Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[Cyril]

Cuthbert had a certain amount of things going for him, but not outright pace. Hopefully for Wales they’ve move on since. Still not a fan of Davies and maybe I’ll be proved wrong?

[Cyril]

Haha miaow

[lostinwales]

Problem with Cuthbert is not the top end speed, it's the time and space he needs to reach it.

[Guest]

Cuthbert was hands down the quickest in the Wales squad when he played. His top end pace was better than North's (if the issue is acceleration, there was enough space and time for him to get up to speed - he was too slow to react, not too slow overall). Again, had his positioning been good enough/had he started shutting Daly down earlier and stopped pretending he was covering the man inside, he could/should have at least had a sideways tackle on Daly.

https://youtu.be/FoJUts44Dak?t=307

[lostinwales]

Cuthbert absolutely ran riot in one game vs England - but he never felt like a threat in any of the others.

[Guest]

Right. Had a look at the try. Going to break it down with screenshots - but the best thing to do is go and watch it. It's very easy to get the sense that some people simply disagree with my points on these boards because it's me...

https://youtu.be/sYAbIoe_bw8?t=31

[Scottrf]

Nah agree that that try didn’t have much to do with pace but bare in mind I could do a childish drawing showing Daly ran further in another unfair contest.

[Cyril]

Bad kick by Davies (makes a change from him passing into touch or missing a simple 2 on 1, but hey), pinpoint passes by Ford and Farrell, Cuthbert getting absolutely skinned by Daly, Biggar blaming others. Sums it up.

[Guest]

#1: Farrell has the ball. This is the last moment Cuthbert is looking at Daly. Daly is jogging to stay behind Farrell, who is tracking across field to pin Jamie Roberts.


#2: This is the moment Cuthbert takes his eye off Daly to look at Farrell. Farrell speeds up to fix Roberts - so does Daly.


#3: Cuthbert still looking at Farrell, preparing to cover Daly who is speeding up


#4: Farrell releasing the ball to Daly. Roberts fixed, Cuthbert showing Daly the outside.


#5: This is the first time Cuthbert looks at Daly since he took his eyes off him on at #2. There is no scanning, no checking back and forth - he has been ball watching Farrell. Ball in mid flight.


#6: Farrell has delivered a fast and fairly flat pass that Daly - who is speeding up the whole time - has been able to accelerate on to without breaking stride. Cuthbert starting to now close his body and come across for the tackle.


#7: Daly takes the ball seamlessly. Cuthbert realises Daly has the jump on him and puts his head down to try and have a burst of speed to bridge the gap. Focused solely on getting up to speed to cover the ground he wasn't anticipating having to cover so soon when ball watching.


#8: Cuthbert takes the shorter, inside line, and at this stage is level/just in front of Daly, both heading back towards the try-line just inside the 22.


#9: However, Daly is nearly at full tilt here, whereas Cuthbert has barely got going. Cuthbert forced to make a desperate tackle instead of guide him either inside/to touch, or force him to take contact.


#10: Despite appearing to be close enough to slice through Daly at thigh or ankle level, Cuthbert goes high. Incredibly, he's able to get his left hand round to Daly's outside, showing that he is certainly close enough to make some sort of leg tackle (even if he takes a boot to the face) 7m from the tryline, travelling at a slight angle.


#11: The tackle decision is a poor one. A combination of Daly going quicker than Cuthbert, a terrible tackle decision, and even worse tackle execution means Cuthbert simply slips off the back of his man - despite appearing to have hold of him - without any of the power required to roll his shoulders inside to drag him over the touchline.


#12: Daly scores in the corner. Cuthbert has had an absolute shocker. Biggar looks disgusted. Jon and Gareth Davies both culpable for the concession as well, but poor play for Cuthbert - primarily for ball watching and then having to expose his insufficient skills to make up for poor positioning.

[Cyril]

You do have to feel for Cuths though when he crashes against the flag, like Frankenstein’s Monster when he’s lost the girl Grrrahh

[Cyril]

Davies is the one who should hang his head. Decent kick, England line out and defend it. Cuthbert is bad, he’s normally bad, but the scapegoat here.

[Guest]

So yes. The issue with Cuthbert, as ever, was game awareness and basic skills. Not pace.

[Cyril]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Cuthbert lacked the basic skills. He was quick, but not proper quick. Anyway, he really is yesterday’s man. Does North still have the pace or will he get twisted blood against real speed on the weekend?

[Pie]

Cuthbert is fast but is an absolute donkey in any other area of the game especially defense, kicking, retaining ball, not giving away mindless pens.

In fact that is grossly unfair on donkeys who can at least kick ffs.

[mikey_dragon]

Cuthbert did turn out to be a bit of a donkey. There were many occasions where he fluffed things up, the QF against SA being another prime example. The public and even Gatland had lost faith in him long before that England match it seemed, only Howley was stupid enough to keep picking him, the whole time believing that having a “...we got the Lions back 3..” would get us places. Howley is another lame donkey that needs putting out of its misery.

[yappysnap]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse? Or Gatland etc just saw the size of him and assumed he'd be great? I always remember him looking well out of his depth when ever I saw him play.

[mikey_dragon]

Cuthbert was awesome when he first burst onto the scene. He played in a decent team where he fit into the game plan of having backs bigger than forwards. I think after a while that other teams seen his weaknesses and were able to work him out pretty easily. Big, strong, fast, and looked really good outside O’Driscoll is all he had going for him.

[Rugby Fan]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse?

He didn't let anyone down on the Lions tour, and took his try well in the First Test.

[maestegmafia]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse?

He didn't let anyone down on the Lions tour, and took his try well in the First Test.

Players have periods of form and fallow patches

May was known as a headless chicken, now he is the best in the world.

[Gooseberry]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse?

He didn't let anyone down on the Lions tour, and took his try well in the First Test.

Players have periods of form and fallow patches

May was known as a headless chicken, now he is the best in the world.

There was a time that Cuthbert was second best wing in the NH behind Tim Visser

Worth noting that Chris "redefining wing play" Ashton has only scored 5 tries in his last 30 tests, whereas Jack "doesn't score enough" Nowell has 12 in his last 30.

[maestegmafia]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse?

He didn't let anyone down on the Lions tour, and took his try well in the First Test.

Players have periods of form and fallow patches

May was known as a headless chicken, now he is the best in the world.

There was a time that Cuthbert was second best wing in the NH behind Tim Visser

Worth noting that Chris "redefining wing play" Ashton has only scored 5 tries in his last 30 tests, whereas Jack "doesn't score enough" Nowell has 12 in his last 30.

Nowell is a worry for the opposition as much as May is

[maestegmafia]

Just a little reminder to everyone that this thread is for discussing rugby not attacking or provoking each other.

[Rugby Fan]

Nowell is a worry for the opposition as much as May is

I have heard at least two pundits make the case that Nowell should start because Mako is out. They think his work rate will help compensate for what we miss when Mako isn't on the pitch.

[No 7&1/2]

An indication that Genge is set to start?

'I'm not going to say I am going to jump into Mako's boots, because he is unreal," he said.

"He is probably the best in our position in the world, and I don't think you can replace what he has done, especially off the pitch, he has been a bit of a glue for us.

"But I will give it my best crack, and I will be myself.'

Wider article and quotes are on the beeb. Wales v England: Ellis Genge will not change as he fills in for Mako Vunipola - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47288844

[lostinwales]

An indication that Genge is set to start?

'I'm not going to say I am going to jump into Mako's boots, because he is unreal," he said.

"He is probably the best in our position in the world, and I don't think you can replace what he has done, especially off the pitch, he has been a bit of a glue for us.

"But I will give it my best crack, and I will be myself.'

Wider article and quotes are on the beeb. Wales v England: Ellis Genge will not change as he fills in for Mako Vunipola - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47288844

The only thing is certain is that both Genge and Moon will get significant game time.

I feel that Moon will probably be more used to the pace of an international but that Genge will have more impact and is a much closer fit to the role filled by Mako. So do you start with Genge and let him run himself into the ground knowing you have a reliable back up, or do you release Genge late on in the anticipation that he can run riot at the end? Thinking of it like that I'd start him.

[maestegmafia]

An indication that Genge is set to start?

'I'm not going to say I am going to jump into Mako's boots, because he is unreal," he said.

"He is probably the best in our position in the world, and I don't think you can replace what he has done, especially off the pitch, he has been a bit of a glue for us.

"But I will give it my best crack, and I will be myself.'

Wider article and quotes are on the beeb. Wales v England: Ellis Genge will not change as he fills in for Mako Vunipola - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47288844

He’s booked the tattooist already apparently. Who new insider info would come from the tattoo parlour

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-rugby-star-set-dragon-15851277

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah I'd like to see him start. Best scrummaging loose head we have for my money and much better than Moon in the loose. Wales will try to rile both him and Sinckler I'm sure.

He'll get a cap maes whether starting or from the bench. Just thought his comment on jumping in his boots suggests it'll be a start.

[robbo277]

I think I'd start Genge too and have an all-Exeter front row on the bench. That familiarity may help at the end of the game.

We know Moon can go out and give a solid 6/10 performance at international level, Genge is more of an unknown quantity but could be a much more destructive player. Let's start him. Worst case scenario we can hook him after 30 minutes - as Eddie has been known to do - and Moon can come on to settle things down. To be honest, that's a completely risk-free move because if Moon then goes down injured Genge can come back on.

Regardless of how it goes against Wales, I hope Genge gets good game time over the next 3 games. You'd think one or two strong performances may see him in line for a World Cup call-up.

[maestegmafia]

Yeah I'd like to see him start. Best scrummaging loose head we have for my money and much better than Moon in the loose. Wales will try to rile both him and Sinckler I'm sure.

He'll get a cap maes whether starting or from the bench. Just thought his comment on jumping in his boots suggests it'll be a start.

He has looked very exciting for a while. If he can translate some of that potential on the pitch on Saturday he will cause problems all over the park.

[maestegmafia]

Ten greatest Wales vs England matches article.

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/2019/02/18/ten-of-the-greatest-wales-v-england-championship-clashes/

[Guest]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse? Or Gatland etc just saw the size of him and assumed he'd be great? I always remember him looking well out of his depth when ever I saw him play.

Not so much the size of him, but his speed. Cuthbert is the epitome of a Gatlandball player - very, very good at some facets of the game. He was/is incredibly fast, a very natural and well balanced runner, and he scored some fantastic tries. He wasn't a brilliant finisher - too often tried to just rely on his pace on the outside and got pushed into touch. But he had all the raw attributes to be a fantastic test winger. His size, actually, was a bit of an illusion, because he wasn't very strong at all. He's more lanky than 'big' like North is, and he got bumped off tackles/rucks quite easily.

His basic skills are some of the worst I've seen from a pro rugby player in Wales for a while. Certainly for a back. He looked out of his depth for the Blues, let alone Wales or the Lions. However, as I said, his game against England was one of his better ones and he was looking 'better' as a player - as you'd hope happens with experience. But he missed both tackles for England's tries in that game - obviously the Daly one, and also (perhaps a bit harsh) he made a poor effort at stopping Ben Youngs from close range.

He was picked because there wasn't much else in Wales. Tom James? Eli Walker, whose muscles finally gave up on him a few years ago at 25? No-one had adequate pace to be a test level winger, and Cuthbert did perform in 2012 and 2013. Came from 7s and managed to transfer his natural gait to the 15 man game. It was very clear that he was very raw though - and, a bit like Priestland, he wilted in the heat of the public eye. Ultimately, I think you could also say he wasn't managed particularly well, but by all accounts he also believed the hype whilst simultaneously looking desperately uncomfortable on a rugby pitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZEdNu3R7zk and the videos I posted on the other page are good examples of his pace and finishing. Nice languid running style.

The Exeter move was the perfect move for him. Should have happened 2-3 years ago. They'll sort him out and probably get 2-3 years of quality finishing from him but obviously too late now for Wales.

[maestegmafia]

Not much info from Mcbride in the press conference. Mainly questions asked from the stories in the press so far this week on Gatland taking the England job, halfpennys fitness and the roof

[Guest]

Not surprising.

One minor surprise I can see is Nicky Smith starting ahead of Rob Evans. Think Wales will look to disrupt England at the breakdown as they managed to last year without conceding penalties. Nicky Smith was good against Australia doing that. If you also have Ken, AWJ, Navidi and then the big one Tipuric going in on the ball at successive rucks, you're likely to win penalties.

[Rugby Fan]

The Exeter move was the perfect move for him. Should have happened 2-3 years ago. They'll sort him out and probably get 2-3 years of quality finishing from him

Exeter acquired a reputation for taking unwanted, or unfancied players, and getting the best out of them almost instantly. I'm not an Exeter supporter but I had high hopes we'd see Cutbert showing his old peak Wales form, because I'm a sucker for a comeback story. Think it's fair to say it hasn't panned out that way so far.

[Pie]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse?

He didn't let anyone down on the Lions tour, and took his try well in the First Test.

Players have periods of form and fallow patches

May was known as a headless chicken, now he is the best in the world.

Bit too early to be saying that, he did his job and finished off a few tries. Lets see how he does defensively when under the cosh.

[lostinwales]

How did Cuthbert get picked so often? Genuine question, was it because he started out with a lot of promise but got worse?

He didn't let anyone down on the Lions tour, and took his try well in the First Test.

Players have periods of form and fallow patches

May was known as a headless chicken, now he is the best in the world.

Bit too early to be saying that, he did his job and finished off a few tries. Lets see how he does defensively when under the cosh.

Best in the world is a silly title, although he is amongst the best. No worries about his defense. It is not a real strength but not a weakness either, and you'll struggle to find another player who can defend both wings at the same time. May has been around long enough for his character to be proven.

Oh - and not saying he will but if you kick to him and mess up the kick chase he is more capable than most of making you pay for it.

[Pie]

Genge to replace Mako who is best in the world, May is also best in the world. Sounds to me that this is the best English team, in the world, that Wales will be facing.

[Ricardo74]

Interesting snippet from a Guardian article today:

"Might a Welsh victory this weekend be written in the stars? The following sequence would certainly suggest so ... in the corresponding fixtures in 1949, 1959, 1969, 1979, 1989, 1999 and 2009 Wales have beaten England every time. Should the pattern repeat itself, Eddie Jones’s squad can hardly claim they were not forewarned."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/feb/19/wales-alun-wyn-jones-six-nations-england

[lostinwales]

Genge to replace Mako who is best in the world, May is also best in the world. Sounds to me that this is the best English team, in the world, that Wales will be facing.

Thought you lot were all too happy to have Mako listed as best in the world given his accent.

This team is currently the best English team in the world, just like yours is the best Welsh team. Strange comment.

[No 7&1/2]

England does have the best team. Been telling you lot for a while. Doesn't mean we'll certainly win this week. Stands us in good stead though.

[RiscaGame]

Interesting snippet from a Guardian article today:

"Might a Welsh victory this weekend be written in the stars? The following sequence would certainly suggest so ... in the corresponding fixtures in 1949, 1959, 1969, 1979, 1989, 1999 and 2009 Wales have beaten England every time. Should the pattern repeat itself, Eddie Jones’s squad can hardly claim they were not forewarned."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/feb/19/wales-alun-wyn-jones-six-nations-england

Crazy. I can't see it still, but it is tempting to cover a bet now just in case.

[Ricardo74]

Interesting snippet from a Guardian article today:

"Might a Welsh victory this weekend be written in the stars? The following sequence would certainly suggest so ... in the corresponding fixtures in 1949, 1959, 1969, 1979, 1989, 1999 and 2009 Wales have beaten England every time. Should the pattern repeat itself, Eddie Jones’s squad can hardly claim they were not forewarned."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/feb/19/wales-alun-wyn-jones-six-nations-england

Crazy. I can't see it still, but it is tempting to cover a bet now just in case.

I've just checked, and England did win in 1929 & 1939 though...

[RiscaGame]

Damn it. Put my money away now

[maestegmafia]

Interesting snippet from a Guardian article today:

"Might a Welsh victory this weekend be written in the stars? The following sequence would certainly suggest so ... in the corresponding fixtures in 1949, 1959, 1969, 1979, 1989, 1999 and 2009 Wales have beaten England every time. Should the pattern repeat itself, Eddie Jones’s squad can hardly claim they were not forewarned."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/feb/19/wales-alun-wyn-jones-six-nations-england

Crazy. I can't see it still, but it is tempting to cover a bet now just in case.

I've just checked, and England did win in 1929 & 1939 though...

So Wales should win this year but not 2029-39?

Horology surprises me every time.

[Scottrf]

Seems a bit irrelevant. Apart from AWJ which of the current Welsh players was in the 1949 team?

[Pie]

England does have the best team. Been telling you lot for a while. Doesn't mean we'll certainly win this week. Stands us in good stead though.

So if you have the best team but that doesn't mean you'll win this week then how can it be the best team? Surely it needs to be bester?

[Scottrf]

England does have the best team. Been telling you lot for a while. Doesn't mean we'll certainly win this week. Stands us in good stead though.

So if you have the best team but that doesn't mean you'll win this week then how can it be the best team? Surely it needs to be bester?

In which sport does the best team in the world win every game?

[Pie]

England does have the best team. Been telling you lot for a while. Doesn't mean we'll certainly win this week. Stands us in good stead though.

So if you have the best team but that doesn't mean you'll win this week then how can it be the best team? Surely it needs to be bester?

In which sport does the best team in the world win every game?

Good point. But England are the best team. May and Mako, Itoje, Farrell etc all the best.

[Guest]

...in the world?

[No 7&1/2]

Retallick is better than Itoje.

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