Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[robbo277]

Mako's out.

From England Rugby:

12 February 2019, 14:58
Following medical assessments Mako Vunipola (Saracens) has been ruled out of England’s Guinness Six Nations campaign with an ankle ligament injury.

Vunipola picked up the injury during England’s win against France on Sunday and is expected to be out for 10 weeks.

The England prop will begin his rehabilitation with his club Saracens.

England head coach Eddie Jones said: “It is obviously very disappointing to lose Mako at this stage as he is an important player for us but it does provide an opportunity for the team to grow.”

England will assemble in central London tomorrow lunchtime for a three-day camp ahead of their next match against Wales on the 23rd February in Cardiff.

Moon has showed he can step up and Genge will probably return to bench duty, but Mako gets through a bucket of work and has just gone from strength to strength in the scrum. The whole pack will have to step up to cover his absence, not just his direct replacement.

[majesticimperialman]

I see Half penny  is being brought back iin to the Wales squad, (1) Will he be fit enough to play against England? (2) will he play regardless of him not being match fit?

[Guest]

It’s only you who wouldn’t put England in the top tier.

In all honesty, and not wanting to fan the flames, but I think NZ are in a tier of their own.

They're in danger of losing that 1 team tier status almost solely because of themselves but I also think their performances have to be put in context - Tman is right about ABs resting players and getting RWC preparation correct. Their eyes were on the big prize. Even with England nearly at their best in the autumn, NZ never looked rushed, or panicked, and adapted on the fly when England shut them down. Perhaps lucky Lawes was just offside, but they also butchered 2-3 clear try scoring opportunities just before and after half-time that would have made for a very different game. Should have comfortably won the Lions Tour though, I think a mix of arrogance and complacency bit them there, as well as great work by the Lions.

So despite Ireland's 2 from 3 record against them, and England pushing them close, I still think NZ are a good margin ahead. There has been very little between Eng, Ire, and Wales from 2009ish. Very little. I'd say Wales move between top of the third tier, and middle of the second tier (Eng/Ire/maybe SA) when they actually fire. And although they haven't got a 6Ns title in this RWC cycle, they have 2 second place finishes, a win and a draw against Ireland, a win against Australia, and 3 wins against SA.

It's only really England who Wales have really struggled against (which is another reason why I get that English posters don't rate them) - and I think there are good reasons for that, namely England being a good, strong team. But I still think there's not too much between the teams. Eng and Ire show potential of hauling NZ's tier 'back down' where Waes probably cannot, but equally Wales can at least perform as well or better than Eng and Ire.

Again, these hypothetical 'tiers' are about as useful as comparing players in a composite team. But that's my thoughts.

[Collapse2005]

I see Half penny  is being brought back iin to the Wales squad, (1) Will he be fit enough to play against England? (2) will he play regardless of him not being match fit?

I bet he starts. Makes sense as his positioning in the backfield is very good and England will probably pepper wales with kicks.

[Guest]

The ariel battle will be fascinating in this game.

That's a Bold statement.

If the weather's anything like last year, and England insist on having the roof open, it could be another washout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC_mV1IpjWA

[dummy_half]

A shame to be missing Mako after a barnstorming performance against Ireland and a good 50-odd minutes against Wales.

On the upside, I think Genge is good and can play a fairly similar role to Mako (if not as good yet), and this probably weakens our front row less than the loss of either George or Sinckler would, because the drop in quality from the starter to the back-up is less.

[Ricardo74]

Moon has showed he can step up and Genge will probably return to bench duty, but Mako gets through a bucket of work and has just gone from strength to strength in the scrum. The whole pack will have to step up to cover his absence, not just his direct replacement.

Yup, no qualms about Moon holding his own, but as you say - Mako does a *lot*. I'd be thinking about our second rows, and whether bringing Launchbury in for Kruis alongside Lawes might be a mitigation against the workrate loss. That said, I don't have any stats to back-up my feeling that Launch offers more about the park than Kruis, it's just my perception.

Does change the dynamic of the side in a big way - you could say the tempo of the France game changed irreversibly when Mako went off.

[EnglishReign]

Talking about international cap numbers is a ridiculous argument when it comes to who’s better. So much more you could say in Tipuric’s favour, if you really wanted to.

[Guest]

Do people think Moon will start? Solid, yes, but I'm not sure he's test starter material. Do England not have someone they can leapfrog in?

[Ricardo74]

Do people think Moon will start? Solid, yes, but I'm not sure he's test starter material. Do England not have someone they can leapfrog in?

Ben Moon started against NZ and Aus in the Autumn, and won plaudits for his performances. I think he'll start.

[Rugby Fan]

Big loss for England

Definitely is, but, having got a lot of players back, it isn't too bad for World Cup preparation to have to deal with injuries, since that's a more normal state of affairs.

Have Ellis Genge and Kyle Sinckler ever been in the same England squad?

[robbo277]

Do people think Moon will start? Solid, yes, but I'm not sure he's test starter material. Do England not have someone they can leapfrog in?

It would be Genge, but Genge got 4 minutes against Ireland and then dropped (can't have been anything he did). Moon also got the Autumn series and held his own, but didn't offer as much as Mako does around the park.

Genge to start and an all-Exeter front row on the bench could be an option.

[robbo277]

Moon has showed he can step up and Genge will probably return to bench duty, but Mako gets through a bucket of work and has just gone from strength to strength in the scrum. The whole pack will have to step up to cover his absence, not just his direct replacement.

Yup, no qualms about Moon holding his own, but as you say - Mako does a *lot*. I'd be thinking about our second rows, and whether bringing Launchbury in for Kruis alongside Lawes might be a mitigation against the workrate loss. That said, I don't have any stats to back-up my feeling that Launch offers more about the park than Kruis, it's just my perception.

Does change the dynamic of the side in a big way - you could say the tempo of the France game changed irreversibly when Mako went off.

I'd agree, it feels like Launchbury gets through more work than Kruis, so that could be an option. I'm sure Eddie will have the actual stats though, and will be able to go off those!

[LondonTiger]

Do people think Moon will start? Solid, yes, but I'm not sure he's test starter material. Do England not have someone they can leapfrog in?

 Genge was on the bench for the Ireland game (along with Williams for TH). Jones chose to change his bench props for France, probably more for rotation than anything else.

Moon is experienced (at club level) and a strong scrummager. He covered well in the Autumn when Mako and Genge were injured. Genge is a very destructive scrummager on his day (but more variable than Moon), a big ball carrier and so long as he does not miss the tackle a big tackler. I would love to see him start next week.

This video is worth watching just for his collisions with Farrell, Hartley and JP Doyle

[Guest]

Do people think Moon will start? Solid, yes, but I'm not sure he's test starter material. Do England not have someone they can leapfrog in?

Ben Moon started against NZ and Aus in the Autumn, and won plaudits for his performances. I think he'll start.

Interesting, fair play then. Can't say I thought he was outstanding for Exeter - just a good, solid player - but EJ must like him and he must be good enough.

[Guest]

Genge looks disgusting. Somehow manages to be like the player who's hit puberty early and everyone's terrified of...but at professional level.

[majesticimperialman]

It is sad news about Mako. but i do not see the point in making any change/s unless there is a other injury.

[robbo277]

This video is worth watching just for his collisions with Farrell, Hartley and JP Doyle

Don't go high on him!

[Collapse2005]

Glorious highlights reel

[maestegmafia]

In that clip Genge looks more like Scott Gibbs than Jason Leonard

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Genge looks disgusting. Somehow manages to be like the player who's hit puberty early and everyone's terrified of...but at professional level.

Speak for yourself

[Guest]

Disgusting in the best way

[No 7&1/2]

Tough blow about Vunipola. I suppose if you want to bring in the nearest like for like then it's genge. Better in the scrum equally loves his ball playing bit obviously doesn't have the passing ability of Vunipola. Fortunately it's been sinckler picking up the alternative first receiver duties since the autumn. I imagine we'll go with moon and hopefully see Genge run riot later on.

[Poorfour]

This is what we will have to cope with in the RWC. Best to learn to do it now. Genge and Sinckler as starting props would be pretty spicy. It could be brilliant. It could be disastrous.

Even with England nearly at their best in the autumn, NZ never looked rushed, or panicked, and adapted on the fly when England shut them down.

Have to take issue with that on three counts, miaow.

Firstly, England weren't anywhere near their best; they were minus about half the team that Eddie started the 6N with, and with a hugely inexperienced pack - Moon, Underhill, Wilson, Shields, Hepburn, Williams and Ewels all had (and still have) fewer than 10 caps. The backs were better, and closer to the current config but Slade was just into double figures, Daly was in his third test as a fullback and there was no Manu.

Secondly, NZ may have looked calm, but I doubt they felt it. The 1014 did a very good analysis in which they worked through all the gameplans that England managed to nullify. NZ have more of them than any other team, which is impressive - but it's equally impressive to have a defensive system that can adapt to more than one plan and keep the pressure.

Finally, while NZ were experimenting with personnel and tactics, so were England, who were rebuilding personnel, attack and defence. That's not to say that NZ don't have more in reserve, but England are also showing a lot now that they didn't show in the AIs.

[BamBam]

Originally I would have said Moon to start for the strong set piece work, but after watching that video I'm all for letting Genge trample all over AWJ in the 2nd minute

[Pie]

So Mako out. Pity as he was on fire but good news for Wales. Is Itoje out too?

[BamBam]

There was some rumours he could possibly be fit for the Wales game but seems unlikely based on the initial news after the Ireland game

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I had an email earlier from England Rugby giving the match stats. If you hadn't read the score and number of tries scored, you would assume England had lost

Metres carried 431 / 557
Carries 127 / 163
Defenders beaten 16 / 33
Clean breaks 9 / 22
Offloads 7 / 20
Tackles 181 / 125
Missed tackles 33 / 16

It shows how stats can be deceiving as England controlled the game from start to finish

[Heaf]

or whoever was doing the stats was p*ssed

[Heaf]

Might have missed this in an earlier post but which Wales players are missing through injury that would normally be considered first choice?

[maestegmafia]

Might have missed this in an earlier post but which Wales players are missing through injury that would normally be considered first choice?

Currently Faletau and Shingler

[tazfalklands]

As I also said, I don't think England fear Wales as a team in the slightest. Too many weaknesses.

If that's the case someone needs to slap them. HARD. Personally I think the team will give Wales far more respect than many fans are giving them on here. Only possibility of an easy game is if Wales live up to their slow starters label. Half the team that got dropped for Italy only have the French game to get up to speed.

[Guest]

Very true Well Past It. And why I still think England aren't the finished article/have another meltdown in them somewhere down the line. Can't see it being this 6Ns though - more likely RWC.

I'm not a fan of EJ but he is a good coach at what he does. He's not a gameplan-esque Gatland or Schmidt character, someone who's there for the long haul, has a philosophy, demands buy in, and then delivers that. As with Japan, he's able to pick according to the strengths and then get those players playing to their full potential.

He appears to be very good at breaking down the game to its bare bones. Taking constituent parts and then binding them all back together again. Too often in the NH it feels like we can get bogged down in a kind of SH-lite style of rugby - trying to mimic the way Australian back moves work, say. I feel like Lancaster probably lost sight of this towards the end - trying to make England something they're not.

EJ broke down what a ruck is, what you can and cannot do, and basically just got players to steamroll in and hack the ball out with the feet. I used to do that frequently when I played and I never understood why more teams didn't do it at the top level. Now it's outlawed and so they've done something else very basic but devastatingly effective - and that's the attacking kicking game.

That's not saying that they're not very, very good at more technical aspects around the park. In fact they look very good at all the transitional minutiae now as well - I'd go as far to say that, on the basis of these first two games, I don't see a huge obvious weakness to the England team, whereas I could see weaknesses to them 2-3 years ago.

But they're almost playing a bit like NZ - not bothered about the overall stats, they'll score ruthlessly against you on the counter attack even if you dominate nearly every other area. It's the anti-Ireland and Wales, to an extent. The only obvious way to win is basically draw them into making mistakes, frustrate them and rely on being able to build pressure through phaseplay to make them concede points.

[Guest]

Give these a look. Very interesting:

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=294251&league=180659

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=294248&league=180659

[maestegmafia]

As I also said, I don't think England fear Wales as a team in the slightest. Too many weaknesses.

If that's the case someone needs to slap them. HARD. Personally I think the team will give Wales far more respect than many fans are giving them on here. Only possibility of an easy game is if Wales live up to their slow starters label. Half the team that got dropped for Italy only have the French game to get up to speed.

The other way to look at it is that the ten first choice players who didn’t start against Italy have had three weeks to prepare for England.

[Guest]

French stats quite clearly show a game of two halves though. England let up in the second 40. Otherwise it's more reflective of the fact that England battered a really poor French side from the off.

[Guest]

As I also said, I don't think England fear Wales as a team in the slightest. Too many weaknesses.

If that's the case someone needs to slap them. HARD. Personally I think the team will give Wales far more respect than many fans are giving them on here. Only possibility of an easy game is if Wales live up to their slow starters label. Half the team that got dropped for Italy only have the French game to get up to speed.

True. I think EJ's comments are already helping do that. The 'poles apart' reference - that'll fire up the English players. Don't really need much more motivation that than. Also sly digs about the 'best team' - Gatland's winning run is 11, wasn't EJ's 18 before finally losing? Very deliberate points by EJ that have been said for a reason. He was probably already thinking about the Wales game about half an hour into the France game...

[maestegmafia]

French stats quite clearly show a game of two halves though. England let up in the second 40. Otherwise it's more reflective of the fact that England battered a really poor French side from the off.

The poor defence of the french back three certainly helped. Their lack of positioning and general confusion was beautifully exposed by the English backline who had an absolute field day chipping the ball in to the cavernous space behind the french midfield.

I hope Shaun Edwards has his note book open whilst watching his home country smash the french.

[Heaf]

Might have missed this in an earlier post but which Wales players are missing through injury that would normally be considered first choice?

Currently Faletau and Shingler

Ta

[majesticimperialman]

As I also said, I don't think England fear Wales as a team in the slightest. Too many weaknesses.

If that's the case someone needs to slap them. HARD. Personally I think the team will give Wales far more respect than many fans are giving them on here. Only possibility of an easy game is if Wales live up to their slow starters label. Half the team that got dropped for Italy only have the French game to get up to speed.

The other way to look at it is that the ten first choice players who didn’t start against Italy have had three weeks to prepare for England.

The other way of lookung at it is that the ten that did not start against Italy with be a bit short of game time.

[Guest]

I'd also say that there isn't really a settled first team for Wales. Gone are the days of Warburton-Lydiate-Faletau, or Phillips-Priestland etc. I made another post on this about Welsh depth but no superstars, but in terms of first team players you could also add:

Ellis Jenkins
Leigh Halfpenny
(Rhys Webb)

[Taylorman]

Very true Well Past It. And why I still think England aren't the finished article/have another meltdown in them somewhere down the line. Can't see it being this 6Ns though - more likely RWC.

I'm not a fan of EJ but he is a good coach at what he does. He's not a gameplan-esque Gatland or Schmidt character, someone who's there for the long haul, has a philosophy, demands buy in, and then delivers that. As with Japan, he's able to pick according to the strengths and then get those players playing to their full potential.

He appears to be very good at breaking down the game to its bare bones. Taking constituent parts and then binding them all back together again. Too often in the NH it feels like we can get bogged down in a kind of SH-lite style of rugby - trying to mimic the way Australian back moves work, say. I feel like Lancaster probably lost sight of this towards the end - trying to make England something they're not.

EJ broke down what a ruck is, what you can and cannot do, and basically just got players to steamroll in and hack the ball out with the feet. I used to do that frequently when I played and I never understood why more teams didn't do it at the top level. Now it's outlawed and so they've done something else very basic but devastatingly effective - and that's the attacking kicking game.

That's not saying that they're not very, very good at more technical aspects around the park. In fact they look very good at all the transitional minutiae now as well - I'd go as far to say that, on the basis of these first two games, I don't see a huge obvious weakness to the England team, whereas I could see weaknesses to them 2-3 years ago.

But they're almost playing a bit like NZ - not bothered about the overall stats, they'll score ruthlessly against you on the counter attack even if you dominate nearly every other area. It's the anti-Ireland and Wales, to an extent. The only obvious way to win is basically draw them into making mistakes, frustrate them and rely on being able to build pressure through phaseplay to make them concede points.

Yeah gotta agree with that. For me the only thing that will stop England are themselves, or their coach having a major. If the two V's and Manu are in similar or better injury free form in japan and the rest are as they are now then we will have one finalist.

There is a NZ like look to their game, doing the basics well and they're adding little touches in terms of finding space, the little chip through's finding huge grassy areas in behind the defence. Shows what theyre capable of when everyones fit and available, something theyve only just got over from the Lions tour and key injuries.

However, seven months is a very long time in a World cup year, yet, so much to do...

For the other sides, they should switch to World cup thinking now...6N is gone for this year. None of the sides look remotely at Englands current level. Theyve played with both sides so far.

[Scottrf]

Not a chance England take Wales away lightly in my opinion. Look at the press conferences pre-France.

On the Halfpenny thing I think I’d rather he played than Williams. Despite me not thinking the missed tackle stats mean a great deal we are susceptible to the running game Williams provides in broken play. Halfpenny brings solidity but not pace as defensive cover and not threat.

[majesticimperialman]

Half penny is more of a threat  than Williams is when it come down to kicks at goal.

Williams is more of a threat when it comes to running  the ball back ( counter attack)

But the question is will Half penny be match fit in time?

[Bone Collector]

Mako's injury is awful news for Saracens, especially on the back of Maro's injury. Please can the ridiculous current timetable be sorted out so that Sarries can get through the season, in Europe and domestically, without the risk of injuries incurred playing in the Six Nations. Injuries sustained playing for Sarries I can live with, but for England (or Wales or Scotland) not so much. Thankfully (on multiple levels) we have no Ireland representatives. Playing international matches in the course of important club competitions is ridiculous.

[maestegmafia]

Might have missed this in an earlier post but which Wales players are missing through injury that would normally be considered first choice?

Currently Faletau and Shingler

Ta

And Ellis Jenkins I guess.

We can’t select our best scrum half unless he leaves Toulon.

[mikey_dragon]

Halfpenny isn’t required at this point. We have a good kicker and the back 3 is going well, with Anscombe able to go to 15. Faletau would have been really good coming off the bench though. If it’s the same back-row (Nav, Tips, Moriarty) then someone like Wainright could be useful on the bench.

[Sgt_Pooly]

French stats quite clearly show a game of two halves though. England let up in the second 40. Otherwise it's more reflective of the fact that England battered a really poor French side from the off.

Did England let up in the 2nd though, I'm not sure they did. To nil a side in the 2nd half after they came in 20+ pts down shows that there was a big step up defensively. We had chances to get more than the 14pts in the 2nd but either way, it's still a decent return. I just think they were different halves of rugby rather than England letting up, the defensive effort in the 2nd half was very impressive.

[robbo277]

French stats quite clearly show a game of two halves though. England let up in the second 40. Otherwise it's more reflective of the fact that England battered a really poor French side from the off.

Did England let up in the 2nd though, I'm not sure they did. To nil a side in the 2nd half after they came in 20+ pts down shows that there was a big step up defensively. We had chances to get more than the 14pts in the 2nd but either way, it's still a decent return. I just think they were different halves of rugby rather than England letting up, the defensive effort in the 2nd half was very impressive.  

They didn't execute as well in attack, there were a couple of chances that went begging. The defence held pretty firm. I think the whole intensity of the game dropped a little, I don't think it was just England. The second half seemed to drag. There was no doubt in the result and everything went a bit flatter.

I don't think the stats quite show a game of two halves. I think England are happier to let teams have the ball, and the stats against Ireland show something similar. England are making their forward metres through kicks, either in the air or on the ground. For instance;

May's first try: Daly kicked the ball about 40m out for May's first try and May skinned 3 defenders to get to the ball. In terms of stats and the way they are recorded, May has made 0 carries, made 0m and beaten 0 defenders
May's third try: Ashton kicked the ball from 25m, May outstripped two defenders to dot down.
Slade's try: Farrell kicked from our own 10m line, Lawes regathered on their 10m line. Youngs kicked into the 22 and Ashton gathered. First 40m made by kicks, 20m by running, Slade beats 1 defender at the end.
Penalty try: Slade intercepted on the 22 and ran to their 10m line. The last 40m the ball was gained by a kick and an early tackle
Farrell try: Youngs takes a penalty on our own 10m line and feeds Farrell. Farrell kicks it at their 10m again, and then 40m gained by kicks.

So across those 5 tries alone, England make 185m from kicks and beat all the cover defenders. Not reflected in the stats, but if you added those kicked metres gained, then the stats look more balanced.

[No 7&1/2]

Training squad announced as:
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Brad Shields (Wasps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs)
Owen Farrell (Saracens) 
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

No Clifford. No Robson or 2nd scrum half. I don't know why.

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