Wales v England - Matchday

First topic message reminder :

https://www.606v2.com/t68441-wales-v-england-thread-6-nations

The time is now!
The day is here!

LondonTiger wrote:ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

Really do think it's just mis communications tonight....

Genuine thanks to the fans congratulating us. Much appreciated

As i said at the start of the day: "Now is the time Kato" - and Wales really turned up today: incredible intensity, accuracy and self belief. Williams was outstanding under the English bombs and his wingers werent half bad either. the second half pressure really wore England, and Synckler in particular, down and their accuracy and structure dissipated as the second half unfolded. Well done Wales.
PS. i wont mind if you have an off day at Murrayfield. We need all the help we can get!

Yeah. Let's move this back to the game.

What a satisfying win! Not only were England looking very good in their last 4 performances, making this victory some achievement, but also the hype! Comments like this...

Duty281 wrote:Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

(nothing personal Duty!)

...are particularly satisfying. As I tried to say in the build-up this week, Wales have been close for the last 4 losses in the 6Ns. Only time they were pumped was 2014, and even then 1/2P kept the score respectable. For England to have a comfortable victory, or as some suggested just 'turn up' and play 7/10 (I'd call their performance 6.5-7 today tbh), it would have been going against the history books and indeed form. I do get English 'confidence' and, in some ways, it's not really your fault - you're conditioned to think England is the best (to a degree, certainly relative to the rest of the UK) and the media is very much pro-England when they win anything/string a few wins together. But I never, ever saw a comfortable win occurring - think I predicted 22-17 to Wales before the game, or 22-27 to England, so not far off?

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

Muppet move by him

So the mod warnings are just to be ignored from now on?

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

I'm really trying hard to ignore but - for context:

Duty281 wrote:

miaow wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

Just quoting this for later on...

It won't be edited or removed, have no fear!

I wanted to come back to this as, quite clearly, I disagreed with it. It felt hubristic and part of a trend of England being overhyped. Nothing personal towards Duty, no issue with him whatsoever. Please, give it a rest and stop trying to get me banned...it's very boring...

miaow wrote:Yeah. Let's move this back to the game.

What a satisfying win! Not only were England looking very good in their last 4 performances, making this victory some achievement, but also the hype! Comments like this...

Duty281 wrote:Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

(nothing personal Duty!)

...are particularly satisfying. As I tried to say in the build-up this week, Wales have been close for the last 4 losses in the 6Ns. Only time they were pumped was 2014, and even then 1/2P kept the score respectable. For England to have a comfortable victory, or as some suggested just 'turn up' and play 7/10 (I'd call their performance 6.5-7 today tbh), it would have been going against the history books and indeed form. I do get English 'confidence' and, in some ways, it's not really your fault - you're conditioned to think England is the best (to a degree, certainly relative to the rest of the UK) and the media is very much pro-England when they win anything/string a few wins together. But I never, ever saw a comfortable win occurring - think I predicted 22-17 to Wales before the game, or 22-27 to England, so not far off?

Nonsense. I'm more than happy to say it when I think England will lose (like against Ireland or New Zealand) and equally happy to say it when I think England will win.

I don't think England were anywhere near a '7' today. They were around a 3 or 4. First half was about a 6/10 showing, just above average, but more than enough to keep Wales at bay, and had they continued like that, England would have won - but the second half was an abysmal 2/10 performance. As mentioned earlier, the worst half I've seen England play in some time - I'm glad Wales put them away after that dire second forty minutes, because no team deserves to win after such an abysmal display.

England were strong favourites going into today, but sometimes strong favourites lose. As Ireland did a few weeks ago. As England did today.

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

Hey. Obey the rules then miaow. Have a feeling the mods internal battle will see you side the ban that was promised...And one I asked to side step
You have get to set out the flaws of may. Still the best winger on show ...
Sod it. I'll get a ban before pointing out this hypocrisy.

Duty281 wrote:

miaow wrote:Yeah. Let's move this back to the game.

What a satisfying win! Not only were England looking very good in their last 4 performances, making this victory some achievement, but also the hype! Comments like this...

Duty281 wrote:Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

(nothing personal Duty!)

...are particularly satisfying. As I tried to say in the build-up this week, Wales have been close for the last 4 losses in the 6Ns. Only time they were pumped was 2014, and even then 1/2P kept the score respectable. For England to have a comfortable victory, or as some suggested just 'turn up' and play 7/10 (I'd call their performance 6.5-7 today tbh), it would have been going against the history books and indeed form. I do get English 'confidence' and, in some ways, it's not really your fault - you're conditioned to think England is the best (to a degree, certainly relative to the rest of the UK) and the media is very much pro-England when they win anything/string a few wins together. But I never, ever saw a comfortable win occurring - think I predicted 22-17 to Wales before the game, or 22-27 to England, so not far off?

Nonsense. I'm more than happy to say it when I think England will lose (like against Ireland or New Zealand) and equally happy to say it when I think England will win.

I don't think England were anywhere near a '7' today. They were around a 3 or 4. First half was about a 6/10 showing, just above average, but more than enough to keep Wales at bay, and had they continued like that, England would have won - but the second half was an abysmal 2/10 performance. As mentioned earlier, the worst half I've seen England play in some time - I'm glad Wales put them away after that dire second forty minutes, because no team deserves to win after such an abysmal display.

England were strong favourites going into today, but sometimes strong favourites lose. As Ireland did a few weeks ago. As England did today.

Wales’ first 40 was 1/10, for me. And then perhaps a 8/10 2nd half. Just enough to the win.

The default 'English arrogance' argument does annoy me tbh. I think England fans were rightly confident before the game given the first two performances of both teams but we don't always just expect to win.

I remember fully expecting to lose to Wales at HQ in 2012 - and we did!

You're drunk, Oracle. Wales did exactly what they needed to do in the first half - take the wheels off the English steam train. They did that and it seemed some pretty hefty work. Second half, Gatland knew England couldn't sustain the drive and slowly began the process of reeling them in.
It was always going to be a gamble and I think he knew in advance that he'd be lucky to come away with a very slim lead.... but then the bit of basketball magic.

EnglishReign wrote:The default 'English arrogance' argument does annoy me tbh. I think England fans were rightly confident before the game given the first two performances of both teams but we don't always just expect to win.

I remember fully expecting to lose to Wales at HQ in 2012 - and we did!

Has that been a common theme? I haven’t seen it. Genuinely.

Didn’t read the last couple of pages but Jones and Farrell had a stinker. Everyone on here knew we had to reduce the kicking and apparently they didn’t.

SecretFly wrote:You're drunk, Oracle.  Wales did exactly what they needed to do in the first half - take the wheels off the English steam train.  They did that and it seemed some pretty hefty work.  Second half, Gatland knew England couldn't sustain the drive and slowly began the process of reeling them in.
It was always going to be a gamble and I think he knew in advance that he'd be lucky to come away with a very slim lead.... but then the bit of basketball magic.

You’ve got far more confidence in Wales than me, Fly, if you think that was all planned by Wales and Warren G!

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

May is still one of the best wingers in the world, would probably get into a World XV. One game, in which he was hardly deficient, doesn't alter things.

The Oracle wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:The default 'English arrogance' argument does annoy me tbh. I think England fans were rightly confident before the game given the first two performances of both teams but we don't always just expect to win.

I remember fully expecting to lose to Wales at HQ in 2012 - and we did!

Has that been a common theme? I haven’t seen it. Genuinely.

Maybe not so much on this forum. I think part-time rugby fans probably expect more from the rugby team and give us a bad name, genuine fans are much more measured.

Yep, Gats planned to be still in the running by the second half... and his planning worked for him. He's not exactly a stranger to having plans that work out for him. Was it a sure fire plan? No. But it was obvious that the initial first half drive by England had to be stopped. Wales are a second half team. England, this season, have been a first half team. Clinging on and disrupting that first half was necessary to make England doubt themselves.

Anyway, you Welsh lads should be getting battered, don't mind us tonight

Duty281 wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

May is still one of the best wingers in the world, would probably get into a World XV. One game, in which he was hardly deficient, doesn't alter things.

Yes but he looked like an idiot. Who fist pumps to the crowd as if they scored a try when pulling a player into touch. I cracked up when I saw that. Its this unnecessary hyped intensity that clouds the ability to think clearly under pressure. Yes he did well but geez the over the top mental high is just not necessary. Let the crowd absorb the intensity and tension, and focus on your job, your skills.

Yeah but...no but...yeah but...we is emotional people up here in the cold North, Tman. Can't be containing our spleen to have the good manners to think about skills. That kind of stuff would be dangerous to our health.

Taylorman wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

May is still one of the best wingers in the world, would probably get into a World XV. One game, in which he was hardly deficient, doesn't alter things.

Yes but he looked like an idiot. Who fist pumps to the crowd as if they scored a try when pulling a player into touch. I cracked up when I saw that. Its this unnecessary hyped intensity that clouds the ability to think clearly under pressure. Yes he did well but geez the over the top mental high is just not necessary. Let the crowd absorb the intensity and tension, and focus on your job, your skills.

Lol. He's an eccentric bloke and was clearly pretty pumped. Let him be free.

That's a thousand years of kings and queens history in ghost fist pump

SecretFly wrote:Yep, Gats planned to be still in the running by the second half... and his planning worked for him.  He's not exactly a stranger to having plans that work out for him.  Was it a sure fire plan?  No.  But it was obvious that the initial first half drive by England had to be stopped.  Wales are a second half team.  England, this season, have been a first half team.  Clinging on and disrupting that first half was necessary to make England doubt themselves.

BBC showed a breakdown at one point about comparative scores after certain minutes and that made me know Wales would be big last twenty once we were still in touch with the English juggernaut.

SecretFly wrote:That's a thousand years of kings and queens history in ghost fist pump

Yes it felt like it too wish he’d focus more on the result though, ruined my 100% picks

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but...no but...yeah but...we is emotional people up here in the cold North, Tman.  Can't be containing our spleen to have the good manners to think about skills.  That kind of stuff would be dangerous to our health.

Yes its probably each to his own but its so counter productive. Imagine the difficulty it would be for May to learn in that same scenario to just return to position without any reaction at all ready for the next play. For his type, probably impossible. For ones game to require that much hype... no wonder they cant reach higher levels of individual skill levels more often. Theyre so busy being ‘pumped’.

Anyway, Wales are now officially the best side in the world.... even though Gats will protest. Pressure is all on them now to live up to the standards.

Heaf wrote:I'm not clear why Biggar doesn't start?

Gatland is saving him for the big games in the RWC

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but...no but...yeah but...we is emotional people up here in the cold North, Tman.  Can't be containing our spleen to have the good manners to think about skills.  That kind of stuff would be dangerous to our health.

Yes its probably each to his own but its so counter productive. Imagine the difficulty it would be for May to learn in that same scenario to just return to position without any reaction at all ready for the next play. For his type, probably impossible. For ones game to require that much hype... no wonder they cant reach higher levels of individual skill levels more often. Theyre so busy being ‘pumped’.

Personally think you're over-analysing it but it was a clearly one-off reaction anyway.

Well played Wales. It was a game that England had the ability to win but they appear to have a mental block when it comes to a team who drags them into an arm wrestle. I was concerned when we went in 7 up at half time. Well done Wales. A well deserved win.

So the English back 3 were strangely anonymous and soundly beaten by the Welsh back 3

Cory Hill smashed Billy V back for a superb try who was otherwise superb snatching 3-5 every carry and there were numerous. Manu is a poor facsimile of the guy we knew, Slade anonymous. English pack shot their bolt and Wales took it and to some extent handed it back with interest. Its not Genge who is the time bomb but Sinckler who is easily found out and provoked.

Courtney Lawes disgraceful attempt to interfere with flow of game instead of getting off pitch should be dealt with by panel! If he wanted to hang around that badly maybe he should have got into the line.

Tipuric was outstanding as were Owens and AWJ. Navidi a constant thorn at the breakdown, need more from Moriarty.

G Davies box kick is shocking, as is most of his kicking game so hurry up Webb.

North stepped up, Adams and Williams sublime today. Adams is some player with what 10 caps?

Welsh Lineout a disaster must do better for Scots let alone Irish. Scrum held its own.

Anscombe is a liability and I hope Patchell realizes that the opportunity is still there . He cant kick and should stop trying to do what Biggar does eyes closed.

Parkes is not an international get rid now and use Watkin until Scott W fit

And then Biggar. The guy is a general, class oozes from him and he knocked Farrell off his perch. His aerial game is incredible. While I get the tactic - use him last 3rd while game opens up, it is tough to watch us play catch up rugby every game however its in our DNA and we seem to be very very good at it.

With the likes of Faletau, Webb, Ellis Jenkins and Scott Williams to be worked back in I really believe this side is playing the most astute rugby I have seen in my lifetime from a Welsh team laying to strengths, even if it is in patches they stem opposition pressure and make few errors. They are hard to beat and playing smart rugby. GS is on but Ireland at home will be very very tight as they are a much smarter side than England despite losing to them.

Roll on the haggis.

England's hubris really caught up with them so I hope they use that long drive down the M4 to take stock.

Oh and Sonia McLaughlin....thanks for trying to protect Williams although you made a right Jeff of doing so

Just a few thoughts on the game itself. Want to get these out there while it's still fresh. To evoke the words of Gareth Thomas: "A rugby forum and we're talking about rugby!?"

https://youtu.be/FLyVfzpfbFw?t=251

Gatland, Edwards, and the Welsh boys thoroughly worked on England in the week and then beat them in both the brawn and brains department.

The things that stood out for me:

*SCRUMS*
England's scrum was underpowered. Sinckler got away with England's first 3 points by falling over. The only thing that got the penalty was driving angle - Sinckler's back was straight, Rob's arched. Arguably that's reason for a penalty but Sinckler buckled under pressure. Marginal call that England were lucky to get. From there on out it was all one way at scrum time - England only had one good drive second half and Wales still got the ball away, otherwise Wales were solid or dominant. The turnover where Tomos Francis split Ben Moon and popped Jamie George up to win the ball against the head was a massive moment. What a psychological thing to happen against England - to 'manshame' their pack on their own ball! Now, it wasn't decisive in the game, but quite clearly it set a precedent and helped hugely. The final try of course came from penalty advantage once Genge had replaced Moon and Launchbury had replaced Lawes. Was the 2nd row pairing of Lawes and Kruis too weak in the boilerhouse? Is Itoje integral at scrum time?

*ALED DAVIES*
As expected, he played the final 4 minutes and didn't let Wales down. From the scrum penalty mentioned above, he collected a difficult ball from between his legs, under pressure from an English player, found Biggar and then Biggar fed Adams who did the rest. Also tidy in the dying moments, albeit the game is done. Support our players

*THE COUNTER RUCK*
This is where Gatland/the coaches earn their money. Identifying isolated areas of the game where they can prosper against the opposition. Honestly, it's nothing revolutionary, but it worked. England's ruck defence/shield is quite compact - 2/3 players or so on the floor, followed by 2/3/4 bound on behind. They're obviously elongated to protect the ball at the base and this allows Youngs easy access and protection for the kik. It gives him the platform - instead, AWJ, Tipuric et al were refusing to let the ball die. By attacking the 'upright' ruck shields, the reverberations of their counter rucks were completely destabilising the ruck as a whole, the ball's position, and as a consequence Youngs. By and large it didn't rattle him too badly - only once did he choose to pick up and pass when shaping for a kick due to the counter ruck - but his kicking wasn't exemplary. It made England think twice and, instead, force Farrell into kicking more often - the deeper the kick, the deeper the chase. Ultimately, it worked in destabilising the base and therefore Youngs kicks weren't as effective. Such a simple tactic yet, when executed well, it can make all the difference.

*THE RETURN OF 2015 TACTICS*
- Related to the counter ruck is a defensive and offensive game Wales have employed against England for some time. Namely, harrying the kicker. Wales absolutely ruined George Ford and, to a lesser extent, Youngs in the first half of the 2015 6Ns fixture. England adapted second half but there were at least 2-3 influenced or charged down kicks from hand in the game if I recall correctly. Biggar scored a try from reading Ford in the '16 6Ns game.

2015 (one such example): https://youtu.be/L5lLj4PUeDY?t=3739
2016: https://youtu.be/RsrHRuyvhkM?t=172
(also somewhat related in terms of preparing pressure/reading the body language) 2017: https://youtu.be/cRtsx3nIGME?t=232

Today, early on, we saw a spot blitz from Gareth Davies, who forced Farrell back to the outside (was shaping for a crossfield bomb by the looks of it: at least, he made Farrell check the kick) and despite slipping, got back up and slammed into Farrell whose kick richoted off GD and over his head. Pressure on Farrell seemed to work generally as well - until finally Tipuric and two other players (can't remember who) read Farrell was shaping to kick, made themselves big/chased him down in midfield, and Farrell put the ball into touch. Another massive moment.

- The other 'old' tactic was the pick and go. Wales were outfought in the second-half of the 2015 game despite dominating the 1st. They were simply using one-out runners, as they had done for years, with Webb feeding the forwards who were smashed on or behind the gainline. England grew into the game and won as Wales refused to adapt. By the RWC, Wales adopted a very simple pick and go game - started it in the warm-ups and then saw England fail to deal with it. Not only was the fringe defence poor, and Wales made ground, but the related pressure brought infringements from England.

Prime example although I'm sure there are longer phases: https://youtu.be/nq3zOS5neJE?t=443

England were very good at coming out-to-in today and smashing the Welsh ball carriers. They did it to Ireland all game and it's where the dominant takle stat came from - stopping players behind the gainline. But Wales adapted - by sucking them in in the first half with pick and goes, not only did they edge yards, but they nullified England's 'dominant' tackles. Because you don't line-up your carrier for the defender - you simply carry at the time and speed you want, not having to brace yourself to be smashed. Honestly, I was surprised to see Warburton come out and criticise it at half-time, saying Wales should play it wide. Bit of tactical naivety from him? Did he not see England smash Wales from one-out passes and blitz them when they went wide? Is he still 'Gatland's man' and refusing to give away a tactical edge as a pundit...!?!?!?

Very, very simple yet, ultimately, these tactical tweakes won the game. Any England or Wales fan should have noticed these elements as they have been key in the fixtures for the last few years. Perhaps they stand out more for Welsh fans as, typically, these are not things Wales prioritise most games - they are conspicuous in the way they employ them against England.

*CORY HILL*
What a performance. Fair to say I misjudged his strength. He's deceptively strong - doesn't have the bulk of Jake Ball but that low centre of gravity appears to benefit him in the tackle. Two big tackles to bring down Billy V travelling at pace. One mistake in the lineout at the tail, think the ball was nicked in flight, and of course was impeded by Kruis at another, but by and large that went ok. First lineout where he dummied for AWJ to go up was poor - Kruis didn't move and knew what was coming. But what a performance. The angle he took for his try was gorgeous. Thoroughly deserved and you could tell he was delighted. Had to be carried off the field at the end. Nailed down that shirt next to AWJ now. No question.

On a general point, the regions need to sort themselvs out. Hill, Josh Adams, Halfpenny - all of them released by the regions for being deficient. Am I correct in thinking Hill was let go for being too small? Adams too slow? 1/2P too small? Need to start taking more of an Exeter approach - forget the raw stats like height and weight, look at them in a more holistic way. How can you let go players who then become stalwarts of the Welsh team? Discussion for another time...

*ENGLAND FAIL TO ADAPT & FARRELL'S CAPTAINCY*
Very obvious. Refused to play anything that wasn't quick or isolated - frankly, kicked too much. Didn't use Tuilagi nearly enough. They have the bigger players yet refused to make them carry into contact. Felt a bit fundamentalist at times - persisting with the territorial kicking game despite the momentum clearly going against them, with no sign of abating.

In relation, again I felt like we saw Farrell fail to show true captaincy qualities. There's so much pressure on the 10 to direct the play and be a leader as it is that to also be captain must be tricky. That said, he didn't play particularly well himself, and also couldn't direct his team to play any differently/adapt either. If your kicker is having an off day/not winning the kicking battle, then as a captain, maybe you say 'let's do this instead'. Farrell is always going to back himself to play his way out of trouble or make amends. It's admirable, but these are the kind of fine margins that make the difference. For me, from the outside, this is further proof that England need someone other that Hartley or Farrell as captain - both are great leaders and players but neither is quite there. Neither has the consummate professionalism and clarity with the ref of Warburton, nor the heart, desire and leading by example for 80 minutes, as well as maintaining a cool head and commanding respect of your time like AWJ. Neither are perfect captains but I do think England could do with a grinder like AWJ to lead the team - someone who will play for 80 and make the right decisions for the team, even though they themselves might not be the one executing the 'big' plays.

Also, EJ. Subs too late. Too late with Cockanasiga. Like Farrell, persisted too long with the status quo. Wales got the props off early and both were great - Nicky Smith counter rucking for fun, and Dillon Lewis using his mobile bulk in the carry. Both maintained and improved the scrum. Biggar obviously exemplary - the spiral kick from GD's charged down kick after the try was beautiful, if somewhat fluky. Not too much to say about Biggar, excellent player, excellent at what he brings. Wales' Farrell in many ways.

*ENGLAND FALL FOR THE WUMMING*
Was slightly amazed by this but this helped turn the game. The first one was Gareth Davies in the second-half. Bit of niggle at a ruck or something. Then, I think England gave away a penalty, or a scrum, and he rushes over to grab the ball off an England player. Obviously riles them up and results in a scuffle. Not long after, I think, there was the Sinckler issue (maybe?), then Sinckler and a few others crept offside for no reason. Then shortly after there was Tuilagi losing it with Liam Williams, and then the final Sinckler penalty before he was hooked off. The chronology of that might be wrong but basically it all seemed to happen in 5 minutes, around the 50 min mark until Sinckler was brought off. The crowd were suddenly in the game, the players fired up, and once again England lost their heads a fraction and Cardiff becomes a fortress. All related to the captaincy and leadership above.

*THE KICKING GAME IN GENERAL*
England won it in the first 25-30. Evens for the next 10-20 minutes. Then Wales dominated. Exposed Daly in the air a few times, including for Adams' try, and May as well. Also outjumped Nowell. More than that was the balshiness with which Wales said: "you like to kick? Have this." From the first minute they kicked at England, targeted their weaker aerial players as England did last year in Twickenham, and despite England's very good blocking runners from box-kicks, Wales ultimately started winning the aerial game. Partly, the bounce of the ball. Partly, the set-up around the knock back from the jumper: Wales have a very effective zonal semi-circle, or even full circle, around the English jumper to make sure the tap was contested or won by a Welsh player. Adams and Liam look natural jumpers: North has worked very hard at his aerial game and is vastly improved in that area. Welsh back 3 won the battle today over their opposite numbers. England's own kicking game looked stale and second-rate at times today: when it works, and May latches on to a long grubber, it looks great. But when it's percentage kick after percentage kick it begins to look like long ball football rather than a team apparently gunning for the All Blacks and a RWC. Amend the gameplan, however, and get England's power runners playing smarter, and no doubt England can employ such kicking more selectively and with more accuracy than they did today.

*WIDE WIDE, JOUE JOUE*
Warburton wanted Wales to go wide but honestly it wasn't that sort of game. What an arm wrestle. The danger for Wales to play wide, of course, was the fear of the blitz defence isolating a carrier behind support lines and/or winning a collision. Both result in turnovers and, more importantly, a loose game may have favoured England as much as Wales. Parkes showed his pace has faded pretty quickly (he was never the quickest but he wasn't that slow 18 months ago for the Scarlets!) and is not suitable to a loose game. Also, in the first half in particular, England were calm and composed. Henry Slade in particular looked like a huge threat and could have caused trouble - the comfort and confidence he had in standing up Anscombe in the first half, before charging down his chip before regathering and sprinting down field, showed a composure that Wales didn't have in the opening 40. It was very cagey because of England's physical power. Slade is a fine player and, like Tuilagi, underused by England today.

That said, Wales have it in the locker with Adams (in blistering form, what a player), North, JD2 and Liam Williams. There is still more to come from this Welsh attack. There's still more to come from Anscombe. Sadly, I think Anscombe looks a lot better in the 3rd or 4th phase of a wide move, when he's the second receiver in a lot more space, is running at less congested/organised defences, and has more oppotunity to run (his best attribute) than have to pass (good, but not as good as when he runs). Which is typically where you'd see a 12 or 15. But a discussion for another day...

*GENERAL WELSH RATINGS*
Liam got MOTM but, honestly, you could pick any number of Welsh players. Probably fair but I though Gareth Davies was really good, Navidi and Tipuric again magnificent, Moriarty fielded kick-offs well and carried quite a lot. All 4 props were great - Tom Francis in particular. One beautiful out-to-in smash on clubmate Harry Williams stood out. Clearly relished going up against Moon and he won that battle. Ken: cannolball-esque. Some lineout issues but not too sure they were his fault. Hill: above. Anscombe: did his part until Biggar came on. Parkes: solid but flawed. JD2: solid and not too involved, but defensively sound as always. Not sure any other replacement stood out. Didn't see enough of Dee. Beard made a nuisance at one maul. Not sure if Wainwright got on the pitch?

*NO WARBURTON, NO PARTY?*
Breakdown was pretty good from Wales. Much cleaner in general than England - penalty count reflects this, as it did last season, and as it should have done the season before (England were lucky the were allowed to kill as much ball in that game as they did). Off the top of my head, I can remember 1 penalty for holding on - I believe Liam Williams won it? There may have been 1 or 2 more but nothing stands out. A sign of how hard Wales had to tackle, how much Peyper allowed as a contest, and also how good Wales were at competing whilslt maintaining discipline. No stupid penalties meant no easy territory or points for England. But, sometimes, there is still a Warburton-shaped absence at ruck time. He really was the best in the NH. Big loss. However, I mentioned this is the 'who starts for Wales thread', I honestly think they're a more balanced and better team without him. I also think, generally, that applies to the whole team - the absence of superstars means fewer egos. The likes of Tipuric, North, Faletau, and Halfpenny are humble men by all accounts, unlike the Phillips', Powell's and Henson's of yesteryear. Whist Warburton was the polar opposite to the latter, I do believe they are better with AWJ as the elder statesman of the group and a 'natural' captain, for all Warburton's strengths as an on-field captain. I think there's genuine love between the players and having the likes of Hill, Ken, Parkes etc. - good guys and some players who perhaps didn't expect to play international rugby - shine within the team and become leaders who drive the values is another bonus.

*THE GATPLAN STRIKES AGAIN: WHAT IS YOUR WARRENBALL?*
Needless to say, Warrenball is nonsense. Ireland and England play far more negative/attritional/big-player-based rugby than Wales do and have done for years. Wales' game is based on possession and, once again, England couldn't disrupt Welsh ruck ball well enough to turn it over with any frequency. The control of the ball enabled Wales to ramp up the pressure on England, which in turn gave them field position and England started making mistakes, and Wales scored points. Disappointing to effectively 'give' England their points - a pretty dodgy scrum call, a lapse in defence, and a poor run and supporting clearout from a first phase scrum move (as well the Tipuric 'no arms' penalty that missed) - but Wales worked hard to get back to 9-10. From there it felt like it was Wales' to lose. England always pose a threat yet a combination of their own inflexibility and Welsh pressure meant England never really worked a try-scoring opportunity.

By contast, Wales scored two fantastic tries that saw the team peaking in the final quarter, as expected/usual! Cory Hill's try might be one of the most satisfying Welsh tries I've ever seen. Wales simply don't score tries like that. For years, we've seen Wales bottle try-scoring opportunities when grinding away on the opposition's line. Here, it looked like the chance had gone when they got driven back after about 25 phases. But, instead, they moved it wide, North utilised his raw power and pace to get to the outside, and Hill's angled line - what a finish. Likewise, the second try came from sustained pressure that saw Wales creep their way up the pitch. Beautiful rugby: beautiful Gatplan.

*ENGLAND STILL SIX NATIONS FAVOURITES?*
To me, yes. Wales are on 12 points, England 10, with a small Points Difference between the two. England have Italy and Scotland to come - a minimum of 5, a likelihood of 9 or 10, points. Wales have Scotland away and then Ireland at home. It's possible they lose both. I think Wales need to win the GS to win the title. Which is no small achievement.




What a game. I think that might go down as one of my favourite wins over England. Didn't have the drama and excitement of a 99, 05 or 08. Didn't have the quality of an 09, or 13. It had the guts of 15 and the comeback, too, but not quite the jeopardy nor the fraught fear of winning against the odds: no players hauled off injured, no scrum-half on the wing. Instead, this was deserved dominance rather than chancing their hand. Wales ground England down and then made them pay. And if it leads to a 6Ns title - or even a Grand Slam in Gatland's last season - it'll be a huge win indeed.

Miaow how do Eng get 9/10 its from last 2 games, isn't max they can get 8 i.e. 3 plus try BP?

And yes it was redolent of 15 with Biggar stamping another level of authority on it

No it's 4 for a win ...

Heaf wrote:No it's 4 for a win ...

oh gotcha

GS it must be then

England on 20 points by my calculations

Wales 23

Long day, my last thoughts and first thought at arriving at the principality stadium today was whilst looking at the match day rag, the blurb the stories, the nostalgia and then the teams, I remembered looking at the same in the same stadium in 2005.

But in 2005, for the first time in a decade, almost two, I read the teams and thought man for man more welsh players were better than their counterparts.

Today looking at the teams before the game I feared we only had a third of a team better than our opposition man for man.

By the end of this evenings game we were all proved wrong.

This is a good welsh team.

This is not the flashy team of the fifties sixties or seventies who had the guile and the skill to out witt. But as Gatland said, this is a really good bunch of lads that give their all for each other and their patriotic fans, and they strive to learn and improve every game.

Credit has definitely got to go to their captain most of all who was absolutely immense today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJMivTQFWr0

Whatever happened to Anscombe's boot??

EnglishReign wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but...no but...yeah but...we is emotional people up here in the cold North, Tman.  Can't be containing our spleen to have the good manners to think about skills.  That kind of stuff would be dangerous to our health.

Yes its probably each to his own but its so counter productive. Imagine the difficulty it would be for May to learn in that same scenario to just return to position without any reaction at all ready for the next play. For his type, probably impossible. For ones game to require that much hype... no wonder they cant reach higher levels of individual skill levels more often. Theyre so busy being ‘pumped’.

Personally think you're over-analysing it but it was a clearly one-off reaction anyway.

Possibly but it explains the sort of tension when particularly the home union sides get all pumped up for their matches. I get everyone does it but some buy into it far to much to the point that theyre in some sort of enraged state, when to be able to achieve in sport you need to have clarity, focus. All the emotion should end after the anthem, not carried into the contest in a way that its all consuming as some do.

Seen it many times with sides facing the ABs, sides get so pumped up they miss the parts where players are flying passed them, cause theyre to busy being macho, angry, or pumped. If the ABs went into every match like that when everyone wants to take their heads off, which is about every match, theyd be nervous wrecks by the end of the season, and wouldnt win most of the matches they do. Maybe thats changing and sides are getting smarter now but Mays cameo certainly isnt evidence of that.

Anyway, just an observation. ABs have problems of their own keeping up this year but in the past mental prep was certainly key to their ability to win difficult matches.

Taylorman wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

May is still one of the best wingers in the world, would probably get into a World XV. One game, in which he was hardly deficient, doesn't alter things.

Yes but he looked like an idiot. Who fist pumps to the crowd as if they scored a try when pulling a player into touch. I cracked up when I saw that. Its this unnecessary hyped intensity that clouds the ability to think clearly under pressure. Yes he did well but geez the over the top mental high is just not necessary. Let the crowd absorb the intensity and tension, and focus on your job, your skills.

Someone clearly doesnt understand the intensity and importance of the worlds greatest annual rugby championship.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup he was.still is. Suck it up collapse.  May be easier to wait for sexton to become amazing again next match.

Nothing to do with Sexton. Why you being so defensive? I said Biggar was the best 10 in the championship not Sexton. For me he is a better 10 than Farrell and definitely outshone him today while he was one the field.

EnglishReign wrote:I’d say Biggar is in the top 2 or 3 10s in the world at the moment. Can’t think of an area he struggles in? Nails every kick as well. Was genuinely worried about him starting and look what happened when he came on.

Agreed. There is no one better at catching their own up and inders too.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

May is still one of the best wingers in the world, would probably get into a World XV. One game, in which he was hardly deficient, doesn't alter things.

Yes but he looked like an idiot. Who fist pumps to the crowd as if they scored a try when pulling a player into touch. I cracked up when I saw that. Its this unnecessary hyped intensity that clouds the ability to think clearly under pressure. Yes he did well but geez the over the top mental high is just not necessary. Let the crowd absorb the intensity and tension, and focus on your job, your skills.

Someone clearly doesnt understand the intensity and importance of the worlds greatest annual rugby championship.

Yes well you will one day. Celebrating mediocrity isnt about intensity its about poor quality, which this game was, bar a single run from Tuilagi, and the final Welsh try by Williams. No creativity, no finding space, very poor kicking options and execution. Just plain old rah rah rah, Honestly, youll cheer grass growing if it suited your side. Where was the rugby?

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

miaow wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Wonder if May is still celebrating his tackle into touch?

He looked gutted at half time. Also saw North apologising to him. Did he go off injured? Or was that just for off the ball stuff?

Also, did anyone see him walk off after the anthem? As in, England's anthem, and had to be called back into the line for the Welsh anthem.

Definitely much improved but today showed - not a top class winger, clear deficiencies to his all-round game.

Based on one game? Eng weren't brilliant today but not sure what J May did wrong? He took every high ball, made his tackles and did brilliantly with the kick chase before Faz booted the ball away.

Think he was beaten in the air a few times. Think the point was more - yes, a much improved winger with some wonder tries to his name. A brilliant finisher but best winger in the world? No...you need an all round game for that as well as the exceptional finishing.

Yeah, I get that. Just unsure which aspect of an all round game he's lacking that other wingers possess.

May is still one of the best wingers in the world, would probably get into a World XV. One game, in which he was hardly deficient, doesn't alter things.

Yes but he looked like an idiot. Who fist pumps to the crowd as if they scored a try when pulling a player into touch. I cracked up when I saw that. Its this unnecessary hyped intensity that clouds the ability to think clearly under pressure. Yes he did well but geez the over the top mental high is just not necessary. Let the crowd absorb the intensity and tension, and focus on your job, your skills.

Someone clearly doesnt understand the intensity and importance of the worlds greatest annual rugby championship.

Yes well you will one day. Celebrating mediocrity isnt about intensity its about poor quality, which this game was, bar a single run from Tuilagi, and the final Welsh try by Williams. No creativity, no finding space, very poor kicking options and execution. Just plain old rah rah rah, Honestly, youll cheer grass growing if it suited your side. Where was the rugby?

Oh god hear we go, Kiwi who knows everything but nothing about NH rugby it seems because although he spends his days on here he isn't interested in it lol.

You won't find that atmosphere in any Kiwi stadium

That was one of the closest run arm wrestle's you'll ever see. Go watch it again you might learn something.

Apparently rugby - a game played ball in hand - is about kicking?

Actually why bother, you clearly can't see what a superb tactical joust it was - Wales pick and drive to combat English blitz.

Well for someone who doesnt know anything about nh rugby i seem to be doing better than you and most on the old pick em thing pie, though this result was something i didnt see, I guess everyone else did hih? Yeah Wales won well, it Englands inability to get just about anything right that was annoying.

Presently none of the nh sides are showing anywhere near the consistency needed for a world cup campaign. We were told england were the ones a year ago, then ireland, then england again. Now who is it? Wales, or France?

Hmm, i dont really thing the NH knows a lot about NH rugby either. They certainly dont know whos best. Good to see our Gatland get one over Eddie from next door though, I will give you that. Be great if wales come through and knock them both off too. Then we’ll have a bit of consistency once theyve played tougher sides. 12 straight huh? Nice if it brings them a title.

Also interesting how theres increasing regret with letting Cotter go...interesting. We were told Townsend is taking Scotland to levels Cotter couldnt. Odd, cant see it myself, doesnt surprise though. Any thoughts there Pie?

Hate losing to Wales but I'm not too perplexed about this one. I think it's a great game to have before the WC and gives EJ something to work on. There's going to be games were it's this tight and Plan A isn't working (It was working so so well), we need options.

In hindsight, the bench had to be utalised earlier and the tempo changed. We're also not quite as fit as we first thought, Wales looked much stronger in the last 20.

Bit like Ireland though, they had a plan A(only as well) that was also working so so well. Whats become clear is having only a plan A if anything is both predictable and something that will not likely win a World cup campaign. Simple question is...what do we do at forty minutes when plan A aint working? Havent seen the answer to that yet.