6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Part 1 - https://www.606v2.com/t68214-6-nations-ireland-v-england-2nd-feb-2019

Details:

Date: Saturday 2nd February 2019
Time: 16:45 GMT
Location: Dublin, Aviva Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, TV3, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live


Officials


Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)



Teams

Ireland

15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Johnny Sexton, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Cian Healy, 2 Rory Best, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Devin Toner, 5 James Ryan, 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 Josh van der Flier, 8 CJ Stander.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sean O'Brien, 21 John Cooney, 22 Joey Carbery, 23 Jordan Larmour


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

Until the france game at least.

eirebilly wrote:Enjoy the win English lads

Irish fans on here have been very good in the aftermath as usual

I think this game showed you're never as good as people say you are, and you're never as bad as people say you are.

This was very puzzling.

Garces puts his hand out for an immediate penalty, has a little think, then for some reason plays on. Then eventually gives a line out to Ireland.

Why is that not a penalty? That tackle has been a yellow card in most instances in the last 3 seasons.

Why did Graces retract his initial instinct to give a penalty?

He thinks it's a legitimate challenge for the ball?

I think that is a fair challenge for the ball tbf RF

He remembered that the laws (interpretation) was changed to allow for a 'fair contest'. Henshaw mis-judges it but is clearly going for the ball

Scottrf wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Enjoy the win English lads

Irish fans on here have been very good in the aftermath as usual

I think this game showed you're never as good as people say you are, and you're never as bad as people say you are.

Ah here now, when you lose you lose. No complaints from me about the ref or any aspect of the game. Just beaten by a better side on the day.

BTW, you could argue that Itoje shouldn't even have been penalised for his collision with Earls (?) after Curry's sin bin (could have been an England penalty for May getting blocked off by Murray). Was a poor attempt to challenge for the ball, but it was clumsy rather than anything else, and I think went wrong because Maro expected to be the support player for May challenging for the ball and then May wasn't there...

It also looks like a knock on and England offside regathering the ball. But the angles can be misleading.

Absolutely no complaints with the match despite feeling as gutted as I've ever felt about an Ireland loss. England had all the brains and brawn on the day and Ireland simply had no answer. England played with an intensity that, if it can be maintained for the tournament, won't be matched. However, just as Saturday was an upset, there will be others, it'll be up to England to avoid the upsets, Wales, Scotland and France are hurdles nobody underestimates.

Onwards and upwards for Ireland, a kick in the backside is what's needed to inject a little reality into a squad and Ireland won't perform that badly again, I guarantee it (you can all quote me on that one).

dummy_half wrote:BTW, you could argue that Itoje shouldn't even have been penalised for his collision with Earls (?) after Curry's sin bin (could have been an England penalty for May getting blocked off by Murray). Was a poor attempt to challenge for the ball, but it was clumsy rather than anything else, and I think went wrong because Maro expected to be the support player for May challenging for the ball and then May wasn't there...

You will probably find England will get penalised a lot less for late tackles if and when they remove it as part of their game plan. Until then they only have themselves to blame IMO.

Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

I agree but would back wales to improve by then. I do fancy England off the back of that performance but it's a long way to go yet.

Mathematically Ireland are still there but the lack of even a bonus point my prove crucial... although I don't think it will - I think it is already a 2 horse raise and Ireland are competing with the Scots and Wales for 3rd.

France were awful in that second half, I think they will be lucky to get higher than 5th.

True. Oddly not that bothered about it either. We just need to get all our ducks in a row for Japan as top priority.

Collapse

I was referring to the Itoje collision, which was not a late tackle. Unlike others, I have no real issues with the Curry YC - he was marginally late and went through with a big hit that he could have (at least partially) pulled out of on a player who was kicking the ball away and so not in a position to protect himself.

It was fairly cynical all the same. Was there another ball up there somewhere he was jumping for?

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.

It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times  (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.

It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.

You were going for a Grand slam ? You only had to turn up

LondonTiger wrote:Taken from The Times:

48-8


England made 48 dominant tackles compared with 8 by Ireland. A dominant tackle is: "Where the defender stops the ball carrier on impact and/or drives him backwards"

This is where I thought we would miss Underhill but the whole pack stood up and won that physical battle.

munkian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times  (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.

It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.

You were going for a Grand slam ? You only had to turn up

I'm assuming the loss in question was the World Cup game

munkian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times  (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.

It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.

You were going for a Grand slam ? You only had to turn up

No it was not a GS match - this was worse. You can look it up for yourself *sigh....

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times  (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.

It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.

Oh here we go. It didn't take long did it ?

England put in their first decent performance in ages, and now they are unbeatable and the only threat Wales has is their full back. I hope England come to Cardiff with this mindset.

El Radar wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Taken from The Times:

48-8


England made 48 dominant tackles compared with 8 by Ireland. A dominant tackle is: "Where the defender stops the ball carrier on impact and/or drives him backwards"

This is where I thought we would miss Underhill but the whole pack stood up and won that physical battle.

Those stats will win you 99% of games IMO. Would be hard to consistently back up though.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.

Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.

In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times  (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.

It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.

Oh here we go. It didn't take long did it ?

England put in their first decent performance in ages, and now they are unbeatable and the only threat Wales has is their full back. I hope England come to Cardiff with this mindset.

Trust you to over react. As I have pointed out. since we lost at Cardiff in 2014 there have been 7 games and Wales have won one, which was not in the 6N but just some other completely unimportant tournament ...

Now it is worth saying that most of those games were won by less than a score, but they were often more comfortable than the score suggests.

Oh well, you'll be favourites for the world cup next.

Wales are in decent form this season, as are England. World Rankings (flawed but an indicator of form) are very close, but with home advantage I make Wales favourites.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, you'll be favourites for the world cup next.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12200420

LondonTiger wrote:Wales are in decent form this season, as are England. World Rankings (flawed but an indicator of form) are very close, but with home advantage I make Wales favourites.

I would say it's about as even as you could get at the moment. But Wales do have more of a threat than just Liam Williams.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, you'll be favourites for the world cup next.

No, can't say that yet, as we'd have to beat more than one decent team to win it.

It's true that it is the 1st decent performance England have put in since australia in the autumn.

Collapse2005 wrote:It was fairly cynical all the same. Was there another ball up there somewhere he was jumping for?

I think he deliberately got beyond the ball to block Earls and then jumped to give the illusion he was competing for the ball. Clumsy attempt at cheating, but I don't think there was any malice. There was a much cuter block by Murray on May in the same play that went unpunished.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, you'll be favourites for the world cup next.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12200420

All good hype and mind games from down under but it does kind of underpin my thinking on the game. I don't think Ireland were in any way cocky or believing the media hype, they were well prepared and in good shape mentally and physically. Quality team. They just ran in to a juggernaut firing on all cylinders from the fist minute. I dread saying this but I am going to, I don't think any team in world rugby, home or away could have dealt with England on Saturday. There's the rub, to maintain that level will be impossible. Another team will work out a way of negating the rush defence, more effectively close down England when they are in attack and England will be forced to change plan on field, a feat they have not proved to be particularly adept at in the recent past.

In conclusion, Ireland are a very good team and didn't play badly on Saturday. England could quite easily lose to France, Wales or Scotland this 6N. Any team can have its day as England did on Saturday, where most things tried come off. If England continue to improve though, they like Ireland and the ABs can win big matches when everything doesn't go to plan and they are perhaps on their B game, but that's a way off yet.

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:It was fairly cynical all the same. Was there another ball up there somewhere he was jumping for?

I think he deliberately got beyond the ball to block Earls and then jumped to give the illusion he was competing for the ball. Clumsy attempt at cheating, but I don't think there was any malice. There was a much cuter block by Murray on May in the same play that went unpunished.

Earls was, by definition, as far from the ball as Itoje was. It's pretty clear from the pattern of running that May was the England player originally going for the ball and that Itoje made an attempt at it when May didn't show up. It was badly executed - but locks train to leap for a ball that's coming towards them rather than going away from them.

There was also pretty clearly a systematic attempt by Ireland to block May's chase - so much so that later in the game he was going off the pitch and running along the touchline to avoid blockers. That sort of tactic is very cynical because you're making high speed contact with a player without the ball but also preventing them from getting to the ball - though it's picked up far less often than a deliberate late tackle.

As for whether England were deliberately making late hits, I don't think they were. I think they were committed to a line speed and aggression in the tackle that ran the risk of mistiming, and they would have been prepared to pick up a YC at some point as the price for the dominance they achieved in the tackle. Curry's YC wasn't unjustified, but since on replay it's clear that he was committed to the tackle, only a fraction late, not high and wraps with both arms a TMO review would probably have reduced it to a penalty.

If we go by the moments of most consequence, there were four scoring moments with some element of doubt about them - Healy's try, Mako's non-try, Slade's exchange with May and Cooney's try - and three out of four decisions went Ireland's way. I think Garces's overall ratio of missed calls was about the same.

Collapse2005 wrote:True. Oddly not that bothered about it either. We just need to get all our ducks in a row for Japan as top priority.

I mean I am bothered about it but maybe less so given it is RWC year and the fact we won the GS last year.

The manner of the defeat does worry me a little as we did seem to lose composure in a way we haven't in a long time. Maybe winning so much leaves an element of complacency and we just assumed we'd peg them back?

You don't become a bad team overnight but we have seen before that when a team that has been on a run loses all of a sudden that aura of invincibility can evaporate.

The Scotland game now is massive for us...losing that is unthinkable but a very realistic possibility....

Well yes of course losing to England is never a bag of laughs. Maybe the GS last year helps alright.

Ill start to worry if we lose to Scotland.

Definitely not a time to get ahead of ourselves. It was one (very) good performance, but I don't think we can play the full tournament at that intensity without breaking half the team, so we'll need to find ways of playing smart at times as well as physical. There were some good things in attack, but most of England's quality play was in neutralising Ireland's effort, and winning the pressure moments.

We know from experience that there really isn't much of a quality gap between the 6Ns countries bar Italy, and a good performance or identifying particular weaknesses makes the difference. Still, I'd much rather be going through the rest of the tournament on the back of a bonus point away win in Ireland than any other possible start.

Collapse2005 wrote:Well yes of course losing to England is never a bag of laughs. Maybe the GS last year helps alright.

Ill start to worry if we lose to Scotland.

The other upside is you'll get better odds on Ireland now to win the RWC

rodders wrote:

I mean I am bothered about it but maybe less so given it is RWC year and the fact we won the GS last year.

The manner of the defeat does worry me a little as we did seem to lose composure in a way we haven't in a long time. Maybe winning so much leaves an element of complacency and we just assumed we'd peg them back?

You don't become a bad team overnight but we have seen before that when a team that has been on a run loses all of a sudden that aura of invincibility can evaporate.

The Scotland game now is massive for us...losing that is unthinkable but a very realistic possibility....

At what stage did Ireland lose their composure rodders? I thought that the lads played well but were just outplayed, simple as that.

Yeah I thought they were fine in general too. Losing the gainline collisions lost the game. It happens.

POM seemed to get uncharacteristically riled with Sinckler but then again he tends to have that effect on people.

Stockdale was a bit rattled as well.

El Radar wrote:POM seemed to get uncharacteristically riled with Sinckler but then again he tends to have that effect on people.

Yes O'Mahony was weak enough throughout. Mind you only really VdF and Ringrose has reasonable games.

Poorfour wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:It was fairly cynical all the same. Was there another ball up there somewhere he was jumping for?

I think he deliberately got beyond the ball to block Earls and then jumped to give the illusion he was competing for the ball. Clumsy attempt at cheating, but I don't think there was any malice. There was a much cuter block by Murray on May in the same play that went unpunished.

Earls was, by definition, as far from the ball as Itoje was. It's pretty clear from the pattern of running that May was the England player originally going for the ball and that Itoje made an attempt at it when May didn't show up. It was badly executed - but locks train to leap for a ball that's coming towards them rather than going away from them.

There was also pretty clearly a systematic attempt by Ireland to block May's chase - so much so that later in the game he was going off the pitch and running along the touchline to avoid blockers. That sort of tactic is very cynical because you're making high speed contact with a player without the ball but also preventing them from getting to the ball - though it's picked up far less often than a deliberate late tackle.

As for whether England were deliberately making late hits, I don't think they were. I think they were committed to a line speed and aggression in the tackle that ran the risk of mistiming, and they would have been prepared to pick up a YC at some point as the price for the dominance they achieved in the tackle. Curry's YC wasn't unjustified, but since on replay it's clear that he was committed to the tackle, only a fraction late, not high and wraps with both arms a TMO review would probably have reduced it to a penalty.

If we go by the moments of most consequence, there were four scoring moments with some element of doubt about them - Healy's try, Mako's non-try, Slade's exchange with May and Cooney's try - and three out of four decisions went Ireland's way. I think Garces's overall ratio of missed calls was about the same.

True, but Itoje had moved beyond the ball and was blocking Earls getting to the ball. Earls wanted to keep coming forward to claim it, but had a massive lump of a second row standing in his way. I can totally see why a penalty was given against Maro. He was never realistically challenging for the ball, because he got nowhere near it. If he had have jumped at the right time, Earls could have carried on coming forward and there would have been a contest.

Yes, Ireland were blocking May, but they did it quite subtly. There probably was a penalty incident in the same play, but it was much more subtly done and less reckless to boot.

I think the ref was, if not good, fair. There's nothing he penalised us for which I thought "but they've been doing that all game", and I think the same is true in reverse, there was nothing they were getting pinged for that I thought we'd done well to get away with. You can only expect fair from a referee, anything above that is a bonus. We also forget how hard it is for referees with so many things to consider each breakdown, they also have to consider what is material to the game.

Few videos doing the rounds on twitter, Tuilagi charging Stockdale in a ruck with no arms, Toner swinging an arm into Curry's head as he tackles him, Itoje pinning Sexton down in a ruck, Healy putting his forearm into Lawes' face in a ruck and Stockdale pushing Ford after he runs out on the 80 minute mark are the ones that I can remember. None of the incidents are particularly noteworthy, and if the citing commissioner does take a second look I don't think any would merit a third glance. More importantly, I don't think in the social media age people trawling through replays and slow-mo clips to pick out one incident and shout "look what your guys were doing" does much for the discourse at all.

The referee gave the calls he did. He didn't miss anything abhorrent. I think in a discussion about "who is the best ref?" then it's fine to bring up anything the ref missed. Otherwise it's all basically noise.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

I mean I am bothered about it but maybe less so given it is RWC year and the fact we won the GS last year.

The manner of the defeat does worry me a little as we did seem to lose composure in a way we haven't in a long time. Maybe winning so much leaves an element of complacency and we just assumed we'd peg them back?

You don't become a bad team overnight but we have seen before that when a team that has been on a run loses all of a sudden that aura of invincibility can evaporate.

The Scotland game now is massive for us...losing that is unthinkable but a very realistic possibility....

At what stage did Ireland lose their composure rodders? I thought that the lads played well but were just outplayed, simple as that.

Totally agreed. Ireland didn't play badly at all. England were just on one on Saturday.

Just started watching this segment from Joe. Quite like it when Andrew Trimble says "We're crap again". He's taking the mickey but I quite understand the deflation the two of them talk about. I've experienced it many times as an England supporter.

[quote="robbo277Yes, Ireland were blocking May, but they did it quite subtly. There probably was a penalty incident in the same play, but it was much more subtly done and less reckless to boot.

[/quote]

There wasn't anything subtle about it and all teams do it, it's something refs need to clamp down on all round, no doubt there were English players blocking their Irish counterparts too.

Ah sure blocking was going on all day, literally every kick.

Ireland have no plan B, their entire plan relied and has recently always relied on winning the collision and simply rolling forward.

When that didn't work they had nothing else.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

I mean I am bothered about it but maybe less so given it is RWC year and the fact we won the GS last year.

The manner of the defeat does worry me a little as we did seem to lose composure in a way we haven't in a long time. Maybe winning so much leaves an element of complacency and we just assumed we'd peg them back?

You don't become a bad team overnight but we have seen before that when a team that has been on a run loses all of a sudden that aura of invincibility can evaporate.

The Scotland game now is massive for us...losing that is unthinkable but a very realistic possibility....

At what stage did Ireland lose their composure rodders? I thought that the lads played well but were just outplayed, simple as that.

Well the obvious one was giving away the intercept but there were other examples were we just forced the play when it wasn't on particularly in our own half.

There were examples all over the park where just the decision making and clarity we're used to seeing from Ireland was just a bit off, which was due to the pressure England put on them but we've seen this side deal with incredible pressure before. so in that sense the performance was disappointing.