Six Nations round 4 Scotland vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Sat, 9 Mar, 14:15
Murrayfield Stadium

Scotland.

Kinghorn, Seymour, Grigg, Graham, Horne, Russell, Price; Dell, McInally, Nel, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Strauss, Ritchie.

Reps: Brown, Reid, Berghan, Toolis, Watson, Laidlaw, Hastings, McGuigan



Wales.

Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Gareth Anscombe, Gareth Davies; Rob Evans., Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Adam Beard, Alun Wyn Jones; Josh Navidi, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Elliot Dee, Nicky Smith, Dillon Lewis, Jake Ball, Aaron Wainwright, Aled Davies, Dan Biggar, Owen Watkin.



Referee Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant Luke Pearce (England)
Assistant Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO Marius Jonker (South Africa)

Scotland v Wales is on BBC One

RDW wrote:
We'll be 40-11 down with 10 minutes to go, england having spurned 4 other chances, and half the England team will be in the showers celebrating a job well done. Two late consolation tries which Townsend will say shows that we have great character and shows exactly the kind of rugby we want to play

Still seems a little optimistic to me, even against the 7 1/2 English players that are still out on the pitch!

tigertattie wrote:

For the centres, now this is almost Toonie-esque, but I’d put Sam at 13 with Russell at 12 and Hastings at 10. George Horne at 9 if he’s fit.

If we’re going to lose, might as well go full metal jacket I say.

We will likely need AH at full back!

Worth saying Townsend probably got the big selection calls wrong again - Price was mince, Horne did nothing compared to SJ's performances, Watson showed that he should have been on for the start. You just don't put one of your best players on the bench.

RDW wrote:Worth saying Townsend probably got the big selection calls wrong again - Price was mince, Horne did nothing compared to SJ's performances, Watson showed that he should have been on for the start. You just don't put one of your best players on the bench.

To be fair, pretty much everyone was happy with Price starting, he has looked good off the bench and he had to try him out. I am not sure he will get another crack though.

Watson should have started though and dropping SJ was the wrong call though and he should probably been braver at OC and gone for Stafford of McDowell.

It seems strange that at international level Toonie seems to have become a more conservative selector that he never was when with Glasgow.

Ok ok ok. How about

G Horne
Meatball
Darcy
Russell
Mcdowell
Ritchie V
Hastings

Now that would be nutty professor stuff

tigertattie wrote:Ok ok ok. How about

G Horne
Meatball
Darcy
Russell
Mcdowell
Ritchie V
Hastings

Now that would be nutty professor stuff

Would that be Gavin or Adam Hastings?

Just watched the Scottish Press conference:

Toonie clearly very narked about the reffing and felt that Wales should have been carded for the penalties they gave away in their own 22 during the second half.

On another day, with another ref, that may have happened, but not today.

Even as a Scotland fan though, I can't say that is why we lost the game. We had our chances, whatever the reffing situation was and just did not take them.

Yeah I would agree that he's focussing on the wrong thing. Nichol had it right when he said there wasn't a point where anyone thought 'that should be a card', mainly because whenever we got a penalty we then messed up the next phase / were turned over, reliving all pressure.

A prime example being where we had a well set up maul and received a penalty. If we'd done that again it would have been a high chance of a try, and if not then probably a yellow and/or PT. Instead we lost all concentration and were driven back 10m as soon as we hit the ground. That's not the ref's fault.

We could say the same thing about every kick to the corner that came from a Welsh penalty in their 22 - we didn't excert the concerted pressure that would have forced the ref's hand.

Also, has John Beattie completely lost the plot?

https://twitter.com/BBCJohnBeattie/status/1104409508774842368?s=19

Can't say I was overly enamoured with the ref but I'm not sure he was against us any more so than he was Wales. Wales were phenomenal in the first half and we were really poor. In the second half they were worse than I've seen from them in a very long time. I do think we would have put a few tries on them in the Second half if we'd had Hogg, Jones and the rest of our more exciting players.
Grigg and Horne are quite blunt, Hastings was very, very good. I'd be tempted to see if we could get both him and Russell in the fifteen for next week, although it might be entirely necessary the way our boys are dropping like flies currently. Graham played better for us today than Seymour has done in years. Looking toward the world cup I think Hogg, Maitland and Graham are a more balanced unit. I thought Price played well until he ended up at the wing where he was pretty special and not in a good way but you can hardly blame him for that. I'd be very keen to have Horne, Russell, Maitland, Johnson, Jones, Graham and Hogg as our backline come September.
It makes a huge difference having Nel and Watson in our back. Bradbury looks to be our best bet at eight going forward, with Barclay, Ritchie and Watson battling it out to be on the flanks. There were points today when I felt like it was ten years ago. Aimless possession, occasional excitement when we're near the line but no end product. However it was a step up on the performances against Ireland and France. We have special players to come back and we seem to have recovered our backbone.

RDW wrote:Also, has John Beattie completely lost the plot?

https://twitter.com/BBCJohnBeattie/status/1104409508774842368?s=19

Can I have some of what he’s smoking?

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:Also, has John Beattie completely lost the plot?

https://twitter.com/BBCJohnBeattie/status/1104409508774842368?s=19

Can I have some of what he’s smoking?

Read the responses to this tweet, not a single person agrees with him!

Age and to many knocks to the head catching up with him I think!

BigGee wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:Also, has John Beattie completely lost the plot?

https://twitter.com/BBCJohnBeattie/status/1104409508774842368?s=19

Can I have some of what he’s smoking?

Read the responses to this tweet, not a single person agrees with him!

Age and to many knocks to the head catching up with him I think!

TBF if you ever listen to his radio show or rugby commentary this kind of opinion isn't a surprise.

123456789. wrote:Can't say I was overly enamoured with the ref but I'm not sure he was against us any more so than he was Wales. Wales were phenomenal in the first half and we were really poor. In the second half they were worse than I've seen from them in a very long time. I do think we would have put a few tries on them in the Second half if we'd had Hogg, Jones and the rest of our more exciting players.
Grigg and Horne are quite blunt, Hastings was very, very good. I'd be tempted to see if we could get both him and Russell in the fifteen for next week, although it might be entirely necessary the way our boys are dropping like flies currently. Graham played better for us today than Seymour has done in years. Looking toward the world cup I think Hogg, Maitland and Graham are a more balanced unit. I thought Price played well until he ended up at the wing where he was pretty special and not in a good way but you can hardly blame him for that. I'd be very keen to have Horne, Russell, Maitland, Johnson, Jones, Graham and Hogg as our backline come September.
It makes a huge difference having Nel and Watson in our back. Bradbury looks to be our best bet at eight going forward, with Barclay, Ritchie and Watson battling it out to be on the flanks. There were points today when I felt like it was ten years ago. Aimless possession, occasional excitement when we're near the line but no end product. However it was a step up on the performances against Ireland and France. We have special players to come back and we seem to have recovered our backbone.

Agree with most of that numbers, but Price did not play well, either before or after he went to the wing. His passing was poor, he chose wrong options and committed brain farts resulting in penalties. He does not look as if he has the composure to be a true international SH unfortunately.

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:Also, has John Beattie completely lost the plot?

https://twitter.com/BBCJohnBeattie/status/1104409508774842368?s=19

Can I have some of what he’s smoking?

What the...?! Dark room and a quiet lie down for Mr Beattie, yeah he does talk push at the best of times but this is quite something!

https://twitter.com/MrDaveLewis/status/1104393927833079809

A good but very scrappy win for Wales. but like all their games so far they stook in and managed to pull off the win. Grand Slam now in sight for Wales, all depends on ireland next week.

Still do not think that Wales have hit their stride yet in this 6ns. i guess the big test will come next week. Can Wales old their nerve against Ireland? Can Ireland step up and dent Wales winning streak and stop Wales getting the last Grand Slam of the Gatland error?

Have to waite and see won't we?

BigGee wrote:

123456789. wrote:Can't say I was overly enamoured with the ref but I'm not sure he was against us any more so than he was Wales. Wales were phenomenal in the first half and we were really poor. In the second half they were worse than I've seen from them in a very long time. I do think we would have put a few tries on them in the Second half if we'd had Hogg, Jones and the rest of our more exciting players.
Grigg and Horne are quite blunt, Hastings was very, very good. I'd be tempted to see if we could get both him and Russell in the fifteen for next week, although it might be entirely necessary the way our boys are dropping like flies currently. Graham played better for us today than Seymour has done in years. Looking toward the world cup I think Hogg, Maitland and Graham are a more balanced unit. I thought Price played well until he ended up at the wing where he was pretty special and not in a good way but you can hardly blame him for that. I'd be very keen to have Horne, Russell, Maitland, Johnson, Jones, Graham and Hogg as our backline come September.
It makes a huge difference having Nel and Watson in our back. Bradbury looks to be our best bet at eight going forward, with Barclay, Ritchie and Watson battling it out to be on the flanks. There were points today when I felt like it was ten years ago. Aimless possession, occasional excitement when we're near the line but no end product. However it was a step up on the performances against Ireland and France. We have special players to come back and we seem to have recovered our backbone.

Agree with most of that numbers, but Price did not play well, either before or after he went to the wing. His passing was poor, he chose wrong options and committed brain farts resulting in penalties. He does not look as if he has the composure to be a true international SH unfortunately.

I think him and Hidalgo-Clyne are in something of a race to the bottom currently. I think Pyrgos and Horne might be our two best 9s currently. We have 5 good 9s; three of them are playing gash.

If Price starts next week then we definitely,without any doubt, get smashed. His box kicking was gash and he doesnt even break like he used to. What confidence he has must have been totally depleted after that performance. Laidlaw for all his flaws is an international class 9, Price isnt yet in that bracket.
Also can Johnny Gray please be sent on holiday? i know he stole a lineout in the second half but that was about the first noticeable thing he did in the match.Watson and Gray senior should start to at least give our pack a modicum of physicality. England's midfield will have an easy time against Horne and Gregg and we have to have some players, somewhere, who can go toe to toe with their pack. It certainly wont be JG or Strauss.

BlueNote wrote:Munkian,
It's more a question of underestimating the Scottish players (Seymour, Price, Dell...)

Rob Evans handed Nell's arse to him today, mad that we got fupp all out of it.

Was a great game but the ref was moments away from cracking out his bag pipes and joining in with the home crowd in the 2nd half.

Well he balanced things out then? As some might argue he had the red carpet out for Gat's lads in the first.

Both sides were pretty poor throughout. An entertaining game though. Scotland should have taken it in the second half, but didn’t have the composure. Ireland will have a lot more in attack hopefully.

We live in hope, yes. But first we have to negotiate the hope that Ireland can find a rhythm good enough to confront Wales in tomorrow's game against France. Up until now, it is Wales' game to lose.

sensisball wrote:If Price starts next week then we definitely,without any doubt, get smashed. His box kicking was gash and he doesnt even break like he used to. What confidence he has must have been totally depleted after that performance. Laidlaw for all his flaws is an international class 9,  Price isnt yet in that bracket.
Also can Johnny Gray please be sent on holiday? i know he stole a lineout in the second half but that was about the  first noticeable thing he did in the match.Watson and  Gray senior should start to at least give our pack a modicum of physicality.  England's midfield will have an easy time against Horne and Gregg and we have to  have some players, somewhere, who can go toe to toe with their pack. It certainly wont be JG or  Strauss.

I think we have to calm the hyperbole on the Price front; it wasn't all that long ago that he had completely usurped Laidlaw and looked to be our 9 for the foreseeable. His fall in form last season was dramatic. Him and Russell seemed to believe their hype and learnt otherwise against Wales last season in Cardiff. Whereas Russell was given time and arena to make up for his mistakes, Price was chucked out. He simply has not recovered.
At the moment we have five scrum-halves. Laidlaw is not over the hill yet. He is however very, very close to being so. I suspect he will retire, or will be retired following the world cup. Of the four we have left Pyrgos is the least naturally talented but the closest to Laidlaw in style. It may be that our players simply need to be marshalled by an authoritarian scrum half. Thing is Pyrgos will be thirty himself come September. If we're looking to the next world cup by then, Henry will be thirty-four. Only the very best players, Sean Lamont, make it to a world cup at that age. If Henry Pyrgos is not the answer now he won't be in four years time.
That leaves us with Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Ali Price and George Horne. The latter is by far the best, on form and on talent. He is the future at nine. But an international team needs two, ideally three scrum-halves. Hidalgo-Clyne needs to be brought back up to Scotland as soon as possible; he needs to be nurtured and looked after. I think that, long term, it might be best for Price to leave Glasgow. Maybe to Edinburgh, maybe elsewhere, but he needs a change. I think Hidalgo-Clyne would be a good fit at Glasgow. He is perhaps a bit more controlled than Horne but could still fit into the playing style.

Jonny Gray needs a change. I am not entirely sure he has dropped off too much. He still makes his tackles. But the role of a second row seems to have shifted in recent years. Has he developed his game to compete with the likes of Ryan, Jones, Itoje, Kruis etc.? Probably not. It's hard to think of what he needs to take the next step. In 2017, prior to the last Lions tour, I had Gray pencilled in ahead of Alun Wyn Jones. At the time, I thought he was the better player. With Gray the younger man and Jones the wrong side of thirty it seemed beyond belief that Jones would school Gray two years later.

BigGee wrote:Just watched the Scottish Press conference:

Toonie clearly very narked about the reffing and felt that Wales should have been carded for the penalties they gave away in their own 22 during the second half.

On another day, with another ref, that may have happened, but not today.

Even as a Scotland fan though, I can't say that is why we lost the game. We had our chances, whatever the reffing situation was and just did not take them.

Well I need to see it again when I get home, but I thought the ref was Scotland’s 16th man....don’t think he saw the Scottish infringements...

But won’t dwell on it as we won.

Have to step up the gears several times if we want to take the Slam.

Well done Scotland what a game

Very happy with a narrow hard d fought victory

I expected Gatland to mention the ref, not Townsend. Wow. I look forward to them testing the offside line further against England, now they know what they can get away with.

Imagine Gatland mentioned a ref in defeat. This site would blow up.

RiscaGame wrote:I expected Gatland to mention the ref, not Townsend. Wow. I look forward to them testing the offside line further against England, now they know what they can get away with.

Imagine Gatland mentioned a ref in defeat. This site would blow up.

Yupp

Ali Price is clearly a good bench player. There to inject pace and a bit less structure if necessary. He's looked better in the not too distant past than he did in this game, and has had some really good performances in my mind as well, but Laidlaw's a bit like Scotland's Stephen Jones. Not the most flashy. Perhaps a bit limited physical-wise. But reads/understands the game very, very well and has really good core skills - and the team looks poorer in his absence.

Never rated Pyrgos. Always seems a bit second-rate at test level. Wasn't he briefly made captain a while ago? Not sure he's the answer. SHK has dropped down to 4th choice at the Scarlets, behind a (talented) youngster in his first season of pro rugby, and fighting it out for 3rd choice with a solid Welsh clubman who's also been injured quite a lot. Also suffered with injuries but there must have been a reason why he was let go - though the Scarlets were getting a brilliant deal at the time when he signed, another Barclay potentially and a better alternative to Aled Davies. Do think he's got a lot more to come/untapped potential though, but doubt he's in contention for Japan.

miaow wrote:Ali Price is clearly a good bench player. There to inject pace and a bit less structure if necessary. He's looked better in the not too distant past than he did in this game, and has had some really good performances in my mind as well, but Laidlaw's a bit like Scotland's Stephen Jones. Not the most flashy. Perhaps a bit limited physical-wise. But reads/understands the game very, very well and has really good core skills - and the team looks poorer in his absence.

Never rated Pyrgos. Always seems a bit second-rate at test level. Wasn't he briefly made captain a while ago? Not sure he's the answer. SHK has dropped down to 4th choice at the Scarlets, behind a (talented) youngster in his first season of pro rugby, and fighting it out for 3rd choice with a solid Welsh clubman who's also been injured quite a lot. Also suffered with injuries but there must have been a reason why he was let go - though the Scarlets were getting a brilliant deal at the time when he signed, another Barclay potentially and a better alternative to Aled Davies. Do think he's got a lot more to come/untapped potential though, but doubt he's in contention for Japan.

I think the fact that Laidlaw is still considered first choice is more an example of the failings of our other options. SHC and Price have both, on different occasions, threatened to take the shirt off of him and neither could manage it. Yet it is harder to think of a scrum-half in European International rugby more ill suited to the Scottish style of play; if Price or SHC were up to level then they would have done it. With SHC there's no lack of talent, that much is abundantly clear. However it took him a long time to conclusively hold the Edinburgh starting berth. The intimation I've always heard is that he had an something of an attitude issue. I imagine more so he is a product of the environment he came into as a professional. For his first four years he played for a basket case and then he found himself on the wrong side of Richard Cockerill. He is in the latter part of a generation of Edinburgh players who should have formed the backbone of the national side and a decent Pro14 outfit but never quite pushed on. All of them appear "soft" in some way, the ones still at Edinburgh were given the boot or forced to change by Cockerill. Price is not as talented as SHC but was effective in keeping up a high tempo. But George Horne can do it better and more reliably than he can.

munkian wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I expected Gatland to mention the ref, not Townsend. Wow. I look forward to them testing the offside line further against England, now they know what they can get away with.

Imagine Gatland mentioned a ref in defeat. This site would blow up.

Yupp

I know right.

In all fairness most of the Scots on here and social media would rather discuss the rugby. There’s only one nationality on here and social media acting bitter and blaming the ref.

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I expected Gatland to mention the ref, not Townsend. Wow. I look forward to them testing the offside line further against England, now they know what they can get away with.

Imagine Gatland mentioned a ref in defeat. This site would blow up.

Yupp

I know right.

In all fairness most of the Scots on here and social media would rather discuss the rugby. There’s only one nationality on here and social media acting bitter and blaming the ref.

You're always in a difficult position when you lose - managers criticising the referee will always be accused of avoidance but at the same time, the result of a match doesn't suddenly render all officials as beyond reproach and above any comments about things which they might have got wrong. I think that the best you can say is that Townsend has the right to say what he likes and that he does not have a history of spraying invective around so I have no reason to believe that he is insincere. He certainly hasn't been disrespectful so I'm not sure what any fuss would be about.  

I think that if Gatland made similar comments, almost all Scots fans on these boards would shrug and say the same thing. This notion that Gatland is a victim of the press or unfairly treated by opposing fans doesn't seem to have any clearly identifiable or quantifiable basis. But then again, I don't really follow the swamp of madness that is social media.

Worth also saying that good referees will often own up to a mistake, either forced by media buzz or not. Luke Pearce apologised to Stuart Hogg for chalking off a try against Italy when he realised later the call he made was not correct. Good for him. That's how referees get respect in my eyes.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:Also, has John Beattie completely lost the plot?

https://twitter.com/BBCJohnBeattie/status/1104409508774842368?s=19

Can I have some of what he’s smoking?

What the...?! Dark room and a quiet lie down for Mr Beattie, yeah he does talk push at the best of times but this is quite something!

This wasn’t a bad performance, a lot of injuries to the back line not often you can win a game with so many players off that your starting scrum half ends up on the wing. There is a lot more to come from this Scots team. Still some quality players to come back in too.

You found a few lads who deserve caps too. Adam Hastings, Jamie Richie, Darcy Graham all look great.

That was a tougher game than two weeks ago

Trying to put as neautral a head as I can on it, Wales got away with things in the first half (first try forward pass, interesting breakdown interpretation), Scotland in the 2nd half (forward pass for try, incorrect high tackle call etc). Worth noting that after the game the pundits also mentioned these things.

As GC said Townsend doesn't really have a history of questioning the ref after a game so he really must have been riled up. I'm sure he'll reflect differently when he watches it back and sees that once again the players let themselves down.

I agree the referee and his assistance made a number of mistakes. But what Wally annoyed me was the amount of time the referee was in between the scrum half and first receiver. Several times I saw the scrumhalf telling the ref to move.

Good night in Edinburgh.Reflections on Wales and Hamish Watson:
1)Whatever Watson is on it should be mandatory in the British diet.
2)Wales won because Biggar can tackle and Hogg wasn't playing.
3)Gareth Davies cannot box-kick and Anscombe is not an international 10.
4)It was remarkable Wales won given the appalling farce over Welsh regional rugby last week.Unbelievable how the boys focused.
5)Navidi appears to be carrying an injury hampering his speed and mobility.
6)Sorry to hear Townsend join the Eddie Jones school of blame the officials.

I don't like to see post match moaning about the ref, that is twice we have done it during this tournament and it does not become us.

As others have said, neither Laidlaw nor Toonie has form for doing this kind of stuff.

I think what it shows is just how frustrating they have found this tournament, when Scotland after all their promise of the past few years, seem to have gone backwards. International rugby is not like the club game, when you can work on stuff week in week out and eventually get it right and we should not forget that Toonie is still not an experienced international coach. It is a hard game and a long one and sometimes all the planets have to align to get it right.

It has not all been bad though, we have brought in some youngsters, who probably would not have got the chance if everyone had been fit and they have proved themselves capable. We also hopefully still have some cavalry to come back into the team for the WC.

I don't have any great expectations for next weekend, England could be playing for a championship as well and won't have forgotten last year. I will settle for a good performance, I don't want to see us capitulate as we have done on the last match previously when we have nothing left to play for.

BigGee wrote:I don't like to see post match moaning about the ref, that is twice we have done it during this tournament and it does not become us.

As others have said, neither Laidlaw nor Toonie has form for doing this kind of stuff.

I think what it shows is just how frustrating they have found this tournament, when Scotland after all their promise of the past few years, seem to have gone backwards. International rugby is not like the club game, when you can work on stuff week in week out and eventually get it right and we should not forget that Toonie is still not an experienced international coach. It is a hard game and a long one and sometimes all the planets have to align to get it right.

It has not all been bad though, we have brought in some youngsters, who probably would not have got the chance if everyone had been fit and they have proved themselves capable. We also hopefully still have some cavalry to come back into the team for the WC.

I don't have any great expectations for next weekend, England could be playing for a championship as well and won't have forgotten last year. I will settle for a good performance, I don't want to see us capitulate as we have done on the last match previously when we have nothing left to play for.

Totally agree Gee, it is a shame to hear a coach or captain making off comments regarding the officiating. Refs are human just like players and make mistakes and they also all officiate in different ways. It was clear to me that Pascal Gauzere was not really in the mood to dish out cards, but I think he would have if Scotland had not messed up that final driving maul. He had warned Wales so next one was definitiely going to be a card, but it was successfully driven back by Wales and then Russell was guilty of not playing the refs whistle and booted possession away. The better sides would have scored from the previous mauls or setup the final one correctly and won the card or possible penalty try. There's the writing on the wall Townsend. Scotland did well they just lacked that final execution/accuracy (feel like i've written that a lot this 6N).

Just watched the Sam Warbuton documentary - it is well worth a watch for anybody in what has been a golden era for Welsh rugby. He's a real rugby gentleman and can certainly be regarded as one of the greats.

I have absolutely no shame in admitting a great deal of jealousy watching it too - since I started watching rugby properly in the late 90s Wales have had 3 Grand Slams and an additional championship win, and are odds on for another next weekend. They've had huge investment in Lions tours and have seen one of their own lead successful tours in 2013 and 2017.

By contrast as a Scotsman the only success we've been able to celebrate is winning the 5 Nations in 1999, and Glasgow winning the Pro 12 (and even then they're not my team). I've enjoyed Lions tours and fully got behind the team, but hand on heart haven't felt completely invested in them because so few Scotland players have been involved, even fewer so in the test teams. It's easy to say you don't care which nation the players are from when you've got lots of your nation there.

So basically what I'm saying is that days like yesterday and the Ireland and France games are so soul destroying as it points to yet another disappointing future - the last two years have given hope that Scotland have been developing players who actually might stand a chance of winning something, where we don't have to trot out the usual quotes about pride and giving their all after yet another defeat. The writing was on the wall in November and things have got worse in the 6N to the point that there stands a good chance that we won't get out of our world cup group, especially with the home nation putting all their focus on the final group game against us.

So Welsh fans - enjoy the moment and take nothing for granted as it is a truly special thing to have the success that you're experiencing!

Yes that really is all Scotland have in terms of success for major trophies. There are the one off Calcutta Cups and multiple wins over Australia as well, but it is a sparse trophy cabinet at SRU HQ.

I will blame injuries for this 6N. It has made a huge difference in the performances. The way Watson took the game to Wales was missing in the last 3 games. The loss of Barclay who is so good at poaching balls and not having Thomson available was a big blow too, he could have really added a bit of dynamism to the Scottish backrow in place of Strauss had he been able to have a run of games in the Autumn. The backline has just been a mess as well.

Vs Italy
9 Greig Laidlaw (Captain),
10 Finn Russell
11 Blair Kinghorn
12 Sam Johnson
13 Huw Jones
14 Tommy Seymour
15 Stuart Hogg

Vs Wales
9 Ali Price
10 Finn Russell
11 Darcy Graham
12 Pete Horne
13 Nick Grigg
14 Tommy Seymour
15 Blair Kinghorn

Too many changes due to injuries in my opinion and that is why we haven't been scoring try's. Form has been a problem too. It has just been a rotten tournament before we even criticise the actions on field.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47513614

Pretty much spot on.

It was incredibly disappointing to see the headline "Wales survive Scotland Scare". It feels at point like we are back ten years ago. Coming out of games feeling content that we'd thrown a punch. Issue is ten years ago Barack Obama was President, Brexit wasn't happening and Scottish independence was a pipe dream. I never thought I'd have to deal with Scotland being dreadful and politics being worse. It is not good for my mental health.
Part of me thinks we should put Hogg, Maitland, Jones, Johnson, Taylor, Russell, George Horne, Bradbury, Watson, Barclay, Gray jr, Gray sr, Nel, MacInally, Dell and all of our other half decent players into a 5* hotel and have them pampered and looked after until the World Cup. I honestly don't think I could cope with the prospect of us lining up for our biggest game of the last four years with Peter Horne at 12 (or even worse 10) and Nick Grigg at 13.

I will credit Scotland for their resilience. I actually thought we might get another try and pull a bit more clear, because they had to use their bench a bit earlier and I figured we would be fresher. In the end, we kind of looked like we were hanging on.

I think (hope) Wales will be better again in Cardiff next week.

It really has been a tournament to forget for us, especially after a promising start.

Anyway, we are certainly not going to believe any of our own hype going into the WC now. There is a project reset going on with Scottish expectations as well!

Too many injuries have killed any hope of a Six Nations Championship and it does not help that Townsend has not sorted out his selection policies. The choice of P Horne against France and Wales were short sighted moves. Laidlaw has been picked too often and, with the development of Russell, is best placed to be matched with Hastings as a baby sitter. Losing G Horne was a blow and Price needs to go work on his passing accuracy, but for now is a more suitable starter than Laidlaw.

Wales, France and Ireland are all games that realistically we could have won (not should have). There has been a failing in the tackle area and a weakness at the set piece. For all the sins of Wilson, every opponent hates playing him. I don't think that is true of our front five. The headline piece is we have learned how to lose and I was thinking that is a short term view, but some players like J Gray, Seymour, Z Fagerson, Hogg (to a lesser extent) and Kinghorn feel like guys who in the last 18 months have settled for what they are rather than developing. Russell and R Gray took risks going to France and look much better. Maitland went to Sarries and pushed on a bit. Visser learned to tackle at Quins. Hogg is now on his way to Exeter who hopefully won't let him settle. J Gray and Kinghorn might need that push if we don't demand more at our clubs. We have learned how to develop good club players such as Harley, Wilson, Swinson, Dell, Bennett, Pyrgos and McKenzie. Now we need to start developing star players like Sarries have managed for England and Leinster/Munster for Ireland.

Not sure what we can do for England other than rearranging the chairs on the Titanic as it were. G Graham in particular looks like a 6.5 in the mould of Barclay (6'2, 112kg according to Wiki). Ritchie or Fagerson can bench cover with Bradbury at 8. Bradbury in particular, should be told you are carrying 20 times in the first hour or you are not going to the world cup. Playing with Mata has rounded other parts of his game, but his carrying has been less aggressive as a result. It feels harsh to drop Ritchie, however Watson showed how dynamic he is and M Fagerson can more effectively cover 8. S Johnson deserves the 12 jersey back. Lord knows what the back three options are at this point. Skinner should bench but I don't see Tonnie changing any of his front five options.

Sadly, I think Scotland are going to get absolutely pumped against England next week. All the talk from the players before the tournament that this was the one they wanted to win - as revenge. EJ already coming out in the post match and talking this game up.

As it was, England planned most comprehensively for the Ireland game - and pretty much everything came off and they dominated them. I can't see the same against Scotland in terms of tactics: they're probably going to simply turn up and look to batter the f out of Scotland for 80 minutes. Let Scotland force the game from their own 22 - kick, kick, kick, smash.

If Scotland don't get it right they could be looking at having 50 points put on them. That's an indictment of the power disparity between the two teams; as good as Scotland can be, and as good as some elements of their game is, you can't compete without a platform and England will look to dominate them in that area. I honestly cannot see how Scotland can respond tbh. This will be the kind of game where you want the 'plucky and brave' of the last decade: just being able to front up, drag England into an arm wrestle etc.

I like the way Scotland play, I really liked Vern Cotter, but there's something fundamentally wrong with them. If Scotland are a bit like watching Wales under Steve Hansen they're in danger of becoming like wathing Wales under Gareth Jenkins - wanting to run the ball and trying to 'ignore' the fact you have to be good in all areas of the game. France are trying to play 40% rugby, Scotland more like 60% - neither works in this day and age. Wales are probably only 75-80% (poor running game at times, lineout is shocking) but what they prioritise wins them games: Scotland's flair is let down by the lack of platform and they have, have, have, have, have to address it. The second half showed there is power there - you need to make it mandatory for the tight 5/for the full 80 as well.

I hope it's all academic by the time England Scotland kicks off next week, but yeah...can't see anything but a hammering in Twickenham unfortunately. Genuinely, 45-55 points conceded.

miaow wrote:Sadly, I think Scotland are going to get absolutely pumped against England next week. All the talk from the players before the tournament that this was the one they wanted to win - as revenge. EJ already coming out in the post match and talking this game up.

As it was, England planned most comprehensively for the Ireland game - and pretty much everything came off and they dominated them. I can't see the same against Scotland in terms of tactics: they're probably going to simply turn up and look to batter the f out of Scotland for 80 minutes. Let Scotland force the game from their own 22 - kick, kick, kick, smash.

If Scotland don't get it right they could be looking at having 50 points put on them. That's an indictment of the power disparity between the two teams; as good as Scotland can be, and as good as some elements of their game is, you can't compete without a platform and England will look to dominate them in that area. I honestly cannot see how Scotland can respond tbh. This will be the kind of game where you want the 'plucky and brave' of the last decade: just being able to front up, drag England into an arm wrestle etc.

I like the way Scotland play, I really liked Vern Cotter, but there's something fundamentally wrong with them. If Scotland are a bit like watching Wales under Steve Hansen they're in danger of becoming like wathing Wales under Gareth Jenkins - wanting to run the ball and trying to 'ignore' the fact you have to be good in all areas of the game. France are trying to play 40% rugby, Scotland more like 60% - neither works in this day and age. Wales are probably only 75-80% (poor running game at times, lineout is shocking) but what they prioritise wins them games: Scotland's flair is let down by the lack of platform and they have, have, have, have, have to address it. The second half showed there is power there - you need to make it mandatory for the tight 5/for the full 80 as well.

I hope it's all academic by the time England Scotland kicks off next week, but yeah...can't see anything but a hammering in Twickenham unfortunately. Genuinely, 45-55 points conceded.

Hard to disagree with any of that really!

Its the old adage....win while playing badly. You can play champagne rugby and score as many tries as you like, the W is all that counts in this game.

miaow wrote:Sadly, I think Scotland are going to get absolutely pumped against England next week. All the talk from the players before the tournament that this was the one they wanted to win - as revenge. EJ already coming out in the post match and talking this game up.

As it was, England planned most comprehensively for the Ireland game - and pretty much everything came off and they dominated them. I can't see the same against Scotland in terms of tactics: they're probably going to simply turn up and look to batter the f out of Scotland for 80 minutes. Let Scotland force the game from their own 22 - kick, kick, kick, smash.

If Scotland don't get it right they could be looking at having 50 points put on them. That's an indictment of the power disparity between the two teams; as good as Scotland can be, and as good as some elements of their game is, you can't compete without a platform and England will look to dominate them in that area. I honestly cannot see how Scotland can respond tbh. This will be the kind of game where you want the 'plucky and brave' of the last decade: just being able to front up, drag England into an arm wrestle etc.

I like the way Scotland play, I really liked Vern Cotter, but there's something fundamentally wrong with them. If Scotland are a bit like watching Wales under Steve Hansen they're in danger of becoming like wathing Wales under Gareth Jenkins - wanting to run the ball and trying to 'ignore' the fact you have to be good in all areas of the game. France are trying to play 40% rugby, Scotland more like 60% - neither works in this day and age. Wales are probably only 75-80% (poor running game at times, lineout is shocking) but what they prioritise wins them games: Scotland's flair is let down by the lack of platform and they have, have, have, have, have to address it. The second half showed there is power there - you need to make it mandatory for the tight 5/for the full 80 as well.

I hope it's all academic by the time England Scotland kicks off next week, but yeah...can't see anything but a hammering in Twickenham unfortunately. Genuinely, 45-55 points conceded.

Hard to dispute. I think this will be the case I'm afraid.

WRU president Dennis Gethin and his SRU counterpart Dee Bradbury were able to hand over a cheque for £155,764.76 to the Doddie Weir charity to help end MND.

maestegmafia wrote: WRU president Dennis Gethin and his SRU counterpart Dee Bradbury were able to hand over a cheque for £155,764.76 to the Doddie Weir charity to help end MND.  

Great to hear.

In hindsight I'm glad we had to fight for the win in the 2nd half - we will certainly have learned a lot more than England and Ireland's easy run ins.

England came to us on a back of an easy victory over France, hoping for a similar performance from the Welsh players and crowd this weekend.