Scarlets coach unhappy with Pro14 medical procedures

First topic message reminder :

Coach Wayne Pivac has queried the role of independent medical advisors after Scarlets' Pro14 defeat by Benetton.

Scrum-half Kieran Hardy and back-rower Josh Macleod were taken off despite being passed fit by Scarlets medics.

Pivac believes the temporary loss of the players for head injury assessments, complicated by language problems, influenced the score-line.

"To take guys off after ... our guys have checked and cleared him, I find strange," he said.

"HIA's aren't my favourite subject at the moment.

"We'll go through a process with our medical team of reporting it through to the Welsh Rugby Union ... it's information for the powers-that-be to hopefully make improvements for next season."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47305546

marty2086 wrote:Not desperate at all, language issues don't equate to not understanding each other

Well, what else can it be ?

marty2086 wrote:Do you believe the medics were wrong to remove the players?

I don't know, I'm not a doctor.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Not desperate at all, language issues don't equate to not understanding each other

Well, what else can it be ?

An excuse? A belief on the Scarlets side that the independent medics didn't understand them when they did? A simple misunderstanding?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Do you believe the medics were wrong to remove the players?

I don't know, I'm not a doctor.

Then how can you call it a farce if you don't know the details and don't know if the right decision was made by the medics?

Even if the independent medic's assessment was wrong, but he was clear in his own head (where there is no language barrier) that he was reading the signs of concussion right, then that is Not a language issue. So again is Pivac saying the independent medic thought he was in agreement with Scarlet medics or is he claiming the independent medic was wrong in his assessments?

marty2086 wrote:An excuse? A belief on the Scarlets side that the independent medics didn't understand them when they did? A simple misunderstanding?

What was said does not mean it was an excuse, marty, I am leaving this now.

marty2086 wrote:Then how can you call it a farce if you don't know the details and don't know if the right decision was made by the medics?

I never said it was a farce because of that, I said it was a farce because in a supposedly pro competition we are getting language complications. Like I said, this is the last I am saying on this. So if I do not reply, you now know why.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:An excuse? A belief on the Scarlets side that the independent medics didn't understand them when they did? A simple misunderstanding?

What was said does not mean it was an excuse, marty, I am leaving this now.

marty2086 wrote:Then how can you call it a farce if you don't know the details and don't know if the right decision was made by the medics?

I never said it was a farce because of that, I said it was a farce because in a supposedly pro competition we are getting language complications. Like I said, this is the last I am saying on this. So if I do not reply, you now know why.

Except you don't know what happened, you are making a conclusion based on your own antiPro14 agenda. Pretty typical of you being shown up as having no clue as to what's going on, blaming everyone else then going and sulking in the corner rather than holding your hands up and saying you don't know what happened

I think the telling words from Pivac is: 'HIAs aren't my favourite subject at the moment''.
Well that's grand but Pivac isn't playing in these increasingly ferocious contact games. A subject that impedes his ability to keep a team in the field, win a game, win a title, increase his reputation, increase his salary asking price.
I don't doubt that HIAs gets in the way of coaching ambitions. Maybe Pro14 should be progressive, show up the other backward leagues and ban them?

SecretFly wrote:I think the telling words from Pivac is: 'HIAs aren't my favourite subject at the moment''.
Well that's grand but Pivac isn't playing in these increasingly ferocious contact games.  A subject that impedes his ability to keep a team in the field, win a game, win a title, increase his reputation, increase his salary asking price.
I don't doubt that HIAs gets in the way of coaching ambitions.  Maybe Pro14 should be progressive, show up the other backward leagues and ban them?  

Ban what? Coaches? Great idea!

How’s this for a parameter; the players in question were passed fit by the Scarlets medics, only to be wrongfully overruled by the ‘independent Italian-speaking’ medics. The players were still fit after the game and were able to play in the Scarlets win over Cheetahs. Who gives a hoot whether or not this happened in the Top14; it happened in the Pro14 and those of us who support it would rather it didn’t happen again. I’ve already said this a few times but it appears I’m having to repeat myself

mikey_dragon wrote:How’s this for a parameter; the players in question were passed fit by the Scarlets medics, only to be wrongfully overruled by the ‘independent Italian-speaking’ medics. The players were still fit after the game and were able to play in the Scarlets win over Cheetahs. Who gives a hoot whether or not this happened in the Top14; it happened in the Pro14 and those of us who support it would rather it didn’t happen again. I’ve already said this a few times but it appears I’m having to repeat myself :

There you go being abusive yet showing a clear lack of understanding around the HIA protocols and concussion symptoms

Ever think that the players showed signs of concussion and the Scarlets medics were wrong not to send them for a HIA? Of course not but it's not like others have passed players only to have independent medics send them for a HIA...you know like happened on Saturday with both Horne and Guirado?

The whole reason for the independent medic is to pick up on things the team medics might miss or 'overlook' but of course the system doing what it's meant to do apparently is the system not working according to you all because of the end result of passing the HIA which irrelevant to the actual process

They were wrong, I don’t see how they should be held in such high regard when they were so blatantly wrong? That said, better safe than sorry and hopefully they were acting in the interests of players’ health rather than fishy tactics.

mikey_dragon wrote:They were wrong, I don’t see how they should be held in such high regard when they were so blatantly wrong? That said, better safe than sorry and hopefully they were acting in the interests of players’ health rather than fishy tactics.

If they were acting in the players interests they weren't wrong, that's exactly what they are there to do

As already explained to you, showing symptoms doesn't mean you fail a HIA. Guirado was groggy on Saturday, was taken off for a HIA and passed his HIA. Were those medics wrong to take him off? No, they were right

Are we saying if a player passes their HIA it was wrong to take them off. Surely the result of the HIA has nothing to do with it, its a medical opinion that concussion may have happened and needs further tests.

It's not like you would tell your doctor he is a complete moron because he sent you for tests that came clear.

"That said, better safe than sorry". Correct mikey. Now why does it seem so difficult to ask Pivac to have the same attitude? Delighted the players seem to be okay... but the decisions are not about retrospective crystal balls, they are about looking after player welfare in the present - precaution before consideration of the score line.

Is there an independent team doing it in the 6N? If not I don’t see what relevance it has here apart from to inform people of the HIA protocol.

I’m saying that Pivac was right to bring it up as an issue, for possibly a language/translation issue as well as undermining the Scarlets medical team. According to World Rugby the team doctor carries the prime responsibility, so another reason to question the ‘independent’ teams role in this. If they were acting a players best interests then most if not all supporters would be okay with it. To bring it up as Pivac has is absolutely fine, and if some circles suspect more went on then so be it.

I'm sure 99 times out of a hundred team medics ARE acting in the players best interests. But that's not why independent medics were brought in. Independent medic were brought in as far as I can recall because real events happened in real games where it could be argued that team medics acted either under duress of coach or in the interests of the team performance (best players kept on field or introduced back onto the field when obviously incapable). Also wasn't it a team medic (correct me if I'm remembering if wrong) who gave the player the false blood veal in the blood gate saga under direction of the coach. So in actual events team medics have been seen to be compromised.
It's not unreasonable to have an independent medical assessor... and just how often in a year do they disagree with team medics? Not that often at all as far as I can tell.
But even so, this still takes us away from language difference being the issue. Still feel it's Pivac saying the independent medic was 'wrong'. He's entitled to that opinion but should just say so..and it still doesn't negate the requirement for that independent voice.
Just one more thing as I'm thinking...so let's say the majority of medics are principled and good.... then why not just have the opposition team medics have that 'second opinion' role in contentious H I A cases. Let them say an opposition player looks unfit to continue? NOOOO!!!!!! They'd cheat! Same difference so.

mikey_dragon wrote:Is there an independent team doing it in the 6N? If not I don’t see what relevance it has here apart from to inform people of the HIA protocol.

I’m saying that Pivac was right to bring it up as an issue, for possibly a language/translation issue as well as undermining the Scarlets medical team. According to World Rugby the team doctor carries the prime responsibility, so another reason to question the ‘independent’ teams role in this. If they were acting a players best interests then most if not all supporters would be okay with it. To bring it up as Pivac has is absolutely fine, and if some circles suspect more went on then so be it.

Given you have tried to quote from the World Rugby protocols for elite professional teams which clearly state there is a independent match day doctor will be present how can you ask if there is an independent team for the 6Ns?

It seems you like to tell people what is and isn't relevant yet don't have a grasp of how the system is that is being discussed?

Plus if you are going to quote World Rugby it's always best to do it fully rather than paraphrasing

The team doctor has the primary responsibility for conducting the off-field screen

The reason for this is that is because parts of the have no subjectivity to it such as the Maddox Test which is a series of questions asked of the player leaving the field that relate to the game to test their memory recall, one failed question equals no HIA and removal from the game. Footage is also checked and if it shows the player losing consciousness, again, no HIA and removed from the game. If they do get to the HIA assessment it is over seen by the match day doctor so while the test may be conducted by the team doctor he can be overruled by the match day doctor and is ruled against a baseline assessment

Some of the typical Maddox questions being:
Is the refs always against you?
Is the Pro14 League despicable?
Should IRFU accounts be more transparent, especially about Munster?

If the answer is affirmative for all three then the player is fine and good to continue playing

SecretFly wrote:Some of the typical Maddox questions being:
Is the refs always against you?
Is the Pro14 League despicable?
Should IRFU accounts be more transparent, especially about Munster?

If the answer is affirmative for all three then the player is fine and good to continue playing

Are they also Welsh qualified too?