6N 2019: France v Scotland

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 23rd Feb 2019
Stade de France
KO 14:15

France


Scotland


After two opening losses for France and a home loss for Scotland, both teams are looking to get their tournament back on track. Expect a response or implosion from France at home but also expect the same from Scotland.

This could be interesting.

NeilyBroon wrote:

EST wrote:BR now becomes hugely problematic, we just don't have anybody left to fill in at 6 who I would say is international quality.

I would personally leave Ritchie at 7 (who has had a real coming of age tournament) with Strauss staying at 8, who has  cemented that position going forward.  At six, there is a toss up between Graham, Harley and Ashe.  I think we can all agree that Bob shouldn't really ever be considered for the BR at this level anymore - he is way off the pace.  Which leaves a toss up between Ashe and Graham - I think I would go for Ashe, purely because Graham could cover the whole BR from the bench.  Toonie wildcard could be Skinner coming back from injury, Hardie playing at 6 or Bradbury being chucked straight back into the fold.  

The other position of concern is 13, again we don't have any particularly attractive options left - what are we, down to 4 choice after Jones, Bennett and Scott?
 

McDowall can play at outside centre and cover the backrow

I think he should captain the side from the bench

Hogg out For the whole Tournament I just saw

WhoCares - how have you been and what is your honest appraisal of this French side?

EST wrote:BR now becomes hugely problematic, we just don't have anybody left to fill in at 6 who I would say is international quality.

I would personally leave Ritchie at 7 (who has had a real coming of age tournament) with Strauss staying at 8, who has  cemented that position going forward.  At six, there is a toss up between Graham, Harley and Ashe.  I think we can all agree that Bob shouldn't really ever be considered for the BR at this level anymore - he is way off the pace.  Which leaves a toss up between Ashe and Graham - I think I would go for Ashe, purely because Graham could cover the whole BR from the bench.  Toonie wildcard could be Skinner coming back from injury, Hardie playing at 6 or Bradbury being chucked straight back into the fold.  

The other position of concern is 13, again we don't have any particularly attractive options left - what are we, down to 4 choice after Jones, Bennett and Scott?  I'm not sure it matters if we go for either Grigg or Harris, both have their issues at this level - if forced, I would probably go Grigg due to his familiarity with Johnson

Ah ha. Another one of us getting caught out in versitle subs land! I do it often too!

The lgic is flawed to put a player on the bench as he covers more positions that someone else who would start.

In this case you'd have:

Ashe, Ritchie and Strauss starting with Graham on the bench as he covers the whole backrow

What would also happen is you could have

Graham, Ritchie and Strauss starting with Ashe on the bench. If Graham gets injured, Ashe comes on at 6. If Ritchie gets injured, Ashe comes on at 6 with Graham moving over to 7.

It's differnet if the specialist is better in the positions so the jack of al trades benches, but is Ashe really better than Graham at 6? Espeiclaly when yo uconsider that Graham has at least bene fully involved in all training sessions!

EST wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

EST wrote:BR now becomes hugely problematic, we just don't have anybody left to fill in at 6 who I would say is international quality.

I would personally leave Ritchie at 7 (who has had a real coming of age tournament) with Strauss staying at 8, who has  cemented that position going forward.  At six, there is a toss up between Graham, Harley and Ashe.  I think we can all agree that Bob shouldn't really ever be considered for the BR at this level anymore - he is way off the pace.  Which leaves a toss up between Ashe and Graham - I think I would go for Ashe, purely because Graham could cover the whole BR from the bench.  Toonie wildcard could be Skinner coming back from injury, Hardie playing at 6 or Bradbury being chucked straight back into the fold.  

The other position of concern is 13, again we don't have any particularly attractive options left - what are we, down to 4 choice after Jones, Bennett and Scott?
 

McDowall can play at outside centre and cover the backrow

I think he should captain the side from the bench

Well you've got to give the French a fighting chance. Absolutely no refereeing decisions would go their way with Stafford in his ear.

Toonie sounds a lot more optimistic about Hoggy than we were lead to believe in his BBC interview.

He is very hopeful that he will play a further part in the 6N.

He is seeing the specialist today, so I guess we will know soon.

BigGee wrote:Toonie sounds a lot more optimistic about Hoggy than we were lead to believe in his BBC interview.

He is very hopeful that he will play a further part in the 6N.

He is seeing the specialist today, so I guess we will know soon.

Interesting that he mentions Byron McGuigan. Very bizarre as the last times he's been involved Scotland have been guff.

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:Toonie sounds a lot more optimistic about Hoggy than we were lead to believe in his BBC interview.

He is very hopeful that he will play a further part in the 6N.

He is seeing the specialist today, so I guess we will know soon.

Interesting that he mentions Byron McGuigan. Very bizarre as the last times he's been involved Scotland have been guff.

Well he is probably the next cab off the rank now that Lee Jones is injured as well. Still behind Darcy Graham, who I think Toonie wants to get involved, but we do need someone else to cover.

I seem to remember him having a decent game v Australia last year and he always looks half decent when he turns out for Sale.

I've missed a lot of chat today so may have already been covered, but looks like Hardie is back fit.

6 Ritchie
7 Hardie
8 Strauss

20 - Graham

Leaves us a little light on carrying but hopefully the plan will be to run France ragged.

RDW wrote:I've missed a lot of chat today so may have already been covered, but looks like Hardie is back fit.

6 Ritchie
7 Hardie
8 Strauss

20 - Graham

Leaves us a little light on carrying but hopefully the plan will be to run France ragged.

Monster french pack. No point running into them over and over again. Round em is the way to go.

This must be the game for Finn to shine. He’s been playing well and his antics against an unstructured French team should be right up his street

This will be a big game for both teams. France was awful against England they can play better that they did that day.

Scotland will need to be ready for a French team that will want to make amends for the way they played against Both Wales and England.

Looking forward to this game.

Anyone else furious about the Hogg situation?  Poite you utter tinkiwinki.

At least we've got a good replacement in Kinghorn and it's not a bad thing that he's getting proper game-time at full-back.

With Wilson going down, who are the runners and riders for getting a crack against French alongside Strauss and Ritchie:

Harley - never quite added enough to his game but I think he's solid enough
Graham - wasn't impressed with his cameo
Ashe - new deal this week and has shown flashes but needs to be at 8 for Weegies
Crosbie - not played a lot this season and a big ask to go against French
Bradbury - said to be returning for Edinburgh but 4 months is a long time

Watson - likely to be injured?
Hardie - injured?
Fagerson - injured?
Thomson - injured?
Denton - injured?

https://theoffsideline.com/stuart-hogg-to-miss-france/

A bit more depth from Toonie about the injury situation.

Huw Jones and Hoggy pretty much definite to miss the France game. Hardie only just back running, so probably unlikely unless he gets through a game with the Falcons this weekend.

Does not seem inclined to rush Ritchie Gray back either, which is probably wise.

Apparently Hogg isn’t officially out, yet

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/well-its-news-to-me-that-hes-out-for-the-six-nations-townsend-reacts-to-hogg-reports

NeilyBroon wrote:

EST wrote:BR now becomes hugely problematic, we just don't have anybody left to fill in at 6 who I would say is international quality.

I would personally leave Ritchie at 7 (who has had a real coming of age tournament) with Strauss staying at 8, who has  cemented that position going forward.  At six, there is a toss up between Graham, Harley and Ashe.  I think we can all agree that Bob shouldn't really ever be considered for the BR at this level anymore - he is way off the pace.  Which leaves a toss up between Ashe and Graham - I think I would go for Ashe, purely because Graham could cover the whole BR from the bench.  Toonie wildcard could be Skinner coming back from injury, Hardie playing at 6 or Bradbury being chucked straight back into the fold.  

The other position of concern is 13, again we don't have any particularly attractive options left - what are we, down to 4 choice after Jones, Bennett and Scott?
 

McDowall can play at outside centre and cover the backrow

He can also coach and referee.

BigGee wrote:https://theoffsideline.com/stuart-hogg-to-miss-france/

A bit more depth from Toonie about the injury situation.

Huw Jones and Hoggy pretty much definite to miss the France game. Hardie only just back running, so probably unlikely unless he gets through a game with the Falcons this weekend.

Does not seem inclined to rush Ritchie Gray back either, which is probably wise.

Agreed on Ritchie Gray. Gilchrist, Jonny G and Toolis are plenty good enough anyway, so best think long term.

Losing Hogg is the hammer blow. I know that Kinghorn has potential, but he has so much to work of defensively. I know I've been banging the drum for Graham, but with Kinghorn at 15 against France I'd probably stick with the more experienced duo of Maitland and Seymour in the XV. Graham should bench though.

Am nervous about France!!

I think i was more nervous before the Ireland game. As I've said before we're probably just going to have to mark this tournament as another developmental opportunity, we have too many injuries to really make an impact. If we can hold our own with reduced numbers and get 3 wins then we can consider it a success. I'd say at this point considering the walking wounded 2 would be par. We'd get 4 wins the same day i win the euromillions

I think 3 wins would have been a success for us even before all our injuries, however the Ireland game was eminently winnable and that was one I had assumed would be a pretty comprehensive Irish win.

I'm nervous about France as well, I know they were an absolute shambles against England, but lets not totally forget the first half against Wales and Scotland's utterly atrocious record in Paris.

EST wrote:I think 3 wins would have been a success for us even before all our injuries, however the Ireland game was eminently winnable and that was one I had assumed would be a pretty comprehensive Irish win.

I'm nervous about France as well, I know they were an absolute shambles against England, but lets not totally forget the first half against Wales and Scotland's utterly atrocious record in Paris.

Oh I'm not forgetting that, I'm just not as worried about winning in Paris. It wouldn't surprise me if the French decide they're going to take their inadequacies in the first two games out on Scotland. As long as the score is respectable and not a romp against us then I'll take a good performance if we don't manage the win, obviously ideally I'd like to see us win but our player situation just gets worse each day! If some of the young guys can step up that'd be enough of a result imo. If France play piss poorly and still win, we really should be asking questions about the mental state of our players.

Wales I think look better than they are, we should be looking to win, they literally win at the mind games, snuff us out and that's it, they're like our perennial boogieman. We need to put in a dominant performance there (if that's possible at the moment!).

England I really don't see happening. Again, as long as we don't embarrass ourselves, I'm happy enough.

Huw Jones to miss the rest of the 6N, Hogg still TBC

Ouch, that's a blow. Is Harris still the 2nd choice at 13? That's a big drop off even though Jones hasn't been setting the world alight

I agree with those wary of a France reaction, they're the type to just tell the coach to sod off and suddenly blitz a team, especially at home with all the criticism they've been taking

Bummer! Jones has just been lacking game time really and didn’t get any clear cut chances (to score)in the first two games. Still a shoe in for the RWC in my opinion, hope he mends up quick.

The injury list is really bad now but so glad we have Russell (assuming he doesn’t get injured this weekend in France). Kinghorn has a huge opportunity to really develop his international game in the back 3. Big opportunity for an outside centre too. I would go with Grigg personally. Small, yes, but paired with Johnson I think they could both do very well.

Anyone of our centres who puts in a performance this weekend could be playing for Scotland next weekend I imagine selection could be wide open

Nah. It'll be harris, sadly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47243657

Good interview with Alan Dell, who is definitely getting back to his best form, he played very well against Ireland.

You can't help feel his move away from Edinburgh was motivated by not wanting to be the second string there behind Schoey. Interestingly, he says that he could have gone to Glasgow, but I suppose he might have been in the same position behind Keeble there.

Hopefully the move to LI works out, they are really splashing out on players now, so are clearly not planning on yo-yoing back down again, unless the much touted ring fencing happens anyway.

The SOB signing is a real statement of intent by LI, and the Prem would be a good place for Dell to develop further.

We need Sutherland to make a come back as well. Big early promise but on the last few times I've seen him scrummage he's had problems. He's a big strong bloke so hopefully some good technical coaching can get him back on track. Scotland needs more depth at loosehead.

Schoeman signing for Edinburgh has certainly helped Edinburgh's performance but has been completely detrimental to the Scottish props developing as they just don't get played.

It shouldn't have to be that way - there are enough game to rotate players and give them gametime - but Cockers has played Schoeman at every opportunity and regularly gives him 70+ minutes, even when Dell is on the bench.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The SOB signing is a real statement of intent by LI, and the Prem would be a good place for Dell to develop further.

We need Sutherland to make a come back as well. Big early promise but on the last few times I've seen him scrummage he's had problems. He's a big strong bloke so hopefully some good technical coaching can get him back on track. Scotland needs more depth at loosehead.

Some better depth at tighthead wouldn't go amiss either. Or 8... or outside centre...

Is Dickinson coaching now? May be worth having him involved as a technical coach.

Dickinson has been coaching in the academies and he has been with the women's team lately too.

Hm, the only other prospect I can think of is George Thornton, who is playing some anglo-welsh ties down at Wasps. It'll be a while before he's ready though, he's still only 21/22.

RDW wrote:Schoeman signing for Edinburgh has certainly helped Edinburgh's performance but has been completely detrimental to the Scottish props developing as they just don't get played.

It shouldn't have to be that way - there are enough game to rotate players and give them gametime - but Cockers has played Schoeman at every opportunity and regularly gives him 70+ minutes, even when Dell is on the bench.

That's a very good point - if Cockers has a failing, I think it's his lack of rotation. Usually he ends up having to rotate huge amounts of his squad at once due to international call ups/injury, which has resulted in his 'b' team having some terrible results. He could adopt a much more gradual process where he is a bit more even handed with game time.

Problem is the B teams' failings (and there have been some spectacular ones this season) will justify to Cockers that they shouldn't get played!

RDW wrote:Problem is the B teams' failings (and there have been some spectacular ones this season) will justify to Cockers that they shouldn't get played!

It's a bit of a negative cycle though isn't it? I would argue that Cockers should have given the likes of CHH and McCallum some more game time earlier on in the season, which may have prepared them better for when they had to step up as starters.

The performances of the B team have really put Edinburgh's euro qualification in the balance, they have had some really terrible results.

EST wrote:

RDW wrote:Problem is the B teams' failings (and there have been some spectacular ones this season) will justify to Cockers that they shouldn't get played!

It's a bit of a negative cycle though isn't it? I would argue that Cockers should have given the likes of CHH and McCallum  some more game time earlier on in the season, which may have prepared them better for when they had to step up as starters.

The performances of the B team have really put Edinburgh's euro qualification in the balance, they have had some really terrible results.

I completely agree with you, I'm just trying to understand where Cockers is coming from.

He 100% should have played more squad players gradually earlier in the season.

RDW wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW wrote:Problem is the B teams' failings (and there have been some spectacular ones this season) will justify to Cockers that they shouldn't get played!

It's a bit of a negative cycle though isn't it? I would argue that Cockers should have given the likes of CHH and McCallum  some more game time earlier on in the season, which may have prepared them better for when they had to step up as starters.

The performances of the B team have really put Edinburgh's euro qualification in the balance, they have had some really terrible results.

I completely agree with you, I'm just trying to understand where Cockers is coming from.

He 100% should have played more squad players gradually earlier in the season.

Yeah, he definitely has his favourites (I suppose like most coaches), but I don't think his approach has helped. There was some interesting chat on the signings thread about how Hamish Watson ended up leaving the Tigers when Cockers was in charge.

Anyone else bummed that it's the off week for the 6Ns???

cry

Yes but luckily I’m in Dublin for a wedding this weekend so that’ll keep me entertained!

On a side note, has Johnson played 13 before? Perhaps he could be on Toonies mind to cover 13 with Horne slotting in at 12? Has that combo has been used by Glasgow before?

Johnson has started the odd game for Glasgow at 13. I do think he started there outside Horne once last season, but IIRC it wasn't a particularly spectacular success. Personally think we're better off letting him have a run of games (hopefully the whole 6N) at 12: he's looked very good there so far, and it would fix a big problem position for Scotland if he could make the shirt his own.

In other news, Zander Fagerson is back for Glasgow and starting on Saturday, which is excellent news for both them and Scotland. With Nel out, I wonder if Toonie would be tempted to bring him into the squad sooner rather than later, though you'd have to think the French game is too soon? Turner also back and starting, so hooker starting to look well covered again.

It's good that guys are starting to come back but the momentum has been lsot which means we're facing a poorer six nations to tha of last year.

I know folk like Morrison have slammed the bench for the drop off in intensity against Italy, but we got maximum points in that game (though I still worry about the lack of points scored come the end of comp table) but the guys missing wouldnt have made much difference against Ireland as the biggest issues were with the so called long term starters like Maitland, Seymour and Jones that really struggled and ultimately cost us that match.

tigertattie wrote:It's good that guys are starting to come back but the momentum has been lsot which means we're facing a poorer six nations to tha of last year.

I know folk like Morrison have slammed the bench for the drop off in intensity against Italy, but we got maximum points in that game (though I still worry about the lack of points scored come the end of comp table) but the guys missing wouldnt have made much difference against Ireland as the biggest issues were with the so called long term starters like Maitland, Seymour and Jones that really struggled and ultimately cost us that match.

We probably could have done with Nel in the scrum. Ireland got a couple of important penalties off that as well as getting a bit of forward momentum off the scrum. That certainly helped them.

I don't think we necessarily face a poorer Six Nations as it was only the sudden win over England that colours perceptions of it. We beat a poor France team at home, scraped past Italy away and dominated an England team that subsequently collapsed after a long year with the Lions Tour and Eddie Jones whipping them every day. We got hammered by Wales and squandered chances against Ireland (we just repeated that a bit sooner and closer this year).

If we go to Paris and win, hold home court against Wales and put up a fight against England, that is still three wins (and probably a respectable 3rd place). We will have comfortably put down an improving Italy and won away against a poor France. Wales are in an awkward spot at present as they looked poor against France and not much better vs Italy. They could turn it on and be competing for first or merely be in a holding pattern as 3rd/4th depending on who is home/away vs Scotland. No one can say for sure what they are. As long as we have no stinkers, that is key.

Rae not playing for Glasgow suggests he's needed for France.

The prospect of him shoring up our scrum against the French beasts is terrifying.

RDW wrote:Rae not playing for Glasgow suggests he's needed for France.

He's not listed as being held back for Scotland duty. Could just be that Zanderson is ready to start and Renzo prefers the impact of Nuke off the bench.

Harris and Graham start for Newcastle this weekend, Hardie on the bench.

McGuigan starts for Sale, Strauss on the bench.

Kerr on the bench for Leicester.

Lang on the bench for Quins.

Weir starts for Worcester.

That is about all I can see of our exiles playing in England.

Big games could put the Newcastle duo into the team for next weekend.

I was hoping Strauss would have been given a rest. At least he's not starting.

We're starting to look a bit up Poopie creek without a paddle. A team of players who aren't available would give the team we do have a really good game. But Hogg is immensely injury prone these days. He might well end up missing games at the world cup. Kinghorn playing at the Stade de France, at Twickenham and against Wales, as well as games in the Champions cup. That'll stand him in good stead come Autumn.
Outside centre is a bit more iffy but again the upside is Jones has been off the boil for a while, a bit of time away from the game and resting up might do him good.
It does show how we've come on as a country that we can now actually imagine playing France and Wales without the players we've lost. If five years ago you'd said we'd be without our first choice tighthead, arguably one of our first choice locks, our entire back row, our outside centre and our full-backs. Almost half the team is gone. The downside is that we can do this not because our player pathways have improved but because we have stacked our team with project players or Scottish qualified players who have come through elsewhere. Hooker is a unique position in that our first six choices are all Scottish (in fact five of them came through Edinburgh private schools).
I do think we're starting to look quite good for the world cup. We have options two or three players deep in every position.

Numbers - I'm not sure time away is what Jones need. Where he has been completely lacking this season is regular and consistent gametime. He has been totally stop start through injury and not being picked. His gametime minutes this season must be pretty low.

He got away with it last 6N but it has shown him up this time. He needs a run of games.

Numbers - I'm not sure time away is what Jones need. Where he has been completely lacking this season is regular and consistent gametime. He has been totally stop start through injury and not being picked. His gametime minutes this season must be pretty low.

He got away with it last 6N but it has shown him up this time. He needs a run of games.

I agree with RDW. Everyone is being very hard on Shuggy about his drop in form, but he just is not getting the time to find it. This is his third spell out injured this season, which is not really his fault. Hopefully he gets and stays fit after this one and gets a good run of games with Glasgow towards the end of the season. Form is temporary, class is permanent and all that!

The upside of these players getting less game time now, is that it might mean they are a lot fresher come the WC. It is going to be a very long and continuous season for some of them and those that play right through will be running on fumes by the end of it. I would not have chosen it this way for Jones or Hoggy, but it may have its upside as well.

Laidlaw starting for Clermont against Bordeaux on Saturday whilst all their France players (Parra, Lopez, Fofana, Penauld, Vaahamahina and Itturia) are rested.
Would imagine that Finn will be involved in Racing's game on Sunday.