Six Nations round 4 Scotland vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Sat, 9 Mar, 14:15
Murrayfield Stadium

Scotland.

Kinghorn, Seymour, Grigg, Graham, Horne, Russell, Price; Dell, McInally, Nel, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Strauss, Ritchie.

Reps: Brown, Reid, Berghan, Toolis, Watson, Laidlaw, Hastings, McGuigan



Wales.

Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Gareth Anscombe, Gareth Davies; Rob Evans., Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Adam Beard, Alun Wyn Jones; Josh Navidi, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Elliot Dee, Nicky Smith, Dillon Lewis, Jake Ball, Aaron Wainwright, Aled Davies, Dan Biggar, Owen Watkin.



Referee Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant Luke Pearce (England)
Assistant Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO Marius Jonker (South Africa)

Scotland v Wales is on BBC One

Scotland have made so many mistakes both forced and unforced. Wales are capable of more than they have shown today, frustrating that they rely so much on the defence when they can attack. Mind when the defence is allowed to be so far offside why would you not I guess.


PS England (and Ireland) have been similarly offside all tournament too before anyone claims ref blaming

Incredible Welsh defence. Not a great half, a lot of that to do with Scotland and the bounce of the ball (and the ref favouring Scotland at the rucks as they had possession), but incredible to hold them out in that final 15 minutes. Kept them out and then drove them back. Deserved win, but they need to control the game better and the lineout was costly.

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:Another price mistake - a winger wouldn't have been bundled into touch there

Even I can’t blame him there as it was a bit of a tough one for a player out of position.

The rest of his game though was utterly awful.

We need George Horne

Ali Price has done himself no favours in his quest to be the starting SH, showed all his old failings unfortunately, just not composed enough for international rugby

Pretty much the same story of Wales / Scotland games since 2003. Scotland can't live with Wales physicality, and can't break through the defence.

LondonTiger wrote:Scotland have made so many mistakes both forced and unforced. Wales are capable of more than they have shown today, frustrating that they rely so much on the defence when they can attack. Mind when the defence is allowed to be so far offside why would you not I guess.


PS England (and Ireland) have been similarly offside all tournament too before anyone claims ref blaming

Thought exactly the same watching Scotland’s rush defence today too!

The Oracle wrote:Wales certainly not looking like Grand Slam contenders!

No points for style. One more win and they have the slam and that is all that matters really.

You can see why the French are struggling internationally from their refs interpretation of the breakdown.

The Oracle wrote:Wales certainly not looking like Grand Slam contenders!

That's not what the results sheet is showing though!

The Oracle wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Scotland have made so many mistakes both forced and unforced. Wales are capable of more than they have shown today, frustrating that they rely so much on the defence when they can attack. Mind when the defence is allowed to be so far offside why would you not I guess.


PS England (and Ireland) have been similarly offside all tournament too before anyone claims ref blaming

Thought exactly the same watching Scotland’s rush defence today too!

I thought at times Scotland were surprisingly slow to rush. Allowing Gareth Davies to take a step before starting. But yes when they rushed well it was usually offside.

Congrats Wales, great first half and did the small things well. Awesome defence as well, as always! Good luck against Ireland

God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

BigGee wrote:God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

Recall for Gavin Hastings?

BigGee wrote:God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

Our back 3 in particular is decimated

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

Our back 3 in particular is decimated

Could easily see Hastings starting at FB next week, he actually had a really good game. That was one of the positives, he does look international class, unlike a few other of our players out there today.

He has got to do something different in the centres, neither of them look up to the mark, just could not break the line

BigGee wrote:

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

Our back 3 in particular is decimated

Could easily see Hastings starting at FB next week, he actually had a really good game. That was one of the positives, he does look international class, unlike a few other of our players out there today.

He has got to do something different in the centres, neither of them look up to the mark, just could not break the line

I barely noticed Horne was playing.

It's not like we've got many options!

BigGee wrote:

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

Our back 3 in particular is decimated

Could easily see Hastings starting at FB next week, he actually had a really good game. That was one of the positives, he does look international class, unlike a few other of our players out there today.

He has got to do something different in the centres, neither of them look up to the mark, just could not break the line

Recalls for Gavin and Scott then

LondonTiger wrote:

BigGee wrote:God knows what kind of a team we are going to get out next weekend, that was another punishing game

Recall for Gavin Hastings?

Gavin and Scott!

Being serious, you cannot go to Twickenham with Horne and Grigg.

Lets hope Liam Williams injury was only a stinger or we may have to ask Cuthbert to come back!

What a game. Scotland looked like onlookers in the first half such was the cruising dominance of such a slick and calm Welsh side.

Then the second half. Many will say Wales played second best in the second half and Scotland finally came alive and gave Wales a real scare. Maybe they did but I have to say, I didn't see it. I saw a Wales even better in the second half as dogged defenders.
So Wales showed us the whole deal of their ability and it all looks focused and comfortable. To hell with the score line. Yes, a bit of luck in attack and Scotland would have had the try they needed to make a real white knuckle ride. But it's Wales that were closing down the 'luck' channels with their drive to get back up and find the next target.
For me the most accomplished all round performance of this championship so far, and despite the hectic tempo, they always looked comfortable in defence as much as 2nd gear attack.
Scotland didn't help themselves by accepting their lot so easily in the first half.... and the crowd too - felt they let down their players in that half. There was so much silence that you could hear all the hits like they were in the room with you.

I hope LW is not out - one of my favourite Welsh players to watch.

Watson and Dell and the whole Scottish pack did a great job today at least. Sure a few of them will be in the team of the week.

The only thing I think everyone can agree on is next week we need Maggy at 8 with Watson and Ritchie on the flanks. Both were outstanding and we need them on the park

Strauss was again rather ineffective

Having just listened to Gregor's interview I'm concerned the man may be slightly deluded, he seems to think we played a lot better than we did

They say Ireland has been found out. Maybe they have. But teams are looking at all sides as they move forward and try to neutralise them. So yes, maybe Townsend has been found out this year - early in an important year. It seems the only hope Scotland have is in this high tempo erratic game. When they try to be meaty and slow , which I say is an important ability, it just isn't them and they have to fall back on upping the tempo and hoping for some offloading cheek to get them through.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Having just listened to Gregor's interview I'm concerned the man may be slightly deluded, he seems to think we played a lot better than we did

Always difficult for a losing coach, he can't say out loud what he really thinks!

We are stuck with Toonie for the moment, the injury situation really has not helped him this tournament. Probably need to judge him a bit more critically after the WC.

tigertattie wrote:The only thing I think everyone can agree on is next week we need Maggy at 8 with Watson and Ritchie on the flanks. Both were outstanding and we need them on the park

Strauss was again rather ineffective

He hasn’t set the heather alight but he’s done his job well. He’s not the 8 for Scotland going forwards. Blade Thomson, Bradbury or one of the younger guys will be probably, but some credit has to go to Strauss today, he didn’t make any mistakes and carried well, don’t think it’s fair to say he was ineffective.

Wales Unbelievable defensive effort.

Jeremy Guscott

As he showed in Paris, thought Hastings looked great. With Horne on the field as well that seemed to make a big difference in the second-half. When Russell's the sole creator he can make poor decisions - crossfield dink in the first half on his 22 having barely had the ball, for instance, was both a poor call and terribly executed. With Hastings they look better, and he's a tidy elusive runner who looks to keep the ball alive. Good player coming off the bench but is there room for him in the first XV?

Much better second half by Scotland. Can't make headway when the game slows down in the phaseplay though - one of those final moves went from 10m out to about 30m out in 10-15 or so phases. Have to find a middle ground between trying to score early/off the first few phases every time, and getting stuck in pick and goes where you're not that physical. When they did try to inject pace in it, some passes tended to find grass/the touchline rather than hands. Accuracy issue? Composure? Tactical/situation preparation?

Little Darcy looked a tidy player. Unlucky to have him go off, as with the other players like Seymour etc. Can't have helped. Watson immense in the carry, made a huge difference and he was the only player Wales looked worried about in the tight - players actively trying to just not get bumped off/miss the tackle, rather than go for any sort of dominance.

Promising signs for Scotland but the first half was really poor. Not convinced by Price - as someone mentioned, the team looks better with Laidlaw and always has, despite his ponderous nature. Even players like Grigg looked good because of low centre of gravity into contact etc., but that works against them when in defence. Possession was key in this game and the ref definitely made a few harsh calls on Wales at the breakdown in that second-half.

Not sure Wales really touched the ball in anything other than a clearing capacity after the 46th minute until those last 3 minutes and, if they had managed to get some territory and possession after that first try (think Scotland held it from the 46-58 minutes), not sure the game would have been as difficult for Wales. Think they had that one move that came from Parkes hacking the ball on, Adams knocking on with the tryline begging, and then Ball having the ball fired at his face and knocking on not long after. Should have scored in that move though. Didn't see if Ball butchered it by taking it into contact but, by and large, running hard and straight isn't a bad decision in those situations - NH teams go too lateral and it looked like Scotland might drift onto the Wales players. Sure we'll see on the analysis if it should have gone wide. A try there, though, and it probably kills the game.

No good talking about ifs and buts - Wales switched off second half and didn't do enough to control the game with the ball, their biggest strength along with their defence, which you can't rely on for almost 30 consecutive minutes against Ireland without being punished several times. If a few more passes had gone to hand from Scotland - if Hastings etc. had found a supporting runner when making a half break/when tackled on the floor - then Wales would have lost the lead. Credit DEFINITELY goes to Wales' scramble defence for a. shutting down Hastings and Russell for the most part and b. running great blocking lines to stop/cover the supporting runner but, as expected, the game wasn't over at half-time and it felt like, collectively in attack, Wales retreat in trying to hold out through defence again. Not good enough in a RWC year - that doesn't work against Ireland etc. and certainly not against Australia.

But not good enough from Wales. Big example of how important a specialist 15 is in the side when Anscombe went to 15 - caught out short from a Russell grubber midway through the half, and then lucky to get tackled by Price off the ball because he didn't cover the ball again. Not sure anyone had a poor game though, bar Aled Davies' cameo - although he did land a great kick on Price just after which led to the final penalty and the end of the game, and looked good in defence.

Not the best game of rugby but not the worst. I've give it a 6/10. If Scotland had more frontline players in that second half it could very easily have been a repeat of 2017. Think that's a wake up call for where Wales are at the moment. Could do with England and Ireland losing this weekend ( :shock ), Wales winning the title by default, and then focusing on some hard work in the summer because there is still a lot more to come from this team. They're not close to hitting their potential. Same goes for Scotland.

bsando wrote:

tigertattie wrote:The only thing I think everyone can agree on is next week we need Maggy at 8 with Watson and Ritchie on the flanks. Both were outstanding and we need them on the park

Strauss was again rather ineffective

He hasn’t set the heather alight but he’s done his job well. He’s not the 8 for Scotland going forwards. Blade Thomson, Bradbury or one of the younger guys will be probably, but some credit has to go to Strauss today, he didn’t make any mistakes and carried well, don’t think it’s fair to say he was ineffective.

Tend to agree, he carried hard and defended well. Unfortunately there are just better No.8s in world rugby just now. The Josh Strauss of 4 or 5 years ago is not quite there anymore, but he did as well as he could.

BigGee wrote:Always difficult for a losing coach, he can't say out loud what he really thinks!

We are stuck with Toonie for the moment, the injury situation really has not helped him this tournament. Probably need to judge him a bit more critically after the WC.

I'm absolutely not calling for his head, the SRU made their decision and there is no sense in going back on it now. I do however think that it is time the idea of Toonie being considered as something of a coaching innovator is put to bed. Injuries or not we have spent almost all of this tournament looking very short on ideas, and mostly just playing into our oppositions hands. Barring one nice first phase move (with a cheeky forward pass) we just didn't look like actually managing to cross the try line today. Maybe time to focus a bit more on some of the basics that seem to be getting lost since we changed coaches

The moderation seriously has to be questioned on this forum. First we see the English drove in here and almost ruin it, and the mods speak to the wrong people when they bring it up. I just had an on topic comment removed on the prediction thread while Yoda's antagonistic post insulting the welsh is still there. Why?

jimbopip wrote:Wales Unbelievable defensive effort.

Jeremy Guscott

Yes he certainly is a prize plonker!

Jim, guscott is a buffoon but his point to Nicol was spot on. If we want to improve as a team and a nation, we need to look at the second half as an opportunity to win wasted. If we continue to applaud these “heroic defeats” we’ll get nowhere

What did Guscott do/say?

I’d also like to applaud the majority of posters and the mod team for keeping things in here the right spirit.

Rugby is an emotive affair for many. Disappointment and conflicting views can set you down the wrong path but as long as we keep things from getting personal it’s all good.

mikey_dragon wrote:The moderation seriously has to be questioned on this forum. First we see the English drove in here and almost ruin it, and the mods speak to the wrong people when they bring it up. I just had an on topic comment removed on the prediction thread while Yoda's antagonistic post insulting the welsh is still there. Why?

Mikey,
Why can't you just enjoy the thread?

It was a good game, Wales won and the discussion about it was pretty good as well. No-one is going to like everything other posters say, but you and everyone else does have the option of ignoring things you don't like, that is generally the best tactic and other posters certainly appreciate when people don't rise to every perceived insult, a lot of which will merely be differences in opinion in any case.

Nothing on this thread was at all offensive compared to any discussion that would have taken place amongst a bunch of different supporters in a pub watching the game.

This is a forum where posters of different nationalities come together to discuss games, there are always going to be different opinions.

I go back to my original question

Why can't you just enjoy the thread?

tigertattie wrote:Jim, guscott is a buffoon but his point to Nicol was spot on. If we want to improve as a team and a nation, we need to look at the second half as an opportunity to win wasted. If we continue to applaud these “heroic defeats” we’ll get nowhere

I agree with you Tattie, but unfortunately he takes way to much pleasure in pointing it out!

tigertattie wrote:Jim, guscott is a buffoon but his point to Nicol was spot on. If we want to improve as a team and a nation, we need to look at the second half as an opportunity to win wasted. If we continue to applaud these “heroic defeats” we’ll get nowhere

Agree with the main sentiment here: nothing to applaud in "heroic defeat". We could have won today. We should have scored more points. In the past I have tended to view Guscott's critics as being motivated by narrow minded anti-English sentiment, But today his whole "tone" was dismissive and condescending, it fair scunnered me.

Tiger, Furra Linee was pretty anonymous, Grigg just about got pass marks.

Johnson at 12 next week and the Nipponese-Gaelic lad Fuktifano at 13.

BigGee wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:The moderation seriously has to be questioned on this forum. First we see the English drove in here and almost ruin it, and the mods speak to the wrong people when they bring it up. I just had an on topic comment removed on the prediction thread while Yoda's antagonistic post insulting the welsh is still there. Why?

Mikey,
Why can't you just enjoy the thread?

It was a good game, Wales won and the discussion about it was pretty good as well. No-one is going to like everything other posters say, but you and everyone else does have the option of ignoring things you don't like, that is generally the best tactic and other posters certainly appreciate when people don't rise to every perceived insult, a lot of which will merely be differences in opinion in any case.

Nothing on this thread was at all offensive compared to any discussion that would have taken place amongst a bunch of different supporters in a pub watching the game.

This is a forum where posters of different nationalities come together to discuss games, there are always going to be different opinions.

I go back to my original question

Why can't you just enjoy the thread?

Completely agree Biggee - this has been a really good thread with good rugby debate on both sides and from the neutrals. Questioning a refereeing decision doesn't make someone anti-welsh (reffing debates are 50% of the posts on here in any game!)

From the neutrals who weren't ref-blaming....

Looks like Scotland picked up a few more injuries sadly, and at that point I thought they'd capitulate but it really galvanized them. Scotland managed to hold onto possession for longer periods of play and raised the bar, we struggled and it looked like they could win. Wales really don't help themselves with this defend at all costs tactics; SA nearly breached it, Scotland nearly breach it twice this season.

This goes back a point I raised recently about Scotland having just two teams, a point laughed at by someone - they can't develop more depth and whilst they have some strength in depth they don't have enough to cope with international rugby where injuries are commonplace. There hasn't been much consistency in their play in this tournament and I think it's down to the disruption caused by picking up injuries. Nothing but pride to play for next week and then to look forward towards the world cup; continue to play at that high intensity for a longer period and you'll challenge England, possibly turn them over. Never say never .

This might sound stupid in a way it's a good thing we're going to Twickenham next week - there will be zero expectation on the team (is negative expectation a thing?) and that should give us freedom to go out and play. I can see it being a high scoring game - 40-25 or something like that.

Can you imagine if we had Italy next week? The wooden spoon would be getting dressed up in navy blue ribbons as we speak.

RDW wrote:This might sound stupid in a way it's a good thing we're going to Twickenham next week - there will be zero expectation on the team (is negative expectation a thing?) and that should give us freedom to go out and play. I can see it being a high scoring game - 40-25 or something like that.

Can you imagine if we had Italy next week? The wooden spoon would be getting dressed up in navy blue ribbons as we speak.

I'm really struggling to see where 25 points will come from at Twickers! Unless we are able to somehow get some international class centres back into the side

jimbopip wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Jim, guscott is a buffoon but his point to Nicol was spot on. If we want to improve as a team and a nation, we need to look at the second half as an opportunity to win wasted. If we continue to applaud these “heroic defeats” we’ll get nowhere

Agree with the main sentiment here: nothing to applaud in "heroic defeat". We could have won today. We should have scored more points. In the past I have tended to view Guscott's critics as being motivated by narrow minded anti-English sentiment, But today his whole "tone" was dismissive and condescending, it fair scunnered me.

Tiger, Furra Linee was pretty anonymous, Grigg just about got pass marks.

Johnson at 12 next week and the Nipponese-Gaelic lad Fuktifano at 13.

Oh yes, he’s a condescending know-it-all

For the centres, now this is almost Toonie-esque, but I’d put Sam at 13 with Russell at 12 and Hastings at 10. George Horne at 9 if he’s fit.

If we’re going to lose, might as well go full metal jacket I say.

I thought he meant England 25 - 40 Scotland?

Have to admit that I spent from the 68th minute onwards watching the game peering round the corner into the living room from the hallway! Really struggle with nerves for the rugby, and can’t handle it when it’s close. Feel absolutely drained now!

I would not laugh at the suggestion of Scotland having more than two teams, but I also know that it just is not financially viable for us, nor is ever likely to be. Two teams is probably our level and our priority is to resource them properly and get them playing well.

Despite our injuries this season, which have effected us though I don't want to use that as an excuse, we probably have better depth than we have ever had in the history of professional rugby. That is largely because we have two team playing well and we are finally starting to develop some good young players.

Injuries are not the only reasons we lost today and the Ireland and French games as well, tactics and execution have been poor as well as well as an inability to play full throttle in more than fits and starts.

I hope we change up a few more players next weekend, we will be forced to in some cases and give it a lash. I can't see us winning though, a decent performance will have to suffice this time around.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

RDW wrote:This might sound stupid in a way it's a good thing we're going to Twickenham next week - there will be zero expectation on the team (is negative expectation a thing?) and that should give us freedom to go out and play. I can see it being a high scoring game - 40-25 or something like that.

Can you imagine if we had Italy next week? The wooden spoon would be getting dressed up in navy blue ribbons as we speak.

I'm really struggling to see where 25 points will come from at Twickers! Unless we are able to somehow get some international class centres back into the side

We'll be 40-11 down with 10 minutes to go, england having spurned 4 other chances, and half the England team will be in the showers celebrating a job well done. Two late consolation tries which Townsend will say shows that we have great character and shows exactly the kind of rugby we want to play

The Oracle wrote:Have to admit that I spent from the 68th minute onwards watching the game peering round the corner into the living room from the hallway! Really struggle with nerves for the rugby, and can’t handle it when it’s close. Feel absolutely drained now!

You’re lucky. Us Scottish fans watch entire games like that

RDW wrote:This might sound stupid in a way it's a good thing we're going to Twickenham next week - there will be zero expectation on the team (is negative expectation a thing?) and that should give us freedom to go out and play. I can see it being a high scoring game - 40-25 or something like that.

Can you imagine if we had Italy next week? The wooden spoon would be getting dressed up in navy blue ribbons as we speak.

Italy are getting murdered by England atm and the Italian bodies are pilling up on the touchline. They would be struggling to put out a team next weekend as well!