Scarlets coach unhappy with Pro14 medical procedures

First topic message reminder :

Coach Wayne Pivac has queried the role of independent medical advisors after Scarlets' Pro14 defeat by Benetton.

Scrum-half Kieran Hardy and back-rower Josh Macleod were taken off despite being passed fit by Scarlets medics.

Pivac believes the temporary loss of the players for head injury assessments, complicated by language problems, influenced the score-line.

"To take guys off after ... our guys have checked and cleared him, I find strange," he said.

"HIA's aren't my favourite subject at the moment.

"We'll go through a process with our medical team of reporting it through to the Welsh Rugby Union ... it's information for the powers-that-be to hopefully make improvements for next season."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47305546

marty2086 wrote:I’m struggling to see where Pivac said they couldn’t speak English

Marty it’s written in the OP.

“Pivac believes the temporary loss of the players for head injury assessments, complicated by language problems, influenced the score-line.”

It says things were complicated not that they couldn’t speak English, that’s a leap on your part. As someone who deals with multiple nationalities on a daily basis, they can be fluent in English but accents, tone and slang are just a few issues that complicate communication

It’s not written in the OP, it says things were complicated there is a difference

Well either way there shouldn't be a complication with language if we're having independent medics, officials, etc. We occasionally have officials who don't speak English but it's negated by the fact that the rest of the officiating team can speak both languages; we often see TMOs only speaking French or Italian - could this be why Wales keep getting legit tries disallowed . Aside from the fact that players were fine, Pivac raised another good point and that seems to have got a few people triggered. Strange.

If BBC lied about it then that sure is some bad reporting, yet somewhat unsurprising.

Think that's just because everyone wants to see Wales lose

It’ll happen, sure Poite, Barnes etc have issues with language when reffing

BamBam wrote:Think that's just because everyone wants to see Wales lose

Yeah captain obvious, we know.

"To take guys off after our guys have checked and cleared him, I find strange," he said.
Could the language problems have been grammatical?

Guirado, checked on field yesterday and then pulled of for a HIA 10 mins later. Guess the independent medic couldnt speak English or French yesterday

Serious question. How does the independent medic check players when the on-field team doctor says he is ok to continue?

demosthenes wrote:Serious question.  How does the independent medic check players when the on-field team doctor says he is ok to continue?

They use video of the incident and watch the player for displaying symptoms, symptoms of concussion arent always immediate, they can take days to show. In Guirados case he probably should have been taken off right away and not 10 mins later

That's what I thought. Also agree re Guirado.

Guirado wasn’t happy about coming off but someone, either the French team doc or the independent doc (I've not seen it reported as an incident so not sure who it was), decided he was to come off and off he came.

Should he have come off earlier? Maybe. He was looked at when the incident occurred and he and the medic/doc felt he was ok. Certainly looks like with the benefit of hindsight he should have been off earlier, but then we're all experts in hindsight aren’t we.

Could we start to see a general rule that if there is impact with the head then it's an automatic HIA check, not just when it looks like it may be needed, but in every instance? it's that or I think we will end up moving to protective gear down the line. Not full on hard helmets like in the NFL, but more a thicker more protective version of the scrum cap and perhaps one of those foam neck brace things!

I know the purists won’t like it but I'm pretty sure the first boy to wear a gumshield in rugby was scoffed at to start with.

There is a risk though that the extra protective gear gives a false sense of security, within the NFL there has long been a feeling that the helmets made players feel invincible and they were flying around using the helmet as a tackling aid

I didn't see the France game, but from reading above, that sounds like it was a perfect example of the independent medic system working as it should

Guirado was clearly not right after the impact and looked groggy, it probably should have been a card for the Scotland player for leading with his forearm, but it took about 10 mins before anyone decided he needed to come off for a HIA, if the system was working he would have been off sooner and not back on in less than 5 mins

Agree with BamBam.  I remember reading some research papers a few years back that said the same - players tended to go in harder and more head first, often striking with the head, than those not wearing head gear.  Something to do with feeling more protected and invincible.  

Scrum caps are only meant to stop abrasion, cuts and soft tissue injuries.  Concussion is from the brain being 'sloshed' inside the skull - so scrum caps can't stop that.  Nor can NFL style helmets.  In fact, I think I remember recently a player being awarded huge damages (in the millions of $) from the NFL due to concussions and the resultant effects.  He managed to successfully claim that the NFL didn't do anything to mitigate or protect players.  There was a fear it would lead to thousands of other claims but it went a bit quiet after that.

I think the cases against the NFL were as much to do with the fact the NFL had information showing the dangers of concussion and they covered it up so they were negligent there

Don't get me wrong, scrum caps do not stop concussion and they are really only effective at keeping your ears from being mushed in a scrum (which is why I don't get why backs wear them)

However, if you were to make a thicker scrum cap, it would cushion at least some of the blow.

But yes, I suppose the more protection you give them, the more likey they are to hurl themselves into danger more.

Our issue is modern rugby has become a race to the bottom. Speed and skill seems to be second behind muscle mass and power. I think it may be time that we (without altering the rules and stucture of the game) move to maybe 13 or 14 players to make more space on the park to encourage speed and skill rather than brute force.

And no, I'm not saying convert to league, they have fewer players but the rules (no rucking) mean defences can spread out so they are still built to bosh up the middle.

marty2086 wrote:Guirado, checked on field yesterday and then pulled of for a HIA 10 mins later. Guess the independent medic couldnt speak English or French yesterday

Another dumb comment which is all you seem to post nowadays.

Whereas that post is an important contribution to the debate?

I mean it’s not like there is a clear parallel to be drawn between the situations given the language barrier and the player being cleared but it’s me who is making dumb comments apparently

How? We were discussing the pro14 and in particular this incident, and you allude to an unrelated one in a different competition. The scarlets players were passed fit and came through their game on the weekend, both playing really well. I even said the other day how the 6N officials would overcome any possible language barrier and suggested that the Pro14 needed more bilingual people so they could too. You popping up with something unrelated in your usual arrogant and sarcastic tone for the sake of trying to get another word in is stupid.

I was referring to the comments being dumb or stupid, not any individual, just to clear it up.

So I’m not allowed to point out how things work in other competitions when people say these things only happen in the Pro14? Makes loads of sense that

I’m pretty sure nobody was saying that this only happens in the Pro14; if they did then they’re probably wrong. As it stands we were discussing the Pro14 so it’s kinda irrelevant for reasons pointed out several times already.

There's always flavour of the month issues in leagues/Internationals. Remember the period when eye gouging seemed to have become an epidemic and despite the refs tightening up on things the episodes kept happening and it was all the rage in these threads. Then that died away and was replaced with another BIG issue of contention... was it something like choke holds or something?
Anyway, looks like people are itching for a new issue that might grow and grow into a 606 epic (although there are few of them anymore given how few people remain on these boards).... it might grow and grow and we'll have coaches groan and journalists moan for a few months - or it might just fall away as a topic because independent medics are hear to stay and there'll always be challenged decisions and view in all aspects of rugby. But just as refs and players have to learn some languages at least enough to get by, maybe team medics should be challenged to learn a little working Italian rather than employing yet another strand of officialdom in Pro14 with a dedicated group of official translators. Nice work even though they could go through an entire season sitting on their bums doing nothing except watching some free games.

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m pretty sure nobody was saying that this only happens in the Pro14; if they did then they’re probably wrong. As it stands we were discussing the Pro14 so it’s kinda irrelevant for reasons pointed out several times already.

So when people go on about the ineptitude of the league, it being brought into disrepute and that members are burying their head in the sand because they mention wider issues within the game which they refuse to acknowledge what they really mean is that is that it's not just the Pro14?

We’re fans of the Pro14 discussing the Pro14; still not sure why it’s so hard for you to grasp.

please feel free to show me what the parameters for debate have been set as

Mikey, the point tends to be that we're NOT all fans of the Pro14 who turn up to discuss Pro14. Indeed, many of the dedicated threads written About the Pro14 workings - no most of them - are written by one or two posters decidedly NOT fans of Pro14.

why are we comparing the situation with the 6N and the situation of the Pro14 ?

If anything it proved the point even further, and the fact that the 6N got things right, and the Pro14 did not.

In what way did the Pro14 get it wrong?

Why is it Scarlets didn't get it wrong?

marty2086 wrote:In what way did the Pro14 get it wrong?

Why is it Scarlets didn't get it wrong?

Is it down to the Scarlets now to make sure they can speak Italian ?

If they're so animated about not understanding an Italian, the yep, maybe it's down to them to learn a little Italian, Lord. I've seen this attitude in you before more than once. Let the others adapt to our way rather than the other way round.... the ways of Empire

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:In what way did the Pro14 get it wrong?

Why is it Scarlets didn't get it wrong?

Is it down to the Scarlets now to make sure they can speak Italian ?

Except no one anywhere has said the medics couldn't speak English...well except for you

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:In what way did the Pro14 get it wrong?

Why is it Scarlets didn't get it wrong?

Is it down to the Scarlets now to make sure they can speak Italian ?

Except no one anywhere has said the medics couldn't speak English...well except for you

There were problems with the language it's in the article and in the OP. Why do you keep trying to refute that ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:In what way did the Pro14 get it wrong?

Why is it Scarlets didn't get it wrong?

Is it down to the Scarlets now to make sure they can speak Italian ?

Except no one anywhere has said the medics couldn't speak English...well except for you

There were problems with the language it's in the article and in the OP. Why do you keep trying to refute that ?

Why do you struggle to grasp I'm not

They said the process was complicated by language issues but why does that suddenly mean that the medics and league are in the wrong? Why is it not possible that the independent medics were right to take both players off for HIAs?

Because they affected the outcome of the game...... the implication from Pivac, no matter how you try to dress it, is complicity in trying to stall Scarlets. The rest of it is just language so as not to draw a fine for bringing game into disrepute.

marty2086 wrote:Why do you struggle to grasp I'm not

They said the process was complicated by language issues but why does that suddenly mean that the medics and league are in the wrong? Why is it not possible that the independent medics were right to take both players off for HIAs?

marty, what on Gods green earth are you talking about now ?

I am not calling the anybody right or wrong here, I have even said on this very thread that I am not a doctor so what would I know.

What I am having issues over is that in a supposedly professional league, we were in a situation where language is an issue. It's a farce.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Why do you struggle to grasp I'm not

They said the process was complicated by language issues but why does that suddenly mean that the medics and league are in the wrong? Why is it not possible that the independent medics were right to take both players off for HIAs?

marty, what on Gods green earth are you talking about now ?

I am not calling the anybody right or wrong here, I have even said on this very thread that I am not a doctor so what would I know.

What I am having issues over is that in a supposedly professional league, we were in a situation where language is an issue. It's a farce.

Except you don't know what the issue is, you are saying it's a farce without the details so if you are saying the league is a farce you are saying they are in the wrong

The issue could be that the independent medic said they had to come off, Scarlets saying they cleared them and the independent medics rightly ignoring them and then Pivac saying it was a language problem

Hence, why do you automatically assume the problem is with the league?

marty2086 wrote:Except you don't know what the issue is, you are saying it's a farce without the details so if you are saying the league is a farce you are saying they are in the wrong Rolling Eyes

I do know what the issue is, it' the language, FFS. It's in the OP and in the article. Why are you being so obstinate ?

marty2086 wrote:The issue could be that the independent medic said they had to come off, Scarlets saying they cleared them and the independent medics rightly ignoring them and then Pivac saying it was a language problem

NO. It states that Pivac believes there were language problems. End of.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Except you don't know what the issue is, you are saying it's a farce without the details so if you are saying the league is a farce you are saying they are in the wrong Rolling Eyes

I do know what the issue is, it' the language, FFS. It's in the OP and in the article. Why are you being so obstinate ?

marty2086 wrote:The issue could be that the independent medic said they had to come off, Scarlets saying they cleared them and the independent medics rightly ignoring them and then Pivac saying it was a language problem

NO. It states that Pivac believes there were language problems. End of.

Please explain exactly what the language problem was then

marty2086 wrote:Please explain exactly what the language problem was then

They couldn't understand each other. I would consider that quite the language problem.

Wow, your hard work.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Please explain exactly what the language problem was then

They couldn't understand each other. I would consider that quite the language problem.

Wow, your hard work.

And where does it say that in the OP?

And it's you're

Pivac believes the temporary loss of the players for head injury assessments, complicated by language problems, influenced the score-line. wrote:

Now please, stop !!!!

There's a joke here of course.... as I see two English speakers have a major communication breakdown. What happens in these situations? Pro14 threads...... pathetic!

LordDowlais wrote:

Now please, stop !!!!

And where does that say they couldn't understand each other?

SecretFly wrote:There's a joke here of course.... as I see two English speakers have a major communication breakdown.  What happens in these situations?  Pro14 threads...... pathetic!

Now there's only one with the issue to be honest...he's not saying anyone is right or wrong but Scarlets did nothing wrong and the leagues a farce

Someone who can't grasp complexity or keep track of his own accusations really is a struggle to deal with

Where it says language problems.

Marty, come on. This is desperate, even for you. Give it up.

Lord, is Pivac, in your opinion, saying that his Medics were screaming at the independent medic that their guys were okay, perfectly fine..... and that the independent medic was nodding in agreement and saying in his own language ' I agree with you, the players can't be risked back onto the field. The risks are too high.'
Is that what he's saying? It's the only thing he could be saying, that the independent medic Agreed with his medics but misinterpreted what they said. That's the only way a language barrier was the culprit. Now if the independent medic simply disagreed with Pivac medics and despite the language barrier, made it certain he wasn't allowing the players back on, then that's nothing to do with language and simply a medical disagreement.

LordDowlais wrote:Where it says language problems.

Marty, come on. This is desperate, even for you. Give it up.

Not desperate at all, language issues don't equate to not understanding each other

Do you believe the medics were wrong to remove the players?