Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[Scottrf]

I'm more than happy for the English to think this will be a walk over.  Hopefully the players too.  Every time we play England we're written off, yet the win ratio is not far off 50%.  So wales might....might...... have a really small tincy wincy outside chance of a win.  Like 0.000000000001% chance.  But we've taken that 0.000000000001% in the past and won almost every other game.  So it can be done.  If a miracle happens

We know this is not a big game for England.  It never is.  But is is for Wales and always will be.  It doesn't have to work both ways.  We get that.  That's part of what fuels us.  We know we're just an insignificant speck lumped onto the side of England (geographically).  We know we're the poor relations.  Literally.  We know it's the upper classes vs the working classes.  The overlords vs the underlings.  And that's why it means nothing to you.  But it means the world to us!  It's like the game between the guards and the prisoners, or the mine owners vs the miners.  A chance to strike back against those who generally look down their noses at us.  THAT is why it is often closer than it should be on paper.  It gives the Welsh an extra 10-20% somehow.  Physically.  Psychologically.  The Welsh players will be all out for this one.  Even if the English are not

Haha. I've been a bit overconfident, I know. I just think you have to suspend disbelief a lot at the moment to see a Welsh win.

But, the real gap is closer than it's looked so far, and I expect Wales to lift the performance a lot. They are a very good side.

[Guest]

If we can't go back to November 2018, we definitely can't go back to September 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSW1kUtuVQk

One of those isn't playing, one is in Ireland and one is in a different sport. I'd be nervous if that's what I was clinging to.

'Clinging to'? It's a joke...

I've just been told Wales are Argentina's equals despite pumping them with their B team on their own turf back in the Summer...twice! And this is what you take issue with!?

Wales are where they are in the rankings, and have the winning streak they do, for a reason. They're not the finished article, nor are they favourites for this game, but once again, England fans are overvaluing their team. This is why you're called arrogant because when you're good, you think the only way is up/this is your rightful place.

[Duty281]

If England play as they do against Ireland, Wales have nil chance.

After wondering where you pulled the '7/10' metric as being decisive to deciding England's victory, it's now clear to see that numbers aren't really your strong point.

Try not to get stuck under the Severn Bridge if you are coming to see the game, Duty!

Oh numbers definitely are my strong point, it's why I'm able to beat bookmakers consistently.

Even more consistently than England beat Wales.

[Scottrf]

'Clinging to'? It's a joke...

I've just been told Wales are Argentina's equals despite pumping them with their B team on their own turf back in the Summer...twice! And this is what you take issue with!?

Wales are where they are in the rankings, and have the winning streak they do, for a reason. They're not the finished article, nor are they favourites for this game, but once again, England fans are overvaluing their team. This is why you're called arrogant because when you're good, you think the only way is up/this is your rightful place.

He wasn't responding to me, obviously Wales are much better than Argentina. I would hardly say I was taking issue, more responding to the jibe.

[Duty281]

If we can't go back to November 2018, we definitely can't go back to September 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSW1kUtuVQk

One of those isn't playing, one is in Ireland and one is in a different sport. I'd be nervous if that's what I was clinging to.

'Clinging to'? It's a joke...

I've just been told Wales are Argentina's equals despite pumping them with their B team on their own turf back in the Summer...twice! And this is what you take issue with!?

Wales are where they are in the rankings, and have the winning streak they do, for a reason. They're not the finished article, nor are they favourites for this game, but once again, England fans are overvaluing their team. This is why you're called arrogant because when you're good, you think the only way is up/this is your rightful place.

I was using an analogy, I don't actually think Argentina are Wales' equals.

[Ricardo74]

I'm more than happy for the English to think this will be a walk over.  Hopefully the players too.  Every time we play England we're written off, yet the win ratio is not far off 50%.  So wales might....might...... have a really small tincy wincy outside chance of a win.  Like 0.000000000001% chance.  But we've taken that 0.000000000001% in the past and won almost every other game.  So it can be done.  If a miracle happens

We know this is not a big game for England.  It never is.  But is is for Wales and always will be.  It doesn't have to work both ways.  We get that.  That's part of what fuels us.  We know we're just an insignificant speck lumped onto the side of England (geographically).  We know we're the poor relations.  Literally.  We know it's the upper classes vs the working classes.  The overlords vs the underlings.  And that's why it means nothing to you.  But it means the world to us!  It's like the game between the guards and the prisoners, or the mine owners vs the miners.  A chance to strike back against those who generally look down their noses at us.  THAT is why it is often closer than it should be on paper.  It gives the Welsh an extra 10-20% somehow.  Physically.  Psychologically.  The Welsh players will be all out for this one.  Even if the English are not

As an Englishman of a certain age, I have had to endure many years of hearing, from Welshmen, women and children, about how they are the greatest, they have had the best team, how Gareth Edwards, Phil Bennett, Barry John, JPR et al were without question the best rugby players ever to walk the planet - if indeed their deified feet touched it.

At the time England were not at their best, and it was hard, hard listening. Even when the pendulum swung, and we became the dominant team through the 90's and early 00's, it was always "well, you're good, but not as good as...". On top of that, you lot have a habit of winning at the right time. You know what I mean!

This game is the one that really gets me going. Every time. Every year. Massive, and I love it. I'm up for it.

[Guest]

Wales: Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Gareth Anscombe, Gareth Davies; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill, Alun Wyn Jones (C), Josh Navidi, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Elliot Dee, Nicky Smith, Dillon Lewis, Adam Beard, Aaron Wainwright, Aled Davies, Dan Biggar, Owen Watkin.

[RiscaGame]

Delme was wrong. Good to see

[Guest]

Slightly surprised by the choice at 9 but he's gone for experience - can't say it's a bad decision. Disappointed not to see Ball in there, huge ask for Beard to come off the bench and deal with the English heavyweights, but Ball simply not match fit so, again, no real issue. No 1/2P - probably for the best for him as both a player and a person.

Dillon Lewis over Samson tells you how Wales are looking to play the game in the final quarter.

The non-selection of Tomos suggests that, again, Gatland is prioritising the World Cup. I really do think it's up to Rhys Webb to force a move home for him to get into the squad. He's giving Aled gametime and that, to me, suggests he sees him as a key squad player (especially if 1 of the 9s is injured).

Big, big test for the likes of Wainwright and Dee as well. Been impressed with Dee in the loose, and his application is spot on. Just a jump up in intensity and physicality for them.

[rodders]

Interesting that Wales have just announced their team, doesn't Gat's usually do it on the Wednesday to get the psychological edge?

[RiscaGame]

I only glanced the team initially and assumed Aled Davies was chosen instead of Gareth Davies on the bench, thanks to Delme's team.

[RiscaGame]

I see Williams is actually injured, so wonder if it's a late change.

"Three players were unavailable for selection due to injury; Samson Lee, Leon Brown, Tomos Williams"

[munkian]

If England play as they do against Ireland, Wales have nil chance.

After wondering where you pulled the '7/10' metric as being decisive to deciding England's victory, it's now clear to see that numbers aren't really your strong point.

Try not to get stuck under the Severn Bridge if you are coming to see the game, Duty!

Oh numbers definitely are my strong point, it's why I'm able to beat bookmakers consistently.

Even more consistently than England beat Wales.

So like 50/50* then ?

*62 to 57 but I thought I'd make it easier for you.

[Guest]

Aled Davies on the bench is a worry.  He's got hands like a sheriff's badge - points in all directions!  And he's slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow at the rucks.  Got found out a lot v Italy.  Couldn't we have stuck Tomos Williams on the bench?  He was many people's preferred starting 10 for this one, yet he hasn't even made the squad???  Injured?

[maestegmafia]

Three players were unavailable for selection due to injury; Samson Lee, Leon Brown, Tomos Williams.

[majesticimperialman]

I'm more than happy for the English to think this will be a walk over.  Hopefully the players too.  Every time we play England we're written off, yet the win ratio is not far off 50%.  So wales might....might...... have a really small tincy wincy outside chance of a win.  Like 0.000000000001% chance.  But we've taken that 0.000000000001% in the past and won almost every other game.  So it can be done.  If a miracle happens

We know this is not a big game for England.  It never is.  But is is for Wales and always will be.  It doesn't have to work both ways.  We get that.  That's part of what fuels us.  We know we're just an insignificant speck lumped onto the side of England (geographically).  We know we're the poor relations.  Literally.  We know it's the upper classes vs the working classes.  The overlords vs the underlings.  And that's why it means nothing to you.  But it means the world to us!  It's like the game between the guards and the prisoners, or the mine owners vs the miners.  A chance to strike back against those who generally look down their noses at us.  THAT is why it is often closer than it should be on paper.  It gives the Welsh an extra 10-20% somehow.  Physically.  Psychologically.  The Welsh players will be all out for this one.  Even if the English are not

This game means nothing too England.....oh it does it does. England will not take Wales likely and will not take this game as a given. They ( England) will  be Training hard to combat the Welsh factor. England have got off too a great start in this years tournament, scoring maximum points ( bonus points) along the way.

Wales on the other hand have not played any great rugby but have won both of their opening and got( NO, bonus points.) along the way.

Wales will play a lot better at home than they have played so far. Infact if you are honest they will have too play a lot better than they  have.

England just have to continue playing the way they played against Ireland and the game is in the bag.

But please do not say that this game means nothing too the English. Because it does.

It means as much to England as it does too Wales.

This is the time when you say may the best team win. and i say to you, we will.

[Guest]

Disappointing to read about the injuries. GD to stay on for 75 unless he's having a shocker I imagine. Hope he has a good game. Has more threat to Youngs when at his best - in fact, one of the most potent broken field attackers in the competition - but does have his weaknesses.

Aled has a good pass and did actually start looking like becoming a really good 9 when the Scarlets were peaking 18 months ago. He's just no a particularly 'natural' looking rugby player. Chalk and cheese between the two 9s in what they offer.

[Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfwWoiiQrBA

[munkian]

Aled f'ing Davies though

[maestegmafia]

Disappointing to read about the injuries. GD to stay on for 75 unless he's having a shocker I imagine. Hope he has a good game. Has more threat to Youngs when at his best - in fact, one of the most potent broken field attackers in the competition - but does have his weaknesses.

Aled has a good pass and did actually start looking like becoming a really good 9 when the Scarlets were peaking 18 months ago. He's just no a particularly 'natural' looking rugby player. Chalk and cheese between the two 9s in what they offer.

Very similar look to the team that played against SA in the autumn too. I worried a bit about Wales halfbacks kicking game in that test. Like with France Biggar came on to finish off at ten.

[maestegmafia]

Aled f'ing Davies though

I think Keiron Hardie will be pushing for a spot by the RWC.

[Guest]

Aled f'ing Davies though

but also

[munkian]

Can we have a whip round to get Webb back ?

[RiscaGame]

I'll pledge £10

[munkian]

I'll pledge £10

The Dragons gladly accept your kind donation

[maestegmafia]

The team is what it is and we have risen to the occasion before when missing a number of players like Webb before. I hope that Gatland and his team have prepared the squad well the last two weeks for this match.

The game has significance well betond the Six Nations for the whole squad.

[RiscaGame]

I'll pledge £10

The Dragons gladly accept your kind donation

If it's for us, I'll make it £100

[Ricardo74]

Had to redo the first iteration of this, because I'm a muppet and got the wrong Eng team !

Comparing the 2018 Eng team (v Wales this time!) starting XV:

15 Mike Brown - nope
14 Anthony Watson - nope
13 Jonathan Joseph - nope
12 Owen Farrell - different position
11 Jonny May - bingo!
10 George Ford - nope
9 Danny Care - nope
8 Sam Simmonds - nope '
7 Chris Robshaw - nope
6 Courtney Lawes - different position
5 Maro Itoje - nope
4 Joe Launchbury - nope
3 Dan Cole - nope
2 Dylan Hartley (c) - nope
1 Mako Vunipola - nope

Just Johnny May in the same position, and two positional changes.

Of course Ford & Launch are on the bench, and injuries have played a part - Mako & Maro would almost certainly be starting, and Watson & Joseph would be in the conversation.

However, to replace that many starters from a year ago, and having gelled so well in the Autumn and recently (leading many to laud this as the best Eng team for ages) is quite a testament to the players and coaches.

[No 7&1/2]

Give it a rest Sgt. Even I'd be keeping the same pack as much as we can yo try and keep momentum. Wilson is a placeholder. May see the world cup but won't see much of him after.

[Guest]

That is an interesting comparison. The players who have come in have really performed well.

In almost every position it's very much an either/or. George over Hartley? Not right now, I think Hartley adds stability/solidity with George from the bench. Sinkler over Cole? Let's see how the scrum goes but the former is brilliant in the loose, so yes. Robshaw over Wilson? Maybe the latter's enthusiasm is making a difference but not much between the two. Nowell or Watson? Again, slightly different players, but very close/perhaps evens. Daly has more to his game than Brown but a slip up in defence/under the high ball and that might be a regret.

There is only one that stands out. The key player, quite clearly, is Tuilagi. Not sure if most people realise how good he is, and also how - even when not making headlines - his attributes are key in allowing England to play the way they do with ball in hand. It's more important to keep him fit than Billy V in my opinion if England are to be successful in Japan.

You don't get Slade playing the way he is without Tuilagi's forward momentum.

EDIT: Ricardo's team has disappeared!

[munkian]

Pitty Manu is off to France

[Guest]

No way, just seen that! Presumably still eligible for the RWC?

[No 7&1/2]

That said I think this match squad is the strongest we've put out this 6 nations despite Itoje and Vunipola being out. 2 weeks to work on how to pick Wales apart. Hopefully we turn up for the 3rd match in a row if we do could be a pretty comfortable afternoon.

[Guest]

£830,000 a year. My God...

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/manu-tuilagi-has-signed-for-racing-92

[munkian]

£830,000 a year. My God...

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/manu-tuilagi-has-signed-for-racing-92

Is that including sick days ?

[Ricardo74]

EDIT: Ricardo's team has disappeared!

Apologies Miaow et al. I analyzed the team we put out versus Italy, not the one we put out versus Wales. If anything, there's more changes now.

[Guest]

No worries Ricardo.

I think what it shows that, for years now (probably 10), England have had very good strength in depth. As in lots of players in and around a similar standard all of whom can do a job.

Where they've got it wrong in the past is how to use that. Picking the wrong 'key' players who weren't dropped/rotated. Going a bit further back, simply picking the form 3/4s instead of trusting a good player a sticking with them even if they weren't as in form as another player.

But also, it's about how those players combine. You need key 'points of difference' in players like Sinckler and May who can make solid Test players look ordinary. Then, the likes of Wilson, Nowell etc. start looking better as a consequence.

The danger for England is if/when things don't go their way. I still think they have a leadership issue. The likes of Youngs, the locks etc. all look great when you're winning. When under a bit of pressure, they can start to look very ordinary. That will be the test for Wales, to put those players under pressure as often as possible. I don't think Farrell is a Johnson-esque captain capable of quietly leading a team to a WC. More of a lieutenant. But I might be wrong.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

With the RWC starting 20/09/19 and the Gallagher Premiership a day later, does that mean MT is allowed to play in the RWC when he is no longer signed up to an English team? Does he come under the "special" tag?


Personally, if he has signed up for a French club before the start of the RWC and will not be available to play for an English club next year, I would ditch him now, as good as he is. Did he discuss the move with the RFU prior to signing to make sure he was eligible?

Not a lot of loyalty to Tigers who have paid him for the last few years without getting much in the way of games out of him.

[Scottrf]

I reckon he wouldn’t sign if it was to make him ineligible for the RWC. A lot of the stance is around player availability and workload and clearly that’s not a problem in this circumstance.

[Ricardo74]

No worries Ricardo.

I think what it shows that, for years now (probably 10), England have had very good strength in depth. As in lots of players in and around a similar standard all of whom can do a job.

Where they've got it wrong in the past is how to use that. Picking the wrong 'key' players who weren't dropped/rotated. Going a bit further back, simply picking the form 3/4s instead of trusting a good player a sticking with them even if they weren't as in form as another player.

But also, it's about how those player2s combine. You need key 'points of difference' in players like Sinckler and May who can make solid Test players look ordinary. Then, the likes of Wilson, Nowell etc. start looking better as a consequence.

The danger for England is if/when things don't go their way. I still think they have a leadership issue. The likes of Youngs, the locks etc. all look great when you're winning. When under a bit of pressure, they can start to look very ordinary. That will be the test for Wales, to put those players under pressure as often as possible. I don't think Farrell is a Johnson-esque captain capable of quietly leading a team to a WC. More of a lieutenant. But I might be wrong.

I'm inclined to disagree on the captaincy issue. I think Farrell is growing into it, and displaying more maturity on a game-by-game basis. I agree with you that he's not a "quiet leader" like, perhaps, Johnson was, but I'd contend that he's very much his own man, and his lead from the front attitude and unquestionable, absolute desire to win drag the team along with him.

Yes, sometimes that spills over into "questionable" tackles per the Autumn series, but questions aside - they were effective. I think he's forming a team in his own image, and is irreplaceable in the England side for that reason - not a good thing if we lose him to injury, though, although we have other leaders in and around the side.

Is he a bit marmite? I'd hate to see him on the opposition's team sheet (as I do when he lines up for Sarries against Wasps); do the other nations fear what he brings to the England side?

[Ricardo74]

I reckon he wouldn’t sign if it was to make him ineligible for the RWC. A lot of the stance is around player availability and workload and clearly that’s not a problem in this circumstance.

Where does he stand post-RWC? Available for selection, but won't be released for team gatherings and matches outside the official window?

[lostinwales]

With the RWC starting 20/09/19 and the Gallagher Premiership a day later, does that mean MT is allowed to play in the RWC when he is no longer signed up to an English team? Does he come under the "special" tag?


Personally, if he has signed up for a French club before the start of the RWC and will not be available to play for an English club next year, I would ditch him now, as good as he is. Did he discuss the move with the RFU prior to signing to make sure he was eligible?

Not a lot of loyalty to Tigers who have paid him for the last few years without getting much in the way of games out of him.

Every man has his price...

[Scottrf]

I reckon he wouldn’t sign if it was to make him ineligible for the RWC. A lot of the stance is around player availability and workload and clearly that’s not a problem in this circumstance.

Where does he stand post-RWC? Available for selection, but won't be released for team gatherings and matches outside the official window?

I think it's pretty clear on an ongoing basis: he wouldn't be playing for England.

[lostinwales]

...

The danger for England is if/when things don't go their way. I still think they have a leadership issue. The likes of Youngs, the locks etc. all look great when you're winning. When under a bit of pressure, they can start to look very ordinary. That will be the test for Wales, to put those players under pressure as often as possible. I don't think Farrell is a Johnson-esque captain capable of quietly leading a team to a WC. More of a lieutenant. But I might be wrong.

Same in any game. If you control the tempo of the match and disrupt the opposition in the right way you can make any team look ordinary.

Prior to the last few games I don't think Farrell was anybody's idea of an ideal captain, but so far he's done well.

[Guest]

I agree he's growing into the captaincy. He's actually surprised me how he's basically curtailed his inclination to 'lose it'. I just think that, underneath it all, he's not really in the same league as a Warburton or someone like Guirado. He's a leader, no doubt, but I'm not sure he's the leader, if you know what I mean? I'm not sure it's wise giving him that role when he's already in a key leadership position on the field, and obviously has the personality to lead the rest of the team with his persona and drive. It might seem counter intuitive but I think leadership can be a nuanced thing and, actually, a bit of temper to the fire Hartley and/or Farrell bring would be perfect for England. Again, though, he does seem to have been cool so far, probably an age and maturity thing.

[Guest]

I agree with that lost. But I suppose the issue is England's players tend to look unstoppable when they physically have the upper hand. When they don't, if the game doesn't go their way, in the past I'm not sure they've been able to react and adapt to that. Scotland game last year being key - for all their bulk and success they looked headless and out of their depth. For some reason, Launchbury and Kruis are the epitome of this for me. Some others don't suffer such a dramatic drop-off, for a number of reasons really.

Recently, what I think Ireland, and obviously NZ for years, have shown is an ability to adapt on the fly. To not have that kind of 'drop off' be so severe from dominance to 'average'. Perhaps the only time that's happened to Ireland recently was the England game itself.

[Rugby Fan]

... Every time we play England we're written off, yet the win ratio is not far off 50%....

I was wondering about that. I don't think Wales are always written off. For instance, at the start of the 2016 Six Nations, all the Guardian rugby journalists predicted a win for Wales. However, I think England supporters began to see Wales the same way Australians saw England. Until the recent fall off in form, a lot of Wallaby supporters always imagined they had the beating of England, even though we had a good record against them (it's now 25-24 to Australia, with one draw, which is easily the best record any northern teams has against one of the big 3 southern sides).

The England Wales record is 62-57 with 12 draws, which surprises me a little, since I grew up watching Welsh sides run rings around England. It took me a long time to think we might ever be favourites for a game in Cardiff since our record was so poor there. When we finally won in 1991, it was the first time we'd done so since 1963. That's about the time that England began thinking not just that we might beat Wales, but that we ought to beat them.

In the professional era (which is something of an arbitrary line to draw), England are ahead 20-8, so it's never been insane for an England supporter to imagine his team can beat Wales, but it's close enough for a Welsh supporter to also feel confident of his team. In Cardiff, the record is 7-5 to England, so it's a notably tougher place for us to get a win, and somewhere I doubt any pundits write off the chances of a win for Wales, even if their form is poor in the lead-up.

This weekend, I don't think Wales are in poor form. They haven't perhaps clicked in the last two games but they are on a winning steak, and Cardiff isn't a venue where the team wilts. In 2011, Wales hadn't won a game in eight Tests, but England only won that Cardiff match by seven points.

Consequently, if England do manage a win on Saturday, then it will probably count as one of the best we've managed in the professional era.

[Scottrf]

I agree he's growing into the captaincy. He's actually surprised me how he's basically curtailed his inclination to 'lose it'. I just think that, underneath it all, he's not really in the same league as a Warburton or someone like Guirado. He's a leader, no doubt, but I'm not sure he's the leader, if you know what I mean? I'm not sure it's wise giving him that role when he's already in a key leadership position on the field, and obviously has the personality to lead the rest of the team with his persona and drive. It might seem counter intuitive but I think leadership can be a nuanced thing and, actually, a bit of temper to the fire Hartley and/or Farrell bring would be perfect for England. Again, though, he does seem to have been cool so far, probably an age and maturity thing.

Where is Guirado's leadership? France are playing like headless chickens, collapsing in the second half, looking completely demotivated and with a broken dressing room.

[LordDowlais]

... Every time we play England we're written off, yet the win ratio is not far off 50%....

I was wondering about that. I don't think Wales are always written off. For instance, at the start of the 2016 Six Nations, all the Guardian rugby journalists predicted a win for Wales. However, I think England supporters began to see Wales the same way Australians saw England. Until the recent fall off in form, a lot of Wallaby supporters always imagined they had the beating of England, even though we had a good record against them (it's now 25-24 to Australia, with one draw, which is easily the best record any northern teams has against one of the big 3 southern sides).

The England Wales record is 62-57 with 12 draws, which surprises me a little, since I grew up watching Welsh sides run rings around England. It took me a long time to think we might ever be favourites for a game in Cardiff since our record was so poor there. When we finally won in 1991, it was the first time we'd done so since 1963. That's about the time that England began thinking not just that we might beat Wales, but that we ought to beat them.

In the professional era (which is something of an arbitrary line to draw), England are ahead 20-8, so it's never been insane for an England supporter to imagine his team can beat Wales, but it's close enough for a Welsh supporter to also feel confident of his team. In Cardiff, the record is 7-5 to England, so it's a notably tougher place for us to get a win, and somewhere I doubt any pundits write off the chances of a win for Wales, even if their form is poor in the lead-up.

This weekend, I don't think Wales are in poor form. They haven't perhaps clicked in the last two games but they are on a winning steak, and Cardiff isn't a venue where the team wilts. In 2011, Wales hadn't won a game in eight Tests, but England only won that Cardiff match by seven points.

Consequently, if England do manage a win on Saturday, then it will probably count as one of the best we've managed in the professional era.

It is also somewhat skewed as Wales lost two generations of players to rugby league, which hazards the question, why were the Welsh players mostly targeted for rugby league, and not any other nation ?

[Collapse2005]

If we can't go back to November 2018, we definitely can't go back to September 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSW1kUtuVQk

One of those isn't playing, one is in Ireland and one is in a different sport. I'd be nervous if that's what I was clinging to.

'Clinging to'? It's a joke...

I've just been told Wales are Argentina's equals despite pumping them with their B team on their own turf back in the Summer...twice! And this is what you take issue with!?

Wales are where they are in the rankings, and have the winning streak they do, for a reason. They're not the finished article, nor are they favourites for this game, but once again, England fans are overvaluing their team. This is why you're called arrogant because when you're good, you think the only way is up/this is your rightful place.

Wales run of undefeated games looks really good on paper but is it really that good? It doesn't include wins over any of the three sides ranked above them currently. If you break down the list of wins it isn't really that impressive:

Wales won 26 15 +11 2 2 4 0  v Italy Rome 9 Feb 2019
Wales won 24 19 +5 3 3 1 0  v France Stade de France 1 Feb 2019
Wales won 20 11 +9 2 2 2 0  v South Africa Millennium Stadium 24 Nov 2018
Wales won 74 24 +50 10 8 2 0  v Tonga Millennium Stadium 17 Nov 2018
Wales won 9 6 +3 0 0 3 0  v Australia Millennium Stadium 10 Nov 2018
Wales won 21 10 +11 2 1 3 0  v Scotland Millennium Stadium 3 Nov 2018
Wales won 30 12 +18 2 1 6 0  v Argentina Santa Fe 16 Jun 2018
Wales won 23 10 +13 2 2 3 0  v Argentina San Juan 9 Jun 2018
Wales won 22 20 +2 3 2 1 0  v South Africa Washington DC 2 Jun 2018
Wales won 14 13 +1 1 0 3 0  v France Millennium Stadium 17 Mar 2018  
Wales won 38 14 +24 5 5 1 0  v Italy Millennium Stadium 11 Mar 2018  

Probably the most impressive wins on that list are v Argentina in Argentina and the win v SA in Wales. However, both England and Ireland both whitewashed Argentina in their last tours in Argentina and SA lost half of all their games last year.

Wins v Scotland, France, Italy and Tonga aren't that impressive anymore and if you look at the list of fixtures only the win v Scotland in the Millennium stadium stands out as a really impressive Wales performance.

The only away wins came against France, Italy and Argentina with a win in a neutral venue v a B South Africa side that imploded in the last minute. Winning away in France was good but in a very unconvincing performance.

If you beat England on the weekend then you can start to brag.

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