up in.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis-why-england-cant-break-down-ireland-and-where-the-irish-weak-spots-are

For those interested... well thought out article, it will be interesting to see how positional changes affect a different outcome. Conditions in Dublin look perfect

Goosestepper wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis-why-england-cant-break-down-ireland-and-where-the-irish-weak-spots-are

For those interested... well thought out article, it will be interesting to see how positional changes affect a different outcome. Conditions in Dublin look perfect

This is a cracking read. As a neutral I am so ridiculously excited for this game tomorrow.

Goosestepper wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis-why-england-cant-break-down-ireland-and-where-the-irish-weak-spots-are

For those interested... well thought out article, it will be interesting to see how positional changes affect a different outcome. Conditions in Dublin look perfect

Blimey it's like having your deficiencies thrown in your face. It took a lot of time to say something very simple, England's kicking game not world class (well bugger my Love sacks), our forwards aren't great at link play again no s**t sherlock. I thought our attack has looked a lot better since we have played with a balanced back row and that's why care has been binned because his kicking isn't up to scratch. We will be more balanced than last year I hope and I wouldn't be supposed if nowell didn't end up fielding a lot of balls in full back interchanging with daly. Hopefully we will prove a little bit more cerebral than last year which wouldn't be difficult.

For me that’s what we’ve lost moving away from the Ford-Farrell axis which was really our USP in the early-Jones period. It’s too one dimensional now.