Wales v England - Matchday

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https://www.606v2.com/t68441-wales-v-england-thread-6-nations

The time is now!
The day is here!

LondonTiger wrote:ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

Well done Wales! Ive only seen highlights but it seems like you out thought and then out played us on the day.

England should have a few questions this week.

1. Why stick with the kicking game when it wasnt working?

2. Why use the bench so little? Just a few mins for the few that got on?

We've been burnt by going to the bench before quite early so perhaps in the back of his mind. Even though we didn't hit the heights of Ireland away we still looked pretty comfortable. I do think Genge would have been very useful to bring in at the same time as Williams but Moon was steady.
As a positive how good is Curry looking.

Looking back on the game, I think there could be a few citing's for some of the English players.

Was it Sinkler who was fish hooking a Welsh player ? I know he made a few late tackles.

I'd be surprised if there's any citing from that game. Nothing deserving of a red card.

Perhaps we should wait for miaow's frame-by-frame-in-depth-analysis of any possible infringements before we jump to any conclusions, guys.

LordDowlais wrote:Looking back on the game, I think there could be a few citing's for some of the English players.

Was it Sinkler who was fish hooking a Welsh player ? I know he made a few late tackles.

He made one tackle that was looked at - and the ref concluded (and said to AWJ) that he stood his ground - and one that should have been looked at because if they had it would have shown that the initial tackle was legal, and then AWJ milked it so hard that it mooed. But it was actually a very controlled performance for most of the game.

Gatland and his team played a bit of a blinder in the pre-match build up in effectively asking the ref to watch Kyle, and then in exploiting the opportunities on the pitch to put doubt in the ref's mind. It's telling that Sinckler being subbed was the point at which Wales began to take control of the match - he'd had an immense game to that point. England probably need a bit of a charm offensive to get officials' views of him into line with how he's actually playing today rather than the reputation he's had in the past. That goes for the whole

But overall it was a great game of rugby, and aside from the big handbags moment a very hard game but mostly a clean one. Both sets of fans can probably point to calls they think should have gone the other way, but it pretty much evens out in the end.

In the past Wales have often been able to pull out a couple of big performances only to stumble, but I have to say that they are looking as good as I have ever seen them. Ireland, even at home, won't be a pushover, but Wales are looking pretty good.

As for England, they were taught a timely lesson, which is that against a team with a proper fullback and a well-organised defence they have to vary their play much more to score tries. It was weird that they couldn't work this out before the game: Slade and Tuilagi were barely used, and instead Billy and Sinck were doing most of the work in attack, and when Sinck was subbed they didn't have an alternative plan. With a bit of luck they can work this out before the RWC.

Think I'm finally over the disappointment from Saturday. Firstly, congrats to Wales, it was a deserved victory and can't take anything away from you guys.

I'm really disappointed with our tactical approach. Even on here, most of us thought we would use the kicking game as an option rather than the be all and end all against Wales, recognising that they have a very strong full back and plenty of kicking options themselves. Even in the first half when we were ahead on the scoreboard, with every wasted kick I was shouting at the TV to look to play through the hands and just build a bit of momentum. Wales defended very well, but I still think that an extended period of building through the phases would have yielded results

We just looked like we were bereft of ideas, and that is not this team. I would have liked to have seen the forwards using Wales pick and go tactic against them, then the centres getting their hands on the ball and just try and cause problems rather than hoping Wales made mistakes fielding the kicks. The kick after May's kick chase and the one after Nowell intercepted a pass were just madness, and so frustrating to watch.

Positives for me were the defence in the first half with Lawes and Sinckler leading the way, and Curry's performance. Lawes just gets better and better, and its just a shame that their early efforts didn't lead to more points on the board. Curry is developing into a fine 7, think him and Underhill will be pushing each other on for years to come which can only be a good thing for us. He has such physicality to his game, its hard to believe he's only 20 years old.

Discipline was an issue for me, with our penalty count being far too high, especially offside on too many occasions. Its always going to be a risk with the line speed, but maybe we should have held for a second longer after the 3rd penalty. Sinckler didn't do anything that bad for me, one high tackle aside, but can see why others would disagree. I agree with Poorfour, once Sinck and Lawes went off we saw that 30 odd phase play from Wales, I think with those two around that would have been cut short far earlier

Yes but the other side usually forces indiscipline. That's they're role to an extent and that's what Wales forced in England. Frustration grew that the smoothness of the plan wasn't working this time and the discipline be an to corrode with it.

When Sinckler was taken off, surely Genge should have been brought on to replace Moon and give us another carrying option?

Hopefully the management and players will take this as a well received kick up the arse and ensure we actually utilise plan b (and before anyone claims there is not one, England have not just played in one style since the end of the last 6Ns). It is not a disaster to lose to Wales, especially in Cardiff. It would be appalling though if we do not learn the lesson.


Finally - what about Biggar. He was like a man possessed and despite only being on the pitch for a reduced time would have been my man of the match.

True LT, it feels very disappointing after the first two weeks of the tournament, but if you'd told me in January that we would play Ireland and Wales away and France at home and come out with 2 wins and a hard fought loss I would have taken it. I want to see a reaction from us in the next two games, we should be able to beat Italy comfortably but then we owe Scotland one from last season. They will also be disappointed with their performances so far, but those sneaky Scots would love nothing more than to pull our pants down on the final day

yappysnap wrote:

2. Why use the bench so little? Just a few mins for the few that got on?

yeah then we can get to criticising them for pre meditated changes on 50 minutes

I do think the questions about why they stuck so rigidly to a plan that wasnt working, and why Wales were able to work it out so comprehensively are quite valid and at the core of what England will be looking at.

Using kicking as a tool to unlocking defences is still likely to remain a key part of their attack. But it needs to be evenly balanced to avoid predictability, and to gain the maximum effect. If defences are expecting the kick use the pass or run, mix it up a bit. Theyve just shifted from one extreme to the other, it worked fine against a side with a makeshift backline and caught a bit cold by the sheer volume of kicking but Wales have had the benefit of being able to watch footage and build a defence to counter it as well as fielding players in comfortable positions.

England have a couple of lower pressure games coming up now, and still have a very good chance of taking the title. Maybe theres some tinkering that can be done with the first team

Did they choke? Its maybe a harsh way of describing it but they certainly didn't turn up in the way they would've wanted. Even with some poor execution and errors though the lack of a plan B doesnt seem to have helped. Its a balance between having the discipline not panic and sticking to the agreed way of doing things and having the flexibility to recognise when its just not going to work no matter how much patience they show. They did let themselves get a bit ragged and dragged into too much handbags and revenge hitting as well, is that a reaction to pressure and frustration? Quite possibly.

Bad day on the office for England, Wales are on a hell of a run now. Can beat anyone on their day etc. It was far from a shock result but England must be disappointed with their play.

Biggar is always a man possessed though. I think the master plan from Gats was keeping him off the starter list for such a big game. The man's hunger grew and grew from the cage of the bench. I find that when he starts the tiger can desert him with too long a duration...rather like poor Sean Cronin, the eternal Irish benchman

Well done Wales, that was a really good performance against an on form England side.

Liam Willams was world class at the back and Biggar really had a big impact when he came on but AWJ was my motm.

Gats pulled a bit of a master class on Eddie it has to be said, once Wales dealt with the kicks in behind England struggled to adapt.

Over all a great game and has really injected some life in the competition, although I do still think England will take the title, with the fixtures the have left I expect they will accumulate 9-10 points whereas Wales still have 2 very difficult games to play.

Admittedly not official, but a T-shirt has already been designed:

https://www.redbubble.com/people/woolofsky/works/36712726-wales-grand-slam-winners?p=t-shirt&style=mens&rbs=

LondonTiger wrote:Admittedly not official, but a T-shirt has already been designed:

https://www.redbubble.com/people/woolofsky/works/36712726-wales-grand-slam-winners?p=t-shirt&style=mens&rbs=

Not quite the Nike backed promotion of 2012 LT.

Wales as a team are unlikely to get ahead of themselves. Still got to beat the rampaging Scots and the second best team in the world who just got a bonus point against a team where we couldn’t

Oh dear. What team jinxed that the last time - Ireland?

Ah it's all a bit of fun really. I have a feeling if they get past Scotland, they'll go on and get the Slam. If they beat Scotland, they'll have the momentum and the closed roof - Joe will be too nice to say No and Ireland will want and need the toughest conditions possible to knock them out of the bloody slumber they're in

Jonathan Davies had a great game in defence. Didn’t miss a tackle and that made a big difference as Slade has been a huge attacking threat for England

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Admittedly not official, but a T-shirt has already been designed:

https://www.redbubble.com/people/woolofsky/works/36712726-wales-grand-slam-winners?p=t-shirt&style=mens&rbs=

Not quite the Nike backed promotion of 2012 LT.

Wales as a team are unlikely to get ahead of themselves. Still got to beat the rampaging Scots and the second best team in the world who just got a bonus point against a team where we couldn’t

As I said, not an official T-shirt, just a bit of fun.

I semi remember the Nike ad (must have been 2011 or 2013 though). While any such thing has to be done in advance, and other teams have done it too with no comment, allowing it to be leaked was pretty poor. Thing is quite often England do get held to higher standards. Similar thing happened re Queenstown in 2011 - no-one cared that Ireland took a break there and by all accounts drank way more, but England were pilloried in the UK (mainly Anglo) press.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd be surprised if there's any citing from that game. Nothing deserving of a red card.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/aubc2x/manu_tuilagi_throat_grab_on_liam_williams/

So Manu grabbing Liam around the throat is ok then....

That should have been Red, but ref bottled it...

Sinklers antics where just frustrations and no real issues, but he should have seen yellow for round neck tackle on AWJ, not because of the actual tackle (IMO), but because of the number of infringements in close succession.

Should Wales win the GS they will replace Ireland as second ranked team in the world.

Can't see that being a red No9 but we'll see soon enough.
I'd agree with Bams assessment earlier. Wales did a good job in getting in the refs head on Sinckler.

Only then? Thought they'd have accomplished that this weekend. Oh so a little breather for Ireland. They can recover a lot of needed confidence in the next two games IF they have the ability to go for it. 2nd in 6N and still 2nd in the world would be a very positive ending to a very bad 6N

No9 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd be surprised if there's any citing from that game. Nothing deserving of a red card.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/aubc2x/manu_tuilagi_throat_grab_on_liam_williams/

So Manu grabbing Liam around the throat is ok then....

That should have been Red, but ref bottled it...

If you say so. 

It was not OK by Manu, there was a lot more force and violence in Williams two interactions (including the one just before the shove) and the smile on his face showed he had achieved exactly what he had set out to. In that case Manu, and in general England, did let themselves down by reacting poorly to some concerted niggle by Wales. We completely failed a test of character.

There are a few reasons why Jones might not have brought the other England subs on earlier.

England led the game until the last ten minutes. Wales had much the better of that second half, but it's possible Jones wanted to see whether the players could solve the onfield problems themselves. We now know that they couldn't. It'll be up to the everyone to work out why that is, and if there's something they can do about it.

It's also been true in some England games against Wales that substitutions midway through the second half have given Wales impetus. It happened that way in 2015 and 2016, resulting in a loss and a close-run thing. Jones might have thought team cohesion, especially in defence, was a better way to combat a Welsh team with its tail up.

We saw against Ireland, that Jones was slow to bring on substitutes. After Kruis was swapped, and Itoje injured, no-one else got on except for the last three minutes. For whatever reason, he might be resisting using his bench.

Another possibility is that Jones doesn't trust his bench. This seems less likely since he's used several of the players before but you can't rule it out.

Personally, I'd like to have seen Robson in action but that's more because he hasn't had any game time, and it's hard to see how he can credibly be a second or third choice World Cup scrum-half unless he does. At least the Italian nine looks handy, so ought to provide a decent challenge should Robson finally get more of a run in that match.

Don’t think there’ll be any citing though, as it’s not been flagged by the Welsh team....I just think it should have been red there and then. Also, it doesn’t give the right message to youngsters...

Moriarty saw a red against Argentina in the summer in the 80th minute for a far less offence in my view...in that case he was trying to stop the Argentinian player from hitting him and grabbed him round the neck. In this case Manu was the aggressor and grabbed Liam round the throat. Far more aggressive and threatening....

It's not up to the Welsh (team)to decide whether it's red so I'm sure we'll get the same level of consistency from the citing officers as normal.

Luckily Williams isn't as sensitive a little sausage. They were both smiling while it was happening, although I think in Liam's case he was just hoping it would prevent a repeat of the Manu/Ashton incident

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not up to the Welsh to decide whether it's red so I'm sure we'll get the same level of consistency from the citing officers as normal.

Never said it was up to the Welsh team to decide, but that the Welsh team haven’t raised it, hence is unlikely to be cited.

BamBam wrote:Luckily Williams isn't as sensitive a little sausage. They were both smiling while it was happening, although I think in Liam's case he was just hoping it would prevent a repeat of the Manu/Ashton incident

Grow up will you.... you can’t grab a player by the throat, and should be punished if you do.

But as I’ve said, I don’t think it will be punished. It should have been RED at the time, and that’s all I’m pointing out.

The citing officer isn't doing their job then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The citing officer isn't doing their job then.

That may be the case...but you said it not me.

The incident this weekend is completely different to the one in the Argentina match because an official intervened and Mariarty refused to let go. They had no option but to give a red card. Displicable act by Moriarty no question.

Although this weekends games incident did seem light hearted to a degree, and as mentioned I am sure Liam was hoping Manu didn’t want to throw a punch, Manu should not hold a player by the neck in any circumstance.

It hasn’t been raised by Wales. But Manus loss of temper will cause issues in the future if it’s not addressed.

The ref asked the captains to deal with the situation and that was the end of it.

Surely there are degrees of 'intent' in these matters. It's a man's game and more importantly the men who choose to play want to be recognised as men. There are degrees of intensity to all skirmishes on the field. Refs ignore some reasonably, and some of the more violent ones they have to act on. Don't really recall seeing anything major in the Welsh English game. I've more than once held someone by the throats and thankfully on each occasion never meant them any real harm ..just a warning to back off. That's all it was on this occasion. It was a passionate game. If fans want to chase after players who gave such entertainment when it's clear there was no intention to throttle the player, then so be it.
I'd always be much more likely to be conscious of the real dangers to players who are hit with force and speed from behind off the ball. To me, that's violence. Holding someone by the neck for a few seconds to hint a warning is part of Rugby passions.

BamBam wrote:

No9 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Luckily Williams isn't as sensitive a little sausage . They were both smiling while it was happening, although I think in Liam's case he was just hoping it would prevent a repeat of the Manu/Ashton incident

Grow up will you.... you can’t grab a player by the throat, and should be punished if you do.

But as I’ve said, I don’t think it will be punished. It should have been RED at the time, and that’s all I’m pointing out.

Adding RANDOM capital LETTERS doesn't make your point any more valid, DONALD

And neither does your comment trivialising the incident. If a Welsh player had grabbed an English one by the throat you’d be calling for a lifetime ban...

Anyway, we won, you lost...end of story.

Ha. You said it without words No 9. I think there is a consistency issue particularly around high tackles but I'm sure the citing officer will see the tuilagi incident on review and decide it's not a red.

No9 wrote:

BamBam wrote:

No9 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Luckily Williams isn't as sensitive a little sausage. They were both smiling while it was happening, although I think in Liam's case he was just hoping it would prevent a repeat of the Manu/Ashton incident

Grow up will you.... you can’t grab a player by the throat, and should be punished if you do.

But as I’ve said, I don’t think it will be punished. It should have been RED at the time, and that’s all I’m pointing out.

Adding RANDOM capital LETTERS doesn't make your point any more valid, DONALD

And neither does your comment trivialising the incident. If a Welsh player had grabbed an English one by the throat you’d be calling for a lifetime ban...

Anyway, we won, you lost...end of story.

I trivialised you rather than the incident , I wouldn't be calling for a lifetime ban for a throat grab because I'm not a sensitive flower

Not that we have an issue yet, just a disagreement - but lets continue to keep this thread vaguely pleasant.

maestegmafia wrote:The incident this weekend is completely different to the one in the Argentina match because an official intervened and Mariarty refused to let go. They had no option but to give a red card. Displicable act by Moriarty no question.

Although this weekends games incident did seem light hearted to a degree, and as mentioned I am sure Liam was hoping Manu didn’t want to throw a punch, Manu should not hold a player by the neck in any circumstance.

It hasn’t been raised by Wales. But Manus loss of temper will cause issues in the future if it’s not addressed.

The ref asked the captains to deal with the situation and that was the end of it.

Wasn’t in anyway suggesting Moriarty shouldn’t have seen red, just saying that imo, it wasn’t as bad as this grab to the throat, yet this want penalised at all. I feel it should have been red as there is no excuse for grabbing the throat.

These are hero’s of the game, and kids will look up to them. This should not be seen as a valid way of standing your ground. I accept the emotion, and if he’d grabbed his shirt by the collar, no problem, just handbags...but the throat, is a no no, IMO.

I don’t want this to turn into a slanging match, or as LT have said, into anything more than a disagreement, so that’s my last word on it....

Heck of a win Wales, huge congratulations. Did exactly what was needed and did it well. I'm envious that Wales can so seamlessly change game plan mid way through a game! England had a great first half but a terrible second. Why oh why none of our coaches could see that the kicking game wasn't working is beyond me. We should have retained possession and gone through the phases.

Few observations from me:

- Farrell's decision making was poor
- Tom Curry was outstanding. Tackling all over the pitch, carrying hard, and 3(?) quality turnovers
- One of Sinckler's best performances in an England shirt
- Lawes was very good
- Don't ever kick away decent possession to the Welsh- that's how they start to get their tails up
- The Welsh backrow is very good
- England really struggle to get as emotionally-fired up as Wales
- No matter either team's form going into the match, a win at Principality is never, ever, ever close to being guaranteed. The place is an absolute fortress

LondonTiger wrote:Should Wales win the GS they will replace Ireland as second ranked team in the world.

That may be the case, but said it before. Wales have to win a Grand Slam, as if they lose one game, it will be England’s title, as cant see any other team making up the BP difference, considering the games they have to go, against England’s remaining games.

If Wales do lose a game now (or both) like England last year, we’re likely to go from top table spot to 5th, being the only team not to get a BP.

bluestonevedder wrote:Heck of a win Wales, huge congratulations. Did exactly what was needed and did it well. I'm envious that Wales can so seamlessly change game plan mid way through a game! England had a great first half but a terrible second. Why oh why none of our coaches could see that the kicking game wasn't working is beyond me. We should have retained possession and gone through the phases.

Few observations from me:

- Farrell's decision making was poor
- Tom Curry was outstanding. Tackling all over the pitch, carrying hard, and 3(?) quality turnovers
- One of Sinckler's best performances in an England shirt
- Lawes was very good
- Don't ever kick away decent possession to the Welsh- that's how they start to get their tails up
- The Welsh backrow is very good
- England really struggle to get as emotionally-fired up as Wales
- No matter either team's form going into the match, a win at Principality is never, ever, ever close to being guaranteed. The place is an absolute fortress

In parts, the kicking game was working pretty well for us. Problem was we kept on kicking as the first option from everywhere on the pitch and even when Wales were well set. As such we made it easy for Wales to counter and put pressure on our defence. 

While I agree that the decision making from Farrell was poor, Eddie seems happy with the approach as there were no tactical changes made. After May was knocked out during the build up to the first Welsh try, and replaced during teh conversion, I feel Ford should have come on as well as Cokanasiga to look at playing a passing game and using the big runners again. I certainly feel that Genge should have been on much earlier - in fact when Sinckler went off.

No9 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Should Wales win the GS they will replace Ireland as second ranked team in the world.

That may be the case, but said it before. Wales have to win a Grand Slam, as if they lose one game, it will be England’s title, as cant see any other team making up the BP difference, considering the games they have to go, against England’s remaining games.

If Wales do lose a game now (or both) like England last year, we’re likely to go from top table spot to 5th, being the only team not to get a BP.

Bearing in mind Scotland and Italy still have to England at Twickers I dont think its a stretch to suggest that even if Wales managed to loose their last two games without a BP they wouldnt end up 5th. France have to play Ireland away too so are pretty likely to end up on 3 losses even if they did beat Wales. Its a hell of a stretch to see Wales finishing lower than 3rd, and pretty unlikely they will lose either of the remaining games anyway.

If they do lose one it'll be "joint first" with England right

LondonTiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Heck of a win Wales, huge congratulations. Did exactly what was needed and did it well. I'm envious that Wales can so seamlessly change game plan mid way through a game! England had a great first half but a terrible second. Why oh why none of our coaches could see that the kicking game wasn't working is beyond me. We should have retained possession and gone through the phases.

Few observations from me:

- Farrell's decision making was poor
- Tom Curry was outstanding. Tackling all over the pitch, carrying hard, and 3(?) quality turnovers
- One of Sinckler's best performances in an England shirt
- Lawes was very good
- Don't ever kick away decent possession to the Welsh- that's how they start to get their tails up
- The Welsh backrow is very good
- England really struggle to get as emotionally-fired up as Wales
- No matter either team's form going into the match, a win at Principality is never, ever, ever close to being guaranteed. The place is an absolute fortress

In parts, the kicking game was working pretty well for us. Problem was we kept on kicking as the first option from everywhere on the pitch and even when Wales were well set. As such we made it easy for Wales to counter and put pressure on our defence. 

While I agree that the decision making from Farrell was poor, Eddie seems happy with the approach as there were no tactical changes made. After May was knocked out during the build up to the first Welsh try, and replaced during teh conversion, I feel Ford should have come on as well as Cokanasiga to look at playing a passing game and using the big runners again. I certainly feel that Genge should have been on much earlier - in fact when Sinckler went off.

Yeah I think its harsh to criticise Farrell for following an agreed gameplan and doing as he and the team had been asked. I'd agree with the argument (as above) that the kicking is only really going to work properly if they vary things and play a bit more heads up, but that needs to be the direction they are given not just someone refusing to do as they are directed.

I also agree that England had a plan B on the bench but Jones decided he didnt want to use it and continued to show faith in what Farrell and others were doing. It didnt work out, but dont think thats in any way going to mean he suddenly chucks out Farrell and kicking altogether. Its just a case of working on the subtleties of how this is going to work now teams are ready for it.

Gooseberry wrote:

No9 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Should Wales win the GS they will replace Ireland as second ranked team in the world.

That may be the case, but said it before. Wales have to win a Grand Slam, as if they lose one game, it will be England’s title, as cant see any other team making up the BP difference, considering the games they have to go, against England’s remaining games.

If Wales do lose a game now (or both) like England last year, we’re likely to go from top table spot to 5th, being the only team not to get a BP.

Bearing in mind Scotland and Italy still have to England at Twickers I dont think its a stretch to suggest that even if Wales managed to loose their last two games without a BP they wouldnt end up 5th. France have to play Ireland away too so are pretty likely to end up on 3 losses even if they did beat Wales. Its a hell of a stretch to see Wales finishing lower than 3rd, and pretty unlikely they will lose either of the remaining games anyway.

If they do lose one it'll be "joint first" with England right

Actually, you're right... Its a very tight run in for the final 2 weeks... Still think, if Wales don't win a Slam it will be England's title, but with these BPs it could be a tight run thing.

(and for the record, I can see Wales slipping up against Scotland in Murrayfield.. )

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Heck of a win Wales, huge congratulations. Did exactly what was needed and did it well. I'm envious that Wales can so seamlessly change game plan mid way through a game! England had a great first half but a terrible second. Why oh why none of our coaches could see that the kicking game wasn't working is beyond me. We should have retained possession and gone through the phases.

Few observations from me:

- Farrell's decision making was poor
- Tom Curry was outstanding. Tackling all over the pitch, carrying hard, and 3(?) quality turnovers
- One of Sinckler's best performances in an England shirt
- Lawes was very good
- Don't ever kick away decent possession to the Welsh- that's how they start to get their tails up
- The Welsh backrow is very good
- England really struggle to get as emotionally-fired up as Wales
- No matter either team's form going into the match, a win at Principality is never, ever, ever close to being guaranteed. The place is an absolute fortress

In parts, the kicking game was working pretty well for us. Problem was we kept on kicking as the first option from everywhere on the pitch and even when Wales were well set. As such we made it easy for Wales to counter and put pressure on our defence. 

While I agree that the decision making from Farrell was poor, Eddie seems happy with the approach as there were no tactical changes made. After May was knocked out during the build up to the first Welsh try, and replaced during teh conversion, I feel Ford should have come on as well as Cokanasiga to look at playing a passing game and using the big runners again. I certainly feel that Genge should have been on much earlier - in fact when Sinckler went off.

Yeah I think its harsh to criticise Farrell for following an agreed gameplan and doing as he and the team had been asked. I'd agree with the argument (as above) that  the kicking is only really going to work properly if they vary things and play a bit more heads up, but that needs to be the direction they are given not just someone refusing to do as they are directed.

I also agree that England had a plan B on the bench but Jones decided he didnt want to use it and continued to show faith in what Farrell and others were doing. It didnt work out, but dont think thats in any way going to mean he suddenly chucks out Farrell and kicking altogether. Its just a case of working on the subtleties of how this is going to work now teams are ready for it.

The kicking worked well for some parts, but it was the blind faith Farrell showed in forcing it at all times. Obviously a lot of the blame lies with Eddie because he should have had words at half time about varying our approach. Kicking seemed to be the immediate go to regardless of what options there were out wide. It was just a bit infuriating.

Totally agree regarding the bench options by the way. Once Sinckler went off we were desperate for an additional carrier and Billy seemed tired. Genge should have made an earlier appearance. I did think Harry Williams played exceptionally when he came on. His tackle on AWJ 5m or so from our line was superb, and reminded me of Warburton's try saver on Tuilagi a few years ago.

No9 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd be surprised if there's any citing from that game. Nothing deserving of a red card.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/aubc2x/manu_tuilagi_throat_grab_on_liam_williams/

So Manu grabbing Liam around the throat is ok then....

That should have been Red, but ref bottled it...

Sinklers antics where just frustrations and no real issues, but he should have seen yellow for round neck tackle on AWJ, not because of the actual tackle (IMO), but because of the number of infringements in close succession.

The tackle wasn't high. It was clear on replay that the initial point of contact was round the upper arm (not even over the shoulder), and it only became high as AWJ slipped down in the subsequent few seconds. Whether that was deliberate by either player is debatable, but what isn't debatable is the meal that AWJ made of it, and that Sinckler released him the moment he was told to by the ref.

The previous incident saw several Welsh players asking for a yellow, but the TMO told Peyper (correctly) that Sinckler didn't change his line, just stood his ground, and the penalty was kicked from the point of the previous infringement and not from where the ball landed (which would have been the case if Sinckler had been penalised).

Wales did a masterful job of getting in the ref's ear - to the point where England opted to remove one of their most effective players rather than risk further sanction - but the actual incidents were far less significant than people are making out.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've been burnt by going to the bench before quite early so perhaps in the back of his mind. Even though we didn't hit the heights of Ireland away we still looked pretty comfortable. I do think Genge would have been very useful to bring in at the same time as Williams but Moon was steady.
As a positive how good is Curry looking.

I think Moon was fine around 60 minutes, but he started to struggle after that. There was one time he took about 4 seconds to get off the ground after a tackle. Possibly a bit unlucky that the camera lingered on him, but I noticed he was slow back to his feet and back to the line. I said earlier in the thread that I'd have had Genge on earlier, but I don't think it would have made that much of a difference. Could have done I suppose.

SecretFly wrote:Surely there are degrees of 'intent' in these matters.  It's a man's game and more importantly the men who choose to play want to be recognised as men.  There are degrees of intensity to all skirmishes on the field.  Refs ignore some reasonably, and some of the more violent ones they have to act on.  Don't really recall seeing anything major in the Welsh English game.  I've more than once held someone by the throats and thankfully on each occasion never meant them any real harm ..just a warning to back off.  That's all it was on this occasion.  It was a passionate game.  If fans want to chase after players who gave such entertainment when it's clear there was no intention to throttle the player, then so be it.
I'd always be much more likely to be conscious of the real dangers to players who are hit with force and speed from behind off the ball.  To me, that's violence.  Holding someone by the neck for a few seconds to hint a warning is part of Rugby passions.

Yeah agreed.

"Grabbed by the throat" sounds bad in print, but doesn't offer any empathy to the situation as it actually occurred. Williams was trying to get in Manu's face and rile him up. Manu reacted badly, but he wasn't exactly trying to choke Williams out, just hold him at arms length. If the referee had given a penalty against him, I would have thought it was harsh, a bit silly, but ultimately could have had no complaints.

I think that's the crux of the matter. Wales riled England, made England make some poor decisions and then ensured the ref noticed. The Sinckler high tackle for instance, letter of the law that's high and a penalty - no complaints. But it started off as a legal tackle with Sinckler trying to hold Alun-Wyn Jones up, AWJ tried to get to the deck and Sinckler's arm slid up to the neck area. Sinckler should have let go at this point and potentially contested the ruck, but because he was riled and wanted to create the maul and therefore a turnover, he made a poor choice and held on. Alun-Wyn then pointed this out to the referee to make sure he noticed, and then dragged himself to ground with penalty advantage safely banked.

It was cleverly done by Wales, in this instance and a couple of others.

robbo277 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Surely there are degrees of 'intent' in these matters.  It's a man's game and more importantly the men who choose to play want to be recognised as men.  There are degrees of intensity to all skirmishes on the field.  Refs ignore some reasonably, and some of the more violent ones they have to act on.  Don't really recall seeing anything major in the Welsh English game.  I've more than once held someone by the throats and thankfully on each occasion never meant them any real harm ..just a warning to back off.  That's all it was on this occasion.  It was a passionate game.  If fans want to chase after players who gave such entertainment when it's clear there was no intention to throttle the player, then so be it.
I'd always be much more likely to be conscious of the real dangers to players who are hit with force and speed from behind off the ball.  To me, that's violence.  Holding someone by the neck for a few seconds to hint a warning is part of Rugby passions.

Yeah agreed.

"Grabbed by the throat" sounds bad in print, but doesn't offer any empathy to the situation as it actually occurred. Williams was trying to get in Manu's face and rile him up. Manu reacted badly, but he wasn't exactly trying to choke Williams out, just hold him at arms length. If the referee had given a penalty against him, I would have thought it was harsh, a bit silly, but ultimately could have had no complaints.

I think that's the crux of the matter. Wales riled England, made England make some poor decisions and then ensured the ref noticed. The Sinckler high tackle for instance, letter of the law that's high and a penalty - no complaints. But it started off as a legal tackle with Sinckler trying to hold Alun-Wyn Jones up, AWJ tried to get to the deck and Sinckler's arm slid up to the neck area. Sinckler should have let go at this point and potentially contested the ruck, but because he was riled and wanted to create the maul and therefore a turnover, he made a poor choice and held on. Alun-Wyn then pointed this out to the referee to make sure he noticed, and then dragged himself to ground with penalty advantage safely banked.

It was cleverly done by Wales, in this instance and a couple of others.

There is no reason in sport to grab someone by the throat. You can’t excuse it. This was mentioned several times earlier today and I think the point should be laid to rest.

Yeah I agree the throat is just off limits, has to be a citing. Optics if nothing else