Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[Sgt_Pooly]

He's been tested in some regards and he's hardly caught a thing. I find it crazy that he's not been pushed back and put under pressure more in our half, as he's got a major weakness in his game. I wonder if it's a ploy to have May try and cover a bit more as he's took quite a few and he's also pretty safe.

[lostinwales]

By and large it has. Too often the trend now appears to be half-heartedly go through another two phases where the opposition will flop on the ball and your supporting forwards don't think it's worth clearing them out. Or an up and under kick from the first phase the advantage is given that is far too deep and no-one chases.

There are much better ways of utilising advantage. The main one should be to inject pace in the movement, perhaps go through 3/4 phases to do this, then put a contestable, pre-planned kick in - doesn't always have to be a bomb.

Alternatively, we see the flipside of wasting advantage and that is playing the advantage when you need it. The Scarlets were 6 points down to Treviso at the weekend, 60 seconds to go, advantage on halfway. They end up going through another 4 phase, earning 10m, but it's all fairly slow ball. It was chance that they got the penalty brought back (think they knocked it on/there was a mistake somewhere) as there appeared no intention of stopping play and taking the penalty so they could go for the corner. I have to say that reactive game management is still seriously lacking at times in Union. Being aware of speed of ball, pitch position, advantages etc. are far better utilised in League. In any case, the Scarlets took the penalty, a brilliant kick to the 5m line, and then threw the lineout straight to the first Treviso jumper.

But it would be interesting to see how penalty advantages are utilised by teams. Wales are one of the worst under Gatland - they just slow up and take the points/kick to touch. England and NZ two of the best - they do up the intensity and try and make a linebreak. Wonder if that impression I have is supported by the stats.

The one that stood out for me was Ben Youngs against France after the Bamba (I think) high tackle on Manu, where we turned down advantage. A nothing incident in a nothing position, Youngs asks for the penalty immediately, gets his hands on the ball, taps and runs past the helpless French defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him. I think he made 10m and then 7 seconds later Farrell was dotting down for a try. At first I wasn't sure why he hadn't used the advantage, but it worked out well and if he had have played a few phases under advantage and then come back, the result would have been a lineout between the French 22 and 10m line.

You could argue that a little more scrutiny of the tackle may have lead to a yellow card, but it was a great try

[munkian]

Aye, that was a short advantage. Tidy kick into the corner though.

Yeah, John Terry ain’t my idea of a stand up guy either, but we all know how crying (albeit in a good way) isn’t necessarily the way to prepare. I recall Dayglo (I think) saying how he once over-invested himself in the anthem and didn’t perform as he might. Similar to how our NZ brethren (fans) say they sometimes roar themselves to a standstill with the Haka.

Having said all that, it’s really just a little corporate team-building to fill out the break week. You would hope that Terry got involved in a bit of tackle bag training with Lawes though, just for fun.

I'd be interested to know what Terry said to them. It obviously wasn't the pre-game changing room speech a la Al Pacino's life is a game of inches speech because it's far too early in the week for that.

For all his personal flaws Terry was a very successful captain at Chelsea despite being quite a limited player in terms of his lack of pace and ability with the ball at his feet. At England level he won a large number of caps, captained the side for a long time and even had a coach resign 4 months before a major tournament when the FA stripped him of the captaincy. I'm sure he'll have a lot of insight into top level sport.

If you need extra motivation for playing Wales in Cardiff to pretty much secure a grand slam then why are you even playing ?

[No 7&1/2]

Sounds like Terry was there mainly to talk of leadership. I read that as if things went wrong with Chelsea or England who did players turn to. What was expected of the team in terms of thinking on their feet etc. Can't obviously apply all the outcomes of tactics to rugby but there's stuff you can pick up.

[Guest]

Aye, that was a short advantage. Tidy kick into the corner though.

Yeah, John Terry ain’t my idea of a stand up guy either, but we all know how crying (albeit in a good way) isn’t necessarily the way to prepare. I recall Dayglo (I think) saying how he once over-invested himself in the anthem and didn’t perform as he might. Similar to how our NZ brethren (fans) say they sometimes roar themselves to a standstill with the Haka.

Having said all that, it’s really just a little corporate team-building to fill out the break week. You would hope that Terry got involved in a bit of tackle bag training with Lawes though, just for fun.

I'd be interested to know what Terry said to them. It obviously wasn't the pre-game changing room speech a la Al Pacino's life is a game of inches speech because it's far too early in the week for that.

For all his personal flaws Terry was a very successful captain at Chelsea despite being quite a limited player in terms of his lack of pace and ability with the ball at his feet. At England level he won a large number of caps, captained the side for a long time and even had a coach resign 4 months before a major tournament when the FA stripped him of the captaincy. I'm sure he'll have a lot of insight into top level sport.

However easy it is to mock him there's no doubt he was a fantastic defender. The general standard of defening in the Premier League seems to have declined in the last decade, for a few reasons, but watching him at his peak is still impressive. A perfect foil to Rio Ferdinand's natural ability, but a bit like Carragher, he was underrated with the ball at his feet.

In terms of motivation, he's been doing corporate speaking for the best part of a decade I believe. Imagine he could tailor that to fit pro athletes quite easily, even if in a different sport.

[Guest]

By and large it has. Too often the trend now appears to be half-heartedly go through another two phases where the opposition will flop on the ball and your supporting forwards don't think it's worth clearing them out. Or an up and under kick from the first phase the advantage is given that is far too deep and no-one chases.

There are much better ways of utilising advantage. The main one should be to inject pace in the movement, perhaps go through 3/4 phases to do this, then put a contestable, pre-planned kick in - doesn't always have to be a bomb.

Alternatively, we see the flipside of wasting advantage and that is playing the advantage when you need it. The Scarlets were 6 points down to Treviso at the weekend, 60 seconds to go, advantage on halfway. They end up going through another 4 phase, earning 10m, but it's all fairly slow ball. It was chance that they got the penalty brought back (think they knocked it on/there was a mistake somewhere) as there appeared no intention of stopping play and taking the penalty so they could go for the corner. I have to say that reactive game management is still seriously lacking at times in Union. Being aware of speed of ball, pitch position, advantages etc. are far better utilised in League. In any case, the Scarlets took the penalty, a brilliant kick to the 5m line, and then threw the lineout straight to the first Treviso jumper.

But it would be interesting to see how penalty advantages are utilised by teams. Wales are one of the worst under Gatland - they just slow up and take the points/kick to touch. England and NZ two of the best - they do up the intensity and try and make a linebreak. Wonder if that impression I have is supported by the stats.

The one that stood out for me was Ben Youngs against France after the Bamba (I think) high tackle on Manu, where we turned down advantage. A nothing incident in a nothing position, Youngs asks for the penalty immediately, gets his hands on the ball, taps and runs past the helpless French defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him. I think he made 10m and then 7 seconds later Farrell was dotting down for a try. At first I wasn't sure why he hadn't used the advantage, but it worked out well and if he had have played a few phases under advantage and then come back, the result would have been a lineout between the French 22 and 10m line.

Interesting. You don't really see the quick tap too often these days - a bit like you don't see a snipe from the 9, either. Not sure many refs would allow that either. Most call it so that, if you 'ask' for the advantage to finish early, and the penalty to be awarded straight away, you can't take the quick tap. Too much of an advantage to the attacking team, although I think this is more discretion than a law (might be wrong). But Nige is Nige and loves to watch the game flow. If there's any team you want to utilise the quick tap against, though, it's France and their defence.

[Guest]

I can see a few curveballs to Wales' selection. 2 out of 3 of Nicky Smith, 1/2P and Jake Ball to start.

[maestegmafia]

I can see a few curveballs to Wales' selection. 2 out of 3 of Nicky Smith, 1/2P and Jake Ball to start.

I don’t see the coaches suggest anything other than halfpenny is being wrapped in cotton wool. Smith or Evans close call happy with either. Would play Hill or Beard before Ball. Ball is a great player but I rate the other two higher as I see them as more intelligent players. It will be the top two inches that win this match.

[BamBam]

The top European clubs play at the highest level football has to offer in my mind, and to achieve the kind of success that Terry did, you need to sustain a level of performance for 9/10 months week in week out, there's no time to rest or to overlook certain matches in favour of something coming up down the line

In a RWC year, its essentially the same thing for our players. They need to sustain this level of performance from the AIs for practically a year, even factoring in the summer. They can't overlook something relatively insignificant such as a match vs Italy in two weeks time, or take it easy in one of the RWC warm ups. As someone else said above, this type of leadership talk is common in the corporate world, if there is any value to be gained why not give it a go

Wales in Cardiff is not the be all and end all for us, but its certainly a measuring stick

[Scottrf]

After the Six Nations and our warm up games, the World Cup games look a bit of a downer to be honest. We'll be putting 50+ points on the first two teams and the next couple aren't exactly scary.

[munkian]

WOL are saying Anscombe will start.

They are a bumbaclart of a paper but they must have some inside knowledge as their predictions have been spot on so far.

[LondonTiger]

After the Six Nations and our warm up games, the World Cup games look a bit of a downer to be honest. We'll be putting 50+ points on the first two teams and the next couple aren't exactly scary.

I wonder how Eddie will approach selection for those first two games?

With just 3 days in-between them and then a long gap until Argentina I wonder if he will put out two sides mixing first choice and back-up giving everyone a game then select full strength for Argentina in game 3.

[lostinwales]

WOL are saying Anscombe will start.

They are a bumbaclart of a paper but they must have some inside knowledge as their predictions have been spot on so far.

Would also make sense if there is any doubt at all over Biggar's knee.

[Guest]

Wales in Cardiff is not the be all and end all for us, but its certainly a measuring stick

Yeah it is, don't lie. Don't you remember Supergrass's 1999 song 'As Long As We Beat The Welsh'?

[RiscaGame]

WOL are saying Anscombe will start.

They are a bumbaclart of a paper but they must have some inside knowledge as their predictions have been spot on so far.

Delme definitely has insider knowledge, which makes the trash he usually produces more frustrating. Still, it’s not as bad as his twitter output after he has had a skinful.

[Guest]

Anscombe's the starting 10 now for Wales unless/until he does something really drastic in a few games. Unlikely to happen before the RWC. Biggar better off the bench than Anscombe anyway I feel. Wales will need security in the final quarter and he offers that.

[LondonTiger]

Wales in Cardiff is not the be all and end all for us, but its certainly a measuring stick

Yeah it is, don't lie. Don't you remember Supergrass's 1999 song 'As Long As We Beat The Welsh'?

 Ah that long lost classic that inspired the Stereophonics?

[munkian]

WOL are saying Anscombe will start.

They are a bumbaclart of a paper but they must have some inside knowledge as their predictions have been spot on so far.

Delme definitely has insider knowledge, which makes the trash he usually produces more frustrating. Still, it’s not as bad as his twitter output after he has had a skinful.

100 %

[Guest]

"We really wanna be your enemy,
And when we're on the field,
It's red, white and Green(wood),

Gone and beat by the Irish,
Gone and beat by the Scots,
The French weren't a struggle,
But you're the one we want,
We want...

As long as we beat the Welsh,
As long as we beat the Welsh,
As long as we beat the Welsh, we don't care (about devolution)"

[No 7&1/2]

If it was a 99 release they should have been singing the welsh and kiwis surely.

[Guest]

Haha, very good.

If written today, of course, it would have to be a Commonwealth anthem rather than an English one.

[Scottrf]

After the Six Nations and our warm up games, the World Cup games look a bit of a downer to be honest. We'll be putting 50+ points on the first two teams and the next couple aren't exactly scary.

I wonder how Eddie will approach selection for those first two games?

With just 3 days in-between them and then a long gap until Argentina I wonder if he will put out two sides mixing first choice and back-up giving everyone a game then select full strength for Argentina in game 3.

From memory, I think he's said strongest team for the first game. He did a talk at the Oxford Student Union and I think I remember him saying there.

[Guest]

I can see a few curveballs to Wales' selection. 2 out of 3 of Nicky Smith, 1/2P and Jake Ball to start.

I don’t see the coaches suggest anything other than halfpenny is being wrapped in cotton wool. Smith or Evans close call happy with either. Would play Hill or Beard before Ball. Ball is a great player but I rate the other two higher as I see them as more intelligent players. It will be the top two inches that win this match.

Reposted/ripped off version of Sam Warburton's Sunday Times article where he goes for Nicky Smith and Jake Ball: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sam-warburton-names-wales-team-15843184

Promise I wasn't just copying what he said! Some pretty interesting calls all round there. Opting for Dylan Lewis over Samson as bench impact. Watched Lewis got taken apart by Saracens at the Arms Park a few weeks back. Definitely a good prospect but, for me, he's not ready for this sort of level quite yet. Also went for Gareth Davies and Biggar - interesting insight as Tomos and Anscombe are a club pairing (and his club as well). Not sure the other two have really ever clicked as a 9 and 10 - remember Biggar b0ll0cking Gareth Davies against Australia in 2015 when Wales were camped on their line. He went for a snipe or a dummy or something instead of giving the ball to Biggar when Wales had a two man advantage in the backline.

But I would still go for Ball. Maybe from the bench, drop Cory Hill. Ball was excellent in 2017, really unsung in what he offers. Not sure he's match fit, probably a few weeks off it, but Wales will need all the power they can get and Ball is one of the few players who won't succumb to the 'dominant tackles' thing England have going at the moment.

[maestegmafia]

I can see a few curveballs to Wales' selection. 2 out of 3 of Nicky Smith, 1/2P and Jake Ball to start.

I don’t see the coaches suggest anything other than halfpenny is being wrapped in cotton wool. Smith or Evans close call happy with either. Would play Hill or Beard before Ball. Ball is a great player but I rate the other two higher as I see them as more intelligent players. It will be the top two inches that win this match.

Reposted/ripped off version of Sam Warburton's Sunday Times article where he goes for Nicky Smith and Jake Ball: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sam-warburton-names-wales-team-15843184

Promise I wasn't just copying what he said! Some pretty interesting calls all round there. Opting for Dylan Lewis over Samson as bench impact. Watched Lewis got taken apart by Saracens at the Arms Park a few weeks back. Definitely a good prospect but, for me, he's not ready for this sort of level quite yet. Also went for Gareth Davies and Biggar - interesting insight as Tomos and Anscombe are a club pairing (and his club as well). Not sure the other two have really ever clicked as a 9 and 10 - remember Biggar b0ll0cking Gareth Davies against Australia in 2015 when Wales were camped on their line. He went for a snipe or a dummy or something instead of giving the ball to Biggar when Wales had a two man advantage in the backline.

But I would still go for Ball. Maybe from the bench, drop Cory Hill. Ball was excellent in 2017, really unsung in what he offers. Not sure he's match fit, probably a few weeks off it, but Wales will need all the power they can get and Ball is one of the few players who won't succumb to the 'dominant tackles' thing England have going at the moment.

I read that. I think Gareth Davies and Biggar are picked because of their performance at Twickenham in the RWC. They won the game for us.

[munkian]

Why are people so happy to drop Hill at the moment ? He didn't put a foot wrong in the Autumn and our lineout has been poop without him.

[maestegmafia]

Why are people so happy to drop Hill at the moment ? He didn't put a foot wrong in the Autumn and our lineout has been poop without him.

I would be keen to play Cory Hill. Though I don’t think Beard has done anything to warrant non selection

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p071c5qt

[munkian]

Why are people so happy to drop Hill at the moment ? He didn't put a foot wrong in the Autumn and our lineout has been poop without him.

I would be keen to play Cory Hill. Though I don’t think Beard has done anything to warrant non selection

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p071c5qt

Its just odd he's gone from Captaining Wales and being part of the leadership group to bench player.

[maestegmafia]

Why are people so happy to drop Hill at the moment ? He didn't put a foot wrong in the Autumn and our lineout has been poop without him.

I would be keen to play Cory Hill. Though I don’t think Beard has done anything to warrant non selection

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p071c5qt

Its just odd he's gone from Captaining Wales and being part of the leadership group to bench player.

He is definitely a great player to have in your bench. We need to test out players like Beard and to be fair Beard has had a great run of games. Lovely steal at the maul against Italy.

Building strength and depth is key for the RWC.

[munkian]

Why are people so happy to drop Hill at the moment ? He didn't put a foot wrong in the Autumn and our lineout has been poop without him.

I would be keen to play Cory Hill. Though I don’t think Beard has done anything to warrant non selection

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p071c5qt

Its just odd he's gone from Captaining Wales and being part of the leadership group to bench player.

He is definitely a great player to have in your bench. We need to test out players like Beard and to be fair Beard has had a great run of games. Lovely steal at the maul against Italy.

Building strength and depth is key for the RWC.

All very true, I just worry about our set piece

[Guest]

Can't speak for anyone else but it's more Hill is a good solid player whereas Ball is genuinely powerful. He's a good 'out ball' in that, when it's slow, he can guarantee securing another phase on the gainline, allowing the rest of the team to reset etc. Also powerful in the tackle and at rucks. Sadly made of glass though. But Wales will need that power.

I got the impression that Beard was a better lineout operator, helped by his height, but if I'm wrong about that, then get Hill in there over him.

[Guest]

Its just odd he's gone from Captaining Wales and being part of the leadership group to bench player.

Not sure that's exactly fair. He was co-captaining Wales on what was effectively a B team tour. I wouldn't say he had nailed down the second lock position alongside AWJ. It's cycled through quite a few options since Charteris and Bradley Davies were competing against each other. Wouldn't say it's a case of him being dropped, more that - a bit like in the 6 shirt - there are a number of good, similar quality options who differ in terms of attributes. For England, Wales need Ball's power (kinky). If they can get it elsewhere, so be it, I personally think he's one of those players who's probably not appreciated unless you watch him closely/are there on the pitch.

[SecretFly]

What a bunch of names in one breath, - Beard, Hill and Ball.

[munkian]

Its just odd he's gone from Captaining Wales and being part of the leadership group to bench player.

Not sure that's exactly fair. He was co-captaining Wales on what was effectively a B team tour. I wouldn't say he had nailed down the second lock position alongside AWJ. It's cycled through quite a few options since Charteris and Bradley Davies were competing against each other. Wouldn't say it's a case of him being dropped, more that - a bit like in the 6 shirt - there are a number of good, similar quality options who differ in terms of attributes. For England, Wales need Ball's power (kinky). If they can get it elsewhere, so be it, I personally think he's one of those players who's probably not appreciated unless you watch him closely/are there on the pitch.

Didn't he start every game with AWJ last 6 Nations ?

[Gooseberry]

After the Six Nations and our warm up games, the World Cup games look a bit of a downer to be honest. We'll be putting 50+ points on the first two teams and the next couple aren't exactly scary.

TBF England put 30+ on Ireland, 40+ on France and Italy are ranked below both Tonga and the USA so we should be putting 50+ on them. If Scotlands injuries keep mounting they could face a 60+ humping like they did last time they came to Twickenham.
Famous last words/hubris etc but really this Wales game is the last one that should trouble England in the 6 nations.

Previously the warms ups have been a bit of a phoney war, with one team choosing to play something like a first choice side and the other a team with the fringe players. The Italy warm up is pointless of course.

The group is looking a lot less scary now then when the draw was made though. Argentina haven't really progressed much and France are every bit as much of an uncoachable lazy mess as ever. Im never a great fan of the group stages and the big blowout games, but its not much different to the widening gap between top and bottom in the 6 nations.

[Guest]

I think that was more luck than any planned judgement though. And he did well, no doubt, but it was all part of building depth as Gatland clearly didn't think Charteris or Bradley Davies were worth persisting with as first team players up to the RWC.

Ball was injured (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42237920) and that opened the door for Hill, and he took it. Beard has obviously broken through now at a similar time as Hill, and offers more of a traditional number 5 role than Hill - who, again, I think is a solid all-rounder. Don't think by any means he's nailed down the shirt - which has its positives for the team overall!

But I do think he's probably favourite to start. I personally would prefer Ball though, particularly as he was excellent two years ago.

[SecretFly]

Jees! By the time the English reach the WC final, they'll be ready to put over 100 on the ABs!

[lostinwales]

Jees!  By the time the English reach the WC final, they'll be ready to put over 100 on the ABs!

Well if we can beat Ireland I guess anything is possible

[Poorfour]

After the Six Nations and our warm up games, the World Cup games look a bit of a downer to be honest. We'll be putting 50+ points on the first two teams and the next couple aren't exactly scary.

I wonder how Eddie will approach selection for those first two games?

With just 3 days in-between them and then a long gap until Argentina I wonder if he will put out two sides mixing first choice and back-up giving everyone a game then select full strength for Argentina in game 3.

From memory, I think he's said strongest team for the first game. He did a talk at the Oxford Student Union and I think I remember him saying there.

I'd expect him to use the whole 31 across the pool games - including across the France and Argentina games so that everyone gets a bit of rest before the knock out stages. England are in a good position in terms of having 31 players (or more) that we'd be happy to see starting - but equally there's a punishing schedule to negotiate.

[robbo277]

Aye, that was a short advantage. Tidy kick into the corner though.

Yeah, John Terry ain’t my idea of a stand up guy either, but we all know how crying (albeit in a good way) isn’t necessarily the way to prepare. I recall Dayglo (I think) saying how he once over-invested himself in the anthem and didn’t perform as he might. Similar to how our NZ brethren (fans) say they sometimes roar themselves to a standstill with the Haka.

Having said all that, it’s really just a little corporate team-building to fill out the break week. You would hope that Terry got involved in a bit of tackle bag training with Lawes though, just for fun.

I'd be interested to know what Terry said to them. It obviously wasn't the pre-game changing room speech a la Al Pacino's life is a game of inches speech because it's far too early in the week for that.

For all his personal flaws Terry was a very successful captain at Chelsea despite being quite a limited player in terms of his lack of pace and ability with the ball at his feet. At England level he won a large number of caps, captained the side for a long time and even had a coach resign 4 months before a major tournament when the FA stripped him of the captaincy. I'm sure he'll have a lot of insight into top level sport.

If you need extra motivation for playing Wales in Cardiff to pretty much secure a grand slam then why are you even playing ?

I think you've misinterpreted my point. I don't think Terry is there to motivate the team; leadership is about more than just motivation. A captain's role is wider than the pre-game speech.

Farrell is captaining the team nicely, but leadership is definitely an area we could develop. Case in point, when Hartley went off against New Zealand and Retallick started to pick apart our lineout, no-one came up with a solution. That's when you need a line-out leader to keep a clear head, decide on the plan and communicate it to the team. Or if it's a matter of execution, to pinpoint that and tell the players what they need to do (e.g. throw has to be quicker, lift has to be sharper).

That whole leadership is missing slightly from the England team. That's where I think (hope) Terry was adding value.

[maestegmafia]

Gareth Anscombe has won the race for the No.10 jersey ahead of Dan Biggar.

WalesOnline understands it’s the 23-cap Cardiff Blue has had the nod and will be pulling the strings at the Principality Stadium this weekend.

It’s a selection that suggests Wales might look to be a little bit more creative on Saturday evening, with Anscombe perceived as the more mercurial of the two.

Well that answers one

[robbo277]

By and large it has. Too often the trend now appears to be half-heartedly go through another two phases where the opposition will flop on the ball and your supporting forwards don't think it's worth clearing them out. Or an up and under kick from the first phase the advantage is given that is far too deep and no-one chases.

There are much better ways of utilising advantage. The main one should be to inject pace in the movement, perhaps go through 3/4 phases to do this, then put a contestable, pre-planned kick in - doesn't always have to be a bomb.

Alternatively, we see the flipside of wasting advantage and that is playing the advantage when you need it. The Scarlets were 6 points down to Treviso at the weekend, 60 seconds to go, advantage on halfway. They end up going through another 4 phase, earning 10m, but it's all fairly slow ball. It was chance that they got the penalty brought back (think they knocked it on/there was a mistake somewhere) as there appeared no intention of stopping play and taking the penalty so they could go for the corner. I have to say that reactive game management is still seriously lacking at times in Union. Being aware of speed of ball, pitch position, advantages etc. are far better utilised in League. In any case, the Scarlets took the penalty, a brilliant kick to the 5m line, and then threw the lineout straight to the first Treviso jumper.

But it would be interesting to see how penalty advantages are utilised by teams. Wales are one of the worst under Gatland - they just slow up and take the points/kick to touch. England and NZ two of the best - they do up the intensity and try and make a linebreak. Wonder if that impression I have is supported by the stats.

The one that stood out for me was Ben Youngs against France after the Bamba (I think) high tackle on Manu, where we turned down advantage. A nothing incident in a nothing position, Youngs asks for the penalty immediately, gets his hands on the ball, taps and runs past the helpless French defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him. I think he made 10m and then 7 seconds later Farrell was dotting down for a try. At first I wasn't sure why he hadn't used the advantage, but it worked out well and if he had have played a few phases under advantage and then come back, the result would have been a lineout between the French 22 and 10m line.

Interesting. You don't really see the quick tap too often these days - a bit like you don't see a snipe from the 9, either. Not sure many refs would allow that either. Most call it so that, if you 'ask' for the advantage to finish early, and the penalty to be awarded straight away, you can't take the quick tap. Too much of an advantage to the attacking team, although I think this is more discretion than a law (might be wrong). But Nige is Nige and loves to watch the game flow. If there's any team you want to utilise the quick tap against, though, it's France and their defence.

It's another annoyance when referee's don't allow a quick tap in my mind, especially when they call it back for something persnickety like not through the mark, then make the mark about 2 inches from where the tap took place. Consideration to the defending team should go out the window, although half the time I think the referee is thinking more about his rest time (especially at grass roots level). If you don't want to give the attacking team an advantage, don't infringe.

I don't think the referee should stop the game for yellow cards. If he blows a penalty 5m out and wants to card a defender, the attacking team should have the option of a quick tap before they blow for time off. If they take the quick tap, the defending player gets a short reprieve and can then be binned at the next breakdown. But it should be the attacking team's option.

If you kill the ball 5m out then before you've even got to your feet their 9 has picked up the ball, tapped and scored, before the ref rounds on you and sends you to the bin, you'll think twice before you do it next time.

[maestegmafia]

By and large it has. Too often the trend now appears to be half-heartedly go through another two phases where the opposition will flop on the ball and your supporting forwards don't think it's worth clearing them out. Or an up and under kick from the first phase the advantage is given that is far too deep and no-one chases.

There are much better ways of utilising advantage. The main one should be to inject pace in the movement, perhaps go through 3/4 phases to do this, then put a contestable, pre-planned kick in - doesn't always have to be a bomb.

Alternatively, we see the flipside of wasting advantage and that is playing the advantage when you need it. The Scarlets were 6 points down to Treviso at the weekend, 60 seconds to go, advantage on halfway. They end up going through another 4 phase, earning 10m, but it's all fairly slow ball. It was chance that they got the penalty brought back (think they knocked it on/there was a mistake somewhere) as there appeared no intention of stopping play and taking the penalty so they could go for the corner. I have to say that reactive game management is still seriously lacking at times in Union. Being aware of speed of ball, pitch position, advantages etc. are far better utilised in League. In any case, the Scarlets took the penalty, a brilliant kick to the 5m line, and then threw the lineout straight to the first Treviso jumper.

But it would be interesting to see how penalty advantages are utilised by teams. Wales are one of the worst under Gatland - they just slow up and take the points/kick to touch. England and NZ two of the best - they do up the intensity and try and make a linebreak. Wonder if that impression I have is supported by the stats.

The one that stood out for me was Ben Youngs against France after the Bamba (I think) high tackle on Manu, where we turned down advantage. A nothing incident in a nothing position, Youngs asks for the penalty immediately, gets his hands on the ball, taps and runs past the helpless French defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him. I think he made 10m and then 7 seconds later Farrell was dotting down for a try. At first I wasn't sure why he hadn't used the advantage, but it worked out well and if he had have played a few phases under advantage and then come back, the result would have been a lineout between the French 22 and 10m line.

Interesting. You don't really see the quick tap too often these days - a bit like you don't see a snipe from the 9, either. Not sure many refs would allow that either. Most call it so that, if you 'ask' for the advantage to finish early, and the penalty to be awarded straight away, you can't take the quick tap. Too much of an advantage to the attacking team, although I think this is more discretion than a law (might be wrong). But Nige is Nige and loves to watch the game flow. If there's any team you want to utilise the quick tap against, though, it's France and their defence.

It's another annoyance when referee's don't allow a quick tap in my mind, especially when they call it back for something persnickety like not through the mark, then make the mark about 2 inches from where the tap took place. Consideration to the defending team should go out the window, although half the time I think the referee is thinking more about his rest time (especially at grass roots level). If you don't want to give the attacking team an advantage, don't infringe.

I don't think the referee should stop the game for yellow cards. If he blows a penalty 5m out and wants to card a defender, the attacking team should have the option of a quick tap before they blow for time off. If they take the quick tap, the defending player gets a short reprieve and can then be binned at the next breakdown. But it should be the attacking team's option.

If you kill the ball 5m out then before you've even got to your feet their 9 has picked up the ball, tapped and scored, before the ref rounds on you and sends you to the bin, you'll think twice before you do it next time.

To a degree I agree with you but some players made a career out of taking penalties quickly. Matt Dawson was a big exponent...!

[robbo277]

After the Six Nations and our warm up games, the World Cup games look a bit of a downer to be honest. We'll be putting 50+ points on the first two teams and the next couple aren't exactly scary.

I wonder how Eddie will approach selection for those first two games?

With just 3 days in-between them and then a long gap until Argentina I wonder if he will put out two sides mixing first choice and back-up giving everyone a game then select full strength for Argentina in game 3.

From memory, I think he's said strongest team for the first game. He did a talk at the Oxford Student Union and I think I remember him saying there.

This makes sense. Strongest team for Tonga, possibly leave the guys out on the pitch longer than you normally would. Change team for USA, again, minimise substitutions. Everyone gets 10 days off to prepare for the big 2 games, and then you're just into weekend games.

It's quite a nice schedule, probably as nice it could be now they have (rightfully) insisted that Tier 1 teams share the burden of midweek games.

[Poorfour]

It's not that nice a schedule, because every other Tier 1 nation has a game against a Tier 2 team as either their penultimate or final pool game, meaning that they have at least one "soft" week before going into the knockout rounds.

Unless either France or Argentina implode completely (not impossible) England have two Tier 1 games, followed by the knockout games, and I believe that no team has ever won 5 tier 1 games on successive weekends. It's a huge ask.

The only real way to do it is to have enough starter-quality players that you can rotate the squad. I think that's why some of the experienced players who are out of the squad this 6N will be back for the RWC squad - Eddie will need to make the campaign a squad effort, and will need some reliable players even if they aren't now in possession of the shirt.

[Scottrf]

France and Argentina are both ranked below Tier 2 Fiji though. It's not an especially useful label.

[Poorfour]

France and Argentina are both ranked below Tier 2 Fiji though. It's not an especially useful label.

True. So I did a bit of analysis of the pool makeup:

Pool	Count	Sum	Average	Max	Min	Range	StdDev
A	5	379.68	75.936	89.92	64.44	25.48	10.10167709
B	5	371.57	74.314	92.54	60.34	32.2	14.16953351
C	5	388.77	77.754	88.02	73.02	15	6.033173294
D	5	388.96	77.792	87.55	67.13	20.42	7.827363541

As of today:
New Zealand definitely have the easiest pool, with the lowest average ranking points and the widest spread.
It's debatable whether England or Wales have the hardest pool - England have the lowest spread and narrowest standard deviation; Wales have a slightly higher overall ranking point score, but have another team in the pool who are much closer to them in rankings.

[Scottrf]

For me, we have the easiest as we have the worst ‘second best team’. Doesn’t really matter if the other teams have 70 or 65 points really.

I’d much rather have our group than be drawn against Wales or South Africa.

[Guest]

France and Argentina will sort themselves out so they're competitive come to RWC. Not saying they'll beat England, but they will be a lot better. Argentina especially - with all their available players they have backs that rival the French, minus the poor conditioning and coaching. At least in theory. They were rubbish in the Summer, then pulled off two good wins in the RC, before bottling the final game against a poor Australian team having decimated them in the first 40. So not sure really what to make of them. With all their overseas players back for the RWC I think they are marginal favourites over France to qualify, although, again, France have comfortably the second best showing at World Cups of the European teams. In fact, they're more consistent than England, the 03 being the only thing that sees England leapfrog them. Writing them off, even as fans, is asking for an early exit.

[EnglishReign]

We've been awful in world cups since 2007. Whatever happens this 6Ns, I wouldn't be giving it the big 'un unless we get to a semi after some good rugby.

[EnglishReign]

But I do hope we get revenge on Scotland and some of their 'fans' last year with another 60+ smash. .

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