6 Nations - England v France

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Details:

Date: Sunday 10th February 2019
Time: 15:00 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live


Officials

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)



Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 26 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 43 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps), 12 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 41 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 66 caps) (c), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 81 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 52 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 33 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 18 caps), 4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 69 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 28 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 9 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 6 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 37 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps), 18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 82 caps), 19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 54 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 19 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 30 caps).





France

15. Yoann Huget
14. Damian Penaud
13. Mathieu Bastareaud
12. Geoffrey Doumayrou
11. Gaël Fickou
10. Camille Lopez
9. Morgan Parra
1. Jefferson Poirot
2. Guilhem Guirado
3. Demba Bamba
4. Sébastien Vahaamahina
5. Félix Lambey
6. Yacouba Camara
7. Arthur Iturria
8. Louis Picamoles

Replacements
16. Pierre Bourgarit
17. Dany Priso
18. Dorian Aldegheri
19. Paul Willemse
20. Gregory Alldritt
21. Antoine Dupont
22. Romain Ntamack
23. Thomas Ramos

One of the more strange analogies I’ve heard.

Apparently EJ missed the English lesson where they learnt about 'the middle' in literature.

miaow wrote:Apparently EJ missed the English lesson where they learnt about 'the middle' in literature.

Well if he spent time improving his rugby knowledge when he should have been putting time into English I don't mind

I'm under no illusions that it's going to be a easy ride against Wales. It's always a tight game, home and away and it's usually the one I worry about the most. Wales are missing a few key players that could play into our hands, I'm bricking it already!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm under no illusions that it's going to be a easy ride against Wales. It's always a tight game, home and away and it's usually the one I worry about the most. Wales are missing a few key players that could play into our hands, I'm bricking it already!

Supplementing the English defensive wall then Sarge?

Has anyone noticed just how many intercepts Slade seems to get, not just for England, but Chiefs as well. A very special little skill that.

I an not sure what our strongest side is now, Mako and Sinkler yes, after that probably only one other spot, 14. Is it Nowell, Big Joe or The Splash. You could state a legitimate case for all of them. I thought Ashton's inclusion would have made us vulnerable defensively, but his time in France seems to have sorted that, very solid on Sunday.

Bonus, Daly actually caught a high ball under pressure and knocked one back. A much better than average performance, usually 0/5.

Daly was excellent on the counter, he just can't catch! The amount of times he goes up and it just bounces off him, more work needed boy!

I have to say again that the leadership from Farrell was spot on and his interactions with officials has come.on leaps and bounds. You could say the last 2 games have been overall comfortable and so less pressure but the sinckler incident summed up the change pretty well. When he first had the captaincy it was him throwing the petulant looks and remarks this time telling sinckler to stop with the remarks look up at the ref. Little things but they make a difference. No huffing from him merely listening to the ref and responding well.

Daly is so exciting when he gets the ball in broken field play, just imagine how many more opportunities he would have there if he was able to dominate when he catches the ball

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have to say again that the leadership from Farrell was spot on and his interactions with officials has come.on leaps and bounds. You could say the last 2 games have been overall comfortable and so less pressure but the sinckler incident summed up the change pretty well. When he first had the captaincy it was him throwing the petulant looks and remarks this time telling sinckler to stop with the remarks look up  at the ref. Little things but they make a difference. No huffing from him merely listening to the ref and responding well.

Have to disagree here. I've never been a huge Farrell fan, but concede that he has grown in to a highly accomplished modern day 10. Not the style I like, the more swahbuckling style of a player like Freddie Burns (or his brother - gutted he's been lured away by the Irish) are more to my taste, but Farrell is doing an excellent job in this "power" age, no arguement. As captain, he's not what we need. A cool headed hard man that puts fear into the opposition is what England need to steady them when things go wrong and Farrell is not that. Problem is is that I'm not sure who there is with enough caps to fill the role, but Farrell is not the man to lead England if we're going to have a real chance of winning the RWC, but alas I am positive that is exactly what Jones will ask him to do.

That's not true. Whether Farrell is the best captain or not, if you can dominate Ireland in Dublin, you can win the World Cup.

I was impressed with how Farrell handled Sinckler and how he spoke to the ref. It is easier when your team is well on top, but we saw how even experienced skippers can upset the ref this last round with Best and Poite.

As to whether we need a cool headed hard man - when have we ever had such? Different teams need different styles and the best teams hardly need a skipper as they have leaders across the pitch.

Yeah each to their own I suppose in choice of fly half Ed though the Burns brothers are a country mile away from Farrell in quality terms.
Not sure what you could as the situation going wrong but from that point of view for me it would be going behind to Ireland in Ireland or going down to 14 men. Not sure a hard man is needed over someone who makes good decisions or indeed whether any guy stepping onto a rugby pitch is going to scared from an ugly lock wearing white!

Yeah, sure when things go to plan, but if they don't? In a way I'd like to see Wales get in to an early lead and then see wht this team are really made of because our leaders, Farrell, Itoje, Tuilagi? are all hot heads and haven't been able to steady the ship to date. I hope I am wrong but we won't know until we see a team really put England under pressure, but my doubts remain.

Jones is wrong about Freddie Burns, in terms of Billie, the jury's still out but I would still prfer he wasn't being lined up by Ireland.

No pressure in going down a man and behind in the game?
Burns showed promised when he burst onto the scene but never really progressed.

I don't think that was too pressured, I can't remember the score at the time, but it was early on, players still high on energy and we were either ahead at the time or level. Had it been in the last quarter holding on to a 2 point lead, now that would have shown us something.

As for Burns, he was brilliant on the Argentina tour and then Farrell came back and he never got another chance, so you can't say he never progressed as an international flyhalf which is a real shame for England.

I meant he never progressed full stop. It took him long enough to get past Priestland!
I appreciate this is a hard question as there is an intangible nature to leadership but what would you be looking for someone to do that Farrell hasn't demonstrated in the last 2 games?

Presuming Ed wrote:

As for Burns, he was brilliant on the Argentina tour and then Farrell came back and he never got another chance, so you can't say he never progressed as an international flyhalf which is a real shame for England.

I have a lot of time for Freddie Burns, but after doing well in Argentina in 2013 he returned to Glaws and completely stunk the place up. Sadly HKC no longer seems to post, but he would be very clear just how poor Burns was in 13/14 for them. The move to us seemed to rejuvenate him, especially after he hired Paul Grayson to help with his goal kicking, but at times he would try too much. At the very top level he is the kind of player who loses you as many games as he wins.

Great win for England and they were mightily impressive again. Farrell's kicking was superb and May's chasing unreal. The kicking ahead tactic worked really well.

England were always going to win that one but my god Nigel Owens had an absolute stinker of a day on the whistle. Thought he was dreadful.

LondonTiger wrote:

Presuming Ed wrote:

As for Burns, he was brilliant on the Argentina tour and then Farrell came back and he never got another chance, so you can't say he never progressed as an international flyhalf which is a real shame for England.

I have a lot of time for Freddie Burns, but after doing well in Argentina in 2013 he returned to Glaws and completely stunk the place up. Sadly HKC no longer seems to post, but he would be very clear just how poor Burns was in 13/14 for them. The move to us seemed to rejuvenate him, especially after he hired Paul Grayson to help with his goal kicking, but at times he would try too much. At the very top level he is the kind of player who loses you as many games as he wins.

The fiasco against Toulouse demonstrates your point. Can you imagine Farrell doing anything similar?

Collapse2005 wrote:Great win for England and they were mightily impressive again. Farrell's kicking was superb and May's chasing unreal. The kicking ahead tactic worked really well.

England were always going to win that one but my god Nigel Owens had an absolute stinker of a day on the whistle. Thought he was dreadful.

I think the penalty try was possibly the worst call of the tournament. I don't want to pillory him too much for it, because I think on the whole referees should be bold with penalty tries, but I think that was the wrong call. I think it's harsh to give a penalty try when the ball isn't either in hand or over the try line to be honest, because if the ball is on the floor infield you have to gather it and carry it or hack it through and then win the race. Too much can happen.

If a player is running clean through and he's tackled high, fine, penalty try. Ball slapped out of play in the ingoal, penalty try. Scrums and mauls cynically brought down, yep, penalty try again. But the ball at his feet 15m out, even if he was ahead of the defenders running back, there's just too much going on to make that call. As it happened he probably would have had to double back on himself and would have got caught.

Yeah agreed.

I thought awarding the penalty try was wrong, but that it was a clearcut yellow card for Fickou. As England were 22 points up at that stage and would have had an attacking position against a team down to 14, it did not really impact on the game.

Exiledinborders wrote:The fiasco against Toulouse demonstrates your point. Can you imagine Farrell doing anything similar?

He did the same celebration to not scoring, except he dropped it rather than had it knocked from his hands.

Agree on the penalty try (on review) but punishing cynical play like that is a good thing.

Exiledinborders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Presuming Ed wrote:

As for Burns, he was brilliant on the Argentina tour and then Farrell came back and he never got another chance, so you can't say he never progressed as an international flyhalf which is a real shame for England.

I have a lot of time for Freddie Burns, but after doing well in Argentina in 2013 he returned to Glaws and completely stunk the place up. Sadly HKC no longer seems to post, but he would be very clear just how poor Burns was in 13/14 for them. The move to us seemed to rejuvenate him, especially after he hired Paul Grayson to help with his goal kicking, but at times he would try too much. At the very top level he is the kind of player who loses you as many games as he wins.

The fiasco against Toulouse demonstrates your point. Can you imagine Farrell doing anything similar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNCIu4zbTuU

The requirement for awarding a penalty try is only that foul play stopped a probable try.

Ashton was chasing down a kick, was ahead of Fickou, one fly hack from the line and was tackled without the ball. England had already scored three tries from similar kicks (and missed none). The chance that he would have scored but for the tackle off the ball is high enough to award a penalty try, and more to the point it was deliberate and desperate: there was no way that Fickou could claim that Ashton had the ball, so the fact that he intervened illegally to stop him suggests that he thought a try would probably be scored.

I was impressed that Nige called it immediately.

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Great win for England and they were mightily impressive again. Farrell's kicking was superb and May's chasing unreal. The kicking ahead tactic worked really well.

England were always going to win that one but my god Nigel Owens had an absolute stinker of a day on the whistle. Thought he was dreadful.

I think the penalty try was possibly the worst call of the tournament. I don't want to pillory him too much for it, because I think on the whole referees should be bold with penalty tries, but I think that was the wrong call. I think it's harsh to give a penalty try when the ball isn't either in hand or over the try line to be honest, because if the ball is on the floor infield you have to gather it and carry it or hack it through and then win the race. Too much can happen.

If a player is running clean through and he's tackled high, fine, penalty try. Ball slapped out of play in the ingoal, penalty try. Scrums and mauls cynically brought down, yep, penalty try again. But the ball at his feet 15m out, even if he was ahead of the defenders running back, there's just too much going on to make that call. As it happened he probably would have had to double back on himself and would have got caught.

Too much incentive for 'cynical' foul play if the risk of a penalty try diminishes? A bit like football when a player is in on goal - still have to beat the goalkeeper, which is no mean feat sometimes, but even if they're brought down 40 yards out it can still be a red card.

I do agree that Ashton had overrun the ball - the tackle was almost simultaneous with the missed kick but he wasn't going to cleanly hack that forwards and dive on it. At best, he'd scuff it, have to stop, pick it up, and then hope the momentum of a tackler drove him back towards the tryline. In which case, it's unlikely that he'd score. But the opportunity would still be there. In reality was a try likely? No. Acccording to the laws was it the correct decision? Probably, yes,

But Nige favours the attacking team. England have had a few marginal calls go their way so far in the first two games. Another player looked level/possibly offside from a kick ahead (think just prior to the 'was it a knock on try') but that's what you get for playing on the front foot. Pressure means the bounce of the ball often favours you and it also means the ref probably will too.

It wasnt a probably try in my view as he missed the ball and over ran it. The greater probability was that even if he regathered his composure and pucked the ball up he would have been tackled. A probably try would have been much more plausable if he had actually kicked the ball forward and was then tackled.

I'm not sure whether there's a 'last man' aspect to this as there is in football, but there was cover, wasn't there? Should that have been factored in?

Owens checked on the cover so that was at least factored in.

Collapse2005 wrote:It wasnt a probably try in my view as he missed the ball and over ran it. The greater probability was that even if he regathered his composure and pucked the ball up he would have been tackled. A probably try would have been much more plausable if he had actually kicked the ball forward and was then tackled.

I agree. As I said, I don't think it was probable as the kick/non kick looked to be happening as he was tackled. However, according to the laws, I think it's probable that a penalty try was fair for the reasons given above by another poster about the protocol you go through. No massive complaints if he ruled it either way to be honest, it's that marginal and ultimately a stupid piece of foul play by France. You run that risk if you make that tackle.

I only saw the replay in the ground and it wasn't clear from that that Ashton overran the ball. Agree that might make it less clear cut - but Nige has always been pretty strong on playing the game in the spirit in which it should be played. He also looked at the replay before deciding to give the yellow and didn't choose to overturn the Penalty Try, so he must have felt that the balance of probabilities was still in the right direction.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not sure whether there's a 'last man' aspect to this as there is in football, but there was cover, wasn't there? Should that have been factored in?

There was no other cover near. It did look like he'd overrun the ball - and if he had not been tackled there is no guarantee he would have made it for that reason. But you can also say he had a chance to score that was illegally prevented by Fickou.

On another day we might have seen Sinckler have 10 minutes, but it was a strange one (a pat that was very heavy) and therefore touch and go, and superficially the high tackle by Bemba (? certainly a french prop) on Tuilagi looked bad, but I can't remember seeing a replay, and we got a try so the attention was off him.

Did the replays on tv show the whole Sinckler incident? In the ground they only showed him grabbing the French player's headguard, but it happened just below me and the French player hit him first. In real time, it didn't look like much more than prop-sized handbags, and more than a penalty would have been a bit excessive.

Poorfour wrote:I only saw the replay in the ground and it wasn't clear from that that Ashton overran the ball. Agree that might make it less clear cut - but Nige has always been pretty strong on playing the game in the spirit in which it should be played. He also looked at the replay before deciding to give the yellow and didn't choose to overturn the Penalty Try, so he must have felt that the balance of probabilities was still in the right direction.

Think Nige is starting to grate players with his pontificating. Singlers eye to the sky reaction to Niges "spirit of the game" lecture was pretty funny.

Has Owens beccome the Bono of world rugby?

LP

Owens specifically asked the TMO about the covering defenders, with his on field assessment being that they were too far behind play to have prevented the try.

I did think it was a slightly generous call under the circumstances. I agree with others that refs probably should be more bold in awarding penalty tries where foul play probably prevents a try being scored, but in this case with Ashton not having control of the ball and it not being in goal or almost (i.e. not having to bounce again before crossing the line), I think there were too many uncertainties. to say 'probably'.

Anyway, re the rest of the game:
May is a bit quick isn't he?
What has happened to the French?
Sinckler needs to smarten up - he was retaliating to something that happened at the edge of the ruck (it's not clear exactly what, but the French 7 definitely had a go at him first), but as so often it was the obvious response that caught the officials attention.
Ashton really should have caught the basketball pass from Manu - he was stretching a bit, but an international player should have good enough hands to collect that one.

England's selection and team balance, after looking all over the place last year, suddenly looks oh so right - proper balance in the back row, effective carriers all over the park and a good balance between power, speed and tactical nous, as exemplified by the centre combination.

,

miaow wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Presuming Ed wrote:

As for Burns, he was brilliant on the Argentina tour and then Farrell came back and he never got another chance, so you can't say he never progressed as an international flyhalf which is a real shame for England.

I have a lot of time for Freddie Burns, but after doing well in Argentina in 2013 he returned to Glaws and completely stunk the place up. Sadly HKC no longer seems to post, but he would be very clear just how poor Burns was in 13/14 for them. The move to us seemed to rejuvenate him, especially after he hired Paul Grayson to help with his goal kicking, but at times he would try too much. At the very top level he is the kind of player who loses you as many games as he wins.

The fiasco against Toulouse demonstrates your point. Can you imagine Farrell doing anything similar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNCIu4zbTuU

Well said!

Poorfour wrote:Did the replays on tv show the whole Sinckler incident? In the ground they only showed him grabbing the French player's headguard, but it happened just below me and the French player hit him first. In real time, it didn't look like much more than prop-sized handbags, and more than a penalty would have been a bit excessive.

They just showed it from Sinckler slapping the Frenchman on the head/headguard. You could hear Sinckler squealing (word used because he was very high pitched at that point) that the Frenchman had hit him first.

Poorfour wrote:Did the replays on tv show the whole Sinckler incident? In the ground they only showed him grabbing the French player's headguard, but it happened just below me and the French player hit him first. In real time, it didn't look like much more than prop-sized handbags, and more than a penalty would have been a bit excessive.

I was wondering about that too. On the mic, Sinckler was saying that the French player had hit him first, but none of the replays showed that, just Sinckler whacking / grabbing his headguard. Owens didn't seem too interested in hearing what he had to say, and Farrell quite rightly told him to zip it

BamBam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Did the replays on tv show the whole Sinckler incident? In the ground they only showed him grabbing the French player's headguard, but it happened just below me and the French player hit him first. In real time, it didn't look like much more than prop-sized handbags, and more than a penalty would have been a bit excessive.

I was wondering about that too. On the mic, Sinckler was saying that the French player had hit him first, but none of the replays showed that, just Sinckler whacking / grabbing his headguard. Owens didn't seem too interested in hearing what he had to say, and Farrell quite rightly told him to zip it

He was definitely hit first, and it's very odd that the replays didn't show the whole incident. In context, Sinckler's response didn't look as bad - more of a "get off me" reaction than an out and out retaliation.

Didn't the same French player punch Farrell a little later? The commentators picked it up I believe.

poorfour

TV replays started only with Sinckler hitting the French guy, but in real time there was clearly something from the French flanker first. Unfortunately, it was only in a wide camera shot, so you can't really see what happened other than that the French guy had his hand and arm up somewhere near Sinckler's face / head during the ruck, and Sinckler takes exception to it.

Presuming Ed wrote:

miaow wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Presuming Ed wrote:

As for Burns, he was brilliant on the Argentina tour and then Farrell came back and he never got another chance, so you can't say he never progressed as an international flyhalf which is a real shame for England.

I have a lot of time for Freddie Burns, but after doing well in Argentina in 2013 he returned to Glaws and completely stunk the place up. Sadly HKC no longer seems to post, but he would be very clear just how poor Burns was in 13/14 for them. The move to us seemed to rejuvenate him, especially after he hired Paul Grayson to help with his goal kicking, but at times he would try too much. At the very top level he is the kind of player who loses you as many games as he wins.

The fiasco against Toulouse demonstrates your point. Can you imagine Farrell doing anything similar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNCIu4zbTuU

Well said!

Cipriani is harder done by on the not really getting a chance count.

But as it is now Farrell has further cemented his place as the first choice for the world cup and beyond. As a captain hes growing in stature, and at least it means there wont be any 6 hour discussions with Robshaw before making the wrong decision on whether to kick a penalty or not. Looking at the world cup you ideally want a captain whos as close to certain to be starting as is possible, and who wont be hauled off after 50 minutes for being tired. He might not be the greatest or most natural Captain ever, but hes the obvious choice right now.

Strangely the other two named as fly halves in the EPS are Exeters centres.

Gooseberry wrote:Strangely the other two named as fly halves in the EPS are Exeters centres.

????


Ah, just looked at the RFU Squad page where Devoto and Slade (as well as Ford) are listed as Fly Halves

Did I see something about Manu being used for solo tackles? i.e. if he's going for the tackle then nobody else is going to try and double team with him - so there is one more guy in the defensive line further out.

lostinwales wrote:Did I see something about Manu being used for solo tackles? i.e. if he's going for the tackle then nobody else is going to try and double team with him - so there is one more guy in the defensive line further out.

Not seen that, but it messed up with Huget where effectively Manu knocked May off the tackle.

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Strangely the other two named as fly halves in the EPS are Exeters centres.

????


Ah, just looked at the RFU Squad page where Devoto and Slade (as well as Ford) are listed as Fly Halves

I also notice that Thorley is listed as a winger. I wonder if no-one has bothered changing that field on their database record since they were in the U20s?

dummy_half wrote:LP

Owens specifically asked the TMO about the covering defenders, with his on field assessment being that they were too far behind play to have prevented the try.

I did think it was a slightly generous call under the circumstances. I agree with others that refs probably should be more bold in awarding penalty tries where foul play probably prevents a try being scored, but in this case with Ashton not having control of the ball and it not being in goal or almost (i.e. not having to bounce again before crossing the line), I think there were too many uncertainties. to say 'probably'.

Fair dos, I've only seen the match once.

Poorfour wrote:Did the replays on tv show the whole Sinckler incident? In the ground they only showed him grabbing the French player's headguard, but it happened just below me and the French player hit him first. In real time, it didn't look like much more than prop-sized handbags, and more than a penalty would have been a bit excessive.

As others have said, he was telling Owens that "he hit me first" and Owens and Farrell told him to be quiet. They never showed the incident that led to it though.

dummy_half wrote:Sinckler needs to smarten up - he was retaliating to something that happened at the edge of the ruck (it's not clear exactly what, but the French 7 definitely had a go at him first), but as so often it was the obvious response that caught the officials attention.

I'm going to defend Sinckler a bit here, they didn't pick up on Sinckler's "pat" until the TMO got involved because it all kicked off afterwards. I think the French 7 had another shove at Sinckler (who was walking away) and then Mark Wilson ran in. An English player nearly got pushed over the advertising hoardings as well in the melee.

If there was a punch by the French 7, it was obviously missed on the TMO review. It seems harsh to single out Sinckler too much when there were players on both sides contributing to the brawl which he only played a part in escalating. However, what he did was ultimately a penalty offence so he can't complain too much, even if others got away with theirs.