Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[Guest]

This discussion of pressure v mistakes is always a bit tricky to decipher. Most Welsh fans will accept that when Wales were able to put a few phases together, they either got over the try line (LW, Moriarty) or scored (TW's try). From the outside, it's easy to show how the mistakes swung the game.

Honestly, I think it's one of those where - when you're playing the game - you 'feel' the situation far better than a fan can see it. Wales always looked comfortable to me, always looked like they could up it - but then so did France. The issue was they couldn't do it in the way Wales could, with control and accuracy or at the very least without major risks and mistakes, and so threw an intercept.

Wales will need to train like beasts to prepare for England though. They've been 3rd gear so far and they'll need to be in 4th and 5th against England just to give them a shot of building the same kind of pressure.

[Guest]

Oh and I forgot to say - Huget's drop was during penalty advantage. It's a lineout throw in and around the French 22 if he doesn't drop it. Wales were turning the screw.

It's not too obvious when they do it - it's more like Ireland, just grinding away (albeit not as slowly/comprehensively) and tends to benefit the team enterting the final quarter. It's the model that worked against England in the RWC.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Fun fact for you - Scotland had more players name Jones in their team than Wales when they played recently in the AIs!

Do with that info what you will......

Well, we all know the Scots will poach players from anywhere, even Holland.

[LondonTiger]

Genge injured his ankle in training today.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Genge injured his ankle in training today.

Better get my boots cleaned up then

[lostinwales]

Genge injured his ankle in training today.

Any indication of how bad?

And does this mean we will get to a point in the match when 4 of Exeter's front row players will be on the pitch at the same time?

[LondonTiger]

Genge injured his ankle in training today.

Better get my boots cleaned up then

I would, but cannot bend to put my boots on anymore.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Genge injured his ankle in training today.

Better get my boots cleaned up then

I would, but cannot bend to put my boots on anymore.

Mine have ali studs, protect my ankles and came with a hardened toecap. Remember them?

[BamBam]

Oh excellent

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Oh excellent

They were in the 70s

[LondonTiger]

Genge injured his ankle in training today.

Better get my boots cleaned up then

I would, but cannot bend to put my boots on anymore.

Mine have ali studs, protect my ankles and came with a hardened toecap. Remember them?

Yeah, but the hardened toecaps used to get crushed to buggerey in the first game. And don't get me started on the pre kite mark aluminium studs. Like blooming razor blades.

[Gooseberry]

Fun fact for you - Scotland had more players name Jones in their team than Wales when they played recently in the AIs!

Do with that info what you will......

How many Shinglers?

[Guest]

Fun fact for you - Scotland had more players name Jones in their team than Wales when they played recently in the AIs!

Do with that info what you will......

How many Shinglers?

They didn’t make the (Shingler’s) list!

[lostinwales]

Media reports that the baby rhino was withdrawn from training with a sore ankle as a precaution. So they are hopeful there are no causes for concern.

[Mr Bounce]

Something tells me that Moon and Genge will be wrapped in cotton wool for the next week.

[mikey_dragon]

RE North, I’ve seen him score a few tries similar to the first one he recently scored against France. Not that it’s anything to do with a raging bull charging towards you of course..... North is difficult to stop when he’s in your 22 but i haven’t seen us work the ball wide with great success since the SA game.

[No 7&1/2]

I certainly.hope genge recovers quickly and it's just precaution. Him and sinckler lining up together looks tasty.

[maestegmafia]

Halfpenny was released to the scarlets for the weekend but is not going to play. Looks like he won’t be in the team to play England

[LondonTiger]

Halfpenny was released to the scarlets for the weekend but is not going to play. Looks like he won’t be in the team to play England

Seems a little odd if he is fit to play. Hope he is OK.

[maestegmafia]

Halfpenny was released to the scarlets for the weekend but is not going to play. Looks like he won’t be in the team to play England

Seems a little odd if he is fit to play. Hope he is OK.

I am sure the thought is to make sure he is fit for Japan. According to the press release it is a measure acted on by both the WRU and the Scarlets.

Great to see a players health being taken with the upmost care.

[Ricardo74]

Halfpenny was released to the scarlets for the weekend but is not going to play. Looks like he won’t be in the team to play England

Seems a little odd if he is fit to play. Hope he is OK.

I am sure the thought is to make sure he is fit for Japan. According to the press release it is a measure acted on by both the WRU and the Scarlets.

Great to see a players health being taken with the upmost care.

Yes, it is - for all the column inches and quotes about player welfare, it's great to see a Union putting its players first.

(Especially against England!)

[No 7&1/2]

Yes. Glad to see no risks are being taken and indeed it's better for us if Wales have fewer options!

[TightHEAD]

If 1/2p is still suffering side effects from that cowardly hit in the Autumn then I fear for his rugby future.

[Ricardo74]

Looks like Genge is fit to train today.

Which is Good News.

[maestegmafia]

Yes. Glad to see no risks are being taken and indeed it's better for us if Wales have fewer options!

I thought you would want to see England testing themselves against Wales’s best possible team?

Missing a few players :-

Faletau, Jenkins, Halfpenny. Though I think most players agree the one we miss the most is not injured or elidgable.

[TightHEAD]

I though Gethin retired?

[No 7&1/2]

I want to win first and foremost! We already stand a great chance but it obviously increases if Wales are limited in their choice of some very good players.

[TightHEAD]

If Wales win and go on to win the 6 nations will they be the Greatest Welsh team ever?

Serious question btw.

[No 7&1/2]

Statistically yes. In reality no.

[Recwatcher16]

Fully expect England to be quietly confident with EJ/Mitchell taking all the flak away from the players in the media build-up.
No-one has mentioned Will Carling being in the support team, as admittedly he has been very low profile but pretty sure he will have had a few words to say about playing in Dublin and Cardiff. He has a successful business as a corporate motivational speaker and certainly England looked like they were playing at home, in Dublin.

The welsh flyhalf debate must be massively distracting for the welsh squad in terms of style of play they wish to adopt but ultimately Anscombe doesn't look like having the right players around him to suit his offloading style. Wales still look like a team that have individual moments of vision/skill like an Adams break to score tries. Wales have the players for that but whether they will get enough opportunities remains to be seen.

England's record with SH refs away from home is appalling and there remains a blight on the game with liberal interpretations on sealing, off the ball at the tackle, entering rucks at 45 degrees (at best) and sliding round the side having lifted a player off the ball and ending up on the wrong side. Hookers lining up in front of their own props at lineout, the creeping offside line and the blatant blocking of chasers.
Refs need to start using the yellow cards, which is probably harsh but the above needs to be sorted to create and maintain a proper contest.

Meanwhile the clubs try to maintain a credible competition with games this weekend while the flag waving jamboree and general money spinner continues......

[LondonTiger]

England's record with SH refs away from home is appalling and there remains a blight on the game with liberal interpretations on sealing, off the ball at the tackle, entering rucks at 45 degrees (at best) and sliding round the side having lifted a player off the ball and ending up on the wrong side. Hookers lining up in front of their own props at lineout, the creeping offside line and the blatant blocking of chasers.

As sure as eggs is eggs whichever teams lose across the 6Ns next weekend, their fans will mention the opposition being offside from kicks and in defence. Heck the winning fans will as well. Yet they will all ignore that their own team were doing it for the whole game too.

Not behind the back foot, and in front of the kicker really annoy me as the Assistants should be picking this up with no trouble at all.

[Guest]

If Wales win and go on to win the 6 nations will they be the Greatest Welsh team ever?

Serious question btw.

In the professional era? One of, certainly. This clearly isn't the best Welsh team in the pro era - the mid 00s and late 00s teams had incredible backlines.The current 9 and 10 come nowhere near peak Peel and Phillips, nor Stephen Jones. And the pack isn't as quite as good as the early 'Warburton years' team.

But in terms of depth overall? This is definitely the best I can remember. The back-row depth is ridiculous. After Martyn Williams (and maybe Charvis) there was practically very little until Warburton came along at 7. Now players like Young and James Davies can't get in the squad, which is incredible really.

The issue with having depth, unfortunately, is that you can't really benefit from that in obvious, short term ways. I feel like this was England's problem under Lancaster - loads of very good players but no standouts in a few key positions. You can't pick them all at once - but it does mean an end, or at least a lessening, of the all-or-nothing approach and results Wales have had in the pro era.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Not behind the back foot, and in front of the kicker really annoy me as the Assistants should be picking this up with no trouble at all.

Yep, infuriating, and I don't think overlooking these offences is a price worth paying for a 'flowing' game, as it robs players of space and time in attack (even if it's only a second at a time). If someone's offside, tell them and then ping them. Give them an inch, et cetera.

[Guest]

Not behind the back foot, and in front of the kicker really annoy me as the Assistants should be picking this up with no trouble at all.

Yep, infuriating, and I don't think overlooking these offences is a price worth paying for a 'flowing' game, as it robs players of space and time in attack (even if it's only a second at a time). If someone's offside, tell them and then ping them. Give them and inch, et cetera.

Yeah, this was my grumble during the France v Wales game. And as LT says, I probably wasn't watching closely to see if Wales were doing it too. I'm sure they were. But the reason I noticed was that, as France were on top of us so much in the first half, I was wondering why we just didn't seem to have any space at all. So I was watching the defensive line more so than I would usually do. And it just seemed that more often than not the players seemed to take a step forward before the ball was out and that just helped them close down that space a little quicker. Doing it altogether is trickier to spot than one man rushing out on his own too. Sneaky! Fine lines, I appreciate. And not easy to see accurately on the TV.

I actually think it leads to the opposite of flowing rugby though. Yes, there are less whistle blows for penalties if you just let it go, so more 'flow' in that regard. But offside and the trend for the rush defence just spoils the running rugby element of 'flow' and we're left with a glorified version of British Bulldogs in midfield. Obviously the answer is to counter that and be inventive, and Wales are as much to blame as everyone for the game going this way with Edwards leading the charge (literally!) for this type of defensive pattern. But if it's policed properly I think the good teams will still be able to play a good brand of running rugby. But when the 'behind the back foot' is ignored and the line all moves up early en-masse it does stifle the game a little. I blame rugby league and those cross-over coaches!

[Guest]

Don't want to sound like I'm getting my excuses in early, and this is from the Fail so needs to be taken with a pinch of salt (someone posted it on Twitter), but we're seeing a number of claims about the impact on players' mental health and wellbeing caused by the changes afoot at the regions, the wage bandings, etc. It's always at the back (or front) of their minds which can't be good for preparation, etc. It's typical Daily Mail-esque reporting though, which reads like they could have just made it up and attributed to players 'who didn't want to be named'. That old chestnut. But we have had interviews with Dragons players in the local press saying similar things. Not good.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/petrified-welsh-rugby-players-seek-15835154

p.s. if Wales lose then this is DEFINITELY the reason why!

[RiscaGame]

I though Gethin retired?

No, him and Big Phil Vickery will have a few more battles yet.

[Guest]

I though Gethin retired?

No, him and Big Phil Vickery will have a few more battles yet.

That's one of the head-to-heads I'm looking forward to most a week Saturday. Worth the entrance fee alone.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I thought Big Phil was brilliant in Dublin. It's the best I've seen him play since the third Lions test in New Zealand.

[majesticimperialman]

With regards to Leigh Halfpenny's concussion.

He as not played since November and was due to play for the Scarlets this week, but has been with drawn. due to suffering a set back. It was thought that depending on how he went would depend on him playing for Wales against England.

Surely they are not thinking about throwing him against England with out any game time.

Not having had a head injurie/concussion my self. If he does not get back to playing soon, could his rugby playing day's be over. 

Does any know how long an injurie like Leigh as last could last.

[maestegmafia]

With regards to Leigh Halfpenny's concussion.

He has not played since November and was due to play for the Scarlets this week, but has been withdrawn, due to suffering a set back. It was thought that depending on how he went would depend on him playing for Wales against England.

Surely they are not thinking about selecting him against England without any game time?

Not having had a head injury or concussion myself. If he does not get back to playing soon, could his rugby playing day's be over?

Does any know how long an injurie like Leigh as last could last?

Madge you are obsessed with this is must be the fifth post asking whether the WRU will play Halfpenny even if he is injured or without gametime.

Considering the absolute extreme precaution that has been taken towards Halfpenny by the WRU and the Scarlets there is no chance that they would risk his health in any way. He would only be selected if it was an advantage for the team and unlikely to be detrimental to him.

[maestegmafia]

If Wales win and go on to win the 6 nations will they be the Greatest Welsh team ever?

Serious question btw.

In the professional era? One of, certainly. This clearly isn't the best Welsh team in the pro era - the mid 00s and late 00s teams had incredible backlines.The current 9 and 10 come nowhere near peak Peel and Phillips, nor Stephen Jones. And the pack isn't as quite as good as the early 'Warburton years' team.

But in terms of depth overall? This is definitely the best I can remember. The back-row depth is ridiculous. After Martyn Williams (and maybe Charvis) there was practically very little until Warburton came along at 7. Now players like Young and James Davies can't get in the squad, which is incredible really.

The issue with having depth, unfortunately, is that you can't really benefit from that in obvious, short term ways. I feel like this was England's problem under Lancaster - loads of very good players but no standouts in a few key positions. You can't pick them all at once - but it does mean an end, or at least a lessening, of the all-or-nothing approach and results Wales have had in the pro era.

It is hardly one team either. Over this last eleven matches we have seen Gatland make huge changes to his teams. Far more than Graham Henry was making in the run up to the 99 RWC. This is very much a reflection of squad rugby and the ability of second third and fourth choice players.

[robbo277]

There's no time frame on a concussion injury. You just have to do what the WRU and Scarlets are doing - when the player feels better you graduate to the next stage of recovery. If you get any further symptoms, you pull back.

If Halfpenny plays, I would both hope and think that a proper assessment of his physical wellbeing has been done and all the steps had been followed. If they have, then there should be no issue regarding recurrence, other than the standard risk of a fresh concussion.

[maestegmafia]

There's no time frame on a concussion injury. You just have to do what the WRU and Scarlets are doing - when the player feels better you graduate to the next stage of recovery. If you get any further symptoms, you pull back.

If Halfpenny plays, I would both hope and think that a proper assessment of his physical wellbeing has been done and all the steps had been followed. If they have, then there should be no issue regarding recurrence, other than the standard risk of a fresh concussion.

As mentioned before in the thread is it is obvious that the players welfare is paramount.

[Guest]

Good point maesteg. I keep going back to my other post but I still think, arguably, only 3 players are nailed on starters in this team: Faletau, AWJ, JD2. You can probably add Tipuric and Ken Owens there too but Gatland hasn't been a fan of either in the past.

The team that started against France is unlikely to be the team that Wales start with at the RWC. The team that Pivac starts with is also likely to be quite different too. So fair point.

[chris_501]

With Halfpenny seemingly out of contention, the Wales teams looks pretty much set now -

Rob Evs, Ken, Francis, AWJ, Beard, Navidi, Tips, Moriarty, Gareth Davies, Anscombe, Adams, Parkes, JD2, North and Sanjay.

Reps - Dee, Nicky Smith, Lee, Hill, Young, Tomos Williams, Biggar, Watkin

I would be very surprised if this wasn't the team we saw, although not necessarily the one I would select.

[Guest]

I’d prefer Biggar in that starting XV, but would go for the rest.

I’m a bit worried about the lack of ball carriers in that team though. Not sure we’ve ever had a good number of ball carriers but I don’t really see much there. We might have to be a bit more creative and go around rather than through England, if possible. Is Beard much of a carrying option? AWJ doesn’t make huge yards although he’s usually good for a few carries a game. Moriarty looks like a good carrier but doesn’t seem to get far. Owens is pretty good. Francis - a bit like Adam Jones in the past in that he looks like he should carry a lot but doesn’t seem to get far. Tips will make yards but it’s usually as clean breaks. Not great at carrying in traffic? Navidi? And the it’s the backs.

[No 7&1/2]

Apparently Biggar limped off after 20 min for Saints.

[majesticimperialman]

IF Biggar is out. Who will takes his place?

[No 7&1/2]

Wasn't nailed onto start anyway.anscombe.

[Guest]

Patchell takes his place on the bench. If both 1/2P and Biggar out Wales lose a key strength in kick %.

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