Political round up.............

Thread Split! Culture Cup Rules!

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

560,000 members? So what? How many of them actually get involved at branch level, canvassing, handing out leaflets...you know, actual campaigning?. It's just a middle-class orgy of champagne socialists and naive politics.

3 bus loads turned up at places like Crewe during the Election..A place that wasn't even in play..Labour won there and in other places they weren't meant to..

560,000 members have wiped out Labour's debts and made them financially competitive with the Tories...

Left wing voters have voted for a wipe out of Blairites on committees..NEC etc..

Right wing mps. Chris Leslie..Angela Smith...Kate Hoey...Frank Field..Gavin Shuker...Joan Ryan have all been No confidenced by their new CLP member makeup over the last few months..

Naivety is thinking 560,000 members isn't a big deal..

Wow, three whole bus loads. Stirring stuff. Labour also lost in plenty more places that they needed to win in order to get a majority government.

The state of Labour is quite shocking. Nearly nine years of Tory government, a highly unpopular one at that, and Labour still can't get a consistent lead in the polls. If a GE were held tomorrow, the Tories would win the most seats.

Yes, I know all about the Momentum takeover of the Labour Party, and have posted about it before. It's why there is soon going to be a Labour split. It's why Labour have zero chance of toppling the Tories.

Naive to think otherwise...

Momentum haven't taken over Labour they have 37,000 members..

Maybe read 'To bet the House' a book on GE17 which states Tory mps in marginal seats were panicking seeing bus loads of Labour coming in..

"Stirring stuff" to them no doubt..

Your sarcasm as ever is misplaced my friend.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

560,000 members? So what? How many of them actually get involved at branch level, canvassing, handing out leaflets...you know, actual campaigning?. It's just a middle-class orgy of champagne socialists and naive politics.

3 bus loads turned up at places like Crewe during the Election..A place that wasn't even in play..Labour won there and in other places they weren't meant to..

560,000 members have wiped out Labour's debts and made them financially competitive with the Tories...

Left wing voters have voted for a wipe out of Blairites on committees..NEC etc..

Right wing mps. Chris Leslie..Angela Smith...Kate Hoey...Frank Field..Gavin Shuker...Joan Ryan have all been No confidenced by their new CLP member makeup over the last few months..

Naivety is thinking 560,000 members isn't a big deal..

Wow, three whole bus loads. Stirring stuff. Labour also lost in plenty more places that they needed to win in order to get a majority government.

The state of Labour is quite shocking. Nearly nine years of Tory government, a highly unpopular one at that, and Labour still can't get a consistent lead in the polls. If a GE were held tomorrow, the Tories would win the most seats.

Yes, I know all about the Momentum takeover of the Labour Party, and have posted about it before. It's why there is soon going to be a Labour split. It's why Labour have zero chance of toppling the Tories.

Naive to think otherwise...

Momentum haven't taken over Labour they have 37,000 members..

Maybe read 'To bet the House' a book on GE17 which states Tory mps in marginal seats were panicking seeing bus loads of Labour coming in..

"Stirring stuff" to them no doubt..

Your sarcasm as ever is misplaced my friend.

Numbers are irrelevant. Momentum have hold on key internal Labour Party positions, such as the NEC and numerous senior branch positions, leading to (as you said earlier) deselection and soon-to-be-deselection of numerous MPs and councillors considered to be on the 'right' or 'blairite' wing of the party.

And, oh my goodness, bus loads of activists going into marginal seats? You mean such as the type that happens at every single election by every single major party? What a shock.

Momentum backed 'Open selection' and it was voted down......Because whilst the left have control of the NEC not enough of them are from Momentum....If anything the Unions have more control of Labour...Left wing Unions like Unite have one of their own as Labour General Secretary (Jennie Formby) and they and the other Unions have more members on the governing committee than Momentum..

Worth remembering Formby fought off a bid by Momentum's Lansman..

As for the "Oh my goodness" bit......A 10 year old kid could have written that so I will ignore..

Except you didn't ignore it...you commented on it! Bus loads of activists are common things at elections - Labour's sky high membership hasn't altered this in any way. Because most of the influx are passive members.

The 'open selection' fight has only just begun.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Momentum backed 'Open selection' and it was voted down......Because whilst the left have control of the NEC not enough of them are from Momentum....If anything the Unions have more control of Labour...Left wing Unions like Unite have one of their own as Labour General Secretary (Jennie Formby) and they and the other Unions have more members on the governing committee than Momentum..

Worth remembering Formby fought off a bid by Momentum's Lansman..

As for the "Oh my goodness" bit......A 10 year old kid could have written that so I will ignore..

Turned out nice again.

Duty281 wrote:Except you didn't ignore it...you commented on it! Bus loads of activists are common things at elections - Labour's sky high membership hasn't altered this in any way. Because most of the influx are passive members.

Stick to making points you can back up.....

superflyweight wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Momentum backed 'Open selection' and it was voted down......Because whilst the left have control of the NEC not enough of them are from Momentum....If anything the Unions have more control of Labour...Left wing Unions like Unite have one of their own as Labour General Secretary (Jennie Formby) and they and the other Unions have more members on the governing committee than Momentum..

Worth remembering Formby fought off a bid by Momentum's Lansman..

As for the "Oh my goodness" bit......A 10 year old kid could have written that so I will ignore..

Turned out nice again.  

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Except you didn't ignore it...you commented on it! Bus loads of activists are common things at elections - Labour's sky high membership hasn't altered this in any way. Because most of the influx are passive members.

Stick to making points you can back up.....

I do, have no worries about that.

Been enquiring at my docs for 4 weeks, but still no flu jabs available for over 65s. Good for the economy in a way though I guess.

The docs suggested I go to Tescos for the flu jabs.
Checkout staff already got enough to do, shewerly?
Shambles.

Cardiff Dave wrote:The docs suggested I go to Tescos for the flu jabs.
Checkout staff already got enough to do, shewerly?
Shambles.

Bizarre advice that. Loss of revenue for your practice. Ours have fliers out pleading with people not to go to Tescos etc.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:The docs suggested I go to Tescos for the flu jabs.
Checkout staff already got enough to do, shewerly?
Shambles.

Bizarre advice that. Loss of revenue for your practice. Ours have fliers out pleading with people not to go to Tescos etc.

I was enquiring on behalf of an over 65 year old and they're free anyway at the docs. Apparently though, so I was told, the vaccines are different to those for under 65. There we are.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:The docs suggested I go to Tescos for the flu jabs.
Checkout staff already got enough to do, shewerly?
Shambles.

Bizarre advice that. Loss of revenue for your practice. Ours have fliers out pleading with people not to go to Tescos etc.

I was enquiring on behalf of an over 65 year old and they're free anyway at the docs. Apparently though, so I was told, the vaccines are different to those for under 65. There we are.

They are, yes, but I think the practice gets money for administering them as part of a wider national preventative programme. No vaccinations - no money.

Con 40 +1
Lab 35 -1

Disastrous poll for Labour but not surprising because on Brexit they are all over the place...

However over 100 mps have now said they aren't voting for May's deal so it will be of small comfort....Hard to see a future for her if she loses this vote heavily.....Hard to see a future for Corbyn either........Some tough love early next year from his mate McDonnell would be for the betterment of Labour.

Perhaps cut a deal with Thornberry where he stays SC if she takes over..

Never thought Corbyn wanted to be PM anyway..

Interesting times....

@Trussman, bit of context is that YouGov who commission the poll consistently show higher polling for the Tories than other pollsters. We had a couple of polls the other week showing Labour ahead by around 5 points. My personal hunch is probably for Labour ahead by a couple of points.

That said, I do agree Labour are all over the place on Brexit and that they risk alienating a lot of voters if they don't get it right. So far, Labour have just about got away with their stance, but if Corbyn doesn't get this right and make concerted effort to get a 2nd referendum he will lose a lot of the younger voters who he has attracted. Given that his slice of inner London is heavily remain I'm sure this message is being made to him and McDonnell's recent statements hint a shift to that position. If Corbyn plays it right he'll reap the rewards electorally, but we are entering crunch time.

Corbyn and McDonnell undoubtedly see electoral opportunities in the current Brexit quagmire the government is in, but they need to concentrate on avoiding hard no deal Brexit first before getting carried away with prospect of general election.

On the May v Corbyn debate I'm not sure what this will achieve in terms of Brexit, but Corbyn will of course use it to focus on austerity. Sturgeon and Cable ought to be invited too to make it more wide-ranging and meaningful. Not including Sturgeon plays into the narrative of Westminster ignoring Scotland.

MrInvisible wrote:@Trussman, bit of context is that YouGov who commission the poll consistently show higher polling for the Tories than other pollsters.  We had a couple of polls the other week showing Labour ahead by around 5 points.  My personal hunch is probably for Labour ahead by a couple of points.

That said, I do agree Labour are all over the place on Brexit and that they risk alienating a lot of voters if they don't get it right.  So far, Labour have just about got away with their stance, but if Corbyn doesn't get this right and make concerted effort to get a 2nd referendum he will lose a lot of the younger voters who he has attracted.  Given that his slice of inner London is heavily remain I'm sure this message is being made to him and McDonnell's recent statements hint a shift to that position.  If Corbyn plays it right he'll reap the rewards electorally, but we are entering crunch time.

Corbyn and McDonnell undoubtedly see electoral opportunities in the current Brexit quagmire the government is in, but they need to concentrate on avoiding hard no deal Brexit first before getting carried away with prospect of general election.

On the May v Corbyn debate I'm not sure what this will achieve in terms of Brexit, but Corbyn will of course use it to focus on austerity.  Sturgeon and Cable ought to be invited too to make it more wide-ranging and meaningful.  Not including Sturgeon plays into the narrative of Westminster ignoring Scotland.

Personally, can't see the point of this proposed debate and summed up by the childish row over which broadcaster it should be on (), but if it is to go ahead, it's crucial that it's Chaired by a strong person who can keep them on Brexit and stop them making their own points that're not really relevant. Would also need to be a long enough broadcast to seriously cover the topic. - if it's going to be 60 minutes or so, it'll be a complete waste of time.
Sturgeon, in all likelihood, will just bang on about Scotland and how they're discriminated against, but she probably should be involved. Cable? Is he still around? Talks sense a lot of the time, but his party are surely irrelevant in representative terms? Guess someone representing the Welsh view as well? DUP? Sinn Fein?

One might speculate that the current state of the NHS and the UK's other services are related to Brexit...

Certainly scope for lines like "We have to get Brexit right with over 4m people using Foodbanks".........."I certainly believe staying in a Custom's Union permanently will give us the security we need when we have record in work poverty"..

Hard to stop bullet lines like those....Be crazy if he didn't keep reeling them out..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One might speculate that the current state of the NHS and the UK's other services are related to Brexit...

Certainly scope for lines like "We have to get Brexit right with over 4m people using Foodbanks".........."I certainly believe staying in a Custom's Union permanently will give us the security we need when we have record in work poverty"..

Hard to stop bullet lines like those....Be crazy if he didn't keep reeling them out..

Maybe, although both of those things are extant before we've even enacted Brexit. Up to the Chair to deal with that sort of thing.

The whole point is he won't be able to stop him

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The whole point is he won't be able to stop him

Depends on the Chair but, sadly, you're probably right and one reason I won't be remotely interested in watching.

I still dont see the point in it.

Katie Hopkins, Diane Abbot, Owen Jones and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, now that would be a debate.

Anthony Hopkins, Bud Abbott, Indiana Jones and John Ono Lennon, now that would be a debate.

Four white men would be far too offensive for some, maybe your Jones should be Grace?

What's happening on the right in UK politics at the moment?

We have a sense of betrayal amongst Brexiters over May's deal, yet the Daily Mail, under a new owner, continues to back her to the hilt and condemn the likes of Rees Mogg. Last time I checked the Express was also backing May and criticising the ERG.

Meanwhile, you would have thought that UKIP would be really capitalising, yet they're having their own internal squabbles over working with the likes of Tommy Robinson - so far beyond the pale that even Farage thinks they're too right-wing.

Something tells me that we may see some realignment on the right/far-right of UK politics, especially if we avoid a hard Brexit. Whilst Brexiteer sugar daddy Aaron Banks is under investigation is someone else likely to fund a new party/political movement out of the ashes of UKIP and the ERG? Or is it all dependent on Banks and whether he gets cleared of wrongdoing?

Looking at the Tory Party today I struggle to see how the likes of Justine Greening, Nicky Morgan, Dominic Grieve and Jo Johnson can co-exist in same party as Rees Mogg and his acolytes.

I reckon Farage is distancing himself from UKIP for the time being so that when Brexit all goes tits up he can fall back in to lead the party. No doubt in my mind he shares the same views as Yaxley-Lennon, he's just a much better politician about it.

It also has to be said that the right are eating themselves at the minute, and Labour are still behind in most polls. They're not perfect, but Im glad we have the SNP in Scotland as a viable option.

I wouldn't vote UKIP in a million years but to suggest Farage shares the same views as this Jailbird race baiter is a bridge too far..

This kid is the pits..

Farage isnt a race baiter? Standing infront of a billboard picturing Asian refugees telling them we’re full and they’re not welcome? Like I said, he’s share the same values as Lennon but has to hide them more for when he returns to frontline politics.

Grrrrr!!!!!!!
Makes me want to don a high viz and.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46470079

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One might speculate that the current state of the NHS and the UK's other services are related to Brexit...

Certainly scope for lines like "We have to get Brexit right with over 4m people using Foodbanks".........."I certainly believe staying in a Custom's Union permanently will give us the security we need when we have record in work poverty"..

Hard to stop bullet lines like those....Be crazy if he didn't keep reeling them out..

Cods.
NHS been going downhill for donkeys. A recently retired GP I spoke to 3 years ago suggested 30 years. We were discussing general nursing, home care and residential care, as it happens.
There we are.

No confidence vote in Theresa May this evening.

Ladbrokes have it at 1/2 that she wins it; think I'd agree with that.

Duty281 wrote:No confidence vote in Theresa May this evening.

Ladbrokes have it at 1/2 that she wins it; think I'd agree with that.

This is probably a bit like Brexit itself - precipitate a situation (in this case a vote of no confidence), but have no plan for if you 'win' i.e. hard to see anyone wanting this poisoned chalice. Can't see the Brexit cowards stepping forward with any confidence.

Cowardice? Nice term. Lots of it about. "We can't survive on our own! - even though little old New Zealand manages it on the wrong side of the planet all out on its own in the big, bad Pacific." That's a version of cowardice too. It gets around.

Anyway, on a separate 'political' topic - though it might be all related as every event in the world seems to be so pointed related to every other event recently - as though choreographed.

But on to this 'crisis' concerning the Chinese Huawei official in Canada.  The new development in that case sees China appear to do a reciprocal move in arresting an employee of The International Crisis Group, a former Canadian diplomat, Michael Kovrig.  The suspicion is that he'll be accused of spying.

Anyway, the funny thing about the case is the dumb statement made by ICG's boss: "I don't want to speculate as to what's behind it but I am prepared to be categorical about what's not behind it, and what's not behind it is any illegal activity or endangering of Chinese national security. [so far so reasonable] Everything we do it transparent, it's on our website.  We don't engage in secretive work, in confidential work."

There you go - that's proof that an NGO member is not involved in spying - couldn't be, it isn't mentioned on their website.

SecretFly wrote:Cowardice?  Nice term.  Lots of it about.  "We can't survive on our own! - even though little old New Zealand manages it on the wrong side of the planet all out on its own in the big, bad Pacific."  That's a version of cowardice too.  It gets around.

A rambling, tangential reply as per usual. Shall I be clearer? Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Davies, Fox et al are cowards. They won't stand for what they say they believe in and all they do is carp from the sidelines for their own personal aggrandisement. They're pathetic.

Little old New Zealand has a population of about 6 (to be clear, I exaggerate) and has grown into its current economic and political state over decades. We're about to crash out of the EU with chuff all deal, with an economy that currently relies a lot on EU trade and our position as a member of the EU etc. I don't give a XXXX if we sort it out OK 40 years from now. All because of a few self-interested w.a.nkers. You'd struggle to make this up if it wasn't real.

Cowardice is cowardice...you brought it up. Own the term in all its manifestations.

Is that less rambling for you, navy?

SecretFly wrote:Anyway, on a separate 'political' topic - though it might be all related as every event in the world seems to be so pointed related to every other event recently - as though choreographed.

But on to this 'crisis' concerning the Chinese Huawei official in Canada.  The new development in that case sees China appear to do a reciprocal move in arresting an employee of The International Crisis Group, a former Canadian diplomat, Michael Kovrig.  The suspicion is that he'll be accused of spying.

Anyway, the funny thing about the case is the dumb statement made by ICG's boss: "I don't want to speculate as to what's behind it but I am prepared to be categorical about what's not behind it, and what's not behind it is any illegal activity or endangering of Chinese national security. [so far so reasonable] Everything we do it transparent, it's on our website.  We don't engage in secretive work, in confidential work."

There you go - that's proof that an NGO member is not involved in spying - couldn't be, it isn't mentioned on their website.

Tinfoil alert!

Although I agree that guy's statement is unbelievably cretinous. How did he get to be head of anything?

Anyway, back to 'politics' and the fire in the Google offices in China....

...that'll be all over the news I suspect.............................

SecretFly wrote:Cowardice is cowardice...you brought it up.  Own the term in all its manifestations.

Is that less rambling for you, navy?

Not really, as I fail to see the link to New Zealand. The trouble with you is you can never make things clear, as you get caught up in trying to be clever using lots of weird analogies etc. Each to their own I guess, but forgive us if we aren't up to your intellectual standards.

navyblueshorts wrote:
Tinfoil alert!

You're slipping again, navy. A few weeks of BBC schmaltz and you're back to being asleep. Thought you said you'd woken up a few weeks ago about something or other?

I thought we were gaining a convert

It's nothing to do with intellectual standards... it's simply following the money and where it leads to...in politics.

For example.... is the Clinton Foundation a NGO?

Duty281 wrote:No confidence vote in Theresa May this evening.

Ladbrokes have it at 1/2 that she wins it; think I'd agree with that.

Closed to 1/6 now, so it sounds like a done deal.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:No confidence vote in Theresa May this evening.

Ladbrokes have it at 1/2 that she wins it; think I'd agree with that.

This is probably a bit like Brexit itself - precipitate a situation (in this case a vote of no confidence), but have no plan for if you 'win' i.e. hard to see anyone wanting this poisoned chalice. Can't see the Brexit cowards stepping forward with any confidence.

I'm expecting Raab and Gove to go for it. Possibly Grieve as well.

Duty281 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:No confidence vote in Theresa May this evening.

Ladbrokes have it at 1/2 that she wins it; think I'd agree with that.

This is probably a bit like Brexit itself - precipitate a situation (in this case a vote of no confidence), but have no plan for if you 'win' i.e. hard to see anyone wanting this poisoned chalice. Can't see the Brexit cowards stepping forward with any confidence.

I'm expecting Raab and Gove to go for it. Possibly Grieve as well.

Be interesting. Raab and/or Grieve can't seriously think they're good enough can they? Gove isn't trusted by anyone is he? Pretty much any candidate who's known by the wider public is contaminated by this Brexit stupidity. Personally, I'm not sure it matters as I suspect the Tories have done immeasurable damage to themselves as a party in the foreseeable future. This latest self-obsessed insanity really takes the biscuit.

May isn't winning anything tonight...The fact she is having a no confidence vote while steering a Govt without a majority and with the DUP threatening to finish it anytime is a nightmare and not just for her..

Feel sorry for the UK they deserve better..

No Govt...No opposition...A tragic mess...

Smaller Parties like the Libs and Greens that are so irrelevant they can't cash in..

Could be worse though...Could be in France.

Or the USA.

Standard of living has gone up in the USA...

As has gun-related deaths...